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Apple's Missed Opportunity With Leopard Delay

An anonymous reader writes "According to an article on OSWeekly.com, Apple missed a big opportunity by not releasing Leopard soon. They could've taken advantage of Vista's losing streak and one upped Microsoft, the author suggests. 'It's not uncommon for Windows users and technology consumers in general to say that Microsoft missed out on making the most of Vista both before and after its launch. Longtime fans of Windows have changed their tone due to Vista's inadequacies, and regular users are in many cases stuck with trying to figure out why they still can't get certain things to work within the operating system. Granted, it's not a completely horrific OS, but is that even a compliment worth accepting?'"

57 of 641 comments (clear)

  1. Hardly... by gilesjuk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Windows users will stick with XP, there's no evidence to say that they would give up on Windows and get a Mac. Firstly they would need to buy new hardware, the obvious choice is to go to Linux since you can keep your hardware.

    1. Re:Hardly... by electroniceric · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If people other than tinkerers and enthusiasts are going to change OS, they're going to do so either because they bought a new computer, or because there's something they want to do that they can't now or something that really made them unhappy. That process takes longer than a couple months.

      What's really changed with Vista is that people are not willing to be shepherded along from release to release by Microsoft. This is partly due to the Mac's resurgence and more due to a much broader understanding that there are choices. I'd love to attribute that understanding of choices to Linux and open source, but I think that's only had an much of an effect within the developer community. But users more broadly no longer see Microsoft as a miracle-worker for producing these computers that do all sorts of things, because they just expect computers to do the things they do. And many more of them have seen the forced upgrade phenomenon firsthand, and are waiting for a little more bang for their $400. That's reflected in the press with far more writers adopting critical tone towards Microsoft than ever before.

      All of the articles we've seen about Apple and missed opportunities (after all this TFA is just some dude at a small website pontificating for an evenings' entertainment) are generally people expressing their desire for David to knock off Goliath and have very little to do with any insights about the market or business opportunities for Apple or Microsoft. To the extent that Apple keeps producing computers that people like and are relevant to what people want to do with them, on terms that are favorable to Apple, their market opportunities are still enormous. And that's almost totally independent of market share - the desktop OS market is simply not an unexploited area in the way it was 15 years ago.

    2. Re:Hardly... by sarathmenon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It used to be 6%. Not that the increase isn't insignificant, but all those vista haters aren't moving there. I got a mac recently, but it was more to do with the fact that I've been trying to build something like the macmini for 2 years but haven't come close to getting a cabinet and motherboard of the form factor.

      I am guessing that most of the switchers are from the ipod/iphone users, who are curious about apple. Its a shame that their advertisement campaigns do not target this audience - I thought that someone smart would be working in that department.

      --
      Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."
    3. Re:Hardly... by sarathmenon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And that's more to do with human nature. People will rather live with a familiar piece of crap, rather than switch to something totally new that may (not) be better. I don't see any sudden shifts in computing, windows is going to be at the helm for a long time, atleast a decade or two more. No, there will not be a year of the linux desktop, there may be a year of the mac desktop.

      That said, awareness of apple as a good hardware vendor is increasing. In the end, a very less part of apple's bottom line will be affected by vista. Leopard's timing will not affect this much, in fact I think they made the wise move by releasing it near the holiday season.

      --
      Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."
    4. Re:Hardly... by thsths · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > What's really changed with Vista is that people are not willing to be shepherded along from release to release by Microsoft.

      I also has to do with the fact that Windows users usually settle for "good enough". And XP is good enough, certainly with SP2, so there is no reason to jump through hoops just to get shiny Vista. At the release of XP, the situation was completely different: the current consumer Windows was ME (pile of crap), and the professional release was 2000, which was very compatible to XP in many ways. And BTW, remember how long NT4 was still around, even after 2000 and XP were released?

      So the problem is that Vista is (in many ways) incompatible to XP, but XP is good enough. Exactly the same trap that Linux was in for so long...

    5. Re:Hardly... by kestasjk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      With Parallels you can run Linux on the Mac, and if you don't want to do that but still want Nix software, you can do it. I'm using GIMP, Scribus, Inkscape, Xephem, and other titles I was used to in the Nix world. I've even ran Gnome on top of OSX. What? What does that have to do with anything? Are you from Apple marketing or something? You think we don't know you can run any GTK app on Windows too?

      Getting back on topic: "Why didn't Apple release Leopard earlier to capitalize on Vista's poor reception? Apple should hire me so I can decide these things for them. Yes, they really missed an opportunity there, those silly managers at Apple.."

      Hmmm, I'm guessing the release coming now, and not months ago, had something to do with Leopard not being ready.
      You can say "If HURD 1.0 had been released right after Vista it might have got some extra users", but that doesn't mean the developers can just decide to finish and release HURD 1.0 whenever it plays well against another company's release date.
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    6. Re:Hardly... by laffer1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Consider that Microsoft had to convince people over several versions of windows to use it over DOS applications. At the same time, Apple and many other vendors lost ground. It is possible to have an OS switch, but it has to be fueled by cost and features.

