Slashdot Mirror


Focus Fusion On Google Tech Talks

Henning Burdack writes "Eric Lerner talks on Google Tech Talks about Focus Fusion, which would be a much cheaper and more feasible technology as a fusion energy source than any other current approach, based upon the dense plasma focus device. The technology will use hydrogen-boron fusion with direct induction of ion energy and photovoltaic conversion of x-ray emission, obviating the need of a steam-cycle and thus resulting in higher efficiencies. High temperatures of 1 billion Kelvin (100 keV) have been reached years ago. It only needs $2 million in funding and two years of research for a proof of concept, and maybe four more years for a prototype with positive energy output. In contrast to other fusion efforts it utilizes the natural instabilities of plasma instead of fighting them. Focus Fusion has been discussed on Slashdot before, and a patent application is also available, going a bit more into detail."

141 comments

  1. Possible conflict of interest by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I looked at the wiki history page on aneuronic fusion, and found that wiki poster 'elerner' had been banned from further edits.
    Now here he is introducing a project that requires millions of dollars in funding.

    Ok, I'm a bit cynical, but this does look like a possible conflict of interest to me.

    1. Re:Possible conflict of interest by miletus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What, because being banned from Wikipedia edits is the best criteria for judging someone's scientific credentials?

    2. Re:Possible conflict of interest by S3D · · Score: 4, Informative

      What, because being banned from Wikipedia edits is the best criteria for judging someone's scientific credentials?

      By itself no, however his wiki entry create strong suspicion of crackpottery:
      -graduate without completing a degree
      -author of alternative cosmology theory denying Big Bang
      -denial of quasar as blackholes
      -life-long political activist
    3. Re:Possible conflict of interest by scottrocket · · Score: 1

      So he's a proponent of aneuronic fusion? No, that's mean, I shouldn't say that.

    4. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    5. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Quixote · · Score: 1

      Mr. Burdack has been pushing Focus Fusion for some time. For example, his letter to the German Chancellor (translated by Google), saying basically the same thing as the intro to the story.

    6. Re:Possible conflict of interest by creativeHavoc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whether this comment has merit right now doesn't matter to me right now. THIS is the reason I love reading slashdot. What other news aggregation site has members who can find stuff like that. First post no less. There is a very distinct intelligence difference here. On the topic itself: It seems energy research has started getting a lot more attention than even cancer research now. Cancer research reports have gotten to the point where you now only hear about it when they have actually done somthing. Energy research postings are still at the stage where they only need to talk about maybe being able to do somthing for it to be newsworthy. I wonder when this will change again, and what it will change to.

      --
      insight through the mind
    7. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 1
      No. I was referring to this page ( I said 'history' earlier. I meant to say 'discussion'. ): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aneutronic_fusion

      which says ( for those who don't RTFA ) :

      Notice: Elerner is banned from editing this article. The user specified has been banned by the Arbitration committee from editing this article indefinitely. The user is not prevented from discussing or proposing changes on this talk page. Posted by Thatcher131 03:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC) for the Arbitration committee. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The bolding is mine.

      Gawd!!! I must be bored today. I'm replying to an AC!
    8. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Bloater · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He's doing experiments on this now half funded by a university and has had funding from JPL for developing this as an energy source for propulsion until NASAs alternative propulsion budget was cut to zero.

      BTW he was banned for reverting libellous material and attempts to imply that things like joining a political organisation make him untrustworthy (well, I suppose he was technically a politician, so maybe he was) and for bigging himself up too persistently - the latter only proves he's a self-righteous arse - so often a problem for scientists.

      > author of alternative cosmology theory denying Big Bang

      No he's not, the cosmology theory is by a nobel prize winning cosmologist. He wrote a book to publicise the theory.

      > denial of quasar as blackholes

      There is no evidence that they are black holes. They a big and dense. It is not known whether or not they have a large mass behind an event horizon entirely separated from the rest of the universe - we merely have no popular theory to establish that they are not black holes but that doesn't make them so. Assertions that they are and must be black holes and that alternative theories makes you a "DENIER" is far more crackpottish.

      > life-long political activist

      What does that have to do with his theories on the use of established fundamental quantum limits on bremsstrahlung and synchrotron radiation for sustaining plasma energy in a DPF plasmoid?

      Yes, lets all stop doing science... Damn that science.

    9. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "I looked at the wiki history page on aneuronic fusion, and found that wiki poster 'elerner' had been banned from further edits. Now here he is introducing a project that requires millions of dollars in funding. "

      I looked at the talk page for it also, the ban is related to the guideline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Self-promotion

      Here are the findings of fact,

      "Eric Lerner

      7) Elerner (talk contribs deleted contribs logs block user block log) is Eric Lerner, an advocate of the plasma cosmology theory. He is engaged in promotion of a "plasma focus device," utilizing a hydrogen-boron nuclear reaction [72] [73].

              Passed 8-0 at 02:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

      [edit] Self promotion by Elerner

      8) Aneutronic fusion, which Elerner has edited extensively is, in part, an treatment of the "plasma focus device" which he is engaged in supporting and raising money for [74] as the director [75] of the Focus Fusion Society.

                      Passed 8-0 at 02:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
      "

      and the resolution

      "Elerner banned

      7a) Elerner is banned from editing Eric Lerner, Plasma cosmology, Aneutronic fusion, and any pages, excepting talk pages, related to his real-life work.

              Passed 5-0 with 2 abstentions at 02:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC) "

      From reading the dispute resolution page - it doesn't appear to me that the judging committee acted in a fair way.

    10. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and for bigging himself up too persistently - the latter only proves he's a self-righteous arse - so often a problem for scientists.

      Self-promotion is a big no-no on Wikipedia. Civility is also important. Lerner has come across as a huge jerk on WP.

    11. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Joebert · · Score: 1

      Cancer research is still active, it's just that now there's alot of organizations setup to collect money for it & they stick to the smaller channels.

      Cheap energy on the other hand, is the next best thing to curing cancer & not as many organizations are setup asking for money to research it yet.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    12. Re:Possible conflict of interest by vlk · · Score: 1

      -life-long political activist

      because only religious freaks can practice the Black Art of Politics

    13. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Nazlfrag · · Score: 2, Funny

      You know, there are far to many oversensitive pansies on WP. Oh, and biographical statements about living persons must cite appropriate references. Your opinion contravenes this, as well as WP:NPOV and WP:OR. As such, I am reverting your statement. ~~~~

    14. Re:Possible conflict of interest by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      How about having mod points that can only be used on posts that are at least an hour older than TFA?


      Why, so the people who come in late and don't RTFA can get modded up too?

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    15. Re:Possible conflict of interest by vyrus128 · · Score: 1

      As a Googler who was present at the talk, I did get the distinct feeling that the guy is just this side of crackpot, and is a little too slick for his own good.

      That said, the science sounds mildly promising, and I don't get the impression he's a scammer -- I think he genuinely believes in a fusion method that may have promise, but is probably a dead end. And I think trying it out just to be sure is probably not an awful idea. The fact that he got himself banned from Wikipedia means he is dangerously close to thinking like a crackpot -- "I have to defend my ideas against all the people wronging them" -- but it's also not very hard to do, especially if you don't like idiots, are impatient or hot-tempered, or are having a bad day. (And I say this as someone who strongly supports Wikipedia.)

      And even if he is a little bit too strong in the support of an idea in the face of some evidence, I don't get the impression that his research area has been proven or demonstrated impossible yet, so why not have someone working on it? Nobody's demonstrated to me that the idea is so improbable as to make funding it actively harmful.

      P.S. I obviously do not speak for Google, or anyone but myself. I don't even think I gained much insight by seeing the talk in person, rather than on the Internet. I just wanted to mention it because it was neat. :-)

    16. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1
      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    17. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Raenex · · Score: 1

      You know, there are far to many oversensitive pansies on WP. There are far too many people who want to use Wikipedia as a vehicle for self-promotion, and then cry foul when they are thwarted.
    18. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      By 'pansies' I meant 'screaming faggots'. Does that help your conundrum?

    19. Re:Possible conflict of interest by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I don't have a conundrum. What I see is 'screaming', feces throwing, and whining from every crackpot and self-promoter who gets turned away from Wikipedia.

  2. Only 6 years away. by calebt3 · · Score: 1

    This has got to be one of the first times I have seen a fusion energy prediction that was estimated to be less than 10-20+ years from being practical.

    1. Re:Only 6 years away. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the recent and obvious example of Dr. Robert Bussard's Inertial Electro-static Confinment method. Which has been talked about at length on this and several other sites recently.

    2. Re:Only 6 years away. by miquels · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except for the recent and obvious example of Dr. Robert Bussard's Inertial Electro-static Confinment method

      Indeed. Unfortunately Dr Bussard has passed away recently. However the project has funding again, and
      apparently they are builing a new prototype, WB7.

      There's a discussion site at http://www.talk-polywell.org/ .

      Mike.

      --
      Living is a horizontal fall
    3. Re:Only 6 years away. by Joebert · · Score: 1

      You haven't been watching for 4 years by any chance have you ?

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    4. Re:Only 6 years away. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After six years of work, it will still be six years away.

    5. Re:Only 6 years away. by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      How long until it is supposed to be practical?

    6. Re:Only 6 years away. by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      Somewhere between 6-12 months, actually. But I have heard fusion predictions before coming here.

  3. No conflict of interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's not a conflict of interest.

    It would be a conflict of interest if he were investing in a company developing the technology, while simultaneously sitting as part of a committee deciding whether or not to give funding for such research.

