Slashdot Mirror
Internet Explorer Drops WGA Requirement
Kelson writes "The Internet Explorer team has updated the installer for IE7. Mostly they've adjusted a few defaults and updated their tutorials, but one change stands out: The installer no longer requires Windows Genuine Advantage validation. Almost a year after its release, IE7 has yet to overtake its predecessor. Was WGA holding back a tide of potential upgrades, or did it just send people over to alternative browsers?"
Lets see how long does wine take to install ie7 now ;)
It's finally clear where Microsoft's priorities lie. You can pirate until they have a dominant place in the market.
Well, I think this is a push to increase security; it's harder to get any of those crappy ActiveX exploits through IE7 because of it's insane "please confirm installing a plugin 3 times" methodology. With WGA enabled you have all your legitimate Windows users using IE7 (or at least having it installed, remember IE7's browser components are used throughout XP - help files, embedded in other apps..) but everyone pirating it still uses the previous versions with no security updates installed.
You could easily claim (and be right) that disallowing the vast majority of pirated Windows copies the latest security updates contributes to the spread of viruses, trojans and generally misappropriation of networks.
After all, until Firefox implements some kind of MSHTML.DLL replacement scheme (would this be so difficult, really?), it is not possible to completely remove Internet Explorer from a standard Windows system (WinXP Lite etc. notwithstanding) and have it still function the same way.
Someone should port the Wine MSHTML.DLL back to Windows.. and have it use Gecko, in order that we completely reduce the requirement of Windows on the obvious things. I think it'd have to be modified to use ActiveX controls though, there was a project for this once, I really can't work out why they abandoned it though (ActiveX security policies may be easily broken etc. but it would have the happy benefit of enabling everyone with IE-requiring internet banking etc. to use those sites, too!)
I basically think if the guys at Firefox were really serious about putting themselves as a true alternative to IE, they would focus a little more on truly replacing IE rather than just being installed side-by-side.
...wouldn't have known it was there. The WGA requirement means that you actively have to log into Windows Update and say "yes, I want IE7" or actively locate an IE7 installer. Your average computer user won't even know which version of IE they're using, much less will have any idea there's a new version out and why they should bother installing it.
If IE7 doesn't have the WGA thing, then presumably it's going to be automatically installed with the rest of the updates whihc most users have set to automatic (since that's how the computer came configured).
So yes, expect the installed base to increase significantly, and I imagine a reasonably increase in usage as well - alot of people will find it better than any other browser they're using (stupid, uncustomisable button layout notwithstanding).
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
In my company, all the web based application that doesn't work well in IE7 and firefox were application developed with IEism and activeX components... Some have some minor displays bugs but vastly due to some IEism corrected in IE7 in the interpretation of the CSS :/
IES4Linux installs IE on wine in a matter of minutes, no WGA required ... :)
:)
In fact, I ran WGA a few months ago under wine, it validated my non-existent Windows license
Good thing my "windows" machines don't run windows. :-)
yeah I know it's cliche to post about running another OS, but honestly, what's the motivation to run windows anymore?
I recently swapped gentoo for ubuntu on my laptop, and out of the box ubuntu booted up to Gnome, had a bunch of useful software installed, was easy to add more OSS to it, it detected my wireless card, and even found my access point right away, sound works, etc. If I take an XP SP2 CD and put it in my laptop, it will fail to find my wireless AND sound. Yet, a free ubuntu CD does that and more. I just don't get what would motivate me to run Windows. This isn't a fanboy issue, it's just pragmatism. Windows is shit by comparison.
As for the issue of IE7, to be honest I'd rather run IE4 than either IE6 or IE7. Loads a hell of a lot quicker, and the interface is a bit more sane. Even without tabbed browsing it's still better than 7.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
You know people won't "upgrade" until they are forced to.
People simply fear change. If it is different than what they are used to then they will resist it and say that the new way is somehow worse than the old.
Personally, I don't care which flavor of browser people use, however, I would have to say that I trust IE7 more than >=IE6.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Same problem at my work. Loads of shitty web-based corporate apps rely on IE6-isms that won't work in IE7, resulting in the entire enterprise being forced to use IE6 (plus severe update lags due to inefficient and ineffective testing of patches). As such, we've had a couple of breaches via 0-day exploits targetting unpatched IE6 installs.
Yay for the Intranet Microsoft Built.
Oddity: IT staff don't eat their own dog food, and everyone uses FF whilst telling the users they can't have it because intranet apps "don't work with firefox". However, bring IE into the equation and the same staff will tell you "the app is shit and won't work with IE". Odd how such a pro-MS shop changes the burden of proof depending on whether the target is asociated with Linux or not
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
Every alternate day I choose alternative browsers.
Did I get that right?
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
yeah I know it's cliche to post about running another OS, but honestly, what's the motivation to run windows anymore?
If you can't figure it out after this being the topic of discussion every single day on Slashdot, at least accept people have different needs from each other and stop asking the same question like a broken record.
Well, at least the rendering engine seems to work... http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Beta
Move Sig. For great justice.
M$'s website point-blank refuses to work with any other browser.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Seriously, that's the complete list these days as far as I can tell. Not good news for Microsoft.
Read my blog.
alternative |ôltrntiv|
...
adjective [ attrib. ]
(of one or more things) available as another possibility : the various alternative methods for resolving disputes | "Microsoft Internet Explorer is teh sux. Luckily, there are various alternative web browsers available."
