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Firefox Working to Fix Memory Leaks
Christopher Blanc writes "Many Mozilla community members, including both volunteers and Mozilla Corporation employees, have been
helping to reduce Firefox's memory usage and fix memory leak bugs lately. Hopefully, the result of this effort will be that Firefox 3 uses less memory than Firefox 2 did, especially after it has been used for several hours." Here's hoping. Frequent restarts of things on my computer make me furious. I can't imagine why anyone would tolerate such things.
Too many apps nowadays just throw out RAM like it was yesterdays newspaper! It is sloppy coding, and I'm tired of having to put 2GB of RAM into a system just to surf the net nowadays.
Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
I don't mind the memory. I have plenty of gigs even in my laptop. What I mind is the general slowness that I experience with Firefox, and that makes me use Opera on my laptop even though I would feel better using an open source browser.
c++;
Nobody forces you to use Firefox. You can use Opera, Konqueror, links or IE, or any other browser out there...
You know they messed up bigtime when people would opt to go back to IE.
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
I can't imagine why anyone would tolerate such things.
Well, my guess is that you *are* tolerating it, as are millions of others, simply because you're using it (either older versions of IE, or current versions of Firefox). Can't comment on IE7 cause I don't use it much, but IE6 rarely crashed for me. IE3-5.5, almost daily crashes.
5 years ago people people would constantly belittle IE users because it had frequent crashes, and pointed to the 'superior' Mozilla suite. Today, FF has morphed in to something which can't be used, with plugins, for more than a couple days max without needing to be reset. I add the caveat in there about 'with plugins' because I'm not sure I know many people who run a bare-metal Firefox. Most people use one or more extensions. This has been a huge marketing push for FF - "It's lean! Only use what you need! Get rid of 'bloat' - package everything in extensions!"
Putting things in extensions makes the base 'leaner' but has lead to a situation where there's no centralized testing for, or even acknowledgement of, memory leak bugs (and other bugs, but this is the obvious one). I still read comments from people who claim they never have leaks with FF (we'll see some on this thread no doubt). It's not that I don't believe them, but their usage patterns are likely different from mine. I have about 6 plugins that I love to use, and I like to keep my browser going. The idea that MSIE is more "stable" than FF for daily usage should remind people that resting on your laurels is not an option. What cut the mustard 5 years ago isn't gonna cut it any more.
creation science book
There are very few "things that require a lot of memory", really. Most of the "things" you do in programming are tradeoffs, often between complexity of implementation, speed and memory requirements. There are usually off the shelf algorithms for each approach. Simplest solutions are often the most inefficient ones.
There is no reason why a minimal web browser could not be implemented, utilizing something like ~100kb of memory, in fact, i have seen the code to one. However, it wont be a) fast b) portable c) full featured d) very easy to understand
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
I can certainly understand why people are tired of FF memory leaks. Being a FF user myself, with open browser windows and multiple tabs all through the day, I have seen what happens to FF after 4-5 hours of intense browsing. And don't even get me started on the PDF and Flash plugins!
Some would argue that the problem is sloppy coding, or poor encapsulation (a typical OO programmers point of view). But please remember, that even though modern browsers are GUI apps, they are coded much like low-level server processes or protocol stacks. Low-level programming using languages like C and C++ gives you more control and better performance, but at the expense of nicer development features like garbage collection and encapsulation.
Think about it. Would you accept a browser that rendered HTML flawlessly and with absolutely no memory leaks, but took more than a minute to render each page? I think not.
It's an act of balance, and the problem is not _always_ "sloppy coding". It is the increasing complexity of these apps, combined with user demands which push the development towards low-level development languages. From a realistic point of view, any app. written in low-level C with as many lines of codes as FF, is bound to have bugs and leaks. (perhaps except code controlling nuclear reactors and NASA satellites, but then the price of each line of code is also somewhat different).
We - the end users - are not without blame.
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Or perhaps they're too busy thinking about clearly-defined objects, robust interfaces, clean documentation and the "big picture" then to worry about moving individual bytes around.
Likewise, I don't trust any artist using Flash today. They should clearly know how to code, in assembly, animation and transitions. Use of a timeline is for losers. The creative process should always be sacrificed for knowing the code inside out.
5 years ago people people would constantly belittle IE users because it had frequent crashes, and pointed to the 'superior' Mozilla suite. Today, FF has morphed in to something which can't be used, with plugins, for more than a couple days max without needing to be reset. Reality check: Most general users do not leave their browsers open for a couple days. Let alone a couple days max. In fact, I wager that most turn their computers off at the end of the day.
No I don't have a source for my statement. But ask people you know who are not in the tech industry. The one outlier group is Mac users, who don't realize that closing a browser window doesn't take the program out of memory.
