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Replacing a Thinkpad?

Posted by kdawson on from the swimming-against-the-race-to-the-bottom dept.

An anonymous reader writes "As a very happy Thinkpad T20 user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another Thinkpad T-series. However, Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company, and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in China... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?"

39 of 902 comments (clear)

  1. Yes, you're being silly by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Where exactly do you think the other laptop manufacturers make their gear? A hint: "Designed in California, Made in China", and that is just one of the favourites around here on slashdot.

    1. Re:Yes, you're being silly by smtrembl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, yes, but ALL the money, at least in this case, goes to china. IBM also sold their designs, wich where very good, but I doubt lenovo keeps them for long, or know how to make them evolve like IBM did!

    2. Re:Yes, you're being silly by p0tat03 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Standing up for one's moral convictions is now silly? How far we've fallen...

    3. Re:Yes, you're being silly by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do not misunderstand me... I find it great that he does that. However, I fear, he's going to have to stick to his current laptop. There is no was to get a computer that isn't manufactured at least partially in China.

    4. Re:Yes, you're being silly by p0tat03 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, though he can certainly minimize the dollar count going to China. Buying Lenovo would be giving every single dollar of the purchase to a Chinese company (though how they are directly related to the atrocities there... I'd never know), whereas buying, say, Dell, would only be giving manufacturing costs, while R&D remains here.

      As a Chinese-Canadian I'm glad there are people who, at the very least, are willing to think along this guy's lines. There are awful, horrifying things going on in that country and it's nice to see some people who aren't so American-centric they can't point out China on a map, much less the atrocities being committed there.

      As a side note... From my experience, more Americans know about these atrocities than Chinese. It's depressing, really. It's also depressing the number of new Chinese immigrants who are totally blown away by Canada's democratic government, since they thought (or were taught) that they had democracy all along.

    5. Re:Yes, you're being silly by bwalling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you think the factory workers, or even the management at Lenovo have anything to do with China's military decisions? The US has a behavioral problem as well, do you think that world consumers should punish the people of the US economically because of it? When you boycott an entire country, keep in mind that the employees of the companies are people just like you who are working for a living. "China" is not some collection of a billion evil people shooting at monks - it's a country full of good people working to feed themselves and take care of their families.

    6. Re:Yes, you're being silly by king-manic · · Score: 4, Insightful



      One the truly puzzling things about most Chinese that I meet is there bottomless capacity to defend the snake of a government they have - even the ones that have already immigrated away. I find that the upper-middle class tends to be the worst - the ridiculously rich are too educated to fall for the government's lies, while the poorest suffer too much to believe anything the government says. It's the people who fall down the middle that actually believe the things the government teaches them.

      I've known many Chinese who admit their government's deficiencies, and admit that officials are almost always corrupt and self-serving. But for some reason they still declare their allegiance to the government, claiming that as a Chinese by blood they cannot possibly turn away from the Chinese government. This puzzles me greatly, since I've long ago refused to consider myself a supporter of anything BUT a Western democracy - if the government is shooting your kind by the hundreds, is corrupt, etc etc, what kind of loyalty do you owe to them? It seems very ego-driven, and amounts to stubborn refusal to admit that perhaps the West has a better sociopolitical system.

      In a sick way, it's like Stockholm syndrome... a whole race of people who are culturally conditioned to remain loyal to their government, despite the innumerable atrocities that are committed against them in front of their own eyes.

      As another side note... it's depressing the "history" they learn in their schools...


      It's not just a Chinese thing. Everybody will carry some portion of the place they grew up with them. It's part of who they are and they are part of that too. So when you attack someones homeland it's partially an attack on them (or so they perceive). Unless the party that is being attacked hurt them directly they will usually try to defend or justify it.

      It's not just countries but any affiliation. The foaming at the mouth republicans and democrats who defend their side against all logic. The Reform, NDP, Bloc, Liberal supporters here in Canada who will rationalize everything about their party. It's not the nature of just Chinese people. It's people as a whole will defend what ever they have some investment in. China does horrible things but the odds of you getting caught up in one of those things are small. Just as Canada and the US have done some pretty bad things but by and large most people been a part of that. Forced sterilization, internment camps, gitmo, Arar, Chinese head tax, residential schools, successful native American genocide, etc.. The difference is after the fact we can talk about it while in china talking about it too publically will often get you in toruble.