      Apple's have features, but also cost more. I've argued they don't in the past, but with the intel hardware it's getting harder to make that claim. I do think apple makes good hardware, but comparing what I can build versus a mini or even looking at macbooks... it's harder to say apple is that much more. Even if you make a case for better hardware, most PC users don't know it's good. They don't even know the difference between a lowend e-machine and a highend dell.

      In order for linux or any other os to take share from windows, it has to overcome the hassle of learning a new system and losing all the software you've used for years. When me and the redhat ceo can't get windows out of our lives, it's hard to tell others to do so. Gaming is the problem with linux conversion.

    7. Re:Hardly... by penix1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In order for linux or any other os to take share from windows, it has to overcome the hassle of learning a new system and losing all the software you've used for years. When me and the redhat ceo can't get windows out of our lives, it's hard to tell others to do so.


      Familiarity plays a large part but by far the OEM lock-in plays a bigger part especially with new users. People are lazy plain and simple. They aren't going to go through the headache of installing an OS when one comes with the new machine. Microsoft has made it that way and OEMs aren't really pushing for anything different since each new iteration of Windows usually requires new hardware. It's an incestuous relationship. Apple also plays this game with their OS. It is nothing new. Breaking this alliance between the OEM and Microsoft should be a priority for the antitrust oversight board but it simply isn't as evidenced by the extension to the settlement by some State DAs.
      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    8. Re:Hardly... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think the number of "Vista haters" is even a small fraction of what Slashdot thinks it is. Companies aren't movin to Vista because they're conservative, not because they hate it. Consumers generally don't give half a whit, but where they have an opinion at all I wager they'd prefer Vista over XP.

    9. Re:Hardly... by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is no way anyone can build a home brew computer on par with the top tier OEMs anymore. That wasn't the case 10 years ago but you can't put together a system that compares with the Mac Mini or iMac for that matter.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
  2. A Little Early ... by thornomad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not sure how you can say they missed an opportunity until after some initial sales figures and responses come out. It took a while before the non-desire for Vista became apparent. It will take some time before people have a chance to respond (with their wallets) to Leopard.

  3. Right, they should have followed Microsoft's lead. by rthille · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The should have released it 'on time' regardless if that made it feature-poor and buggy.
    These comentators don't understand Apple customers. Apple customers value quality. You try to sell them crap and they will eat you alive.

    Apple's prime value is in the intangible goodwill of it's customers. Destroying that by releasing buggy crap wouldn't be a good idea.

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  4. Missed Opportunity? by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple had a choice, release the new OS X later, and the iPhone when they did, or, delay the iPhone.

    I think it should be obvious with the hype that still surrounds that device that Apple made the right choice. Yes, they could have gained some more marketshare, but probably not by much. After all, OS X is already here, just not the latest version.

    Apple is entering a market (handhelds) that is likely to be a much larger market than laptops/desktops over the next few years. The iPhone stands a good chance of becoming the market leader in a particular segment. OS X will still be (mostly) a niche player. I hope to see adoption of mac's increase - after all, I own one.

    But given the choice, I would opt for the iPhone over OS X just like they did.

    --
    Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
    1. Re:Missed Opportunity? by macurmudgeon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not like the current version of OS X, Tiger isn't already winning converts. After the pain of buying a new PC with Vista then going through the hassle of getting the reseller to supply a copy of XP and all the time spent installing the older OS, I'd honestly be a bit leery of a following that experience up by buying a Mac with a brand new version of OS X. If people are going to like the Mac experience they will like the current version just fine, if not they'll go back to XP. A new OS isn't going the change the differences in design philosophy between Apple and Microsoft.

      In Apple's place I would have delayed a new OS and concentrated on the iPhone too.

    2. Re:Missed Opportunity? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Did it ever occur to you that iPhone runs a customized copy of Leopard? (It does.) Clearly they had the Leopard team finish the iPhone-specific features before they got it ready for Macs.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  5. Soon? by Ophion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    According to an article on OSWeekly.com, Apple missed a big opportunity by not releasing Leopard soon.

    Apple is releasing Leopard soon, unless six days now qualifies as a long wait. Perhaps the author of the summary meant "earlier."

  6. I sort of agree by InlawBiker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But it wasn't Vista who won, it was Ubuntu. While I was waiting for Leopard to come out to make my first Mac purchase in 10 years, I tried Ubuntu and stuck with it. Ubuntu somehow became a buzzword at exactly the right time.

    However, I did get my wife a Macbook this summer and honestly Tiger is still a big upgrade from XP. It works great! I'm going to upgrade to Leopard just to see the new goodies, even though she might not even notice I did it.

