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Why Is US Grad School Mainly Non-US Students?
I am a new graduate student in Computer Engineering. I would like to get my MS and possibly my Ph.D. I have learned that 90% of my department is from India and many others are from China. All the students come here to study and there are only 7 US citizens in the engineering program this year. Why is that? I have heard that many of the smarter Americans go into medicine or the law and that is why there are so few Americans in engineering. Is this true?
Philip Greenspun has a very good article on why becoming a scientist doesn't make sense for most people:
http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science
The article is titled "Women in Science," but it basically argues that the preparation costs for becoming a scientist (college, grad school, post doc) are so high, and the economic rewards so low and uncertain, that intelligent people are more likely to be drawn to other fields like medicine.
Numb3rs.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Yes, it is. Most people want to be able to pay for food, a house, maybe a car to get around in, and so forth.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Who says you get that much more learning in a graduate program? It's just two more semesters of school and maybe some "project" that doesn't teach you as much real world experience as a year on the job. Yeah, school is fine because it teaches you some nice theoretical stuff, but a graduate degree in computer science doesn't buy you a whole lot.
I can learn just as much (or more, actually) by reading a textbook as I can by listening to a professor summarize the information in a textbook. And I think you'll find that many of those foreigners who crowd our graduate programs don't actually do so well in industry. That's why they're not in industry.
Another point of consideration is visas. The company I work for hired a new graduate from India (who had gone to one of the universities in this state), but they couldn't get the work visa for her. So, what's she going to do? Go back to school, of course.
I'm a student in the US, and I'm from India. Yes, I do pay taxes on my stipend.
Medical degrees are useless outside the country they were obtained in, because you need a license to practice medicine (and law). US in particular has a very strict and somewhat unfair licensing exam for all foreign doctors/foreign school graduates that requires them to pretty much re-take the last 2 - 3 years of their undergrad degree, regardless of how long they practiced medicine anywhere else in the world.
So, you may see less foreign students at medical and law schools unless those students plan on actually working in the US later.
On the other hand you can take your CS degree earned anywhere in the world and take it with you and get jobs.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
Besides that fact, US GDP per capita is several times that of India
13X India, 5.3X China
C//
I see this attitude often, and it baffles me.
Depending on your major, you shouldn't foot the bill. In engineering, it is rare to find someone paying for his advanced degree. They usually have a teaching or research assistantship. At most, the ill informed come and pay for the first semester themselves, and then get some sort of funding after that.
Same goes for science (in fact, often science departments don't admit if they don't have funding).
In humanities/social science, things are more competitive. Harder to get funding there, but a lot of people still find away.
When I was graduating with my BS, most of my fellow grads used the "can't afford grad school because I've got enough debts already" excuse. Pity they never bothered asking the grad students in their departments how they were being funded...
When I was applying to grad school, my plan was that if I can obtain funding prior to starting, I'd go. Otherwise, I'd get a job. Paying for grad school was a no-no, as it should be.
Beetle B.
I'm a Canadian currently doing a PhD at an US university 90 minutes south of the border and I can tell you that not only do we pay taxes, we pay more taxes than US citizens (1040-NR doesn't allow us to make all the deductions that a regular us citizen gets to put on their tax form. Namely there's a big ~5K that we can't deduct, so while my american buddy paid 80$ income tax, I paid 840$). To make matters worse the US-Canada tax treaty only kicks in if you make less than 10k. So, in other words, we pay taxes to both the US, the state we live in and Canada... And if I was a previously a Quebec resident, I'd have to pay Canadian federal and Quebec provincial tax.
I don't know about other grad students, but I don't come to the US for the funding, I came because my department is the best in the world for my area of research, and I'm willing to take the tax shaft as a result. Still you'd think Canada and the US would have a more productive tax treaty. Many other countries do.
You pay no income tax only if you don't have income. TA/RA stipend is income and taxed. On campus work is taxed.
The stipend is same for everyone and is advertised on the department website.
No they are not exempt!