      Thus Chinese aren't unique in lamenting that they don't really have a democracy but will say it isn't that bad. Which for a large majority of Chinese is true. The current Gov is better then any china has ever had. But the bar isn't as high as the West.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    7. Re:Yes, you're being silly by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Standing up for one's moral convictions is now silly?

      - If they're silly morals, then yes.
      - If "standing up" means doing something that makes you feel good, hurts people who weren't involved, and has no affect on the people who were involved, then yes.
      - If you need to announce on a web site how virtuous you are for your so-called morals, then yes.
      - If you don't care when people do bad things, but you pretend to care when the news media tells you to care, then yes.

      In other words, it seems like you have "standing up for one's moral convictions" confused with shallow media-influenced groupthink, politics, hand wringing, feel-good symbolism, and public self-congratulation.

      This is the modern substitute for morals and values that doesn't require actually believing in anything or making any hard choices -- just follow the crowd and say the words the press tells you to say.

    8. Re:Yes, you're being silly by alienw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you have so much trouble understanding this stuff, then just look at the US. How many people voted to re-elect Bush, even after seeing how incompetent he was? You don't think it's the same phenomenon?

    9. Re:Yes, you're being silly by mike260 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And ignore IBM's role in the Holocaust?

    10. Re:Yes, you're being silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The first line of the text you linked to reads, "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this section are disputed." and yet someone saw fit to mark this post as "Insightful".

      Amazing.

    11. Re:Yes, you're being silly by xappax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, facts and reason, and also logic! For example, logically why should we care about those people when they're way over in some other country and don't even speak American? And what's reasonable about withholding funding from institutions who rely on funding to do unethical things? If people just looked at facts more, they'd see that all the facts say I should buy whatever I want from China, supplying their government with tax money to build up their oppressive military and propaganda efforts! Factually! Furthermore, people who take personal responsibility to do their part to end fascism and repression are air-headed hippies, and probably smoke the dope!


      See? I can sarcastically mis-characterize and exaggerate your argument too. And no, it doesn't add anything to the discussion because we're just inventing caricatured positions to argue against. It may be easier and more fun to diss imaginary "nutjobs", but it doesn't accomplish anything but turning what could be reasonable, constructive discourse into an episode of the Jerry Springer show.

    12. Re:Yes, you're being silly by DELNI-AA · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Replace all: "Chinese" for "American". Any difference in a post War-on-Iraq world?

    13. Re:Yes, you're being silly by Lars512 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We all take pride in our heritage. For a long time China was in many ways in front of the rest of the world. At some point they stagnated technologically, and eventually they were essentially humiliated by foreign powers which were much more advanced and powerful, forcing them to do business (think opium, Hong Kong, Maccau...). This cultural wound is still open and fresh. They want to prove themselves to the world again, and on the whole, their government has been steadily improving. The word from students in China is that more open discussion and criticism of government is more and more readily tolerated, that the more extreme talk may still be censored, but that nobody's just disappearing. There's a feeling that things are moving forward, despite problems of corruption and inequality.

      Furthermore, China has a long history of warring states, turmoil and revolution. In comparison, the stability and progress that they enjoy today is a thing to be treasured. They are grateful to the current government that there has not been another cultural revolution, and that the last 30 years have provided peace and prosperity to many, especially urban Chinese.

      In light of all this, your post is basically calling for more open defiance and conflict. Honestly, the people as a whole aren't ready for that. BUT, the increasing criticism of government can only be a good thing. Once the reins have been loosened enough on this form of criticism, then expect social change to happen more rapidly, as people are more aware of problems, more eager to voice their concerns, and put more pressure on their government to fix its inadequacies.