  7. OSWeekly is wrong by brass1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The lesson from Vista is that releasing a broken and incomplete OS so you can fix it in the field is no longer acceptable. Ignoring your testers complaints on usability and performance issues will no longer get it done. I suspect that the disaster that was Vista's release is one of the things that caused Apple to reassess their Leopard release date.

    With that said, it's obvious that the Vista release cycle was a death march from the get go. There's little chance you can jettison that many major features during the development cycle and still end up with a quality release in the end. Killing cool features also kills developer morale and poor morale causes poor quality.

    1. Re:OSWeekly is wrong by HopeOS · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm a professional Windows software developer who has been there since Windows 3.0. Windows and Windows APIs are my bread and butter. And you sir, are living in a complete fantasy land.

      ...the people that 'actually' used Vista for a significant amount of time (i.e. the testers) don't see Vista as the horrible OS that others looking in that haven't used it extensively do.

      We beta tested this from alpha to release. It was clunky and busted all along, and it didn't even firm up until the end. Our company still, after dedicating all that effort, will not support running our product on Vista. Which is just as well, since none of our customers, all major financial institutions, are asking for it.

      Vista added a lot of architectural changes...

      The fact that Vista has revised how its internal subsystems interconnect has had zero impact on the user experience, and your assertation that Vista is faster than XP flies in the face of reality. It is so much slower that we have to reimage all our new computer purchases back to XP because none of our developers will stand to have one on their desk. It literally takes 50% longer to build our entire product tree on Vista than XP. It boggles the mind.

      The other big shove Vista has going for it is the migration for development to not only a new set of APIs, but a new concept of development that is as revolutionary as Drag and Drop event based programming made popular with Visual Basic back in 1993.

      I'll tell you straight out, no one's going to touch it. No developer in their right mind is going to code to an API that is not backwards compatible to XP. Not going to happen. And in our field of software, financial services, if it doesn't run on W2K, it doesn't ship. Forget shiny, we do not care about shiny. Amateur programmers play with that stuff. Professional programmers code with event horizons of five to ten years. We will not be beta-testing yet another crazy development model from Microsoft. Ask VB6 programmers how well their legacy code bases are doing today. Our company still has mission-critical code written to MFC for God's sake. Do you honestly expect that successful businesses are going to recode their entire product line every time the wind changes in Redmond? We're tired of this crap.

      Vista also added enough new features ... more than XP ...more than Leopard, which makes Leopard look like a catch up OS...

      Now here, you're just deluding yourself. Vista announced plenty of features and FAILED to deliver on damn near every single one. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one single feature Vista introduced that was not already available in OSX by the time Vista shipped. WinFS? Didn't happen. Aero? Meet OSX Quartz. Successfully implemented and delivered on time. Full system indexing and searching on Vista is a dog. Ever tried Spotlight on OSX? You don't even it notice it's there. Look at the underlying designs for both and you can see why.

      Pick almost any Leopard feature and Vista has the feature, and architecturally there is no 'killer' feature of OS X that Vista cannot implement via 3rd part support.

      Which is just another way of saying, Vista has some features and doesn't have the others.

      On the other hand Vista has technologies that OS X, Linux, etc don't have yet and won't have for several years.

      Name one.

      Until OS X or Linux can handle and pre-emptively multi-task GPU operations...

      I think if you talk to the Core Video, Core Audio, Core Animation, and Core Whatever-the-heck developers at Apple, you'd find that you're talking out of your ass. As for Linux, who cares. If they cared about that kind of thing, they'd have implemented it.

      On Vista you can run several CAD/High End graphical applications under the Aero interface and not lose performance in any of the applicat

  8. as usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Well, the one half will complain about delays when a new version is about to be released and the other half will complain afterwards if it was to soon... business as usual.

  9. The column itself says it wasn't a mistake by Eternal+Vigilance · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "With all things considered, did Apple make a serious mistake by delaying Leopard's release until October? I don't think so."

    This seems mostly a case of a poorly punctuated column headline. Given the author himself concludes Apple made the right choice in the face of limited resources, a more clear headline would have been "Leopard's Release Date a Serious Mistake?"

  10. Agreed. by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IF Apple could have gotten Leopard out six months sooner it would have been a coup, but it's better that they miss that target than they release the system in the state that beta-testers were reporting it would likely be in if they released on time.

  11. This article is a Troll by EddydaSquige · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The author poses a hypothetical question that he knows will get the fanboys riled up: "Did make a mistake?". And the disputes his own question saying "No they didn't". This whole "article" is a troll and should be ignored.

  12. Just the same ol' story... by DreadfulGrape · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...which has been re-written ad nauseum for the past six months.

    The average mac enthusiast doesn't give a rat's ass about strategic timing of OS releases. If OS 10.5 wasn't ready until now, that's certainly good enough for me.

