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Fantasy Author Robert Jordan Passes Away
willith writes "James Oliver Rigney Jr, author of the long-running fantasy series The Wheel of Time and better known to millions of fans by the pen name Robert Jordan, died on 16 Sept 2007 from cardiac amyloidosis. Jordan announced he had been diagnosed with the disease in March 2006 and vowed to beat the odds, but determination and gumption sometimes just aren't enough in the face of a disease with a median survival time of just over two years. Jordan was in the process of writing the twelfth and final book in the Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light, but the book was not slated for release until 2009 and is still incomplete. While there is hope that the book will still be finished from Jordan's notes, this is devastating news to all of us who have been reading the series since 1990."
Personally I hope they don't bother to put book 12 together, I stopped at 9.
There are thousands of people who have hung on for 17 years to reach the end of the tale, regardless of how much it had deteriorated in the later books. I have been unhappy with the most recent books myself, but I still wanted to find out what happens nonetheless. I probably speak for the majority of his readers in this. I'm saddened by his passing, and it would be even sadder if the story were never finished. It's almost certainly what he would have wanted.
I hope his notes at least reveal the outcome to whomever picks up the story. (Orson Scott Card, are you available?)
Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain - The Great Hunt
All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
I thought that he was finally getting back into form toward the end, especially the second half of #11. I'm sorry to see him go.
The Farewell Tour II
I've read a few interviews where he said that the ending had basically been written for years, so at least that's something. I hope they find someone to finish it. Despite losing a lot of focus in the middle it really has been a great series and was finally starting to look great again. It deserves an ending even if someone else has to fill in the gaps.
The Farewell Tour II
Agreed, however I would at least like to see the answer to a few questions that were supposed to be resolved. Closure (and not closure someone else made up - what he actually intended from notes) is better than no closure even if it is obvious where the new author picks up. If he was on schedule then he I would think that he should have had a good deal of it done (a 2009 release date is fairly soon, it's not like one typically writes a 1000+ page book and go through editing/printing in a year), though I have no idea if he was anywhere close to on schedule.
If it is just another author filling in the gaps and answering - me I'll read it at least for the parts that he wrote. However the other stuff I'll just pick my own conclusion and assume it is as much cannon as what is in the book. This is why I tend to not read large multi-volume stories until they are done, I have read some where they just end right in the middle.
It feels kinda crass to feel that sorta thing about some guys death, but if he is like any other artist I would bet he is happy that many people are disappointed that they didn't get to see the end of his works. Especially given the scope and amount of time he put into the series.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
IIRC you are correct about the WOT being a trilogy.
Jordan's passing is all the more disheartening for this. He could have been an epic figure in fantasy lit, but he gave in to the marketing drones.
I absolutely loved the series until the last chapters of book three. His legacy is fucked now. The later books in the WOT series are as unreadable as his work on the Conan series.
Anyhow... RIP Jordan. You wrote more good lit than I ever did, even if the good material was the vast minority of your output.
Did you just say that the writer dying is a blessing? How fucking offensive, especially to those of us who were as close to him in the end as we possibly could be as fans. I hope the death of no-one you care about is called a fucking blessing.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
Welcome to the internet, where nothing is sacred. Try not to let it bother you.
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
People keep going on about how slow and long this series was, however it has been an inspiration to me and reminds me very much of the great George R. R. Martin series, A Song of Ice and Fire, which I've only just started reading. The only book I was dissapointed in was Crossroads of Twilight. In serial work not every issue can be a home run. Sometimes you need to make one be a sacrifice to set up the next issues which makes them even better. As a good storyteller, Robert Jordan realized this. Those that want EVERY thing to be issue, episode, whatever to be the BEST one there is, will of course not like this but I have a hard time thinking of any long pieces of serial work that they'll enjoy.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
I love this classic argument. Anyone who's never made a successful movie can never say Uwe Boll movies are crap. Anyone who's never been Miss Missouri can never say that chick gave an air-headed response. Anyone who's never written a #1 best-selling book can never say the Wheel of Time series is tedious.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Although some of the comments here have been fairly tasteless (what do you expect on the Internet) I think it is fair time to reflect on an author's works.
Obviously and unsurprisingly the Wheel of Time series dominates our impression of Mr Jordan. I'll start with saying that stand alone the first book is one of the best fantasy fiction books out there as far as I am concerned. I found the style and story imaginative and compelling, which is difficult to do in a heavily cliched genre.
However, like many others I went along for the ride with the rest of the series up until a point where I became frustrated with the author and I personally gave up at about book 9 though I had effectively given up on the series a couple of books before that.
I don't really know what Jordan's rationale for the length of this series was, I'm not a fanboy and don't follow any of the WoT forums for any insight into this, maybe I will do one day. I generally assume that he felt he had a story to tell and as far as he was concerned if it took many books to tell it - he would do so.