  2. by that logic... by onemorehour · · Score: 5, Insightful

    avoid Dell, too, since the American government is doing such horrible things around the world. Yes, it's flawed logic. Move on.

    1. Re:by that logic... by Liquidrage · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure because every degree above absolute zero is same the temperature.

      Think what you will of America and it's policies. But to even compare it with China is absurd in that regard. American government has, for the majority of the time, been a boon to the world as a whole. Yes, there are conflicts where wonderful leaders like Saddam are overthrown and it makes people unhappy. And no, I'm not justifying Iraq with that sarcastic statement. But I am pointing out that no matter what side of the fence you're on, Iraq was an issue that should have been delt with. It wasn't Atlantis being invaded. American foreign policy is enormous. The most influential country in the world. While it easy to find examples of harm in there, there is more good then harm in the case of American foreign policy. Where as my biggest gripe with China is how the entire world stands by and let's a country like that into open markets so easily considering how disgraceful that country's government is.

    2. Re:by that logic... by s4m7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      FYI: An article in the New York Times on December 19, 2004 said that Dell laptops are made in Malaysia. In contrast, full size Dell computers are made in the U.S.A. (at least those sold in the USA are made here). Other Dell products, such as PDAs, printers and music players are made by "third party manufacturers" primarily outside of the USA.

      (found here)

      So, maybe, maybe not, depending on model. But GP is being rather extreme comparing the horrible things the US is doing and the horrible things china is doing. We're not imprisoning dissidents and journalists yet, and the country we're occupying is at least still free to practice their religion, short of the call to drive the infidels out of the holy land. Contrast with tibet.

      I'm not saying we're not bad, but we're no China

      --
      This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
    3. Re:by that logic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right, the US would never hold people without a trial, spy on its citizens, or deport people to be tortured

    4. Re:by that logic... by hoyeru · · Score: 5, Insightful

      by your logic, why isn't USA in Sudan RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE? Do you know by UN estimates 1.5 million women and children has been killed, raped etc in Sudan.

      by your logic, why did USA turn their back when simular genocide was happening in Rwanda?

      by your logic, why isn't USA invading Burm, sorry Mun-whetever its called?

      I can continue for a long long time you know. It would appear USA selectively decided who is bad and who isn't.

      Oh and also, remember that photo of Saddam and Rummy shaking hands back in 1980s-something? How come Saddam was good enough to do business with back then but NOT in 2003?

      Hello? hoyeru00@yahoo.com eagerly and breathlessly a-waiting your reply.

      Surprise me, PLEASE by saying something, anything intelligent instead of coming up with YET another new reason as to why USA illegally attacked a sovereign country without provocation.

        fuck karma, I like the truth better

      --
      fuck karma, I like saying the truth better
    5. Re:by that logic... by king-manic · · Score: 5, Insightful


      The worst part about the US going into Iraq is the entire world should have gone. Leaders like Saddam who routinely kill their own people en masse should not be allowed. While everyone was busy living in their free little NA or Europe, few seemed to care what was actually happening in Iraq. Until the US went in there.

      No, I don't buy the reasons given to us all as to why the US went in. But Saddam was a threat. To the world, to the region, and to his own people. He was a disgrace. The type of leader that the world shouldn't tolerate. So forgive me for not weeping that some shoddy reasoning (and who really knows the true purpose) was used to go in there.


      You invaded a fairly stable dictatorship and destroyed almost all of the infrastructure over 15 years, then remove the government and promoted civil war. It was bad under Saddam it's worse under the US. Unlike Japan or Germany there isn't multi billions pouring in to rebuild the infrastructure, we have multi-billion pouring in just to try to maintain order and supply your troops there. There wasn't a good reason to go in and that is why few countries did. Unlike Serbia or Rwanda there was no hope of making the situation better.