"available as another possibility"
[/dumbass]
Um...no, that's "alternative." If you're going to be a word-usage Nazi, get it right first.
Unless you're trying to suggest that they're switching back and forth repeatedly.
The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
As an IT guy in a big organisation, via the marvels of SMS2003 I've been shown to have Firefox on my machine. I've been asked to remove it on grounds of security...sigh.
(There is *kind* of a point to this in that we're ultralocked down for most stuff - can't change proxy in IE etc, and FF isn't centrally managed the way our standard software is. In this case it's just a particularly amusing example..)
That is no excuse. You can load up a computer with all the software you're likely to need without ever paying a single penny for it, and without going against the wishes of the copyright holders.
As an aside, using serious alternatives to Microsoft products will most certainly annoy Microsoft far more than using pirated copies of Microsoft products ever could.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I know its slightly off topic, but I still don't have IE7 installed on my only windows computer and won't until I hear from a reliable source that the bug mentioned here http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/26/1719236 has been fixed. I use firefox and am not even going to consider upgrading software I don't use to a more secure version if it introduces a security hole in software I do use.
thats right, I rarely use capitals. deal with it. but don't mistake my laziness for stupidity
Actually, its not that other browsers refuse to work with it, its that Microsoft uses ActiveX to run Windows Update, and nobody wants to use that in alternative browsers (ActiveX is one of the problems with MSIE security model).
Btw, if you REALLY REALLY want to use an alternative browser to run Windows update, you can always use IETAB and run an instance of MSIE inside a tab in Firefox.
You have to realize that in Microsoft's landscape, Windows Users are not entitled to "choose" anything. Making the choice to use Linux is insanely difficult. You grow accustomed and comfortable after a while but its still really hard. There is no free market in computers. Proliferation of IIS and ActiveX will force people to IE.
Sometimes it's worth repeating because it's a valid rhetorical question.
You can edit documents, run spreadsheets (even multiply correctly!), design software/hardware, compose music, etc, just as easily in an OSS OS as Windows. And if people stopped worshipping Redmond they'd actually realize that *they* have the power to choose, not the producers.
Why isn't photoshop ported to GNU/Linux? Because customers aren't demanding it enough. Watch people hold up updating CS, demand Linux ports, and you'll probably see it happen. But if you just blindly do what they tell you, you get less options. And in certain cases the alternatives are better. I'd rather use OO.o than MS Office. I'd rather use firefox than IE7. I'd rather use pidgin than the MSN client, I'd rather use lilypond than Finale, I'd rather use mplayer than WMP, I'd rather use a lot of things than their "traditional proprietary" counterparts.
I'd suspect for 99% of computer users out there (home users included) they could get by just as well or better with a good Linux distro than Vista. Certainly my experience with Ubuntu has been such that if you can't figure out how to use/install it, you probably won't get much out of owning a computer anyways. It's just so damn simple to use, not to mention free, and gives access to an entire library of OSS software.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I'm guessing Microsoft wanted IE7 (and some of their other apps) to follow Office 2007's lead and get rid of the menu bar. This made sense for Office because the new contextual ribbon interface negates the need for a menu bar. It was hard to believe at first, but Office 2007 really does work better without the menu bar.
However, removing the menu bar from IE7 made no sense IMO. IE7 didn't implement a ribbon interface (which wouldn't work for this app anyway), but they still removed the menu bar and seemingly tried to put all important functions on the button bar. Requiring a keyboard shorcut ("Alt") to access the menu was annoying to me and probably frustrating to novice/intermediate users.
I think this simple change will significantly improve usablility. I'll still be an Opera man, though.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
I use Firefox when I'm on a Windows machine, but I would much rather have IE7 installed than any of the previous versions of IE. I mean, you're forced to have some version of IE installed, and all versions before 7 are actually much worse than 7.
#!/
As a web developer I've been using Microsoft's own VirtualPC doodad which they provided - for free - with a working XP Pro image that had IE6 installed on it. Since you can't really run IE6 and 7 on the same machine this was useful. One IE on my real drive, the other in the virtual machine. The problem was, I really did not want to put IE7 on the real machine.
:-/
So anyway, I figured I'd just download IE7 on the virtualized XP Pro. Imagine my surprise when that copy of Windows, freshly downloaded from microsoft.com, failed to pass WGA validation!
Tredosoft came to the rescue of course with their various clever ways of getting different versions of IE to play (moderately) nicely together, but it still wasn't ideal.
Now I guess I can get IE7 to work on that XP image.
OMG!!! Ponies!!!
But then thats not really using an alternative browser.. its just hosting the IE browser in a different window. You may as well just use IE.
I.O.U One Sig.
You could also say that Microsoft should not support virus authors and DDoS-happy blackhats and so on by giving them 80% of the world's computers to easily crack. It's not always easy to find the guy who is hammering your servers or your corporation with spam, packet floods or spreading credit card information from your customers or whatever. Maybe you can find out what systems he used, but his address, to prosecute him? That could take forever.. or be never.
It's a lot more responsible to stop him from doing it so easily than to just say "our systems are insecure as shipped, if you did not buy them then you are free to contribute to the problem, and if someone cracks our insecure software on your pirate systems, why don't YOU go find them and shop them in to the police?"
It is rather common for game manufacturers to remove StarForce or other cd-tethering protection after the game has been out for a while. So, like, MS issued a no-cd patch for IE7 then?