The lessons of the 'Wheel of time' series are that you need to bring all your readers with you, and that the value of literature isn't in the weight of paper. Readers are frankly puzzled that after 4 to 5 thousand pages why Jordan left his main characters in stasis whilst opening up new plots and new characters in the later books. The publisher and editors have a responsibility to help authors in this regard even if it causes tension. I'm left wondering if Jordan had a more focussed approach he would have been the top fantasy writer of his generation, but now I suspect he will be remembered as a curiousity.
RIP Robert Jordan
That's a pretty rough criticism of a man who wrote a story that would humble Tolkien himself.
I doubt it. Tolkien knew how to tell a story. In particular he knew that not everything that he ever envisioned happening on the face on the face of middle earth should be puked out into the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Tolkien could let characters like Gandalf go off on side quests without covering every detail. We only knew Gandalf was rescued by the eagles - that's about all that's in the book. Jordon would have taken us on that flight. We know he found his way back to Rivendell; Jordon would have taken us on that walk. At one point Sam is cooking some rabbits he caught - Jordon would have made damned sure we knew exactly how and where they were caught. And gollum? Jordon would have been sure to cover everything he did too... from leaving the mountains, to being captured and tortured, to his release, and tracked him all the way back to Moria. When the sword that was broken was remade, we didn't have half a book dedicated to the tale, nor the tale of its delivery.
Tolkien's world is famous because of its immense depth and detail. Lord of the Rings is good writing because while you get a sense of all the depth and detail, its history, and its complexity. Very little of it is actually in the book; you know its there because you can see its 'edges'; but Tolkien didn't try to tell EVERYBODY'S story. He knew better.
Consider that Tolkien had the fellowship break up. He elected to chase essentially 3 paths, not ALL of them. We could have had books dedicated to what Gandalf was doing, we could have followed Boromir's boat over the falls and into the hand's Faramir, and followed Faramir from there. We could have followed Wormtongue after he was cast out of Theoden's throne room back to Isendgard, or followed the Ents after they were roused... but we didn't.
And had we done so, it would not have improved the book.
At the other end of good 'epic' writing is the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov. Its the complete opposite of Tolkien - Asimov tells the story of the galactic empire seen through shifting perspectives at critical turning points. The effect works. You see Seldon's vision unfold, and though the vignettes are character driven and you connect with the characters, at the end of each vignette you see the big picture take another step forward.
While it may be difficult to follow the individual plots of dozens of major and semi-major characters, that is a shortcoming of the readers mind and not the author.
What is the Wheel of Time about exactly? Its not really about anything because its about everything. And its not about everything because its spends to much time focused on the minutia of individuals. It tries to paint a forest by telling you the story of every tree. And in the end you have neither a good sense of the forest, nor any decent connection to any particular trees.
That's not the failure of the reader, that's a failure of the author. Because its a poor way to tell a story.
Unless you prefer to measure quality, not kilograms.
Card is an author that started out great and somewhere decided to market to the lowest-common denominator and churn out endless sequels. It was certainly that way with the Alvin Maker series. Red Prophet is one of the finest fantasy books I've ever read, but all home that the Alvin Maker series would continue at such a high level were dashed when Alvin Journeyman came out, and it only got worse from there. Perhaps Card's turn for the worst happened around 1994-1995 when he was at work on both Alvin Journeyman, the last Homecoming book, and the fourth Ender novel, all of which were very disappointing. Now, this author who started out making real contributions to science fiction as legitimate literature is just an airport paperback writer.
Similarly, Jordan started out very fine, but around the fourth book of The Wheel of Time, when the series really took off and every high-schooler was reading it, he started to meander and stretch things out. One does wonder if Tor, the publisher of both Card and Jordan, put any pressure on them to produce unnecessarily long material.
Hundreds or thousands of decent people died in the last 24 hours. If *you* have had enough of an effect on the the world that random nerds care enough about you to make a reference to your legacy, count yourself lucky.
Robert Jordan wrote some great books. Then he turned 1 great book into 4 shitty ones, and unfortunately died before the end. Sucks. But if you can't laugh about shit, what's the point?
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Speaking as a writer, I would have no objections to someone making the same comment as the grandparent about me, after my death. It's funny, and if you can't take a joke at your own expense then being dead is the least of your worries. The 'give the family time to grieve' argument doesn't make much sense. This is Slashdot. If members of the family read this site, they will know what kind of comment to expect, and delay reading it for a bit if they think it will upset them.
The most depressing funeral I have been to was that of a close friend of mine, where a large number of people who barely knew him stood up and spouted meaningless platitudes about what a great guy he was, many of them untrue. I would much rather have someone put some effort into a witty insult at my funeral than spout meaningless praise.
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Tolkien knew how to tell a story.