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
C/C++ and similar languages, on the other hand, force the programmers to manage their resources. In those cases, the programmers would likely be just not designing their programs well, or employing bad resource management. Yes, managing resources can be hard - one project I worked on had to go through several months of testing to get the resources properly managed, and even then some of the resources were still a little uncontrollable due to legacy code or Windows APIs, but overall the thing was pretty stable and any memory leaks were mostly due to Windows APIs.
In either case, I can't tell you how many times I have heard (especially from Java programmers) something along the lines of the following: "RAM is cheap", "processors are getting faster", "computers will be ready for this when we deliver it", "hardware is cheaper than programmers"
No offense, but to rely on hardware always being getting faster, or the cost of adding more RAM always being cheaper, etc. is a bad premise to rely on. Already with multi-core processors we are seeing slower processors being combined into a single processor get the equivalent processing power of a faster processor (e.g. two 1.8 Ghz cores rated equally to a single 3 Ghz core); thus the premise breaks down. Also, I want to be able to do more with the faster processors and additional RAM, rather than simply do the same job I could do yesterday only in "better" software.
The real answer is doing your job right, and using the right tool - which is not necessarily the easiest tool to use either. We also need to get back to writing applications that have good, if not great, performance with minimal resource requirements (e.g. RAM and processor). If we're not going this at the API/library level - at the very least - then the programs and library/APIs that rely on that API/library level will have worse performance no matter what they do. But in either case it doesn't get done unless the programmers do their job, and use tools that allow them to do it.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
Or perhaps they're too busy thinking about clearly-defined objects, robust interfaces, clean documentation and the "big picture" then to worry about moving individual bytes around.
Actually, I'd say they're not busy enough- if they actually had been, proper memory management should simply fall into place on top of a clean architecture. If you're trying to shoehorn memory management back into something that didn't support it before, you're going to have issues- and this applies whether you're doing c/c++ style management, reference counting, or garbage collecting.
The ringing of the division bell has begun... -PF
A computer, by definition, 'moves bytes around'. One might argue that this is the job of the computer (or language or VM or whatever) and not programmer but if you don't understand how / why and when the bytes are moved around then you are a poorer programmer for it.
C++ yields superior performance and memory usage, than higher level languages, in the hands of a skilled C++ programmer and it can lead to bloatware in the hands of a novice.
There is this old saying about blaming your tools for a poor job and it applies to software development too.
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Your argument is nonsense. If what you said held true, large scale applications should be able to be written is assembler. Without high level tools it wouldn't be feasible to create applications the scale we do today.
Wrong. What he is saying is that people who choose to use C/C++ for their applications should be competent enough to properly handle their own allocation and de-allocation of memory. If your abilities as a programmer preclude you from properly managing your application's memory then you need to look at alternatives that will take care of that for you.
There are plenty of languages out there that offer things like garbage collection. Developers need to make better choices about which tools they use to meet their needs, and also understand their limitations and work within those parameters.
dude.
1. Custom malloc/free implementation. (Yes, custom - not from libc.)
2. C++ new/delete operators, which for all I know may be overridden to use their malloc/free.
3. One of the first two with reference counting to decide when to free/delete.
4. JavaScript mark-and-sweep GC.
Dealing with this causes some truly insane hacks, like the absolutely insane DOM C++/JavaScript implementation. (They're C++ objects, exposed as JavaScript objects, using something that's like XPCOM but isn't due to the overhead XPCOM imposes. I really don't understand it.)
Ultimately, though, it's worse than all that. All this crap leaves the code completely opaque, and actively prevents contributors from contributing code without having to learn an insane amount of infrastructure decisions.
It makes a project that's supposed to be open source effectively closed off to only the "official" developers: almost open source in name only.
Statements like this are why I prefer Java programs to C ones. Mandatory bounds checking means that no macho idiot can turn it off, no matter how full of hubris he is. But even assuming a 100% perfect coder, does it really make sense to use his precious time to worry about memory management when the computer can do that automagically ?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Likewise, I don't trust any artist using Flash today.
That's a good instinct. Never trust anyone using Flash.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I am not sure where you think C++ Programmers are more careful the Other Higher language programmers. A lot of C++ Programmers are really not that good the only reason they use C++ because they had to take it part of their college requirements, thus being the only language they know. Problem with C++ is the fact programming memory is so intensive that most people will be willing to let it leak because of all the extra work it will take to clean it up. They program in C++ not because it is the best tool for the job but the one they know the best. I have seen cases where C++ Project get killed because they take way to long to write and more to debug, while Python, VB or Java Programmers seem to get the job done. Most projects are not Open Source, Most programming is actually just custom program for businesses so these programmers are paid by the hour.