    --
    sig has been sent away for a few small repairs...
  13. Missed Opportunity? by blantonl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They could've taken advantage of Vista's losing streak and one upped Microsoft, the author suggests. Isn't Apple going to one-up Microsoft next week? I don't recall Vista all the sudden fixing all it's "issues" and becoming a rock-solid everyone-loving OS since the delay was announced.

    If anything, Apple scored a coup with the delay, since the amount of pissed-off discouraged Vista users has hit a critical mass.

    --
    Lindsay Blanton
    RadioReference.com
  14. This guy is clueless by phillymjs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the main reasons Vista has been so maligned is because it was ridiculously late and Microsoft was desperate to save face... so they started stripping out promised features and shipped it before it was truly ready. The bad reviews were legion. Word of mouth has spread. Even non-technical people have heard of Vista's bad reputation... I've lost count of the posts I've seen on here where someone mentions their surprise that their mom or whoever remarked something on the order of, "Vista? Isn't that the bad one?"

    By holding Leopard back until they were sure it was ready, Apple has laid the groundwork for an even bigger opportunity. There are a lot of people out there who flat out don't like or don't want Vista. Delayed or not, if Leopard gets good reviews in the media and the word of mouth is positive, that's going to give a nice boost to Mac sales.

    ~Philly

  15. Vista is worse than Tiger, nowhere near Leopard by Lexor · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I have a Mac Mini and several PCs. The current Mac OS is better than Vista so I'm not sure why this opinion piece is notable.

    Apple is in the hardware business. If a new version of the operating system is going to move boxes it will do so regardless of the software's actual release date.

    --
    Regards, Lex
  16. Re:Author is clueless by Shadowmist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People that buy apple products aren't technical enough to know if leopard is better than any past build revision of FreeBSD that apple leeched. They buy apple because it looks cute and they can remain oblivious to technology. The author is a clueless monkey if he thinks people suddenly want to buy apple crap because it's build 10.3.1. That's a comment that makes sense only to someone who's entire OS life is spent underneath a command prompt. FreeBSD while an important part of X is only part of the foundation. It's everything else that's on top and underneath that makes the OS something other than a gearhead toy. And since when is making use of Open Source some sort of moral crime? Apple makes it's acknowledgements and last time I checked it's changes are open sourced back in the form of Darwin. Have you tried Darwin and made any real comparison? Or are you just some Linux Nazi who is lashing out with unsubstantive bile for the simple reason that it's not Linux. If so, you're no different than Mac Nazis, or Windows Nazis, or Amiga Zombies that still think there's a future for that last platform, you're acting from unreason.
  17. Apple née Computer by fermion · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I think with the delay of OS X, and the change in name, and the release of the iPhone SDK, Apple has chosen where future growth will lie. They will likely keep making computers, laptop for consumers and towers for pro content creation, but small high profit consumer devices are the future.

    If anything, Apple has decided that 5% of the computer market is all it will have, and little it does will displace the PC from corporate, the only way it can get much more than 10%. However, with good consumer toys, it can be the home electronics supplier for those with disposable incomes.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  18. Macs are not replacing Windows PCs by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Macs are not replacing Windows PCs, they have become Windows PCs. Buyers no longer have to choose Mac OS X or Windows, they can have both. That is the catalyst that is driving the increased sales.

    There is little point in running Linux on the Mac. Mac OS X is a capable *nix box, most FOSS software is not Linux specific and targets Mac OS X as well. Plus Mac OS X has a superior user interface. If someone is running Parallels they are doing so to use Windows XP. Exceptions are rarities such as a developer who needs to do compatibility testing under Linux.

    1. Re:Macs are not replacing Windows PCs by itsdapead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      With a taskbar, I can at a glance see which programs are open as well as which WINDOWS in said programs are open,

      Running programs in the dock have an arrow under them (subtle but easy enough to see). Click-hold or right-click on one of them and you'll get a menu of open windows.

      However, I'd generally conceed the point: I like the Windows XP GUI a lot - most of the issues are "under the hood": security, everybody running as "root" (or having to confirm every action in Vista), registry decay, drive letters, the "shell" filing system not showing up as files, standards (non)compliance, ahh... where to stop...

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    2. Re:Macs are not replacing Windows PCs by Khuffie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And as I've said in other posts, Expose is not an ideal solution. With the taskbar I have an immediate view of all open windows, without any form of interaction. It also encourages a good computing habit in not having a lot of open Windows, since likely I don't need all the windows open.

    3. Re:Macs are not replacing Windows PCs by node+3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Expose is not an ideal solution. With the taskbar I have an immediate view of all open windows, without any form of interaction. Not when you run out of space.

      It also encourages a good computing habit in not having a lot of open Windows Why is that a "good computing habit"?

      In short, you *don't* like the Dock, solely because you can't tell which IM window received a message without clicking a button or key, but you *do* like that the Windows task bar is so limited that it requires you to stay under a certain number of open windows (which certainly requires significantly more clicking and effort than clicking a single icon).