YOu are making stuff up.
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Doctors and lawyers are protected by guilds, with barriers to entry and such, requiring local certification to practice, ad nauseum, ad nauseum.
C//
I agree with you, but someone needs to correct this idea that Japan's economy is still in stagnation. It has been growing far faster than the Eurozone for the last several years. The economic stagnation basically ended 3 to 4 years back. on top of the high rate of growth, prices are stable to slightly falling in the country amplifying the gains. I won't go into the structural problems that remain and social issues that still hold back this economy, but it is by no means stagnant.
More importantly, 90% of American engineering students realize that the only reason for getting an MS in engineering is to teach. I'm yet to find someone who thinks he learned something worthwhile in post-grad engineering school.
Getting an MBA has actual value. Working and gaining real-world experience has actual value. Meaningful research is a noble task, but... there isn't that much of it going on in most programs from what I can tell.
Contrast that with India or Germany, where you basically need a PhD to get a job flipping burgers (yes, sarcasm), and it is easy to understand why Americans are a minority.
Also, it isn't a recent change; it's been true for the past 20 years.
In my mechanical/Aerospace engineering classes (I'm working on my Ph.D.) they are dominated by white students.
I believe a big part of that is due to the fact that most aerospace jobs - in defense, virtually all, some (not many) at NASA - require security clearances. So why start what you can't begin? There were a lot more indian students in particular at the undergraduate level.
I'm taking a CFD class right now, 8 students, 1 Indian student, 1 oriental student. Don't know citizenship status. Rest of us are caucasian. The semester before, Hypersonic Aerodynamics, all caucasian and african-american. Semester before, Aerothermodynamics, all caucasian and african-american. The same trend was readily apparent for my graduate work as well.
I know there are a lot more foreign students in the CS department. I don't think its an american vs. foreigner thing, I think it is a type of engineering thing.
Orders of magnitude are based on a log-10 scale. When one says "x is an order of magnitude greater than y", one means "log x is 1 greater than log y". For instance, 1000 is an order of magnitude greater than 100 because log 100 is 3 and log 1000 is 4. Likewise, log 2 billion is 9.3, and log 300 million is 8.4. As you may have gathered by now, 9.3 is almost one more than 8.4.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
I believe you're highly mistaken that you're lower middle class at 60K / year, according to wikipedia your income is above the median of every state in the union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Median_income
In what part of the country is $60k/yr lower middle class? Maybe in SF, but you can pull down that sort of money hauling trash there.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
What's so hard to believe about his income If he's not employed full-time, he could easily make $10,xxx a year without being a complete slacker. 35 hours a weeks will get him $10,xxx gross, and that's damned close to full-time. If he's an adult student, and therefore trying to better himself, then it's *really* likely he's not working full-time. Regarding the comment about his internet connection, I did the math some 20-odd ways when I was in between contracts: buck-for-buck, my internet connection was the cheapest way to research/apply for jobs, be reachable by contract agencies, and also have enough entertainment that I didn't completely lose my mind.
-- Dedicated Cthulhu cultist since 1982 A.C.E.
FWIW here in Calvert County Maryland you'd have a hard time getting good housing at that rate. I think part of the perception of what's middle class and upper and lower etc has to do with the recent housing bubble. People I know bought their townhouses for $130k 6 years ago and now those houses are selling for $300k. Whereas 60k might have been pretty livable here at that time it isn't anymore, certainly not for a family.
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
200K * 6% per year interest is 1000$ a month, plus a bit of paying off, say 1200$ a month; 60K income per year gives you 5000$ a month, taxed at perhaps 30% makes 3500$ - 1200$ = 2300$ a month free for food, gadgets, children and repairs. Maybe it's because I live in a relatively risk-free area, but if 6% is reasonable, then your calculations are way off.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
In the Metro-DC area, especially within five miles of the I495 loop or beltway, $60k/yr as a total household income is definately lower middle class. If both parents work and make $70k/yr each, then with a total household income between $130k and $150k/yr they land in middle-middle class.