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
...why I got last night another proposal to install MSIE7.
I was like "WTF, I already said NO. And dont remind me again AGAIN".
Hope it finally listens =)
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Why would you switch away from Gentoo? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely curious. As a long term Debian user {formerly a Mandrake user}, I tried a brief fling with Gentoo a year or so back. It did everything Debian did, but it didn't really seem to do it any better than Debian. The biggest difference seemed to be that "apt-get install foo" was replaced by "emerge foo". I put up with it till the HDD in the box died the death, then went back to Debian for its replacement.
Had I discovered Gentoo before Debian, I'm quite sure that's what I would have eventually stuck with; I had reached the limitations of Mandrake {as it was then known} and needed a more powerful system with a bigger package repository. There's little to choose between Gentoo and Debian, IMHO. And Ubuntu is really just Debian, but pre-configured a certain way.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Err... rebuild your machine and install TrustNoExe, then block the SMS client from running along with your domain logon scripts, etc.
Really useful little utility, and a good way to stop users from running unauthorized crap on their machines. The ability to block logon scripts and SMS snooping is just a nice little bonus.
Just the other day I was trying to repair a PC where IE7 was having a variety of issues. I installed Firefox, explained the benefits, and then attempted to use Firefox to download IE7 since he needed it for some apps for work. However, the WGA was failing with all the same problems that IE7 was failing with. The irony (yes yes, not the right word) of it was I was actively trying to get IE from Firefox, and MS wouldn't let me do it without getting a validation code from all the WGA nonsense.
;-)
He was happy to hear about Firefox and plans on using that now instead, and after uninstalling IE7, found IE6 to be functional enough for those few times he needs it. So, while WGA is a pain in the ass, it helped convert one more person to Firefox. So I don't know how I feel about them removing it.
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
Touche. Nothing except MSIE is EVER going to be able to run ActiveX. (Thank God)
Even though i am pro M$ (despite having a mac at home) i still find ie7 annoyingly glitchy and counterintuitive. You can't reorder feeds (and sometimes your favourites) in the side bar by drag'n'drop. Sometimes RSS entries need several clicks to launch the relevant article. And don't get me started on the whole menu/toolbar thing.
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
Someone should port the Wine MSHTML.DLL back to Windows.. and have it use Gecko, Actually, mshtml.dll.so identifies itself as "Wine Gecko", and there are references to Mozilla functions (such as 'NS_InitXPCOM2' already, so I'm sure that it already uses Mozilla libraries and code. IOW, most of this work is already done. All that would be needed is to port this to Windows.
My blog
Like many...I'm stuck using IE6 at work. Something must have changed overnight with Slashdot...maybe some weird new CSS?
Whatever it is...it is really messing up. It is hard to read any article....many comments don't appear to even have a reply button on them.
That..and I'm afraid it looks like /. has implemented a automatic PAGE REFRESH mode? I hope not..I like to keep a browser open on /. all day...but, if it starts auto-refreshing, that can look like too much surfing at work.
A the top of pages I see it autochecks an option to "Try new Slashdot discussion system". I try unchecking it each time to no-avail. I checked my preferences...and it is also set to NOT use the new system, but, it appears the new system is still being fed to me.
Please fix this...it was bad enough that the firehose page has recently been made unusable by IE6...now the normal pages are really screwing up.
I used FF, Safari, and the native KDE browsers at home...and they seem to work fine, but, I've got NO choice at work. Please make /. work like it did before. Simple HTML and CSS are just great....we don't need an ajax Slashdot..it is the content and the people that make the site.....not the fanciness of the site. Especially with all that added 'zing' messes up on a majorly used (unfortunately) browser.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Shouldn't MS be the one fixing the problems in MS software? I can see why there aren't many people volunteering to solve what is not their problem in the first place.
I'm not sure what you even mean by that? The only reason I can't run Firefox alone on a box is because some sites will only code to support IE. How is that Firefox's fault? Does that not show that Microsoft just has an unfar advantage on the market? I mean, I can't even use NetFlix' View NOW! feature through Firefox because you absolutely must use IE for whatever reason, I could go research that part, but coffee drive hasn't kicked in...I digress. The point is Firefox w/ NoScrips and ABP (sssshhhh, don't tell) by far safer than using any Microsoft product to surf the virus/spam/trojan/malicious-script laden interwebs. Boo IE. Yay beer-- er.. Firefox!
I worked for a social services company's IT department. They are a pro-MS shop also. They are only allowing users to run IE6 because the state apps required by employees rely on IE6. Will not work in IE7.
With WGA enabled you have all your legitimate Windows users using IE7 (or at least having it installed, remember IE7's browser components are used throughout XP - help files, embedded in other apps..) but everyone pirating it still uses the previous versions with no security updates installed.
Not necessarily. My home machine is 100% legal and always has been, but I have declined to install IE7 for the simple reason that I maintain a web site and more of my visitors run IE6, so that's my default testing ground. Someone mentioned this thing about standards and problems with not following them, but I can't remember what it was...
(I use other browsers for my personal browsing, and just fire up IE for testing things. Since I haven't yet found a way to have both IE6 and IE7 installed on the same machine, and I have only one machine available, IE7 loses out for the reason above.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
That's what happened to me -- I needed to upgrade to see a page, I went to IE's upgrade site, and it asked me for stuff I hadn't seen in at least a year. So, this post isn't being typed into an IE window.