      Anyway, what you want is Growl.
    4. Re:Macs are not replacing Windows PCs by mr_matticus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is keeping the number of windows down a "good computing habit"? There's not a lot of point in a fast, high-RAM computer with a massively multitasking OS if you're not going to use it. Why not leave the applications open that you use often? (This is the reason the red button doesn't close out of certain kinds of applications.) It's not like it's hogging memory that I need, and while staring at a splash screen for a few seconds is fun, why should I?

      If I'm working with a few windows like you do and want easy access to them all, I'll minimize them to the Dock. If I'm working as I usually do, with 10+ windows, I use Expose. For the life of me, I don't know how the taskbar gives you a "view" of ANY window. It tells you what application it is, if you recognize the icon, and a few cryptic letters about it. In order to get any use out of it, you have to move your mouse down to the button and wait for a litle preview to pop up. Instead of doing that, I can tap a mouse button or a key and get an immediate, live view of ALL the windows I have open and can choose it based on sight, rather than memory of the filename.

    5. Re:Macs are not replacing Windows PCs by Stewie241 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can see it both ways. Sometimes you want to slap in whatever disc you have lying around for a quick burn. For my purposes, I use very high quality media because it's what my clients expect, and it has to last a long time. If I was in the sort of job where that didn't matter, I might think differently. I don't think of it as Apple dictating what discs I can use. I think of it as Apple making sure I don't waste my time making unreliable discs that won't last. Garbage in - garbage out.
      Of course... but if I want to burn something that will last, I will do research and invest in media that will last. If I want to burn a bunch of discs that I will use a few times and discard anyway, I don't want to be forced to waste my money on expensive media.

      I'm hesitant though to assume that this was the logic behind it... I somehow doubt that Apple decided to design hardware that specifically rejected certain discs. My guess is that they just didn't test the design enough and do enough iterations of the hardware to make sure it worked with media that other drives have no trouble with.

      Not sure I buy it being a software thing... wait states and cycles and timing should all be handled by the CPU and motherboard chipset. Never seen arguments for this being the case. Also not sure what you mean by 'now even Microsoft wants the good stuff'... can you provide a source for that?

      I'm all for reliable, well-built, efficient, high quality cars... but I still don't need a Porsche. I'll take a workhorse vehicle over shiny and pretty any day. Don't think it has anything to do with my age - you have no idea how old I am or you wouldn't have written that.

  19. I'd say the timing is perfect. by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First of all, it's impossible for Apple to time their releases to coincide with Microsoft's release, since MS was stuck in a cycle of delays that ran about six years. Secondly, Tiger is already more than a match for Vista, and finally, just by sheer luck, Leopard arrives on the scene as people are realizing just how utterly mediocre Vista really is.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:I'd say the timing is perfect. by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, I can setup an rsync job in cron and all that crap, but Time Machine made it ridiculously easy

      The key benefit of time machine isn't making the backups, its the ease of finding and retrieving files from the archive. That's the real breakthrough.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  20. Pointless to say the least by Cannelloni · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I actually read TFA called "Leopard's Release Date a Serious Mistake". A few lines down the author puts it this way: "With all things considered, did Apple make a serious mistake by delaying Leopard's release until October? I don't think so." So what was the point of the article?

    Well of course Apple did the right thing when they decided to release Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard when it was good and ready, and not in beta form as that other software house which will not be mentioned sometimes do with its operating systems.

    I don't see why Apple should act in any other way but to keep pumping out super-solid software and hardware. (The iPhone was a particularly impressive release, but most Apple products nowadays are very carefully tested. A notable exception being the very first generation MacBook Pros some years ago which were very buggy, and in many cases treated as DOAs and promptly replaced by Apple.)

    A thorougly scatterbrained and rambling article in other words.

    --
    Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
  21. Apple didn't miss out on anything by Ragnarr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sounds like a fanboy was pissed he couldn't get Leopard back in July. Apple made the right decision by delaying the release of Leopard. Several people on boards I frequent were beta testers and were very vocal in letting everyone know that Leopard was not a "finished" product back then. They would've released something incomplete just like M$; not a good idea. I would say that the only thing Apple lost out on was orders for the new imac/macbooks since many of us were waiting until we were sure that we'd either get Leopard installed or qualify for the updater at a reduced price. I'm definitely happy I bought my new imac at the beginning of October. And yes, it really is that much better than Windows..

  22. I'd rather they have it right by JohnnyGTO · · Score: 3, Insightful

    then early. That alone one ups Vista.