Well, to be more accurate, Tolkien knew how to construct a plot. As far as actually "telling a story", the man pretty much stunk up the page. His prose is so dry and boring and hard to read that I've never been able to finish the books. I know I'm not alone in finding his writing unbearable.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Respect for the dead is not inteaded to comfort the dead, it is to comfort the living left behind.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
As the series progresses, the books get progressively slower up until book 11, when he starts really wrapping things up substantially. You could probably completely skip book 10 and not even notice it; at least book 9 something happened in the plot, even if it wasn't very much. Been a while since I read them, but I think the only significant plot advancement in book 10 was the rescue of someone (saving names so I don't spoil anything) from some Aiel, whose capture had happened somewhere in book 9. Their capture itself was not a significant plot element, and so far as I can tell has no outcome on the entire series other than to have given one of the major characters something to work on for book 10, which is good, because it's the only thing that happened.
Like I said, it's been a while since I read that book, and it could be that I'm missing something, after so many books over so many years (and many re-readings of them, including most recently listening to them as audio books), what happens in which book gets blurry.
I'm not trying to knock the series, just saying he seemed like he was stretching it out. I still think of the series fondly for all of that. I was eagerly awaiting the 12th book, and I do sincerely hope that a ghost writer is able to finish it. It's fairly epic, but the series would have been even better as 9 books.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
If all critical remarks should have been withheld until at least a week after his death, then where would they be expressed? This thread will be well over by then. Is Slashdot planning to start a new thread in a week or so? (And how could they announce it, if that itself might be taken as critical? "{Please hold all negative comments about Mr. Jordan for next week, when Slashdot will re-open the thread." Oooh! that sounds pretty critical, implying that not everyone has a high opinion of Robert Jordan's works!). So, we're in a thread where some people can post their opinion, free from any criticism, because criticism of each other's posts becomes criticism of the deceased? Handy for one side!
And seriously, the attempt to stifle one poster you're referring to (by resorting to negative personal comments) was not just illogical, it was mean spirited, petty, and vindictive. For a moment, it made me personally think less of Mr. Jordan, that he was attracting the sort of fans who would stoop so low. You resorted to the same technique by labeling people hyperactive. Apparently, there is an ad hominem fallacy in your argument for decency, so excuse me if I don't just take your word that the previousl referenced post was free of them.
That part of the thread where you joined in doesn't just concern Mr. Jordan, although I grant he's certainly central to it. By the time you posted, there was also a living person who was being insulted and abused. Your defense of this act shows you may think well of the dead, but have less respect for the living.
Now I'm going to have to read at least one of the WoT series. To do otherwise would be to commit a logical fallacy myself and judge the man by the quality of his fans.
Who is John Cabal?
Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time?!? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time!?!?!?
You have got to be kidding (or on some extremely high-quality intoxicants). If Tolkien had the patience to finish TWoT, humility wouldn't be the emotion he'd feel. Annoyance, probably. Disgust, possibly. Pity, very likely. Here's a comparison of the two writers:
Tolkien- invented roughly two dozen different languages, with free borrowings from one another and a historical development of language and dialects over time
- invented the history of a world on a grand scale from its very beginning
- wrote some detailed stories covering very small periods within the above
- finished each individual story
- could write
JordanI too enjoyed the first several Jordan books. I was in grade school when they came out. I'm nearly thirty now.
I will grant that Tolkien was actually humble despite his great talents and that Jordan was proud despite rather limited ones.
I've read a few interviews where he said that the ending had basically been written for years...
My friends who read the WoT series and I always had a theory that he'd written the ending years ago, and that in some strange, literary mockery of Zeno's Paradox, he just wrote the plot half-way there each time he churned out a new book.
It certainly seemed like some sort of plot time-dilation was happening in the last few books by their accounts.
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I think your perception on where the WoT series moved during the fourth book is a little misinformed. The pacing of the series was based on the premise that it might only make it for three volumes, but if it remained popular it would be expanded to twelve. If the last nine were never made, the first three would need to stand on their own somewhat. In other words, what you're interpreting as a breakdown was really part of the plan from the beginning. I suppose that probably did have a lot to do with pressure from TOR, but if Jordan's own words could be believed, the more involved (and therefore lengthy) style was his style of choice.
Personally, I am one of those people who criticized this from the sidelines for years, reading bits and pieces and making high-handed declarations about how it was "just another fantasy series" unremarkable, and needlessly wordy. But most of that changed about three years ago when I actually sat down to give it a fair evaluation. People who think this is unnecessarily long would probably say the same thing about Tolkien, and I just can't agree with them. None of the description is superfluous. Jordan doesn't write filler to beef up his page count, his stories are simply that involved and complex, and reading them is a very rewarding experience. This series, finished or not, will always find a place of honor on my bookshelves.
As far as Card goes, I'm 100% in agreement with you. I can't tell where Card went wrong, however - whether his early writing was from the heart and took a downturn when he tried to be a crowd pleaser later on, or whether his best work was done when he was trying to be a crowd pleaser and his work deteriorates when he's left to his own devices (like the Wachowski Brothers).
At any rate, I know that Card was a fan of Jordan's work, and though I don't care much for Card's more recent work, I wouldn't expect he would ghostwrite in his own style, or embellish from his own imagination. He would probably handle the story with the utmost respect and care, and although fans would swear blind that they could tell the difference, Jordan himself probably couldn't were he alive.