Quotes from A Man for All Seasons
I have a friend called Lloyd who has an xp box bought pre wga times with the pc.
To my knowledge he apparently has got ABSOLUTELY no updates from Microsoft since wga was turned on by them as he does not has the wga things. So what does this have to do with ie ?
Does Lloyd care about wga no, has he noticed the lack of care from Microsoft who think that he is a pirate because he has not bothered to wga his xp box ? No.
So why should he bother about ie 7. For the record i dont do wga (or use windows) and i will not install it and the machine in question has a copy of firefox on it.
Hopefully somebody will hack his unpatched before wga box and then i can lead him a cd of linux (no im not recommending vista). The Moral (from slashdot perspective) i think is that if your treat your customers as thieves then why should he bother with ie7.
You are wrong - To use something in an alternate manner is to switch between that and another "alternative". In this case the word is alternative NOT alternate.
So, does this mean it can be installed on Windows 2000?
I use Win2K in a virtual machine, and have never had the need to upgrade to XP or Vista.
One of the few issues I have run into with staying on Win2K is the inability to run IE7. Not that I want to run it.. I am quite happy with Firefox. But, some projects I am working on have www components that I would like to verify with IE7. So, this would be nice to have.
Actually, there IS a plugin that lets you host an ActiveX control inside Mozilla/Firefox/Gecko. It was written (AFAIK) specifically to host the Windows Media Player ActiveX so that Gecko browsers on windows could play Windows Media content. However, with WMP11, there is now a proper gecko-friendly plugin available I believe.
More important than the power to choose is (sadly) the power to "not change". People won't change until forced to. See the Firefox case, why it's gaining ground? Microsoft almost forced people change from IE
"Power to Choose" less important than "Power To Not Change" (in general, for most peopleo)
The products not-Microsft must be much better to "force a change" and much more vendors must sell computers with a (very working and cheaper then a Windows option) Linux distro.
Criminal prosecution and civil liability are largely orthogonal. Even if someone managed to track down and prosecute spammers and virus writers (yeah, as if), Microsoft would still be liable for writing and distributing shoddy merchandise that's trivially used as an attack vector. Their EULA won't protect them from attack victims who aren't Microsoft customers. The potential damages from a DOS attack on a major business or industry could be huge, even by Microsoft standards. With this in mind, it's in Microsoft's interest to make sure that their least shoddy products are in widespread use.
Your boss calls you an IT guy, but doesn't trust you with a computer? Does he also send you to customers? "Hey, I won't trust him with one of my PC's but you can hire this briliant IT guy for $500/h".
Microsoft offers an XP SP2 + IE7 Virtual PC image for testing. It has a date expiration, so you do need to download new ones every few months.
Google doesn't index user sigs, so stop trying to "Google Bomb" with them.
I updated IE on my wifes computer (M$ xp), as she needs it for work, before the service pack that included ie7 in it was released, wga broke and no updates could be installed till I followed this voodoo ritual of purging I found on the Microsoft support site. This removed IE7 so I could install updates and the new service pack which included IE7. I'd call it bass ackwards but that would be an insult to all bass and bass fisherman out there.
Removing wga probably improves stability overall, I just tried checking the version of IE on this machine and it crashed IE!
Phil
Laugh, it's good for you!
I don't use IE hardly at all. Only when the occasional website screws up in Opera and I for whatever crazy reason decide it's really worth whipping out IE. I know I don't have the latest version so I didn't even know it required WGA. How do they get away with that anyway? I thought part of the DoD's monopoly complaints had to do with how integrated the browser was with the OS. I suppose the WGA requirement only shrinks their install base for IE, but it also doesn't go a long way in separating IE from the OS. How can MS use WGA for anything other than core OS updates? Aren't they otherwise abusing their monopoly? Just seems strange that something like IE is supposed to be just another browser to compete against and yet it's also a tool for MS to police their Windows installations.
To be honest I got pissed off at some packages that wouldn't update (like gedit, epiphany, etc), also the wireless config changed again. I mean I like gentoo as a concept, but in practice they don't QA enough which drives me mad. It's nice that most problems can be solved via a browse of forums.gentoo.org, but frankly, I don't have time to maintain my laptop all the time.
:-)
Now my file server/workstation at home runs gentoo, but that's because I like the freshness of the tools around and it's worth solving emerge script problems
But in the case of the laptop, I "just wanted it to work."
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
With WGA enabled you have all your legitimate Windows users using IE7 (or at least having it installed, remember IE7's browser components are used throughout XP - help files, embedded in other apps..) but everyone pirating it still uses the previous versions with no security updates installed.
Not necessarily. My home machine is 100% legal and always has been, but I have declined to install IE7 for the simple reason that I maintain a web site and more of my visitors run IE6, so that's my default testing ground. Someone mentioned this thing about standards and problems with not following them, but I can't remember what it was...
(I use other browsers for my personal browsing, and just fire up IE for testing things. Since I haven't yet found a way to have both IE6 and IE7 installed on the same machine, and I have only one machine available, IE7 loses out for the reason above.)
I purchased MS VPC and XP Home edition just because I got sick of people's complaints about the sites I maintain. It was cheap here...I refused to give any (unique identifier style) data to MSFT while using paid XP Home on a complete weird setup (Quad G5 running it) so I didn't update to WGA.
I heard the news so I updated. You must be glad you (still) refuse to install IE 7 since you would have figured MS is basically lying about "better W3C compatibility" without any shame.