      You remember whose payroll Saddam was on in the 70's and 80's? Remember who was training and supplying Osama? Saddam is the type of leader The US promotes. It's asinine for you to say much about it. It's a bigger disgrace that your knowledge of history or world politics seems to come directly from fox news. Any an all action by Saddam were indrectly sanctioned by their main backer the US. So if the submitter has a problem with Chinese products because they backed the oppressive myanmar government then he should also boycott US products due to us backing Saddam and various other tyrannical dictators.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    6. Re:by that logic... by BVis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two words: No oil.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    7. Re:by that logic... by iserlohn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That illustrates the differences in how Americans think of themselves and how the world thinks of America. In the case of China and the issues with Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang, China (and many observers) regards these as territorial and succession issues. It doesn't make it right to suppress these peoples, but such infractions are mainly played out as domestic issues on the world stage. Some would consider such as human rights issues and this is a view I subscribe to personally considering the history of the ruling Communist party in China. However, you cannot discount the fact there is a bit of a double standard also. For an example closer to home, take a look at the U.S. from the point of view of Civil Rights in the past 50 years. How much involvement from foreign powers was The U.S. willing to take?

      On the other hand, America since the start of the cold war, has been *projecting* power to far reaches of the globe. Pretty much like how Great Britain and the colonial powers used to. However, the British and other European powers (and Japan) were at least forthright in their motives (ie. empire building and that famous burden). The reason why America is viewed with so much suspicion (ie. Iraq) nowadays is because the stated reasons of intervention are often very different from the actual reasons for doing so, or at least so it seems. For many people, America embodies the new imperialism and personally I find it surprising that so many are apparently oblivious to this fact. Maybe it is because people of recent generations living in the developed world isn't really aware of the suffering of the many peoples of the colonial era. For many in the developing world, however, this memory is still fresh in the collective consciousness.

      You can argue that the U.S. has no alternative as the U.S.S.R was leveraging its might to maintain her own sphere of influence (a proxy war against free-market liberal nations). There is some truth in that also, but you might be aware that the cold war has ended some years ago. The troubling thing is the nature of international politics hasn't changed much. If developed nations subscribe more to a "do as I do" policy on the international stage, it will make it much harder for rouge nations to have any ammunition to fire back at all. Indeed, it may even win over peoples' hearts in the developing world, making the task of improving the governance of such countries a tad easier.

      --
      :. Ultimate Control Dedicated/VM Servers
  3. I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >> Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company

    If that was your problem, you should never have bought a Thinkpad ever. They were always manufactured by Lenovo which has always been a Chinese comopany, the country which it belongs to has always been the same. Can I call this a sudden attack of morality?

    Aside from the obvious hypocrisy mentioned above, I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions from the cult of Mac, but believe me - its hard to find a replacement for Thinkpad. No matter how slick other notebooks may look, in terms of fineness, usability and sheer joy of typing (yes, thats critical factor for me at least), nothing comes near.

  4. Buy it anyway by ispeters · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is cynical of me, but your private little boycott is not going to do the monks any good. If you buy a new Thinkpad now, it'll outlast the problem in Burma. Just buy another one. Lenovo has always produced Thinkpads, it's just that IBM doesn't support them directly anymore. Thinkpads are still the most reliable laptops in the market.

    Ian

  5. Maybe a T41, T42 or T43 by Myrrh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Buy a newer, but still-made-by-IBM-not-Lenovo Thinkpad off eBay?

  6. Boycot USA products by supersnail · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I certainly wouldnt want to by anything from the USA while children are dying of cholera in Iraq because the USA backed regime has blocked imports of Chlorene.

    --
    Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
  7. Why upgrade? by MilesNaismith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What is wrong with your T20?

    I have an X23 that I refurbished. Maxed out the RAM and put in a new hard-drive. I can't see any reason to replace until it dies.

    Eventually I will replace the spinning hard-drive with a flash-drive. I'd love to find a way to replace the CCFL backlight with LED were that possible, to make it even more long-lived.

    The American fascination with tossing perfectly adequate technology into a landfill is apalling.

  8. Good luck by Bullfish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After Tiananmen Square I stopped buying Chinese. In the last few years it has been almost impossible. If the main thing isn't made in China, components are, and that goes for almost everything. I am sure my shoes are made from the finest Falun Gong hides. In terms of a laptop, I don't any that would have most of the parts made in China. Not much has changed in terms of Chinese regard for human rights, but no one seems to care much as long as they can get what they want cheap, regardless of the treatment of the labour that produces them and the regime that allows it.