    --
    Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
  23. Re:Apple needs to come out with 10.5 of all system by caseih · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I agree completely, at least with the last part of your comment. Right now Apple has a product for every part of the market *except* the market that most home consumers are in. Consider that Dell sells a number of machines aimed at a home market that run for between $400 and $1000 for a complete system. Apple has absolutely nothing in that price rance except the Mac Mini, which is hardly a capable machine with its slow hard drive. Apple badly needs a small tour unit that can come to between $800 and $1000 with a monitor! Until then they are missing out on a huge market that thinks the iMac is too expensive for them, and the Mac Mini isn't enough computer. And actually the Mac Mini is really expensive too, for what it is. No keybard, no mouse, no monitor, all for about $500-$600. I'm the first to say that when you compare laptops, or even iMacs to business workstations, Apple is the same price or cheaper. But not so for the home market, one dominated by cheap whitebox PCs and Dells. I'm not going to suggest that Apple sell OS X for non-Apple harware. Just that Apple needs to start addressing the needs of this market in terms of hardware. I know of half a dozen close friends and relatives who would have bought Apple had Apple actually had something available.

  24. At least half right, anyway by abb3w · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The should have released it 'on time' regardless if that made it feature-poor and buggy. These comentators don't understand Apple customers. Apple customers value quality. You try to sell them crap and they will eat you alive.

    I'll join in with the chorus of "Bullshit" as to the position on Apple Customers. Apple Customers value Shiny, and will continue to swarm accordingly. Steve Jobs would have to release at least two and probably three gold-plated turds in a row before this would change noticably.

    On the other hand, I'll agree with your assessment that Apple made the right call to keep to their development timetable. In the long run, I believe the continued evolutionary approach Apple is using, where users can be confident that the new features will still be bolted to solid and reliable underpinnings, will net them more customers. Reliability issues don't affect short term sales as much as long-term. If your OS is unreliable, unstable, buggy, and riddled with usability and security nuisances, it is more likely to get a reputation that way and users are more likely to look at something without such a reputation.

    The discussion on the local Mac mailing list isn't about whether to switch from Mac to PC, but whether users of X.4 really want to pay for X.5, or see what comes out in X.6. A minority of starving budget-strained starving students with X.3 are waiting for X.6 also, but remaining users of X.2 through X.3 versions seem to be generally for upgrading. In contrast, if even half of current Windows 2000 users had switched to Vista when it came out, Vista would have almost double its present market share.

    It's not that Apple makes such wonderful products; it's that the dominant alternative is so bad, it's market position is threatened by a collective of hobbyists. All Apple needs to do to win is try and continue making sure their products contain as little obvious SUCK as possible. Solid, certain, evolutionary baby steps. Even when making the giant leap from OS 9 to OS X, Steve sold dual-boot systems for about three years. If Bill required every Vista system include a license to dual boot to XP, he'd have much happier users. (Not happy, perhaps, but not rioting.)

    --
    //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    1. Re:At least half right, anyway by ynososiduts · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I beg to differ. Most Linux users don't use Compiz or Beryl. KDE 4 is in use by very few people and is just trying to appeal to the shiny crowd. Linux users who have been Linux users for more than a few years probably realize that KDE 4 and Compiz are a big waste of resources. I remember trying to run SuperKaramba on my Core Duo, and the use of one widget ended up putting a consistent 40% load on my CPU. I think the only reason KDE (not Linux, there is still Gnome and XFCE) is going shiny is to keep up with Vista and OS X.

      --
      622677120
  25. Normal users... by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...are not like you and me. They'll never try out an OS just to "check it out" like we might when there's a new distro that's supposedly better. The very last thing that Apple wants are Windows users that are finally convinced to switch, then find out that this sucks and has almost as many issues as Windows, only to move back. Not only have you probably lost them for the next 5-10 years, you'll probably get a lot of anti-marketing "Yeah, I tried a Mac a few years ago, it was all overhyped so don't believe them" that'll mean others won't bother at all.

    IT geeks haven't got as much marketing power as we think. Oh, I can go on about the advantages of Linux all day but most of them people will think "sure, for him it might work". Vanity works much better, like "Hey Bill could do it, and I'm at *least* as good with computers as him". Same goes the other way around, if you hear someone "like you" giving something a bad review, you'll pay attention. That's just the way it works in all markets, and makes plain old sense. If you want to do print work, you don't read a webdesigner's review of GIMP you read a print worker's review. And with that perspective it makes perfect sense for Apple to wait until it's ready.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  26. One-upped? by suv4x4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    According to an article on OSWeekly.com, Apple missed a big opportunity by not releasing Leopard soon. They could've taken advantage of Vista's losing streak and one upped Microsoft, the author suggests.

    OSWeekly sounds as if Leopard is the first OS Apple is about to release. Tiger is for most practical purposes just as good OS as Leopard. Leopard is a gradual improvement.

    Plus it only is starting to become obvious in the recent 2-3 months how many problems Vista (still) has. The announcement of XP SP3, the oddly early Vista SP1 in Q1 2008, the extended OEM XP support period, the Vista-to-XP downgrade new policy.

    And Leopard is here right for the holidays. I'd say, timing is as good as it could be. Perfect-storm-like good.