One site misses a huge, important announcement announcement on front page under IE 7. That site is also W3C Compliant down to "zero warning" level along with valid CSS. For all this time, that announcement was missing from site when viewed by IE and I naively thought "IE 7 is more compliant so it should render that basic standard page".
Their "phishing protection" is also a scheme to make user nervous and enable it, effectively allowing MS to watch whatever site they visit. Hope Firefox guys doesn't make same mistake with version 3.
The "tab" implementation is a complete joke, a badly coded junk. How can I figure it? Easy! Because I am emulating a X86 PC, I can see _any_ horrible programming mistake in slow motion.
The point is- IE 7 is not standards compliant and I better replace that announcement with a gif. There we go...
MSI builds of Firefox: http://www.frontmotion.com/Firefox/fmfirefox.htm
They're configurable with Group Policy, or at least that's what the website says.
Of course, you'll need to get your SMS admin to agree to this.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
If you so desired, you could install IE 7 as your primary browser and use Multiple IE to install a standalone version of IE 6 for testing your webpages out.
...and then you could be fired for cause. Brilliant.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Buying volume license copies and then having to activate each copy, or run a key management server is a pain in the ass. My company still has not upgraded to Vista and does not plan to, unless the draconian activation policies are reversed.
We are, however, buying tons of Macs and only running windows where necessary. Web-based apps and terminal server are dramatically reducing the need for a windows desktop machine in the business world.
Microsoft has everything to lose and little to gain - making products harder to buy, deploy, and use is not a wise strategy.
-ted
Yes, and that's what I was attempting to run via Firefox. However it was failing with similar errors that IE7 was having. Since IE7 wasn't working, and I couldn't get WGA to validate through Firefox, I couldn't even download IE7 from MS to repair/test the IE installation. I finally did find a copy that Yahoo was hosting, but it was branded of course with their info. In the end we told MS to piss off and never reinstalled IE7.
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
While I was not 'just a kid' in a developing country (being a white american), I grew up and worked in IT in a developing country, and here are the problems with your argument:
1. I can get a Windows XP VLK disc from a friend. I have to download Ubuntu's installer over 28.8k (on a good day)
2. Preparatory schools will require Windows and many Windows applications without exceptions
3. I can't think of any other ones, but having three bullets is the least I can have for the desired visual effect.
But really. I think Ubuntu is an excellent alternative for those who can pull it off, but you have to get a Windows computer with a CD burner, get it online, set up a download manager, download Ubuntu over the course of a few days, then install a new OS that you don't know, and access the support community from a slow-ass Internet connection. So I think 'I live in a developing country' is a quite reasonable excuse.
In Mexico, once Microsoft introduced product activation and it failed a couple times for me, causing hours and hours of extra labor, I started suggesting to people that they not pay a week's salary (these are not the super poor people, mind you) on some crappy software, and instead just pirate the crap. It's a more user-friendly experience if you pirate it. You can install MUIs if you pirate the corporate version. It's really a no-brainer. Plus, nobody's going to investigate a dry patch of dirt in Mexico for software piracy.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
If they want to force people to use their crappy software, it can at least be free.
1. It's the first OS we have had and we have since grown to be real power users; perhaps not to the levels of an 'uber-unix-sysadmin', but enough to feel like geeks.
2. It's the most widely used OS - in schools and in offices. And honestly, it's quite a hassle to make sure files (documents mostly) are interoperable; I'm sure openoffice does it pretty good, but making sure files are saved in a format thats readable in both systems takes extra effort.
3. There are lots of accessible people who are experienced/power users of windows. If an aunt needs help with her system she could call any of her children, nephew, or nieces to help her. If I have a question/problem with my kubuntu, I often need to literally scour the net and forums to find solutions.
4. Windows may not be the first thing that pops up in one's mind when talking about security but it can be easily fixed, or at least alleviated, by third-party apps (firefox, anti-virus, etc.) or if the need arises, format the drive and reinstall.
5. Applications and lots of it. I need a post-it type of app? I need an app that keeps my windows 'on-top'? I need an app that does x,y,z? I google it and download one.
6. Games.
7. Everything is available for free! Just go to your favorite torrent site, search for whatever you want, and get it. And if people stopped worshipping Redmond they'd actually realize that *they* have the power to choose, not the producers. Blame it on their monopoly and on our ignorance... but I believe that the market had chosen. Fear not though as people can still choose. Linux is starting to get noticed more and more and soon (hopefully) producers will no longer be able to ignore them. As long as anti-monopoly laws hold up against MS, I believe linux (Ubuntu, most likely) can challenge it.
They're configurable with Group Policy, or at least that's what the website says.
Of course, you'll need to get your SMS admin to agree to this. What is the point of not shipping Firefox packaged in MSI installer file? It is the native install method of Windows. Same goes for Apple OS X. They also refuse Installer.app method of installing and provide a non functional "Applications" link having drag drop file. What happens as result? OS X remote desktop having users/companies get hassle. In future, it will be a more hassle since Installer.app is evolving to become MSI like thing.
If they are boycotting (?) Windows, they should boycott alltogether. They are just harming their own programs popularity and enterprise acceptance via not using MSI or Installer.app. MSI also has some handy functions for users which may prevent certain "IE install" accidents (!!) too. E.g. one may auto-repair Firefox installation if some Microsoft tool "accidentally" deleted some parts in future.