I Agree with you the Duel Cores are not equal to systems with twice the GigaHertz and the singlecore twice as fast system normally will out preform the application written. But that isn't about C++ Program or Java Programming, It is about Multi-Threaded programming. Parallel processing is a different form of programming that most programmers shy away from. But still the fact if you are paying a programmer $20 and hour and it takes them twice as long to get a 10% increase in speed it would be better off buying extra RAM then paying the programmer.
Now if you are getting a boxed application that is different because the cost of application development programming is spread across all the people who buy it. So by Doubling the price of the Shrink Wrapped App. say from $80 to $160 and everyone gets a 10% increase in speed then it is worth it to put the extra in and get it more optimized, the degree of benefit will outweigh the costs.
The thing that usually gets me like comments like this parent it assumes a completely Academic Computer Science approach to all problems. While real life requires making trade offs and sacrificing performance is often a good trade off to make because most of the time it is unnoticeable, most computers spend most of their time idle anyways, and most application are idle waiting for inputs. So in the once in a while heavy processing moment say in this case an HTML Render adding 1 second to the load in real life most people wont notice unless they are going back and forward button crazy. Or doing a batch rendering job. As for memory I am surprised that you didn't bring up the large quanity of 32bit systems still out there being sold as new only handling a max of 4 GB or RAM so for a large population RAM limits are an issue again.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Precisely. A skilled craftsman does not blame the tools. A skilled craftsman does the job right, and if it cannot be done right with the tools at hand, he/she goes and gets tools that are appropriate for the job.
Poor programming is possible in any language, and garbage-collected languages are no exception. I would also caution that garbage-collected languages tend to encourage more novice programmers because of the apparent ease of use (it isn't really easier). This results in a larger number of poorly-written apps by people who think they know how to write software. Taking away the need to explicitly manage memory just encourages lazy programmers who can always find something else to be sloppy about.
As for garbage collection making this sort of thing magically go away, that simply isn't the case. Working around garbage collection with things like "soft references" is a disgusting hack and is actually far harder than simply doing explicit memory management in the first place. Anyone who says differently has never had to manage any complex data structures that reference each other in non-trivial ways. The alternative is to basically write your own code that explicitly walks the data structure, deleting circular references, etc. If you're going to that much trouble, you are doing just as much work as you would for explicit memory management, but without the performance benefits from actually being able to destroy the objects immediately, and thus garbage collection is just hurting performance without providing any real benefit.
Basically, apart from the really trivial cases (most of which could be solved just as easily by simply creating a stack-local auto-destroy variant of malloc), garbage collection causes more problems than it solves. In my book, garbage collection in programming language ranks right up there with multiple inheritance as one of the worst ideas ever conceived.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
You realize, of course, you are seriously going against Slashdot groupthink here. Still, if I had mod points, I'd give you one. Macho programmers who think they are too awesomely skillful to screw up are the ones whose screwups always take me the most time to chase down.
Frankly if you can't look at a problem and then pull out five or six languages from your tool belt and evaluate which will be the best for this job, then you are a bad programmer. Don't code in C++ that which could easily be done in Python. Don't code in Python that which could easily be done in Bash. If you don't have a compelling argument for using C, DON'T USE IT!
Sometimes I think Java is awful for no other reason than companies tend to believe that using one language for other is a net gain. That has never been my experience except when your very best programmers aren't all that good either. If you insist that everything run on the Java runtime, use Jython and embed Python. A good example of multi-language gains can be seen with embedded Lua. There are many applications out there that use Lua "under the covers" so that things that do not have to be written in C++ aren't. This includes games (I believe WoW is one).
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
While I agree with this sentiment on principle, in practice this has proven to yield unworkable solutions. Different people bring different skillsets to the table. You may have a dozen developers who all have C++ in common, but to varying degrees. One may be more skilled in Perl, another in smalltalk, another in Python, and three more in Java. Divvy up the specs and tell each one to "Write your code using the best tool for the job." Then spend another year trying to integrate the pieces, and when they quit try to hire someone who can maintain the hydra.
Picking a single language for a project (at least at the component level) is pretty much a requirement.
Even though they try to hand-wave it away, this has been a big problem in the Microsoft .NET world. When it was introduced, Microsoft promised that all .NET languages were equal, first-class languages (my interpretation at the time was that C# programmers were instantly demoted to VB programmers :-( ) and that a developer could write in whichever .NET language they were most comfortable. But there are C# programmers and VB.NET programmers who don't really speak each other's language, even though they all compile down to the same MSIL. Trying to get them to maintain each others code leads to a lot of squabbling.
It's easy to say "A good programmer can write in any of these languages" but in reality it's much harder to find a lot of good programmers that are both willing and able to competently do maintenance in all of the languages you might end up with.
John