    OSWeekly is just trolling for visits, and we're suckers for it.

  27. Re:Apple needs to come out with 10.5 of all system by MsGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The Mac mini is capable enough for Granny or Aunt Ethel or Junior and Missy, which is the market that it is largely pitched to. It's intended as a "second computer" for the kids or as a first computer for "seasoned citizens."

    As it turns out, the MacBook is the Mac most people are buying. It is a competitive laptop to all but the bargain-basement craptops that Dell, Lenovo and HP sell. Get beyond the loss-leader "hacked by Chinese" craptops and you will find that MacBook is pretty damn competitive with the competition's lappies.

    And also, Mac OS X Tiger tends to run better on less RAM than Vista. So people go to, say, Fried Electronics, mess with a midrange lappie or desktop hobbled by Vista, then go check out the MacBook and feel the difference. If the track record is any indication, Leopard will be faster than Tiger on new and 1-2 year old hardware. It might suck on G4s but that's the outside realm of the machines that can run Leopard.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  28. Re:Right, they should have followed Microsoft's le by networkassault · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's exactly what happened to Copeland back in the nineties. Apple delayed and delayed Copeland, the developers were arguing with each other, and no work was getting done. When Copeland came out as a Beta, it was almost as bad as Windows Me. The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that, instead of being satisfied with Copeland Beta or trying to save face after the delay (like Microsoft with Me and Vista), they began to search for a way to salvage the OS. They did so by buying NeXT and bringing back Steve Jobs. The end result was, of course, OS X.

    --
    "I'm glad I'm going to die because, when I do, the world's gonna go to the dogs." -Me on aging and the next generation.
  29. Re:Apple is bound by hardware penetration. by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The only way for Apple to make a dent is to start the long road of releasing Mac OS for standard wintel hardware.

    This will not happen until MS's monopoly market share is seriously weakened or broken completely. Look, MS has monopoly influence for desktop OS's. Trying to compete with them means expending more resources than they do, for the same amount of gain. It's just bad business. Every company that has tried has failed. MS's monopoly allows them to introduce artificial problems with their competitor's products. It is simply a losing proposition.

    Apple has taken the classic route of dealing with the monopoly by bypassing it with a complete, vertical supply chain. By bundling OS X (their real innovative product) with their hardware, they put themselves in competition with Dell, Gateway, Lenovo, and Toshiba, none of whom have a monopoly that can be leveraged against them. While MS can arbitrarily break compatibility with OS X, Dell has no such ability. Sure they can make up nonstandard connectors for hardware, but unless they can get Gateway, Lenovo, and Toshiba on board as well it won't hurt Apple as much as Dell.

    Apple would be stupid to un-bundle OS X and their hardware at this point. Slowly eating away small bit of market share and hoping others will do the same is their only viable business model. Maybe if they ever get to 30% share or thereabouts the situation will change. I know everyone wishes Apple would do this because they want to be able to buy the OS separately, but the likely cost is Apple going out of business or canceling their OS entirely. If you truly want to buy OS X for generic x86, the best bet is to hope the courts will actually break up MS's monopoly at which point the market will force Apple to unbundle to remain competitive. Otherwise, be prepared or a very long wait for this, if it ever happens.

  30. Uh, no. by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, Apple doesn't need to release Leopard to stay ahead of Microsoft or one-up them. OS X 10.2 was already better than Vista, and was better than Windows XP for that matter.

    Second, until Apple starts selling OS X for generic x86 hardware, they're not competing directly with microsoft; they're selling a competing platform. That OS X now runs on Intel isn't relevant; it's still locked down to run only on approved, official Apple-branded Intel hardware. They're not competing with Microsoft for a share of the desktop/notebook *OS* market; they're competing with Dell, HP, Asus, eMachines, etc. for the desktop/notebook *platform* market.

    Apple sells complete solutions, not operating systems. The day Apple decides to go toe-to-toe against Microsoft and releases an OS X that you can install on any OEM or homebuilt x86 box, then we'll see how they compete against Microsoft. My guess is, provided they have the driver support, they'll beat Microsoft silly, no contest. The driver support is, however, a major issue, and a non-trivial one.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  31. Re:Vista's not so bad by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Vista's honestly not that bad. Even then, it's still a scam and a disappointment because it was sold as the next generation, second coming, next revelation and revolution of computing as we know it.

    And it turned out to be essentially XP SP3.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  32. Even TFA Disagrees with TFA's Premise by DECS · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When you title your article "Leopard's Release Date a Serious Mistake" it's a bit weak to say in the last paragraph of the article:

    "With all things considered, did Apple make a serious mistake by delaying Leopard's release until October? I don't think so."

    This isn't even an opinion, it's just a sensationalist, uninformed headline we've already read, with nothing backing it up, not even the author. What a waste of time.