If an OS has a native installer facility, it should be chosen. It is even funnier on OS X, I keep hearing some nightmare scenarios with Installer.app and yet Apple happily ships monster sized OS updates using that architecture.
With apologies to Bill Engvall.
How hard is it to click the Bugzilla entry?
Ah, fair enough. I must have just caught them on good days then :)
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
You can edit documents, run spreadsheets (even multiply correctly!), design software/hardware, compose music, etc, just as easily in an OSS OS as Windows. And if people stopped worshipping Redmond they'd actually realize that *they* have the power to choose, not the producers.
It's not about "editing documents and spreadsheets," it's about "editing MS Office documents and spreadsheets" because Microsoft is a monopoly. Businesses aren't willing to screw around with OpenOffice if it means they might not be able to open files from clients. Microsoft wouldn't be able to charge $329 for an upgrade if they didn't have a lock on the market.
Why isn't photoshop ported to GNU/Linux? Because customers aren't demanding it enough.
No, because serious Photoshop users couldn't care less about running it on Linux. They need it to Just Work, not waste time tinkering with it.
No, because serious Photoshop users couldn't care less about running it on Linux. They need it to Just Work, not waste time tinkering with it.
... gotcha.
Right... because absolutely no time is spent getting Windows to work. That's why people are migrating BACK TO XP from Vista in sufficient numbers as to have MSFT extend the life of XP.
Right, Windows "Just Works"
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I support some users with brain-dead web apps like that as well, and other run-on-machine apps that use mshtml.dll. I have some others whose app first required .NET 1.1 & would crash if 2.0 or 3.0 was installed, then the new version requires 2.0 and crashes if 3.0 is installed, but at least the new version also works with IE7.
.NET runtime newer than what you wrote against is even *installed*? FTM, I thought that .NET 3.0 was just 2.0 repackaged and with a few extras bolted on, but still fully compatible with 2.0 apps.
How, in the name of all that's crufty and evil, do you code an app that breaks if a
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
I think Ubuntu is an excellent alternative for those who can pull it off, but you have to get a Windows computer with a CD burner, get it online, set up a download manager, download Ubuntu over the course of a few days
Or you could request a CD be sent to you free of charge?
Shouldn't MS be the one fixing the problems in MS software? I can see why there aren't many people volunteering to solve what is not their problem in the first place.
It is their obligation. However, some people might want to solve Microsoft problems because Microsoft won't and it benefits them.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Wait, someone STEALS (and I'm deliberately using the loaded and inaccurate term here) from Microsoft, and Microsoft is liable for something that happens when they use the STOLEN product? Wow, I'm all for consumer rights, etc, etc. But you're not a consumer if you've broken the law in obtaining the product.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
i'm sure lots of people "pirate" (I put pirate in quotes because a lot of people have legit licenses but use dodgy copies of corp because they can't be assed with all the activation and bios locking bullshit) windows yet stick with IE as the familiar browser.
also there have been some scare stories about wga rejecting legit copies so some people even with legit copies may have just decided not to risk it.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Right... because absolutely no time is spent getting Windows to work. That's why people are migrating BACK TO XP from Vista in sufficient numbers as to have MSFT extend the life of XP.
... gotcha.
Right, Windows "Just Works"
You have some serious issues. Most businesses don't upgrade to Vista for the same reason they don't switch to Linux.
In your mind it's The World versus Windows + Microsoft, and Vista is still Windows.
However in people who don't have time to waste on fighting windmills, it's Solutions that Work versus Solutions that don't Work
XP works just fine with Photoshop, so does OSX. Vista and Linux, don't.
To those people Vista and Linux is the same thing: poor solution to their demands. I know, I know... the blasphemy of putting them together. You'll need to live with it.
"ShipIt is currently closed while we prepare for the Ubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy Gibbon) release. We'll be back in a few days."
but other than that afaict you can only get the latest ricer release, I don't think you can get the alternate CD (needed to do upgrades from CD afaict) and in some countries there can be issues with customs.
and if you aren't in the US it will probablly take a week or so whereas you can have the windows XP pro VLK CD and key the same day.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
With IE being part of the operating system, and commercial software companies being required by law to provide free security updates, I imagine Microsoft was opening themselves up to all sorts of legal liability.
Before locking IE7 up with WGA, they could avoid fixing huge security holes in older versions of the browser, telling everyone to upgrade to the latest version, or shut-up and live with it. With WGA routinely denying legitimate users, and apparently no method provided for users to have problems with WGA resolved, this could really have forced Microsoft to continue relasing patches for IE6 for several more years.
Micrsoft seems to be intentionally trying to avoid such legal problems for the rest of their security updates, by allowing automatic updates to be downloaded, even if WGA checks fail and you aren't even allowed to use the windowsupdate website directly.
DRM... Does using it shift legal liability onto companies that were previously able to avoid indemnity, and were previously otherwise just raking-in free money with each copy sold?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
The victims of a botnet attack would not necessarily buy, pirate or use any Microsoft product. The people who STOLE [sic] and ran Microsoft's attack vector are *not* the ones I'm talking about. It's the people who were targeted by those attacks that could sue, and they're going to sue the responsible party with the money, not 2-bit downloaders.
lets add a few more possible reasons
* you do photo editing seriously and want to use the standard proffesional photo editing tool (yes it is availible for the mac but they have their own problems like having to pay well over £1000 for a machine capable of supporting a matching pair of monitors) on an OS it is supported on.
