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New England Patriots Obtain Online Ticket Reseller Names

Posted by Zonk on from the nice-way-to-treat-your-fans dept.

Billosaur writes "The New England Patriots sued on-line ticket re-seller StubHub (a subsidiary of eBay) to obtain the list of names of people who tried to buy or sell Patriots tickets using the service. StubHub lost an appeal in Massachusetts state court last week, and was compelled to hand over the list of 13,000 names. It is currently not clear what the Patriots organization intends to do with the names, but they have intimated that they may revoke the privileges of any season ticket holders on the list. The Center for Democracy and Technology, a Washington D.C.-based advocacy group, said the court order to turn over the names infringes on the privacy rights of Patriots fans. At issue is whether using the on-line service allows an end-run around team rules and Massachusetts state law, by allowing ticket holders to charge extreme mark-ups on their tickets." How does this ruling apply to other pieces of transient property?

40 of 233 comments (clear)

  1. To be fair... by SRA8 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    in a fair society, venues would be able to set prices at market prices, thus eliminating the need for entities such as stub-hub. However, setting prices at market would likely cause an uproar, so why should anyone have sympathy for organizations/individuals trying to profit from charity to society?

    1. Re:To be fair... by wizbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bingo. I'm an occasional user of StubHub when I need to grab a few extra tickets last-minute, but the gouging that goes on (think Hanna Montana) for highly desirable and rare events just turns the whole model on its head. This kind of exclusivity in the NFL is generally limited to the playoffs, but if you have a perennial champion like the Pats, or just a huge market like NYC, "average" fans get the shaft during the regular season as well.

    2. Re:To be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is there a system where you need to provide ID that you bought the tickets?

      Something like;
      Paul Johnsmith buys 5 tickets, states he's the leader so all 5 of the tickets have "Johnsmith group".
      At entry presenting "Johnsmith Group" tickets, the father, Paul Johnsmith proves he's the group leader and they let him in.

      Paul buys 5 tickets, states he's the only person so the ticket has "Paul".
      At entry presenting "Paul" ticket, the father, Paul proves he's the owner.

      Then the ticket sellers could introduce a new service to charge a fee to change the details of the ticket to something else if the ticket details wasn't a fault of the company.

      The only problem I see is under 18s not being able to get in, this could be solved if they were accompanied by an adult friend who bought the tickets.

    3. Re:To be fair... by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      so why should anyone have sympathy for organizations/individuals trying to profit from charity to society?

      Charity? I don't think sports teams are being "charitable" per-se for selling tickets at under market rate.. they do it to enforce their brand and keep up the excitement in customers who can't get tickets due to overdemand and who will then try to fight for them next time.

      They should just sell the damn things for market rate. I don't see beachside condos or Mercedes Benz cars being sold at under market simply to keep the proles happy.

    4. Re:To be fair... by wizbit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And I don't see any car dealerships selling Maybach jerseys. There's a bigger market than just tickets, and it's overwhelmingly driven by the middle class. Make it impossible for blue collar fans to attend a game and you drive down merchandising opportunities elsewhere. The NFL already has what's mostly become an exclusively white collar event - it's called the Super Bowl.

    5. Re:To be fair... by oldelpaso · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bingo. Steep price rises might sound like a good way to make money when every game is a sellout, but sports fans have long memories, and should the team's on-field performance fall on hard times those alienated would not return. Plus, ticket sales are only one part of revenue, merchandising and things like refreshments account for a significant proportion. I don't know if its the same in the US, but for the largest European football (soccer) clubs, gate money is a distant third behind TV and commercial revenue.

      In common with your "clubs need to protect their real supporters" theme, it is important to distinguish between the regular fan who bought tickets but for one reason or another cannot go to the game, and the organised rackets and ripoff merchants. If the Pats go after regular fans they will certainly experience a backlash, but if they focus on racketeers their fanbase will most likely give their full backing.

    6. Re:To be fair... by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's against the law in Mass. to resell a ticket for more than face value plus a small fee (which is like $2 or something...) That's why they were able to go after stubhub.

    7. Re:To be fair... by J-1000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The price set by the venues IS the fair market price. They are the ones who do the market research, they are the ones with the customer relationship to maintain, and thus they set their ticket prices accordingly. When outside middlemen force their way into the equation it undermines not only the customer's best interests, but also the venues' as well.

    8. Re:To be fair... by kiatoa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What baffles me is the same people who are so religious about the magic of the free market get so indignant when tickets get marked up 1000% by a scalper. Either embrace the free market and accept the associated consequences or accept the fact that the free market doesn't always yield the most optimal solution to all social and economic problems. Tickets (to sporting events) and oil need the same treatment in my opinion. Tax away the *unearned* profits. I.e. pay the bills, give the investors a reasonable chunk of change and then give the rest to the government. The hope is that the government can then tax incomes a little less. In the case of the tickets the creative solution would be for the government to give out "sporting event stamps" to the less fortunate (about 90% of the population :-) ).