With housing being a large cost in any family budget, and apartments being extremely scarce, families often locate further out - meaning the parents enjoy a commute of two hours or more, each way, to work. Sacrificing 4 hours per day with their families, these parents earn a middle class income but have lower middle class housing costs, thereby attaining a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle at the cost of family time, stress, car / travel costs and other costs.
Households with less than $90k/yr total income are considered lower class, to lower middle class in the Metro-DC (mid-atlantic USA) area.
FWIW, people in the Metro-DC area get paid $20/hr to mow yards, because lower class yard help is not available because no close-in lower class or affordable housing is available. $20/hr = $40k/yr.
At $60k/yr, the wage earner could be a manager of lawn mowing crews, in the Metro-DC area.
Oh, and everything costs about twice as much in the Metro-DC area as it does anywhere else. Highest prices in the nation on gas, milk, bread, restaurants, etc etc.
Oh, and the surrounding States (MD and VA) treat the Metro-DC area as a cash-cow. They are forever increasing taxes on these counties, while reducing services delivered. The revenue raised is redistributed to the rest of the State. In Va for instance one will find 21 cash negative counties and 9 cash positive counties in terms of aggregate State Tax Revenue. So, four counties in Northern Virginia "contribute" more than half of the entire State of Virginia budget each year, yet, have the worst traffic in the State and constantly have to vote in new bonds just to get local road improvements or to keep the public schools at the same level of performance or for parks, hospitals, libraries - all the stuff these same taxpayers are already paying massive amounts of tax dollars to support.
That's one place where $60k/year is lower middle class income.
I would expect Manhattan to be another, San Francisco to be another, Chicago to be another, etc.
k...looking at Quicken Loans, if you have good credit you can get a $190,000, 30 year fixed loan (you need at least a 5% down payment these days, $10,000) at 6.25% interest, which is $1,169 a month. That's with good credit of course, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. If you really want to get ahead of the curve, pay an extra $100 to $200 a month against the principle.
You can play around with the extra payments (prepayments) at Karl's Mortgage Calculator if you want. In the example above, an extra $100 from the start shortens the loan from 30 years to 24 years, 3 months. $200 a month would shorten the loan to 20 years 7 months.
So, in short, you're way off base. :-)
$200k will get you a nice house in a lot of the country...and it'll get you more in a few more months. ;-)
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And if your property taxes on a $200,000 house are $3600 a year (and some places, like New Jersey, can easily hit three times that level of taxes for a $200,000 home) and you're also smart enough to have homeowner's insurance and flood insurance (where floods are a risk), and your monthly payment is around $1600.
Still doable on a $60,000 gross income, but not by as much of a margin as you'd think.
And property taxes are a tough one. Most parents have three choices: pay cheap property taxes in a district and send your kids to mediocre public schools, pay high property taxes and send your kids to decent public schools, or pay cheap property taxes and then spend lots of extra money sending your kids to decent private schools.
Unless you come out of grad school entirely free of loan debt, single-family housing is not an option for two-earner, U.S.-Government-salaried families in the D.C./Baltimore Metro area. (It's worse in Northern Virginia; it's no longer much better north of Baltimore.) Thank God prices have been pretty flat the past 18 months: 2000-2005 saw a 300% increase in the cost of housing in Washington/Baltimore. Federal salary cost-of-living-increase during that same period was only about 25%.
In GS (pay rank) terms, you're talking what used to take a couple GS-9s (mean entry grade for folks with a master's degree) or a single GS-13 (the mean grade for all employees, generally achieved mid-to-late-30s)...now takes two 13s or a nearly-maxed out 15 (top end of the general payscale; seldom achieved before mid-40s. Will Farrell's SNL character disrespected-dad-with-his-own-government-parking-spot would have been a GS-15).
Imagine: being able to afford a freestanding home on a half-acre lot to raise your children just as they start finishing college.