* you program PICs and want to use microchips debugging tools
* you have internal buisness applications that require windows and don't work properly under wine.
* you have to work with people who have standardised on applications that are not availible for linux (be it office, altium designer or whatever)
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Yeah, don't ship anything important to Mexico. Customs requires them to open and examine every piece of electronics to make sure it is up to their standards. Which is laughable. And I don't mean any disrespect to Mexicans, I mean disrespect to government agencies. All the Mexicans I worked with thought it was pretty damn laughable, too.
It used to be if you shipped anything in a box, you had to wait a matter of months, and then some or all of the contents might be missing. Envelopes take a couple weeks.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Even better. With all the popups your computer seems to find porn all by itself! You should be THANKING Microsoft!
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
I've maintained THAT was true for a LONG time now. Microsoft has always "turned a blind eye" to piracy, when they thought building market-share was more important than potentially loss of revenue to copyright infringement.
... call us back and buy a legal one later on, whenever you're ready".
I've worked for companies (and known others in I.T. who had a similar experience) where the Microsoft sales rep would come in, basically hand us an illegal copy of a piece of MS software, and suggest we "install it... use it for a while, and you know
My problem is the only reason why shitty tools and OSes exist is because we're training ourselves TO EXPECT failure.
What failure? Ever bothered to claim your statements specifically? I have no failures on XP, what on Earth are you talking about.
Tell me one single serious problem, I, Windows XP and Photoshop user, suffer from the fact I use Windows to run Photoshop.
Then tell me how Linux helps this problem. Keep in mind: I'm a Photoshop user, seeing the kernel code means jack to me. You better come up with something real. And the price of XP is not much higher than the price of any other commercial grade Linux distro with corporate support.
So, I'm waiting.
If you want to get technical, no browser is truly "standards compliant" in the sense that it supports everything. I'll be the first to say that IE7 is far behind Opera, Firefox and Safari in implementation, but it's also considerably better than IE6. Not in terms of overall numbers, but there are a few critical features implemented (first among them alpha PNG), and bugs fixed.
In my experience, I can usually build a layout for Gecko/Webkit/Opera, tweak it a little bit for IE7, and tweak it a bunch for IE6.
If no one pirated Microsoft's software, Windows would be something for the history books in a few years. Mircosoft got where it is today thanks to piracy and all the free marketing they got from people copying, learning and using Windows without paying for it.
According to Microsoft (unofficially, of course) there are good people how pay for and run their software, less good people paying for they software but don't use it, even a little less good people who are running the software without paying for it and then the really really horrible people who don't use Microsoft product at all. But the legal system fails miserably to order the people in this correct order, which is a big threat to software companies.
IE7 was added to the automatic update channel about a month after the installer became available. It started automatically, then required user intervention: it brought up a dialog box asking if you wanted to install IE7. If you said yes, it would run the WGA validation, then download the rest of the files and install.
They even released a tool you could run that would tell Automatic Updates to skip IE7, if you had an environment you wanted to keep on IE6 and not have to uncheck the item every time.
The most common case for WinXP users with auto-update turned on, leaving their computers running, would be to turn on the monitor sometime last November and see "Do you want to install IE7?" on the screen.
Thanks, that looks very useful. I'll check it out.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Talk to me in 2-3 years when XP is no longer supported, you need a new computer and only Vista or whatever comes with it.
At least if I put a solid linux Distro on my box, it'll still be around 5 years from now.
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Possibly the part about, "If IE7 provides more security, then it should be available only for genuine editions. Why incentivise piracy?"
Consider that computer security flaws affect everyone, not just the vulnerable system. An owned box will pump out viruses or spam, clog traffic, can be used as a stepping-stone to launch attacks, etc. The suggestion that pirated systems shouldn't get security fixes has proved...controversial here in the past.
As I commented on http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=794
---
Gates explained it in 1998
I voted for "To try to grow IE 7's marketshare by adding software pirates to the count"; to partially quote what Bill Gates said in 1998:
"we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect"
http://www.news.com/2100-1023-212942.html
The 'addiction' can only happen if IE7 gets a vast-majority market share like IE6 had.
Now look at http://members.shaw.ca/Limulus/files/w3sbw2-0706.png
The numbers from w3schools.com aren't necessarily indicative of the overall web, but I've found the trends they show are.
Compared to the IE5 -> IE6 transition which was rapid and fairly X shaped on the graph, the IE6 -> IE7 tansition has stalled, with IE7 having plateaued at a level *less* than IE6.
This is very bad for Microsoft, as it represents a prolonged vulnerable state. Since IE6 and 7 are different enough that they need to be treated separately by developers, the difference in market share between IE7 and Firefox is small enough that website developers must take the latter into account too and thus support it (even if you take the Net Applications numbers http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=6 to be fully accurate, and I don't, you'll note that the ratio of FF:IE7:IE6 is about 2:5:6. If it was all IE6, that would be 2:11) And if Firefox is supported, there will be less sites that are IE-specific, meaning less 'addiction' to IE.
---
Don't blame me ... I use Opera.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
1) I have seen as many issues with IE7 migrations as issues solved by migrations to IE7.
2) IE7, however, does correct a number of insane deviations from standards that IE6 and earlier made. One notable example is the fact that IE7 submits the button value attribute back to the server instead of the innerHTML (as IE6 and earlier do). Furthermore, before you pull MSDN documnetation to prove me wrong, I will note that MSDN was not updated for some of these changes.