    -
    The Great Google gPhone Myth - Pundits have seized upon rumors of a new mobile phone product from Google as their golden ticket for bashing the iPhone. The "gPhone" is the perfect foil for fear-based rumormongers because it's a secret Google han't said much about publicly. That lets the wags blow it out of proportion and stretch it into an iPhone Killer. They're wrong, here's why.

  33. I don't think so by donutello · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You could see the pace of Leopard seeds and the progress you saw in those seeds really slow down while the iPhone was in development and then see the pace pick up as the iPhone was getting ready to hit the shelves.

    --
    Mmmm.. Donuts
  34. Re:Apple needs to come out with 10.5 of all system by MsGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But that Mac mini has something the Dell doesn't: an easy to use, largely exploit-free operating system. (note I didn't say completely exploit-free: there are holes in the default install of Mac OS X, and there no doubt will still be some in X.5) Compare that to Vista, which although improved is still a security nightmare. Consider also that chances are that Dell will not have enough RAM to run Vista properly, so it will be a usability nightmare.

    Seriously. The Dell can't compete with a Mac.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  35. Re:Apple annoys people by teg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The hardware is flaky but pretty, and very expensive.

    Good design, good quality at a price point which gives good value for money for those who appreciate that.

    The real question is, if Apple got all of these people to start running a desktop UNIX, what can Linux do to follow that lead?

    Here are a couple of issues that are important to me:

    • Suspend/resume. Just close the lid, and the system suspends/resumes correctly. I can't remember this working well on Linux ever.
    • hot pluggable displays - e.g. attach a projector for a meeting or continue the work started on the sub when you arrive at the office and attach to the docking station ("booh" to Apple for not having that) or a large screen on your laptop
    • media compatibility. Patents are evil, open source is good, but neither changes the fact that getting media to "just work" is a hassle on Linux. MP3, AAC, quicktime and more.
  36. Tiger already better than Vista, Mac sales are up by gig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft has more software engineers than Apple has employees. Apple is not the problem here. Leopard is not the disappointment.

    Tiger is already much better than Vista, nobody who is running Tiger is suffering. People who bought a new Mac after Tiger shipped and have been running it since were never bothered by Vista, their productivity and satisfaction are high. Mac sales are already up on the strength of the hardware, Tiger, and Intel-compatibility which gives a switcher a way to back out of Mac OS X if they want to return to Windows or Linux on the same hardware. If you have a Mac you are not switching to Vista. If you have Windows, Leopard is not preventing you from switching.

    The only part this theory gets right is that Leopard will be huge. It has improvements for everyone in the community. It has more graphical sophistication, it's a better Unix, it has built-in automatic backup and versioning, it's fully 32/64-bit compatible and inherently multiprocessor. It's one DVD for the whole world that installs and runs full-featured on all Apple computers with a 1 GHz or faster processor and 512 MB or better of RAM, so it will be easy to upgrade from a previous Mac OS X and a lot of people will do that. It will be the only OS available on new Macs right away and many people will take that as a good opportunity to get either their first Mac or their first Intel Mac. Leopard also has a matching pocket version which starts at $299 and comes on a touchscreen iPod instead of a DVD. It's going to be popular.

    Compare the $399 Vista Ultimate DVD with the $399 iPod touch 16GB for both technical merit and consumer excitement. Which of these should a Windows XP user spend their money on? Which will they get more value from. It's laugh out loud.

    Apple already has a Mac and iPod version of OS X, what if they made a generic PC version of OS X and licensed it to Intel and it shipped with every compatible 64-bit Intel EFI motherboard for $50 extra? Then PC manufacturers would get the boom in sales that they wanted from Vista, and people would finally have a good reason to buy a new Sony or HP computer, to go instantly into next-generation processor, firmware, core OS, Web and audio/video standards, 3D interface, and enjoy the real Photoshop finally. What if Apple licensed it to Google? What if they offered it for sale to people who already have a PC? These are the opportunities for Leopard, not beating Vista to market.

    Finally I have to say that delaying a PC operating system by a few months because you shipped the pocket version is about the best excuse ever. Hard to see the cloud for the silver lining with that one. This article was trying, though.

  37. osweekly.com = nobody by rollthelosindice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This site has nothign but google ads and keyword laden reviews. I'd take the opinion of a homeless bum more seriously than this article.

  38. Re:Apple needs to come out with 10.5 of all system by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're assuming that people actually care about a lot of these differences. Correct, that is the assumption.

    I don't see this, people buy the iMac because it's an Apple machine, not because it's an all-in-one form-factor. Which is exactly what I said. All-in-one is not a unique feature (though rare), but it is part of an overall design that appeals to the target audience. The beauty of Mac is that the design doesn't end at the case (there are quite a few wonderful PC cases out there), but goes from hardware to operating system to application software. And that is what people are very willing to pay a premium for, because you just can't get it anywhere in the PC market.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org