      --
      90% of the wealth is in 2% of the pockets. Bummer to be in the majority.
    9. Re:To be fair... by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With out the gouging the tickets would be unavailable for purchase. Thus you would have NO TICKETS. Fans don't "get the shaft" they get tickets at a price they are willing to pay.

    10. Re:To be fair... by toriver · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the gougers did not hoard tickets for resale, those tickets WOULD be available for purchase. It's precisely because non-fans bought them that they are unavailable to fans.

    11. Re:To be fair... by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're trying to tell me that of the tens of millions of football fans in America, and of the millions of football fans in the New England area, the best team in the NFL wouldn't sell out their entire stadium at $50 per ticket making it impossible for anyone other than camp-out-overnight and compulsive-webpage-reloading fans to get tickets?

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  2. I would only want to hide my name if by andy314159pi · · Score: 5, Funny

    I would really only want to hide my name if I'd bought season tickets for the Dolphins.

    1. Re:I would only want to hide my name if by LaskoVortex · · Score: 3, Funny

      I couldn't help reply to someone who stands up for their team so adamantly yet so ANONYMOUSLY.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
  3. It's all about the markup... by Cryophallion · · Score: 3, Informative

    The issue is the fact that they are selling the tickets above the face value.

    If I remember correctly, here in MA is is completely legal to resell tickets - just not for profit.

    Our local sports teams have more than just a few insanely loyal fans who will do just about anything to see a game. People try to take advantage of this, which results in prices nearing mortage levels (and at 300k for a 2 bed home in the suburbs here, that it quite a bit of money).

    I'm all for people being enterprising and making a little money - say 10% or at most 20% above face value. But anything over that is taking advantage of the fans, and preying on their obsessive love of the sports they love.

    1. Re:It's all about the markup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Law says you can sell at face value + 10% max (not sure if your trading expences like postage are included)

    2. Re:It's all about the markup... by SnowZero · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I remember correctly, here in MA is is completely legal to resell tickets - just not for profit. If that's true, then law enforcement should be getting the list of names, not an NFL team. Are the Patriots now a law enforcement agency? Also, why do they need the list of people buying tickets?

      I think scalping sucks too, but you really can't fight the market and pretend there isn't scarcity.
    3. Re:It's all about the markup... by Lord+Kano · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The issue is the fact that they are selling the tickets above the face value.

      Why in the fuck else would people create a marketplace for the buying and selling of tickets if not to make profit on it?

      I'm all for people being enterprising and making a little money - say 10% or at most 20% above face value. But anything over that is taking advantage of the fans, and preying on their obsessive love of the sports they love.

      The same can be said for coin or comic book dealers. Does it matter that Action Comics #1 originally cost $0.10? If some dork is willing to pay $250,000 for it now, there's nothing wrong with selling it at that price.

      What teams make in endorsements, broadcast rights and merchandising is so substantial that they're already taking advantage of the fans by charging $50.00 or whatever per ticket.

      It's pure economics, when there is great demand for a product that is in limited supply, prices will rise. There were jackasses who paid $2,500 for Playstation 3 consoles because that was the only way they could get them. Should Sony have been able to sue to prevent people from reselling things that they legitimately bought? Why is that any worse than selling tickets at higher prices? What would be wrong with having an auction? If two people want the same ticket and are willing to bid against each other to buy them, why should the owner of the ticket be kept from allowing them to do so?

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    4. Re:It's all about the markup... by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm all for people being enterprising and making a little money - say 10% or at most 20% above face value. But anything over that is taking advantage of the fans, and preying on their obsessive love of the sports they love.

      That's right. But why stop there? Why shouldn't the government force, say, Apple to sell their products for no more than 10-20% markup - after all, anything more than that is taking advantage of Apple fanboys, and trendies who just have to have the latest chic tech. And excessive markup is a problem throughout the whole tech sector - in fact, why don't we just make the government responsible for setting the prices throughout the whole economy? Then, because human controls are so much better at maintaining a stable system than an open market, all the prices will be fair, for both the vendor and the consumer.

      Wait, is this sounding familiar to anybody?

      The problem in this case is the "insanely loyal fans who will do just about anything to see a game". If some people are stupid enough to sell their house to see a game, then society and the government is not responsible for stopping them. That's the whole concept of freedom - you can do what you want, but when you do, you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    5. Re:It's all about the markup... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm all for people being enterprising and making a little money - say 10% or at most 20% above face value. But anything over that is taking advantage of the fans, and preying on their obsessive love of the sports they love.