Unless whole federal agencies get moved to entirely other cities, or something is done to make housing affordable for the under-35 crowd (e.g. student loan forgiveness for civil service; housing assistance like the military gets), civil service in the nation's capital won't be a viable option for anyone but the upper class and singles who split apartment/townhouse costs with roommates.
As for my then-immediate reaction to your post:
Townhouses?! Try those $300,000-used-to-be-$130,000 condos that used to be $75,000 in 2000/2001...and $60,000 in 1999. (Remember, 300% is the average increase.)
Granted, this is in Prince Georges County.
By the Silver Spring metro (Montgomery County), they built a bunch of townhouses in 1998. They were selling for $200,000. Last I knew -- about four years ago -- they were going well over $600,000. Hell, new townhouses by Wheaton Metro were going close for $750,000 a couple years ago. (Remember when rent controlled apartment housing in Bethesda was limited to households with incomes under $90,000? Probably not: it was 2002. And even then I couldn't afford to live there.)
He can be considered lower middle class if he is supporting a wife who doesn't work and a couple of children, depending on how expensive the cost of living is in the area of course.
If he's single an making 60K, then that's a different story.
I got nothin'
Don't get me started on the Nova tax crap. They really should secede, especially after that $1000 traffic fee debacle last month.
My story: I got a house in springfield in 2000 for $170k (townhouse with basement, no garage). The mortgage was $1200/mo and there was PMI. I could have done an 80/15 thing like I have now, but I was young and foolish. I made $60k starting (I assume it'd be different now) and had money for toys. I would probably be able to make 90k there, but that's a fair bit - if 90k is about the limit for middle class, then where are the middle class jobs? My perception is that 90k is a fairly well paid position and that there aren't that many people making that or more. If I'm mistaken, I'd love to know who it is making 90k and above.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Why do people keep thinking that middle class has anything to do with average?
While semantically it might sound like middle class means "people in the middle of the bell curve of family incomes". Middle class has nothing to do with median incomes, or average incomes. It has to do with how a certian class of people live their lives.
Classes are generally broken up into six groups. First is the underclass, who live well below the poverty line and rely on the government to live. Next is the working poor, who make minimum wage and still probably rely on the government for some help. These two classes make up about 25% of our population.
Next is the working class. They do your standard factory work and low level clerical work, and generally make around 16-30k a year (household income). In the mid to late 20th century many jobs that originally were considered working class jobs started to pay enough to be considered lower middle class. A garbage man for instance can easily make $40k-50k/yr today. They make up about 30% of the population.
The middle class is split into Lower/Upper. There is no Middle Middle class, which is probably what is creating so much confusion on this forum. Lower Middle class are people who have very good jobs, but not necessarily overly professional jobs. They tend to have family incomes that range from $30k-75k/yr. Almost all of their income comes from their salary, but they generally have enough money to easily save for retirement. They make up about 30% of the population.
The upper middle class are your doctors/lawyers/engineers who generally have six figure family incomes. They often hold graduate degrees or greater, and live very affluently. They still get most of their income from their salary, but they often get a decent amount of extra income from investments. They make up about 15% of the population.
The upper class is the rich people. They tend to make at least $500k/yr, and usually most of their income comes from investments and not their job. They are your CEOs and other very successful business owners. They make up less than 1% of our population.
Being in a large city and making $70k/yr combined income, you are most likely on the high end of Lower Middle Class. The very fact that you even have to worry about things like keeping your mortgage payment low shows that you are not in the upper middle class. That is not a bad thing though, people in the lower middle class usually live very good lives. They tend to live in nice homes and drive nice cars. They can send their kids to college and save for retirement.
But if you have ever worried about your mortgage, you are in the lower middle class.
If you have ever worried about how much college costs, you are in the lower middle class.
If you have ever worried about retirement, you are in the lower middle class.
If you are in the upper middle class and worry about any of these things, then you are drastically overspending on things like lamburghinis and million dollar homes. Even sending three kids to harvard should be a fairly easy thing for a family that is truly in the upper middle class.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke