Why Is US Grad School Mainly Non-US Students?

I am a new graduate student in Computer Engineering. I would like to get my MS and possibly my Ph.D. I have learned that 90% of my department is from India and many others are from China. All the students come here to study and there are only 7 US citizens in the engineering program this year. Why is that? I have heard that many of the smarter Americans go into medicine or the law and that is why there are so few Americans in engineering. Is this true?

Comments

90% of those who apply are probably from India...

[stevenvi]

They accept those who apply. Most Americans are probably happy with just an undergrad degree and don't want to go to grad school.

Being an American graduate student myself, there are a lot of foreigners where I am as well. I don't have a problem with it. Why are you ranting here and not in some blog?

Because we can get great jobs with just a B.Sc

[Anonymous Coward]

No text

It's a numbers game

[The One and Only]

India has a billion people. China has a billion people. America has 300,000 people, which is almost an order of magnitude less than India and China combined. Consider that many of the best grad schools are in America--plenty of Indians and Chinese come to America for grad school, but you don't see as many Americans going to India or China. All in all, Americans are fortunate that we can get the same education next door that other people travel around the world for.

Re:It's a numbers game

[The One and Only]

Fine, 300,000,000. Which is still about an order of magnitude less than 2,000,000,000.

Re:It's a numbers game

[ScrewMaster]

Actually, it is. China reached the point of significant industrialization in an incredibly short time by instituting an organized knowledge transfer program (and not just the U.S., but we were the most concentrated stockpile of information around, with the fewest restrictions on foreign students.) Call it what you want, but China's people came here, educated themselves as to what a high-technology culture needs to build and maintain the required industry ... and then went home and did just that. India is now doing the same thing. Right or wrong, conspiracy or not ... that's what's going on.

Re:It's a numbers game

[pipatron]

Where did the idea start that America is just some vast smorgasbord of cool stuff that anyone can just take for themselves any time they please?

Probably around the time Christopher Colombus arrived to America.

Re:It's a numbers game

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxes on what? They're students. They paid for the course. That's money into your economy. What more do you want off them? Blood?

Re:It's a numbers game

[enbody]

It is a net gain. Look at it this way. The US takes some of the top students from some very large countries, e.g. India and China. They get educated here and most want to stay. If we keep them here, we are taking the cream of the crop from other countries and they add to our GDP. Over their lifetimes they add more to or GDP than we have provided in educating them. Why? Because they are smart and driven to work hard.

This is from personal observation of this field over the last twenty years. The stupidest thing we can do is pay for their education and then not allow them to stay. The second most stupid thing we can do is make it harder for them to come here. We are currently doing both of those stupid things more than we used to.

Re:It's a numbers game

[Dun Malg]

So? Why exactly are domestic students better uses of taxpayer dollars then foreign students? Foreign nationals cannot hold jobs, and upon graduation move back to their home countries. I think the notion is that government subsidies ought to be going to improve conditions within the country, rather than to give a hand to someone who doesn't contribute to the economy.

Re:It's a numbers game

[Reaperducer]

I do wonder if this is why the American attitude (In a gross... disgustingly gross exaggeration) seems relatively insular compared to many other countries. Too much naval gazing because you're already the centre of the universe.

Although that is a common perception, especially here on Slashdot, it is not accurate.

There is a certain amount of fear of outsiders in every country. Americans with Mexicans. The French with north Africans. Austrians and Germans with the Turks. Hong Kongers with mainlanders.

It's just in fashion right now to bash America, so that's why you see that stereotype more than others.

Re:It's a numbers game

[JanneM]

Keyword: "research grant".

A graduate student is doing research - real, publishable research - during their training. They are doing work in other words, presumably work that is valued enough by their employer to be worth spending a chunk of money on. A lot of the gruntwork on any research project is done by graduate students and post-docs, and the money, whether a research grant, stipend or other form, is renumeration for that. Yes, they're studying as well - but on the other hand they're underpaid for the real-work part. In many countries a graduate student position really is a job, a four or five-year employment with salary, vacation days, child leave, employer evaluations and all the rest of it.

In this sense it's no different from funding post-docs or visiting professorships, most of whom usually come from abroad as well. The funding agency is paying them to do a job, and hopefully, on average feel that the results in form of published research, skill transfer, furtherance of projects, taught classes and so on are worth it. And just like other contract work, what the worker does once the contract is up isn't really an ongoing concern anymore. Academic research is pretty much predicated on this kind of movement for spreading ideas and furthering results.

Re:It's a numbers game

[ScrewMaster]

Probably around the time the Statue of Liberty came along with the phrase "Give me your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free." Or maybe earlier, with the idea of the Beacon on the Hill, America being an example for other nations and peoples to follow.

Nope. You still have it wrong, just like the poster that followed you. It's all fine and dandy for us to be an inspiration for other peoples to follow. I'm all for setting a good example. However, this situation is far more complex than you make it out to be, and your simplification may very well cost us everything we hold dear. America is no longer in a situation where we need more people, see immigration as a way to achieve that without waiting for the population to rise on its own.

Understand what I'm trying to say here. It's not that I think American should simply close it's borders and not allow anyone in. People do come here from all over the world. Some few of those eventually earn their citizenship (my fiancee, for example, is Nigerian: she's been here for about twenty five years and became a Citizen a few years ago) and become valued members of our society. However, though she is Nigerian by birth she is an American at heart! This is vitally important for any society that accepts immigrants and naturalizes them. Do you understand our traditions, our way of life? Are you willing to become a part of us ... not a little bit, not mostly, but all the way? Do your loyalties lie with us, or with the nation of your birth? Are you just here to pig your share of the goodies? Do you truly understand what it means to be an American?

If not ... we don't want you. There's a certain reality here that is being, so far as I can tell, completely ignored by all the pro-H1B, pro-amnesty crowd. A couple of points, 1. We have laws regarding immigration. They should be followed, because they were put into place a long, long time ago and for good reason. We ignore them at our peril and 2. We want people that have become assimilated into our culture, that are as much a part of our way of life as possible. Assimilation is a process, and is one that takes time. It's important, assimilation is, and it is why we don't just hand out citizenships to everyone that wants one. No matter how intelligent, how educated, how talented you are, we want you to be one of us. This not a uniquely American ideal either: all nations expect that their citizens be loyal to their country, whether they were born there or not. Japan, for example, is particularly concerned with those of foreign birth, whom they permit to call themselves "Japanese". The insist that those individuals be as truly Japanese as humanly possible.

My fiancee is one of those "huddled masses" of which you speak. Let me tell you something: she earned the right to be here, to enjoy everything our great nation has to offer. She didn't just wander across the border and decide, "hey, this place is nice. I think I'll set up shop here." No ... she followed the rules, obeyed the law, and now has all the same rights that I, a natural-born citizen, have enjoyed all my life. I'll tell you something else: it absolutely pulls her cork when President Bush foams at the mouth about granting several million criminals amnesty for their crimes, and giving them many of the same rights that she worked so hard to receive.

You really need to understand that unchecked immigration is a death sentence for any society.

Re:It's a numbers game

[Firethorn]

Probably has something to do with that only a fraction of our population goes to a university for a four year program, much less longer. I think that if you look at US Citizens who go into these programs that you'll see a noticeable skew in which schools they come from.

Remember, while our schools might be below average compared with other first world nations, it's also an extremely fragmented system - unlike how some school systems are nationally administered, you have to remember that every state has it's own school system - indeed you can frequently substitute counties and cities in there as well. This means in that while the USA has some of the worst schools in the world - we also have some of the best in the world. There are regions where public schools would be considered excellent, and areas where anybody who's anybody send their children to private institutions.

Finally, we've been concentrating too much on mediocrity - spending too much effort on making sure everybody we can meets minimum standards, rather than trying to push students as far as they'll go.

Re:It's a numbers game

[The One and Only]

What, are you afraid we will run out of education? If they want to better themselves by learning from America, we should be honored, and humbled, that civilizations more ancient and in many ways richer than ours, consider us worthy of emulation. They do not gain at our expense--they gain at our mutual benefit.

Re:It's a numbers game

[StrongAxe]

The Japanese also invaded China and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people, does that make it OK for us to do so as well? I think not.

Well, Fearless Leader seems to think it was a good idea in Iraq...

Re:It's a numbers game

[Eli Gottlieb]

Except that none of your examples really show a blind xenophobia.

The Mexicans do immigrate into this country illegally. They have good reasons and the best motivations (better life for the wife and kids, health care for mom and dad in old age), but they still break the law.

The French are afraid of the North Africans because they're far too arrogant to assimilate the Africans they allowed into their country in a ploy for cheap labor. French culture, for some reason, does not feel able to assimilate a minority subculture in the way that most of the English-speaking world does.

Austrians and Germans have a nasty history of political and religious war with the Turks. The fighting only ended with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire after WW1, and people on all sides still remember that.

Hong Kongers, frankly, have better educations, better living conditions, and better economic prospects than nearly all mainland Chinese, and they live in a city-state on an island. Of course they don't want mainlanders arriving, bringing mainland cultural and political influence with them.

But yeah, some people do take this whole "laugh at idiot America because they invaded Iraq" thing a bit too far sometimes.

Re:It's a numbers game

[torako]

Austrians and Germans have a nasty history of political and religious war with the Turks. The fighting only ended with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire after WW1, and people on all sides still remember that. I don't think that's the reason. A huge number of people from Turkey were invited to come to Germany by the government to work in the mining and steel industries in the 60s and 70s (as were Italians before). Of course the incentives were decent pay, universal health care and all that, so the program was wildly popular. The tiny problem that the government didn't consider was that those people weren't going to leave after working for a few years. They were never really considered to be immigrants, so there were no requirements on languange proficiency or anything and the people were treated as foreign guest workers.

Naturally, not feeling welcome, the families from Turkey stayed very much within their minority, building what amounts to all small economy on grocery stores etc. You didn't even have to know German to live a decent life in that minority within Germany.

It has taken decades for the government and the public to realize that those people have, in fact, immigrated (a lot of them are German nationals by now, most of the second and third generation definitely), but nobody helped them to assimilate and the immigrants themselves, always having in mind that their stay would only be temporary, never cared to learn the language either.

All this combined with the fact that the mining and steel industries are by now pretty much defunct and that not being able to speak German pretty much rules out getting a well-paid job has lead to the rise of ghettos and a huge number of unemployed, uneducated Turkish youths (gangs and all that).

Strangely, Germany has also seen lots of immigrants from Poland and Italy and those groups have avoided all those problems I mentioned. The main reason is probably that they were better educated to begin with and thus able and willing to learn German (Most of the people from Turkey were from pretty backwards regions in the east).

Re:It's a numbers game

[SuhlScroll]

Do these foreign students pay taxes in the US? If so, how long did they or do they pay? Is it a net gain for the US or a loss? If a loss then why is it done?

Because it provides a stream of cheap technical labor for U.S. companies who want to drive their costs (salaries) down. Also professors like to abuse grad students, and foreigners trying to immigrate from a toilet country are a lot more willing to submit to anal sex with their graduate advisor than are American students.

Re:It's a numbers game

[nwbvt]

The concept of rapture didn't originate with the book of Revelations, it is generally considered to be from a vision by a 19th century 15 year old girl, which was then popularized by preachers of the era. Nowadays it is often taught as if it were part of Revelations in order to hide its apocryphal nature.

In fact, contrary to modern day popular opinion, Revelations itself is not about a future apocalypse, rather it is an allegory about the fall of Rome which, at the time Revelations was authored was not exactly amenable to the Christian movement (what with the whole feeding them to lions thing and Nero using them as lampposts in his garden).

Most people live outside the US

[The-Pheon]

The best students in the world go to the best Universities in the world. The Universities in the United States consistently dominate the top universities in the world.[1] Thus, it isn't surprising that many people from other countries come here to study.

[1] http://www.arwu.org/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm

Re:$$chool.

[Duhavid]

That is a factor.

But as long as "success" is defined by earnings, and
lawyers and doctors are paid more than engineers,
the smart ones will pick this way.

Easy answer

[Osty]

Very few Americans require anything more than a BS to get a job with a Computer Engineering or Computer Science degree. On the other hand, it's easier for a non-citizen to get a job if they have a MS from a domestic school. As well, it's generally easier for them to get into shool than get into a job (the job comes after being here a few years and getting that MS), and gives a nice ~2 year jump on the whole green card process. If they somehow fail to find a job after getting the MS, there's always the option to continue on with a PhD while looking for something that will actually pay the bills.

The goal of college for 90% of Americans is to get a better job. Therefore 90% of Americans aren't going to spend any more time than necessary in school, and if they do go for higher degrees it's usually for something that will increase their pay. A BS in CE doesn't get paid much less than a MS in CE, but a BS in CE with an MBA who's promoted into management does get paid quite a bit more.

Re:Easy answer

[servognome]

But what about interest in knowledge and the subject matter? Is that a fringe aspect for americans?

No, those things can be accomplished while working in industry. Work & study are not mutually exclusive.
From personal experience, I appreciate learning in an applied engineering environment rather than the theory of academia.

Re:Easy answer

[dkh2]

I really admire that you have not yet been tainted by competitive consumerism and real world cynicism. Let us know how you feel in another 5 years.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm all for the quest for knowledge and personal growth. Unfortunately, most of U.S. society doesn't live that way.

Re:Easy answer

[rm999]

Good explanation. Here's a cost analysis for an American engineering student:

Typical starting salary if you have a computer engineering BS: 65K a year
Getting a masters: (-65000*2 years) - 40000 in tuition = 170,000 net loss
Extra salary with masters: 5-10K
Years to recoup losses: 15-35 years

This is why many Americans do not consider grad school. Especially those who have college loans to pay off from undergrad, or who have worked a few years and have gotten used to having money.

There are plenty of reasons why foreigners want to go to grad school. Foreigners have to jump through more hoops to get a good job in the USA; they have to be smarter than an American to get the same job for various reasons, including: tougher communication, more red tape with the government, implicit racism, etc. A grad degree helps a lot. Being in school is less risky than a job, because if they get fired or laid off their green card may get taken away. American grad schools are generally very strong, which attracts a lot of foreigners. Remember that the combined population of India, China and Europe is several times that of the USA - there are a lot of foreigners who *want* to be in American grad schools. The best and brightest make it here, and often perform very well.

Re:Easy answer

[GileadGreene]

From personal experience, I appreciate learning in an applied engineering environment rather than the theory of academia.

From my own personal experience (having worked in several different fields of engineering, and having down a couple of stints in grad school), I've found that the learning you can do in an applied engineering environment and the theory you can get in academia are complementary. Both are valuable, and each enhances the other. I've found that the times when I've been in grad school have been much more fruitful (compared to undergrad) due to the practical insights and the context that my work experience provided. By the same token, my ability to create working solutions is enhanced by the breadth and depth of academic knowledge I can bring to bear on a problem. Undergrad gives you the engineering equivalent of a swiss-army knife - you can do a lot of stuff, and you can learn all sorts of practical tricks to make that knife do things you'd never expect it to be able to do, but it's not always the best tool for the job. Grad school allows you to add a few power tools and some precision instruments to your mental workshop. Granted, most days you can probably get by with just the swiss-army knife. But sometimes it's nice to be able to call on one of those more powerful tools for some particularly troublesome piece of work.

come on... SAY it...

[seven of five]

no market for engineers in US. Market for engineers in India & China.

Next month, no market for lawyers, doctors in US... we'll all flip burgers.

Too busy working for a living.

[gbutler69]

Mostly I think it is because we're all too busy working for a living. Those who can afford college without having to work, do go into medicine and law as you said. Especially law. If you control the law you can control the money.

Most Americans, even if they are really smart and work hard in high-school, still have to work while attending college and have little time for serious study. By the time they've finished four years of University, they have between $60,000.00 and $100,000.00 in debt. They look around and realize that if they go to graduate school, they will probably double that debt.

Now, they've worked for most of the time they've been at University, and haven't truly been able to get all the benefits of dedicated study, and they are faced with more of the same. More debt, etc.

Because they have work experience and because they can take jobs that pay reasonably well, they do so, figuring it is best to cut their losses.

This is somewhat short-sighted, but, it is inevitable.

A foreign student in the U.S. usually (from my experience) attended non-graduate school in their home country and it was a free-ride one way or another (I'm not saying they aren't smart and didn't have to work really hard). They are now in the U.S. attending graduate school, usually on some sort of scholarship (not saying they didn't earn it).

They don't need to work to pay for school. They are not accruing massive debt. They can't just take a reasonable paying job in the U.S. because their student visa doesn't allow it. In their home country, reasonable paying jobs (without an advanced degree) aren't as plentiful. Their choices are, continue in graduate school while not accruing massive debts and yet being able to dedicate 100% of their efforts to learning and mastering the material, or return to their home nation and compete for jobs without and advanced degree. It's a pretty easy choice.

Cash ! Get Rich ! Make it !

[unity100]

You americans are so pumped up with "making it out in the big world, big time" that, jumping into the foray to make cash as soon as you can.

its cultural.

Re:Because a majority of US citizens are poor?

[delong]

Really this is just silly. If 9.8% of US families is considered "the majority", then you'd be right. But you're wrong. Besides that fact, US GDP per capita is several times that of India or China, so by your logic there should be no Indian or Chinese grad students because not only are a majority of Indians and Chinese truly poor, they are much poorer than the average American.

Most Americans don't go to grad school because there is little economic incentive to do so. The US economy only supports so many technocrats. The presence of so many Indian and Chinese students in US science and technical grad programs is a natural function of those nations' evolving manufacturing and services sectors. They simply need to train more technocrats because their sectors are growing compared to those sectors in the US, which are economically mature.

As to India or China "surpassing" the US, what does that mean? Surpassing the US in what? Manufacturing? Good! That's economic specialization that creates efficiencies for everyone. Not only is talk of "surpassing" mere economic scare-mongering (did we learn nothing from such silliness when the Japanese were supposed to "surpass us" in the 1980s? Where are the Japanese today? Economic stagnation), it makes erroneous straight-line projections that ignore very important long term considerations of demographics and other factors. The US economy will be a large and important factor in the global economy for the foreseeable future. But the global economy continues to grow and evolve and the US economy continues to change from its post-WWII dominance (unsurprising since it was the only intact industrial economy on the planet) to an important player in a dynamic specialized global economy.

med school has fewer? Hahahaahaa...

[SuperBanana]

I have heard that many of the smarter Americans go into medicine or the law

Medicine is not the place to go - there is an insane glut of grad students and postdocs. Competition is extremely fierce. If you're thinking of going for any sort of specialty practice- forget it. Everyone wants to be a *insert narrow specialty* doctor; nobody wants to be a general practitioner or go into pediatrics where we really need doctors. So, we have 50 zillion hand surgeons, and a line a mile out the doors of all the family docs.

As for medical research - our lab is chock full of foreign students. The lab director prefers them because they're basically slaves- they want desperately to be in the US, and the lab holds their visa. They'll put up with shit pay, no/little credit for their work, insane hours, and unreasonable demands. They're just happy to be on US soil.

Someone told me once that the lab couldn't attract US candidates because said candidates were going for higher profile, better paying positions.

If you want to be successful coming out of grad school- go for engineering, either mechanical or electrical. Big shortages predicted in both fields, from what I've heard.

Whatever you do, skip research - unless you look forward to flushing several years of your life down the drain to help some professor reel in a research grant, who'll barely care to list your name on the paper. And that's *if* the research isn't scooped by another lab...

Re:and?

[delong]

This actually is true. Advanced societies that are governed by the rule of law and that require complex rules will naturally require more lawyers. Most people think of Law and Order when someone says "lawyer", but that ignores the far larger practice area of corporate and commercial law that governs extremely complex commercial behavior that makes a modern capitalism economy hum. Nobody thinks about the Uniform Commercial Code as a vital piece of maintaining civilization, but it is.

Besides that, medicine and law are recession proof. Hell, they are nuclear-war proof.

The payoff probably isn't worth it

[zullnero]

I know a lot of guys with grad degrees in the tech field who are making as much as guys with BA's (or less in some cases). It looks impressive on a resume, but there isn't an automatic payoff like with the medical or legal professions. Unless someone wants to develop their own product or do research for a major corporation, there's little reason to spend 3-4 more years and come out. Guys with BA's have been out for a few years and already have industry experience under their belts, and that's worth a whole lot more in the consulting business than a thesis paper on "the practical applications of sight tracking optics in regards to voice activated GUI systems", unless that's the main product of the company you're trying to get in with.

But I know a few companies offhand that will hire a PhD on the spot...but those companies don't really make anything nor do they pay very much. They are patent houses.

Re:90% of those who apply are probably from India.

[The One and Only]

I don't see where he had a problem with it, either. The difference between you and him isn't that you don't have a problem with it--it's that you aren't curious about why it is. As an academic, it's rather odd for you to assume that curiosity implies anything more sinister.

Re:Unprepared

[servognome]

Because Engineering is hard. Our precious little snowflakes are growing up so pampered from real difficulty or challenge that something like a Masters in Engineering is out of their league.

It's not difficulty its opportunity. Most Americans who get undergraduate engineering degrees don't continue their education because there are plenty of entry level jobs available.

Why is that?

[djupedal]

"All the students come here to study and there are only 7 US citizens in the engineering program this year. Why is that?"

Less than 20% of the MBA's in India are employable. They skate thru school, sharing test answers and learning little. The system there makes no effort except to get them out the door. The educational system only wants to say how many have been produced, happy to ignore that the certificates are worthless.

The individuals that recognize the travesty and know that the system in the USA is legitimate by comparison, spread the word. The ones that can come over do it for the legitimacy and the true value of an educational system rooted in honesty, hard work and individual betterment.

The scale of the Indian & Chinese populations means that what is a small number over there seems large in comparison here.

Re:90% of those who apply are probably from India.

[sayfawa]

Yeah but, to be fair, this is slashdot. Everything has an element of complaining. If I were just curious about grad school stats I'd ask in a grad forum. I'd only ask here if I wanted a bunch of cynical worst-case-scenario answers, some complaints about the American school system, and a side dish of thinly veiled racism/xenophobia.

TV for one.

[xigxag]

It's very rare to see a fictional TV show revolving around an engineer, mathematician, physicist or hard science major of any kind. The only counterexample I can think of offhand is Ross from Friends, but to the extent that his job was mentioned at all it was usually in some ridiculous context. Contrast that with the hundreds of shows there have been about doctors, lawyers, judges, financiers and reporters. Hence, those professions are considered sexy and lucrative, even when they aren't particularly so (public defenders and beat reporters), whereas scientists are considered obscure and arcane at best, geeky and borderline irresponsible at worst. The one looming exception is the astronaut/astrophysicist type on sci-fi shows, but what they tend to do, blast through galaxies and meet aliens, is something so unrealistic that it doesn't lend itself to employment aspirations.

Of course, it's not just Americans who watch TV but the problem particular to Americans is that their real-life experience seems to parallel what they see on TV, they deal with plenty of brokers, doctors and lawyers in real life and have little contact with engineers and scientists. Americans also pay their doctors and lawyers extremely highly. In other countries doctors and lawyers are not quite so highly compensated and engineers have higher social status overall.

Re:med school has fewer? Hahahaahaa...

[WrongMonkey]

I'm going to second this with a caveat: don't go into research if the only you're interested in is money. If you really love research for its own sake, then there are still plenty of opportunities. Get a good PhD adviser and do a bit of work to prove yourself, then you can pretty much work on whatever projects interest you. If you can work on things you find rewarding, travel to conferences and have the respect of your peers, what more do you want in life?

Spending your time chasing the next Big Thing that going to make Lots Of Money is the fast track for a mid-life crisis.

Re:and?

[aurispector]

As a practicing dentist I can positively say that health care is NOT recession proof. I have seen lots of folks with untreated or undertreated medical conditions when they lack insurance or the resources for treatment. Health care is less and less of a good deal for Doctors of all types because of decreasing insurance payments and increasing hassle.

Elsewhere in this discussion it is being said that the purpose of higher education is to earn more money. This may be true for some, but it's also true that education allows you to do something more interesting or fulfilling.

Regarding the original topic, my graduating class was about 1/3 were asian immigrants with a sprinkling of middle easterners, africans and caribbean types. Of the asians the majority were Vietnamese (incidentally these folks were the most patriotic Americans you might find - they love it here) I don't know of anyone that went back to their country of origin.

Irony

[SwedishChef]

We educate the people who will eventually cripple this country economically. The next thing you know we'll be giving weapons to people who will eventually attack us.

Oh, wait....

Re:Simple

[hazem]

American Public Education SUCKS.

I JUST had a conversation yesterday with a feisty physics professor I used to work with, and about this subject. The kids he gets for his freshman physics classes are so woefully unprepared and are unable to think very creatively.

As an example, he throws out questions like "what is the square root of 3 times the square root of 3 divided by two", and they start pulling out their calculators - and they're amazed that it can be solved so easily without one.

He wrote a simple problem on the board and told the students he wanted them to work on it for the next class. The question he got right away was, "Is this graded". It wasn't. The next class came and nobody had done it - because it wasn't graded. So he gave them 10 minutes to write a solution and told them it was "for a grade". Several of the students were outraged and told him, "you can't do that!"

He said you basically have to walk them through everything you want them to do with very explicit instructions otherwise they simply won't do anything. "They're not dumb.", he said, "They just have no motivation or creative spark to do anything they're told explicitly to do."

So, I agree with you (as would this prof) that the American education system is failing our kids.

Re:You have asked and answered your own question

[AuMatar]

Sure you could- pay me twice what I'm paying now, and I'll leave my job in a heartbeat. If I don't have the required experience, I know a dozen or so people happy to work on the same terms, all of them strong programmers and problem solvers.

What, your company doesn't want to pay well over 200K/year? Oh so it is about the money after all.

That tag...

[afabbro]

If someone used a tag called "becauseindiansaredumb" or "becausemexicansaredumb", everyone here would be up in arms.

College Greed Theory

[Dun Malg]

there are only 7 US citizens in the engineering program this year. Why is that? An engineering grad student friend of mine has a theory about this:

Engineering education is in high demand. Medicine, you can learn anywhere, as evidenced by the hordes of doctors in the US HMO medical system who only barely speak or understand English. Law? What would a Chinese or Indian national do with a US law degree? Engineering, though.... the US is the place to get an engineering degree. Subsequently, there is a lot of competition to get into the limited space available. The reason colleges are so willing to fill their slots with foreigners even though their supposed purpose is to educate residents of the state (which supports the school with tax money) is that foreigners are considered "out of state students". Out of state students pay extremely high tuition compared to state residents, originally under the theory that this would limit the number of outsiders coming in to take advantage of a state-supported school and then leave the state to go home after. But over the last few decades, state universities have turned from state subsidized places of higher learning intended to increase the education level of state residents, into state subsidized businesses trying to maximize their tuition, grant, investment, and patent income. They are required to take a certain number of state resident students, but they strive to maximize their profit by taking as few as possible. This is the "greed" motivation.

As a side note, he adds that Indian immigrants are usually under enormous pressure from their parents to succeed in school, and that the Chinese students are scared to death of failing because that means it's right back to China where they'll end up assigned as the Third Assistant Injection Molding Technician in a plastic bucket factory in Shanghai. Subsequently, they have a tendency to vastly outperform "locals" and make up the majority of students.

the cost and value of a grad student

[j1m 5n0w]

I don't know about taxes, but given an average grad student stipend, that's insignificant compared to both the cost of the education and the value of their research. In a grad school I attended, our stipend was about $20,000 a year, and I was told the cost per grad student per year to the institution was about $60,000 a year. (Where does that other $40,000 go? Advisor's salaries, class tuition, IT costs, buildings maintenance, etc...)

PhD programs are not like undergrad, where you learn a bunch of stuff and work on mostly contrived problems and you aren't expected to contribute anything new to the field. It's more like a job where you solve hard problems for the people funding your education in exchange for grant money. Typical funding sources are NSF, DARPA, NIH, and sometimes corporations (IBM, Microsoft, and Intel all fund quite a bit of research).

What the US government gets out of the grant money it spends is better solutions to hard research problems, some of which have significant economic value. In that respect, individual students are a bit of a gamble, but overall I'd say it's a net gain. If it's a Chinese or Indian that does the actual work, who cares? The real idiocy of the program though is that we often don't allow them to stay once they've completed their degree. Oh no, we can't have highly educated foreigners in our country competing for valuable US jobs! Never mind that there really aren't enough PhDs in the world to make any significant difference to the employment statistics.

the problem is that they usually don't stay

[r00t]

We make it hard for them to become citizens. These are the people we should want most.

Having them leave, then compete with us, is not good.

Re:the problem is that they usually don't stay

[damn_registrars]

I've seen that firsthand myself. I'm working on my PhD in biochemistry, and I know another student in my department who is months away from his defense. He came here from China, and speaks excellent English. But yet he has not been able to obtain citizenship. This actually has larger problems than just retention, because non-citizens cannot apply for grant money from most federal agencies, which of course makes a career in academia unlikely.

As the previous post said, these are the very people we should want most.

Re:Because a majority of US citizens are poor?

[kramulous]

Nicely worded. I think you're right. From watching afar, there seems to be some unwarranted scare-mongering going on in the US (and here as well). Not only in education but in many other sectors. There is now some dynamic load balancing going on globally and panicking is not going to achieve anything. There will always be opportunities for countries to specialise (particularly the US, ie. what is wrong with education as an export? Education has been my country's second largest cash cow industry for the last twenty years). People here are bitching that the jobs are going overseas. They are, but we are also experiencing massive growth in other areas, investment in infrastructure in developed countries, etc.
 
Nothing to see here, move on.

Re:You have asked and answered your own question

[homer_ca]

It's not just that a US graduate degree helps foreign workers get an H1-B visa. It's that a student visa is the only way for these people to live in the US, and while they're here they have time to learn English, get accultured to America, and make connections that'll help them find employment later. Because of that, foreign students are more motivated to overlook the sacrifices of a PhD grad student's life, the long hours, low pay, and the professor getting the credit for the research. A US citizen doesn't need the visa.

The Key is Lack of Need

[FreeKill]

The reason is truly lack of need. For an Engineer or Programmer, there really is no reason to pursue anything higher then a bachelor degree unless you are interested in becoming a faculty member or going after government funding for your research. Take computer science for example and compare it to Biology. In Biology, you really don't get into the practical aspects of biological work until you hit grad school. Only big research labs have the equipment, money, and expertise to give you experience in things like Mass Spectrometry, Microarrays, etc. Computer Science, on the other hand, your PhD level work is no different then your undergrad work except that you are working on something you're interested in and you get to dedicate your time at it. You're definitely not learning how to be a better programmer anymore than someone who takes a job is learning how to become a better programmer...That's why engineers and programmers can get a Bachelor's degree and have very successful careers while Biologists on average require significant graduate studies to reach the same opportunities...

Re:90% of those who apply are probably from India.

[XopherMV]

Most Americans are probably happy with just an undergrad degree and don't want to go to grad school.

Exactly. Americans find perfectly good engineering jobs with "just" a bachelor's degree. There aren't enough jobs which require advanced degrees in engineering to make it worth the time to give up 2-3 years of engineering paychecks, pay for college, pay for books, pay for living expenses, and earn those advanced degrees. More than likely, you'd graduate with a master's or a PhD and work at the same job you could get with a bachelor's degree.

On the other hand, foreigners looking to immigrate to the United States work under the assumption that if they go to school here and earn one of our advanced degrees, then we'd be more likely to allow them to stay once their studies are complete. THAT is why foreigners outnumber Americans in these topics. It's not because they're smarter, not because they love engineering more, and not because education is better in their country. It's because they want to immigrate here.

Consider this

[EriDay]

My niece and I both go to the same Big 10 university. I'm a PhD. CS, she's a law student. The university gave her a full ride scholarship that does not require that she work. I am required to work 20 hours a week for my stipend. The university gave me a desk in an office. I am the only English speaker in the office. There is a computer on my desk (one that nobody else wants anymore), just no display, keyboard, or mouse. If I want to work in my office I must bring my own personally purchased laptop. So I work from home where I have dual monitors, a mouse and keyboard. The university gave my niece a new laptop when she began law school. The question should be why do universities treat their domestic engineering grad students like crap.

Training Cheap Labor?

[polyex]

With all the outsourcing, especially in engineering I can't help suspect that is a contributing factor (all the Indians is a clue). We also live in a country that is full of religous nuts (40 some odd percent or something think the world is a few thousand years old). Science is probably not high on the list for these ignorant folks. Another factor is with all the outsourcing, we have developed an attitude in the industry that somehow its better to get an MBA or be a manager than an engineer. They actually think they are smarter (this was always the way). The fact the business programs in university are far simpler than science makes it more tempting for the lazy. Americans are going to pay in the long run for this, especially when we see the Chinese land on Mars or something first.

US Grad Schools are mostly full of Americans

[bigbigbison]

In the humanities grad school departments are full of citizens of the USA. In my department there are as many people from Europe as there are from Asia and combined they make up less than 10% of the department's graduate students. There are just as many from Korea as there are from China (one each at the moment I think) and there aren't any from India. In my Master's program at a different school the only international graduate students I ran into were from Canada and that was mainly because the school was something like 3 hours away from the Canadian border.

Just because there are a lot of non-US citizens in some departments doesn't mean that there are in every department. Now why certain departments are more likely to have international students than others is a different question.

Re:and?

[ericartman]

Yeah I used to say this, until I had to go to court over some serious money. I hired an ex pit bull and when the dust settled I sent her flowers and will never be able to thank her enough. Yeah the ones (lawyers) that go into government, seem to end up jerks IMO. When you just gotta have one though they are worth their weight in gold.

Cart

Re:90% of those who apply are probably from India.

[Foobar of Borg]

Exactly. Americans find perfectly good engineering jobs with "just" a bachelor's degree. There aren't enough jobs which require advanced degrees in engineering to make it worth the time to give up 2-3 years of engineering paychecks, pay for college, pay for books, pay for living expenses, and earn those advanced degrees. More than likely, you'd graduate with a master's or a PhD and work at the same job you could get with a bachelor's degree.

Actually, a Master's degree in an engineering field does generally correlate to an increase in pay and position. It's the Ph.D. that's not really useful unless you are going into academia or into some very specialized sort of field. In Chemistry, it's actually one step above that. You usually need a master's degree to get a decent job (though you can get by with just a bachelors), and a Ph.D. does really help since you can be a senior scientist in a lab. Although, from what I have heard, there are actually not enough BS/MS chemists to fill the bench work positions at a lot of chemical and pharmaceutical companies.

Plus, in a lot of jobs, especially with bigger companies, you can get a job with a BS or MS degree and then go on to study later with the company's help. That's probably the best way to go about getting an advanced degree and getting decently paid at the same time. Unless you study physics. Then, you absolutely need a Ph.D. and you should get used to poverty :-p

Re:Teachers don't teach

[be-fan]

Teachers, not professors ;)

The US K-12 system blows. The US university system is pretty much the best in the world. This leads to lots of foreign students taking advantage of the quality of American higher education. Entertainingly enough, it also leads to lots of professors having to undo the brain-damage the K-12 system inflicted on students.

Re:and?

[Lumpy]

Problem is dental care is horribly overpriced. And insurance companies and other treat it as if it is a "cosmetic" service instead of a real health issue. Bad teeth = bad health yet dential insurance is the crappiest on the planet and outside of the rich you are hard pressed to find someone with good healthy teeth. I had to spend well over $10,000 on my daughters orthodontics, that is insane for a bunch of wires and superglued on blocks for the wires. at the time I was very much lower middle class ($60,000 a year) and could not even think of affording invisiline or the other upscale stuff.

I deal with construction people daily and 7 out of 10 of them you can easily tell they have a bad infection going on in their mouth as you can smell it in their breath. (yes you can smell it, some are so bad that a mouth full of tictacs cant mask it) That is insanely high, yet the dentists and dental associations really don't seem to care about afford ability to dental care. when a patient is told, $3500.00 to save that tooth and put a crown on it or $490.00 to yank it out. Guess what the poor person ($35,000 or less) is going to do?

Re:Because a majority of US citizens are poor?

[Pollardito]

Most Americans don't go to grad school because there is little economic incentive to do so. The US economy only supports so many technocrats. The presence of so many Indian and Chinese students in US science and technical grad programs is a natural function of those nations' evolving manufacturing and services sectors. They simply need to train more technocrats because their sectors are growing compared to those sectors in the US, which are economically mature. if most students are like i was, a part of the problem is that there isn't a lot of discussion in undergraduate classes about why those students should stay for grad school, what money is available to fund those studies, and what sort of jobs one can expect to get with a graduate degree. i was lucky and made my own closer contacts with a couple of faculty who did tell me all this independently, but i bet most people probably never hear the "sales pitch". and this is coming from someone who did really well in undergrad studies, if no one at the university thought to approach me then there's no way they're approaching people that are more toward the border of graduate qualification but still might succeed there.

two other factors that i haven't seen mentioned are the steady increase in student loan burdens and the fact that a foreign student dominated graduate culture tends to attact more of the same. students are coming out of undergrad programs with more and more debt, and it's hard for those students to think about anything but getting into the workforce and paying that off now. the fact that they can delay repayment and earn enough money in graduate assistantships to keep the debt from increasing isn't as well advertised as it could be.

the OP stated that he's one of 7 american students in a 90% foreign class which is pretty similar to what i encountered in a CS graduate program. graduate classes are really very much harder than undergraduate classes, and i don't care who you are you're probably going to get stuck on parts of the curriculum and have to work through it with other people to fully grasp the concepts (and, no, i'm not talking about cheating on your homework). in my experience the american and non-american graduate students are two pretty disparate groups, and being a part of the larger of those two orbits has to be a huge advantage when you need to tap those resources. that's setting aside the fact that graduate students effectively live on campus in their study areas and labs, so having a large support group in that environment is huge.

Because a U.S. undergrad degree is enough

[UninvitedCompany]

That's easy. Anyone with a modicum of talent and an undergraduate engineering degree from a U.S. college or university can find just as good a job as they would with a graduate degree.

With an engineering degree from a non-U.S. institution, that's not true, especially for jobs in the U.S. Hence, people from many other countries come to the United States to get a graduate degree so they can open the door that a U.S. undergrad degree would open.

The only jobs where a graduate engineering degree is required or will help are teaching positions and very high-level technical jobs which also require unusual talent and decades of experience.

Our schools suck... thats why.

[JRHelgeson]

In a study of the seven leading industrialized nations, the United States scored dead last in mathematics. However, the students involved in the study ranked first place in how confident they FELT about their mathematic skills.

They keep lowering the educational standards in order to keep kids passing through the system. This system, however, keeps focusing on making sure the kids feel good without ever having them accomplish anything. Compounding the problem is that everyone gets an award, so the ninth place trophy winner is just as good as the first place trophy winner. You take the kids that really do have talent and try hard and tell them that they're just as much a no-talent bozo as the kids who ride the short bus to school. They learn nothing, but damn if they don't feel good about themselves. The education system's modern bubble-wrap mentality of no losing, no disappointments, no harsh reality checks has provided a surplus of of girls who think dressing like a slut somehow empowers them, guys who have been beaten down into spineless wimps and that the whole world stops if any of them are ever offended.

I'm seeing these kids enter into college where their brains are mush. They're not stupid - they've just never been challenged. They expect to get a C grade for simply turning in the assignment, and an A for effort.

Because US citizens see what happens to PhDs

[Wansu]

Most US citizens with PhDs are underemployed.

The Ph.D. Glut Revisited

More right wing Ostriching

[Travoltus]

As to India or China "surpassing" the US, what does that mean? Surpassing the US in what? Manufacturing? Good! That's economic specialization that creates efficiencies for everyone. Not only is talk of "surpassing" mere economic scare-mongering (did we learn nothing from such silliness when the Japanese were supposed to "surpass us" in the 1980s? Where are the Japanese today? Economic stagnation), it makes erroneous straight-line projections that ignore very important long term considerations of demographics and other factors. The US economy will be a large and important factor in the global economy for the foreseeable future. But the global economy continues to grow and evolve and the US economy continues to change from its post-WWII dominance (unsurprising since it was the only intact industrial economy on the planet) to an important player in a dynamic specialized global economy.

1) China is already attacking the United States electronically. They're hacking into our military systems and developing anti-satellite weaponry. An anti-democratic hyperfascist dictatorship that harvests its own prisoners for involuntary organ donations is not the kind of country any sensible person wants to surpass us technologically. Especially when they're attacking us on the sly. Documentation: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9dba9ba2-5a3b-11dc-9bcd-0000779fd2ac.html

2) Japan has surpassed us. Have you seen the high tech gadgets they have, as compared to us? Hello, bullet train? If Japan were to militarize right now, we'd be in a heap of it up to our necks. Oh and let us not also discuss how Japan has utterly gutted America's automobile industry. Japan, surpass America? They did that long ago, economic stagnation or not. Do you need me to provide you documentation on the superiority of the Japanese automobile industry, and the insolvency of America's once dominant counterpart?

3) Go look up China and "sterilization accounts". In short, they are preparing to be able to sell off US debt and dollars without themselves being harmed (whether they'll actually do it or not is another issue). In fact, China has threatened to do just that to America.
Documentation: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml&site=1&page=0

If China surpasses the US, they clearly intend to wield their power over us in a very hostile way.

But you being a greedy capitalism-at-all-cost fanatic cannot grasp the concept of national security. Just wait until oil is traded on the Euro. Then you'll understand.. the hard way.

Re:Because a majority of US citizens are poor?

[Sj0]

US GDP is pretty badly skewed by the massive amounts of debt created by the US government.

Take into consideration that when a bank has a dollar in savings, it can lend someone some ridiculous amount like 250, and you'll realise that the 500 billion dollars a year Americans borrow leads to some serious green moving around the economy in a very bad way.

I wouldn't be surprised if some country out there, especially one like China, who holds tonnes of US debt, could get some amazing growth very quickly. After all, the US gained it's power by industrialization in the world wars. They became the largest arms dealer in the world, and while countries like Britain became debt ridden, the US became the largest debtor.

Personally, given the circumstances, I'd say the US is entering the perfect storm leading to it's own demise.

Re:I Feel Ill.

[cHiphead]

If he is smart enough to contribute to slashdot comments then he must be smart enough to get a job making more than minimum wage. /sarcasm

Seriously, pulling $10k/year is, frankly, retarded. In fact, if you DO have the mental capacity to post to slashdot (and as a result can likely browse and search the internet and use a word processor), you can make, minimum, $12/hour even with a dinky receptionist type job. Get off your ass and get a real job, its really not that hard.

Sorry to sound so harsh but even at my lowest paid total crap jobs I still pulled in $18-24K/year.

If the original poster has some sort of outstanding reasons (handicapped, mental health, etc), then perhaps theres some level of excuse, but GODDAMN.

Cheers.

Re:I Feel Ill.

[Antique Geekmeister]

New York, San Francisco, LA, and many cities have a monthly rent of more than $1200 for a decent one-bedroom apartment within commuting distance of downtown, or for a cheap small house (if you can find one!). Add a small family, and it becomes unaffordable for someone even making $60,000/year.

Yes, I'm afraid it's lower middle class in those urban areas.

Re:and?

[dkleinsc]

I don't know about everywhere else, but in the Rust Belt 60K/yr is considered solidly professional-grade, a bit above the median rate for programmers, sys admins, and other professional workers.

I decided to look up the stats on this issue, and this is what I found: According to the US Census 60K a year would put you well into the second-highest quintile for household income, which is generally upper-middle class. Also, 60K a year is higher than the median rate for those with 4-year degrees. Ohio is close to the middle of the median income range, so I'd say the 60K/yr is a bit higher than a large number of smart people are getting.

This sounds to me like you're suffering from the natural bias that comes from being used to a certain income level, namely thinking that you're an "average" person. You aren't, according to the statistics you're doing well above average. This isn't surprising, a lot of smart people do better than average, but don't think for a minute that's average. I've seen this sort of thing before: I had a college roommate who thought he was part of an average family, both of his parents made 6 figures.

Re:I Feel Ill.

[vertinox]

Get off your ass and get a real job, its really not that hard.

Actually, it really depends on where you live. In a rural area, you might be lucky to get $20,000 for a high end job with a degree in some areas. From a personal experience I grew up in a place where the furniture and textile markets had collapsed due to foreign imports and there was massive unemployment due to factory closures. However, it was a big government town (3 major state facilities in the county... 1 being a prison) so I was lucky and got a job as a computer tech early on. However, I will admit I got paid more as a temp job as a grocery bagger in a major metropolitan area 5 years later.

Anyways... I did my best to get out of that hell hole and pretty much for the sheer fact I knew people living in a metro city in another state who I could sleep on their couch for 6 months unemployed and doing crappy jobs let me have the ability to search work in that area that helped me start a career in technology which eventually netted me a job that paid more than my dad got in our home town (considering he had a masters degree and I dropped out of college has to say something).

Of course this is anecdotal but so is your observation. It really depends on where you live on your job prospects and income.

That said... Living expenses make me wonder if I really make more here than I would be had I never moved. Of course, if I moved to NYC I'd even get paid more but I'd make less due to rent.

Re:and?

[Anonymous Coward]

An "advanced" society will have people who have internalized the law -- they don't need others to interpret it for them. Do YOU need a law against killing? Of course not -- you know better.

This utopian view has been proposed frequently through history and has, so far, always been shown wrong. Plato's republic, Marx's commune, Pullman. They just don't work because they all depend on the citizens having a common value system and common ideals, and that just won't happen, regardless of how "advanced," apparently in the Brave New World sense, a society becomes.

YOU may know better than to kill, in all circumstances, but most people have something they value higher than the prohibition against murder-their kids, their spouse, their own person... The threshold at which it's justifiable to take another life is different for everyone; likewise the threshold at which it's justifiable to steal, lie, cheat, or otherwise step outside of the rules we've all basically internalized. The proliferation of laws reflects increasing effort to codify the "internal" value system of a heterogeneous population.

If "advanced" cultures are so homogeneous as not to need laws, then I never want to be part of one.

Re:and?

[aurispector]

Wow. I can't get over the number of incorrect assumptions you are making.

First, I have lots of un- or underinsured patients that can't afford perio or endo treatment; this problem gets worse during recessions.

Second, the study proving that periodontal disease CAUSES heart disease has yet to be completed AFAIK it's due in '08. (Either that or the guys at U. Penn don't know what they're talking about) Yes, there are studies showing a CORRELATION between the two, but as we all know, correlation is NOT causation.

Third, who says I wasn't taught about dentures? I do a TON of dentures but if you think about it, dentures indicate a failure of previous dental treatment. My practice suffers because I could earn a lot more money providing perio, endo, implant and crown & bridge services to a given patient. How much do you earn doing extractions and dentures? How much would you earn doing more complex treatments that would preserve natural dentition?

Re:You have asked and answered your own question

[Courageous]

The other poster is correct. Many universities have started glossing that sort of stuff over. It's a shame really. It all dates back to the .COM era, where the universities accepted industry opinion that they should be churning out Java "just a programmers". While I don't disagree with this, really, it went a bit too far in the glossing. Where'd all the computer scientists go?

I suppose I can accept a programmer that knows the specific purpose of each container in the container classes library, even if the skill of implementing them properly is forgotten. But that's not computer science, and I'd just as soon have more computer scientists -cum- software engineers than boiler plate workers.

BTW, you're going to find that when you look into the most recent generation of computer people, the true "black belts" are not where you'd expect. They are not the computer scientists, but the mashers. These are the kids who born into the net, and are Zen masters of the process of rip, burn and play in coding. While their answer "I'd just look that up" happens to coincide with an old stodgy lame interview defense, they take this to an entirely new level. You might want to probe around there and see what you can turn up.

As for your graphics programmers who can't handle trig, linear algebra, and quats, well. Not sure what to say about that.

Finally. You've gotta have employees. So. Use this approach:

1. Try to determine their work ethic.
2. Try to determine their IQ.
3. Train where needed.

By and large a highly intelligent hard worker won't need much of #3.

C//

Only have to ask Old Engineers why law and medicin

[richardlvance]

I graduated with a BSE in 1973 and later received an MBA. In my wide experience an engineer has about 15 good years before the $ increases cease and the juicy assignments start flowing to new grads. The terminal phase of an engineer is management and he will never equal his law and medicine alumni in wages earned. There is no respect for engineering in America, you will never see a 'Marcus Welby, PE" show on TV. Until one actually has to have a PE license to practice engineering this will not change. Corporate America has always controlled the engineering salaries by manipulating supply and demand. Now there is unlimited supply from India, China, and the like. So the "smarter" Americans go into Law and Medicine so they can make money from those newly minted foreign born engineers. As an aside I would recommend that the new grads go into international finance and move to London.

Cheers,
Old Engineer

The answer is simple economics

[Ironpoint]

The opportunity cost is much higher for US students who can directly enter the high paying US workforce after a Bachelors. The opportunity cost for overseas students is lower. Graduate school is a ticket to get into the US and stay in the US for some foreign students.

Re:on paranoia

[j1m 5n0w]

There's no point in pretending to be a scientist while actually believing universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster or some similar creature.

Being a scientist does not preclude one from believing things that are outside the domain of science. It's important to know what fits inside the domain of science and what doesn't, and not to confuse those things (especially when attempting to convince other scientists of the correctness of one's own research). However, there is no requirement whatsoever that a person has to believe that science is the only form of truth in order to be a scientist. Science is powerful but is also quite limiting. Science only provides insight into how the world works, it does not tell you what to do about it, or provide distinctions like good or bad or right or wrong. We need other belief systems for that.

As we are speaking of tolerance (or the lack thereof), it's actually the religions of the world which are the incorporated intolerance. You can't cry for religious tolerance if you (respectively the vast majority of people sharing your religious oppinions) don't provide ANY in return. Just as a recent example, you might want to check this pope Benedict's blurb. And no, I don't buy the vicious back-pedalling which started shortly after he gave that speech of his.

You are attacking a straw man. I am not Catholic, I don't pay much attention to the pope, and I don't approve of religious intolerance, whether it is done by Christians, atheists, muslims, agnostics, whoever. I don't agree with the pope (in fact if I correctly understand what he is saying I think he's being intolerant) but if he wants to say I'm not part of the real church, that's his business. He's entitled to his opinions. And you and I are free to criticize them. But please don't make the mistake of thinking he speaks for all religious people, or all Christians. I don't even think it's safe to assume he speaks for all Catholics.

The viewpoints of religion and science are not compatible. Period.

I don't really see why that has to be the case. Some religions may be incompatible with science. Many practice religion in a way that is not incompatible. If I believe that Jesus died for my sins, what difference does that make to my scientific beliefs? None at all, as far as I can tell.

The ID crowd has managed quite successfully to mud the waters good enough in order to seduce quite a lot "poor souls" by pretending to be science.

So, this really isn't about science at all, it's about the perception of science within popular culture. I agree that most people don't understand science very well, and if they are unable to recognize that non-falsifiable theories (such as that the universe was made by an intelligent creator) are not real science, then we really need a better understanding of science in this country. The solution is better education, not telling religious people they aren't welcome in the sciences.

Re:and?

[mikiN]

I'm afraid the situation is much more dark and bleak (sorry for the pun) and may ultimately lie with the health insurance companies. Where I live, many of the common procedures have no or very little coverage, even with a full dental plan. Dentures, on the other hand, are fully covered by any basic plan.