      Sorry about the rant, but comments like this (and people who mod them up) drive me up the wall! Its amazing how many people simply don't this whole liberty business. Who exactly are you to decide how much profit someone else should make or not make? Should every business be restricted to making 10-20% profit or only the particular ones that you don't like? You know how much profit Starbucks makes on a cup of latte, or a perfume company on a tiny bottle of scented water that they sell for $75? What on earth is wrong with a person buying a ticket for $100 and then selling it for a $1,000, or a $1,000,000 if there is a buyer who wants the ticket and is willing to spend that much.

      If you have a house, and the property prices happen to go through the roof, would you sell it at below market value because you'd feel bad about making a profit on it? If you are selling your 1984 Corolla and some billionaire, for whatever reason, decides to offer you $100,000 for it would you refuse because thats too much profit for you? Well maybe you would, but that doesn't make it any less wrong to force other people to do it.

      If a team wants to attach whatever conditions they want to the sale of the ticket (such as resale not allowed) that is their business, but the state making the resale for profit illegal is simply ridiculous. Have they ever heard of retail in MA?

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    6. Re:It's all about the markup... by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's just the same as any other limited resource - it's just that that particular resource is limited enough that people can get a near-monopoly without significant investment. But in the end, its just the same as anything else - in fact, its the same thing we saw with the Playstation 3 earlier - limited supply, people grab up plenty, then flog em on eBay.

      I don't really have any problem with pre-order limits, or conditions on tickets that invalidate them if they're not held by the purchaser, or any other sort of controls imposed by the retailer, within their authority. It's additional government controls that I don't particularly like.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  4. Ironic? by dotslashdot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Isn't it ironic that the team allegedly invading privacy is called the Patriots?

    1. Re:Ironic? by shoemilk · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not after the PARTIOT Act...

    2. Re:Ironic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nope, not at all. Then again, I remember that they are, after all, the team that was caught spying on other teams. (Apparently the penalty for cheating in major league sports is to pay a fine and nothing else. You'd think they'd get kicked out of the league, but apparently not.)

      I guess they thought the warrantless wiretapping privileges granted via the USA PATRIOT Act applied to them as the Patriots...

  5. Read it and weep by davmoo · · Score: 3, Informative

    the court order to turn over the names infringes on the privacy rights of Patriots fans

    Too effing bad. Every sports related season ticket by any team in any sport always has rules attached. And if one of those rules is season ticket holders can't resell their tickets, then the franchise has every right to find out who is reselling and cut them off. If you don't like their rules, then don't buy their tickets. That's your only option.

    --
    I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
    1. Re:Read it and weep by _xeno_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not even slightly like pirating music or movies.

      Tickets are by definition a scarce resource. There are a finite number of tickets for a finite number of seats, and once the tickets are all sold, that's it: there are no more tickets. Contrast that with pirating music which does not remove a copy of music from distribution.

      I'm going to skip any moral argument, but suffice it to say that it's not a "victimless crime" as it really does remove items that would otherwise be available to "legitimate" purchasers.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
  6. tickets sold for up to 10x what they are worth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    FTFA

    Team rules bar reselling game tickets for a profit. State law, though rarely enforced, restricts ticket markups to $2 above face value plus some service charges. Patriots tickets have been offered on StubHub at prices many times higher, including two 50-yard-line seats for New England's Dec. 16 game against the AFC rival New York Jets listed Thursday for $1,300.05 each. Their face value is $125.

    StubHub, one of the largest online ticket sellers, argued that the Patriots' request violated its confidentiality agreement with its customers and said the team wants to create a monopoly on the resale market for its own tickets.
    under state law tickets can be resold just at a very low profit though "the team rules" forbid any resale. that is anti-competitive though hording tickets and selling them at 10x what they are worth isn't any better. don't feel sorry for either side, neither is correct- both are screwing people over.
  7. We need to do like we did for the airlines by iminplaya · · Score: 5, Funny

    We need the Department of Gameland Security. If you want a ticket, you must ask permission 72 hours in advance. Upon entering the stadium, you must show your passport or a government approved ID. Under the state's secrets act, you are prohibited from discussing the events. Woe to you who cheers for the wrong team. You will be placed on the "no seat list". See, this is why the airlines really want ID...to prevent you from selling your ticket. Don't be surprised to see it here also "for your protection".

    --
    What?
  8. Interesting counterpoint by eln · · Score: 2, Informative

    This story is an interesting counterpoint to the news that Major League Baseball has agreed to endorse StubHub as their official ticket reseller.

    Personally, I'm torn on this issue. Basically, as a person on a fairly standard middle class income, it sucks that I'll likely never be able to attend major sporting events because scalpers quickly scoop up all of the tickets and price them out of range of the normal fan. On the other hand, if teams insist on building stadiums that don't hold the number of fans that would actually be willing to go to the games (for example, Invesco Field in Denver was built to almost exactly the same capacity as the old Mile High Stadium, even though waiting lists for season tickets there are decades long), it might make sense to let the free market determine the price of seats.

    Personally, I think that scalping should be illegal, as scalpers essentially make their money by employing dirty tricks to corner the market on tickets, thereby possibly artificially inflating the cost of tickets. I understand the free market argument, but I think measures should be taken so we can be sure that fans at a game represent a true cross section of the fan base for the team, not just the ones that can afford $500 or more for tickets.

    1. Re:Interesting counterpoint by Lord+Kano · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll likely never be able to attend major sporting events because scalpers quickly scoop up all of the tickets and price them out of range of the normal fan.

      What's stopping you from going to the place that the scalpers go and getting a ticket for yourself?

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  9. GO CHARGERS! by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Funny

    GO CHARGERS!

    *ducks*

  10. Re:It's not quite that simple by tm2b · · Score: 2, Informative

    Uh, no. You're subject to the laws of a state if you do business in it - it should take little thought to see why this is necessary.

    The question isn't whether they're based in Massachusetts, it's whether they're doing business in Massachusetts. And they are.

    --
    "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
  11. Mixed Feelings by DavidD_CA · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not 100% sure where I stand on issues like this.

    A part of me gets sick when I go on eBay and find tickets for a concert or sporting event that is up for sale by a "professional" scalper. Especially annoying are when these tickets were obtained from a fan club membership, or sold out within minutes only to appear right on eBay. It makes it more expensive for a real fan to get decent seats.

    Then the other part of me is a capitalist pig and says there's nothing wrong with that.

    As for selling these season tickets... I don't see what the big deal is. People have done that for years, only now it's easier. They've also bought season tickets for the purpose of giving to clients (or prospects).

    --
    -David
  12. No First Sale doctrine? by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The fact is that the scalpers legally bought the tickets, so why may they not resell them? The only issue should be if they don't declare the income for tax purposes.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  13. How so? by Rix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are their offices in Massachusetts? Do they have any presence in Massachusetts?

    If China bans baseball, should patriots.com be required to hand over a list of Chinese IPs which visited the site?

  14. $300K?! You should be so lucky!! by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 4, Funny

    $300,000 for a 2-bedroom home, you should be so lucky...

    When I was young we had to pay $650,000 for 3 walls and a tarp for a roof, and we didn't even have a pro football team...

    Oh wait...that's not when I was young. That's right now. Fucking Orange County.

    --
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    1. Re:$300K?! You should be so lucky!! by Chapter80 · · Score: 5, Funny

      we had to pay $650,000 for 3 walls and a tarp for a roof, and we didn't even have a pro football team...

      Oh wait...that's not when I was young. That's right now. Fucking Orange County.

      Perhaps you should chose a different colour county.

      Or is the county named after a copulating fruit?

  15. per by kurtis25 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm sure like all tickets this come with strings attached. But this issue is about two questions, can the Patriots force a company to turn over lists of sellers, what privacy issue does this have, what is included in the list, do they know how much I sold my ticket for? Is this concept of restrictions on sales fair? Can I buy a ticket and be told what to do with it (can MSFT sell me an XBox then prevent me from modding it?) In Ohio folks sell pencils with free tickets to the Michigan Ohio State game. Since your not selling the tickets this is legal. What if StubHub allowed a purchase and processing fee set by the seller I could sell the ticket at face value then pump up the purchase and processing fees I will charge to get you the ticket (like shipping on ebay)? In a broad sense issue has implications elsewhere, at what point do I own the item and have the freedom of control over it? When is it truly my XBox and when is it enough my house that the HOA can't tell me what to do? p.s. Combine this with a video tape scandal and it seems like the Patriots are trying to loose fans.

  16. ...what they are worth by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    by definition tickets are worth what willing buyers will pay.

    Seems to me the tickets are under-priced from the get-go.

    There wouldn't be a problem if sports teams, concert venues, etc. just charged scalper like fees to begin with, then discounted the unsold tickets closer to the event time, if needed.

    That gives all the profit to the right people, not artificial middle-men (scalpers).

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  17. Re:Spelling Nazi by edeloso · · Score: 2, Informative
    From dictionary.com. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intimated

    intimate2 [in-tuh-meyt] -verb (used with object), -mated, -mating. 1. to indicate or make known indirectly; hint; imply; suggest. 2. Archaic. to make known; announce. It's used appropriately in the article.