    We used to liberate people, now we liberate markets.

  9. You're aware? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That reducing the wealth of people in an area makes them more subservient and dependent on the wealthy? In this case, the state... Sanctions ironically simply cement the power of the powerful.

    You make people more independent by making them wealthy.

    --
    Deleted
  10. Original Device Manufacturers by cerelib · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most companies, even Lenovo, use ODM companies to make laptops. Some of these companies are Chinese, but Taiwan is also a major competitor. Look for names like Quanta, Compal, or ASUS if you want to go with a Taiwanese company instead of a Chinese company. The ODM relationships are not advertised, so you will have to do some digging. Join forums like notebookreview.com and ask people to tell you where their laptops label says it was manufactured if you want to be sure.

  11. I'm also a fan of the T series by zymurgyboy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    and I've replaced it with this and this and couldn't be happier. If you're looking for something with a similar lifespan, look no further.

    I carried my little white 2001 iBook in a gym bag back and forth to the office for 4 years, before retiring it for it's final year to home only as a couch computer. It finally gave up the ghost after 5.5 years, and two drops to the linoleum covered floor in my living room -- once from 2 feet, once from three and a half. I wish Apple still used the bullet proof glass for iBook cases. That iBook sure took a beatin' before it belly-uped .

    --
    If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
  12. The point about America... by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In America, you can have a website and a donate money to form an organization saying "Bush sucks". In China, if you did that, you would wind up in jail.

    --
    This is my sig.
  13. Re:Ummmm by pipatron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Lower quality, questionable security.

    Sources, or gtfo.

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  14. Re:Ummmm by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Never mind that one keeps a family in the US employed

    Is there really someone left in the US who believes that people are unemployed because of production moving overseas? We are at full employment; people aren't starving here, just doing non-manufacturing jobs. It's okay.

    --
    Do you have ESP?
  15. Two-pronged response. by gafisher · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Order a new Thinkpad for yourself; they're built where and as they've always been built, at least for now. There's nothing better in its class.

    Then go to http://www.xogiving.org/ and order up a couple of XO laptops so the poor kids in Burma have a shot (pardon the expression) at a real future. If you like, you can sign up to buy a pair of XO laptops, one for a poor kid in some third-world country and one for your own kid or a neighbor or even for yourself. You'll pay less for those two XOs than Microsoft gets for a retail copy of Windows, and they'll do a lot more good (and, um, work a lot better ...)

  16. Re:Sorry for the lenght but it needs to be said. by Liquidrage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It didn't need to be said. And it does not even come close to telling the entire story. Almost all Iraqi arms under Saddam were French and Russian made.

    That the US backed Iraq due to *the enemy of my enemy* policy is no secret. And I personally do not like that type of policy, even if the enemy was Iran. Do you have any idea what actually went on in Iran and how disgusting of a government that is even to this day?

    However, as much as I don't like it I'm not going to pretend a case can't be made for it.

    Bottom line is, just because you can copy-n-paste an article from the internet doesn't mean you understand anything about the the article. And it doesn't mean the article is with merit.

    I personally find most of the touting of US-Iraq relations prior to GWI to be very simplistic in nature. It's rare to see someone discussing it in detail and in regards to the region and world as a whole over the lsat 40 or 50 years.

    Life isn't always so simple that a trite copy-n-paste can make a good point on your behalf.

  17. Sweet Merciful Hay Soos... by absurdist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...is there no one left on Slashdot who grasps the concept of sarcasm?

  18. Speaking for corpses, are we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How confidently you speak for the one point two million corpses in Iraq, plus the four million or so refugees. You must have mad psychic powers.

  19. Worst metric *Ever* by ePhil_One · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You can't go entirely by the fraction of the population in prison...but that's a strong indicator.

    So by this metric, if the US simply executed its criminals w/o trial, we would be the BEST country on the planet.

    Awesome

    --
    You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.