So IE7 breaks backwards compatibility with IE6 in a few areas (and about time...) but Microsoft isn't documenting the browser properly and so I can imagine that web devs are confused.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
You should start using it to download Wubi. ^_^
Menus: Linux=function, Windows=vendor, OS X=as little as possible. Makes a statement, don't you think?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Well I rebuilt a laptop with XP (SP3 Beta actually) and messed up some registry permissions, so IE7 would never install. Followed ALL the remedies to no avail (well, I prefer Firefox, but I do need IE7 too - and validation was never a problem here). So today I tried again with the identically-named download. It spent 5+ minutes thrashing on the hard drive (repairing things?), then went straight through sweetly. So a few extra issues have been fixed under the covers. Grudging credit where credit is (eventually) due.
At the end of the day, why would I switch to Linux? So I have the source? No thanks. For the free software? Windows has all the free software I need. For the interface? The Windows interface is way more polished. Because it's free? So was Windows. Came with my computer. I have legal copies of XP Pro, XP Home, Media Center and Vista, and I've never paid for any of them.
I think it's great that you guys love Linux, but I'm perfectly happy, thanks.
All right, I'll talk to you in 2-3 years.
Next time if you sense you need 2-3 years to come up with something sensible to support your rants, just keep quiet until the 2-3 years pass and only then post.
I use IE at most once a month, usually to fill out some form on some backwards government website or something similar, that for some stupid reason has to have IE. Other than that, I haven't bothered in years. However, FF is starting to turn into a bloated pig, and is now being targeted by attackers too, so who knows maybe I'll check out IE again one of these days.
2 words - Visual Studio
how about putting the GODDAMNED RELOAD BUTTON back where it's supposed to be?!?
assholes.
As for the issue of IE7, to be honest I'd rather run IE4 than either IE6 or IE7. Loads a hell of a lot quicker, and the interface is a bit more sane. Even without tabbed browsing it's still better than 7.
Are you sure you're not letting the fanboyism get the best of you? While IE6/7 aren't exactly impressive, they have fixed a lot of the most horrible rendering bugs which means any modern site will render like crap in IE4. The strict mode in IE6 was at the time, one of the best things to happen to web standards ever. Of course we're talking 2001 here and not much has happened since then...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
There is a good reason I uninstalled IE7: it just doesn't work very well. In attempting to make it follow standards more closely, not only did they dump some of the famous IE "quirks" that people accounted for when designing their websites, they did not replace that with adequate "standard" behavior. As a result, a lot of fancy page layouts simply do not display correctly: their engine does not display it according to the standard, nor according to the old "quirk" that people knew. Which is really bad news.
When I could not get some simple <div> and <table> layouts to be the right size or place in IE7, I just tossed it and went back to 6. And I am talking pretty basic HTML4.
I think Microsoft still needs to get it through their heads that in order for something to be an "improvement", it has to be an improvement from the user point of view, not just their own.
I don't disagree. I was refuting the statement that there's "no excuse" for running pirated Windows. Personally, when I tried to start using Linux and understanding it, I was on a fast dial-up connection in the US, and it was pretty goddamn excruciating.
The point about the Windows CDs is that they are floating around. People have them already. And though most systems have CD burners, I wouldn't place any big bets that they all do in a 3rd-world country. Obviously, the kid posting saying he's in a developing country has access to a computer and the Internet.
I still recommend Ubuntu. Especially if the $40 yearly you pay for a decent antivirus sounds like a lot. And especially if paying someone to fix your computer is not feasible. Broken Windows with no drivers and a 28.8k connection is far, far worse than broken Ubuntu, because of the LiveCD. However, the person has to get there first.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
known domicile
village of La Playa
San Jose del Cabo, BCS 23400
So if someone sent me a letter, a mailman would show up and ask the guy at the store at the mouth of the village, and ask if he knew me. Generally, the mailman would leave letters (rare though they were) going to my house AT THE STORE. And international shipping is not necessarily very good between developing nations to begin with.
I use Ubuntu, my mom uses Ubuntu, I have 1 friend and 1 client who uses Ubuntu, and my brother uses Ubuntu. I'm aware of how things compare, and I am a big proponent of Linux, especially in remote areas where systems are harder to get serviced once they get the random porn banner spyware in them. However, GGP was stating that there was no argument for using pirated Windows when Linux existed, so I demonstrated a solid counterexample.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
That's why people are migrating BACK TO XP from Vista in sufficient numbers as to have MSFT extend the life of XP.
And where did I say anything about Vista? (sound of crickets chirping around a straw man).
Photoshop should work on any decently modern OS, especially something like a *NIX where X11 is the norm and ported everywhere. It doesn't however, because nobody demands it. And they don't demand it because customers accept that "this is the way things are.
No, they don't demand it because time is money and they see no reason to waste a great deal of money screwing around with Linux.
Next time if you sense you need 2-3 years to come up with something sensible to support your rants, just keep quiet until the 2-3 years pass and only then post.
What he said.
IE7 is now flagged as a Critical update, whereas the "Update Rollup 2 for Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005" (KB900325) is an Optional update. And guess what? If you install IE7 first - for example, if it is done for you automatically courtesy of Automatic Updates - the KB900325 update fails to install!
Only the manual, go-to-the-website-and-patch WindowsUpdate/MicrosoftUpdate is blocked without WGA.