    This is just a case of somebody advocating an idea, and advocating the funding of further research. Sure, he may benefit from such funding, but that in itself shows no conflict of interest.

    The wiki banning you mention is irrelevant. It's probably just stupid wiki politics at play. If anything, that may be where the conflict of interest arises: in the person or persons who banned him from that wiki. What he's saying may harm them financially (or egotistically), hence they use their power in another area (the wiki) to limit his ability to express those ideas which are disliked.

  4. yah for units of measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kelvin (K) =/= kilo electron volts (keV)

    1. Re:yah for units of measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  5. Credibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Being banned from Wiki meant he did something. So, what gets you banned from Wiki? It could be innocent or it could be someone who is trying to control what information makes it onto Wiki. Someone who is trying to censor something makes me wonder what he's trying to censor.

    Bottom line: maybe being banned doesn't reflect on his scientific credentials but it does make me worry about his credibility.

    1. Re:Credibility by Bloater · · Score: 1

      He was over publicising himself and his theory and arguing an awful lot. He's basically an arsehole that's why he was banned.

  6. Another Company... by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    is doing a demonstration project, but $2 million doesn't by crap these days. It takes more than $2million just for the power supplies.

    Google for "Tri-Alpha Energy"

    1. Re:Another Company... by bombastinator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      agreed. The number is suspiciously low. It is small enough for private funding, however, which puts it deep into possible scam territory. If this has been around for a while and the guy is publicly looking for money it implies he has already been refused for a bunch of grants. If there are no refused grant applications, then it gets more creepy. The patent may be another sign.

      IMHO anyone interested in investing in this guy who is not a university or reserch institute should be extremely careful. Like put a radio ankle bracelet on him careful.

  7. So far not so crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't know about this guy's background, but so far (still watching) he hasn't said anything crazy that signifies obvious crack-pottery. There's been o zero-point energy nonsense, and he's using standard terminology to explain things in a way that would make sense to someone with a little background in the subject. The new bit seems to be clever use of plasma instability to get the energy density required to initiate fusion. I'm not a plasma physicist (just particle physics), so I can't critically evaluate the details of the method. So far I'd believe this is plausible, but I don't know enough to be willing to give this guy any money.

    And for gosh-sakes, fix the article summary. keV = kilo electron volts, not Kelvin!

    1. Re:So far not so crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Oh, and other signs the physics is probably legit:
      • Actual experiments at various scales
      • Multiple institutions testing these ideas (I don't mean the 3 companies he lists at the beginning, but rather the various researchers working on dense plasma focusing.)
      • Acknowledgment of challenges, and explanation of how they were overcome.
      That still doesn't say whether it's a practical power source, but at least he is starting with reasonable science.
    2. Re:So far not so crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, the high temperatures occur in spots that are _microns_ in dimension. (Lerner's symposium paper, not peer reviewed) Plus power generation assumes that you can pulse the thing at thousand of times per second without destroying the device or poisoning following pulses with the reaction products. Even if the physics holds up, the engineering problems are significant.

    3. Re:So far not so crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I finally got to the part where they capture the power, and that seems a little tricky. They need to extract the energy from the outgoing ion beam and the X-rays. That sounds difficult, and the discussion of the 1000s of foils needed to capture the X-ray energy sounds like a difficult thing to mass produce.

      Oh, and in the presentation he says the pulse rate is 330 Hz.

    4. Re:So far not so crazy by Oink · · Score: 1

      Regarding the article summary..

      You are the one that is mistaken. In physics one often refers to many varying energy units. When we talk about energy in Kelvin, we are actually referring to the boltzmann factor, kT.

      For T = 1E9 K, and k_boltzmann = 8.6E-5 eV/K you get 86.7keV (which is in agreement with the summary).

      --
      ----------------- Oink. Moo. rarr! -----------------
    5. Re:So far not so crazy by nsciphysics · · Score: 1

      I am not a plasma physicist or a particle physicist (I'm in condensed matter) but 100 keV is equivalent to about 1.16 billion Kelvin. (1e5 eV) x (1.6e-19 J/eV) / (1.38e-23 J/K) = 1.16e9 K It seems the summary is correct.

    6. Re:So far not so crazy by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1
      I'd say do be careful. If the guy is a flake (and I have no knowledge either way) then is it possible he's keeping something alive that should be kept alive despite this? If there's value in the science and he's just doing a cut & paste plus control & money trip, it could sink the idea as surely as linking it to Atlantis.

      However the percentage of nice people vs egregiously annoying people among good scientists probably correlates well with the population at large, so it's important to discriminate between his contributions to energy research and whether or not you'd invite him to dinner.

      Look at the science and follow the method, I think. And nail down the scope of what he's trying to accomplish with that $2M before you fork out the cash. He could be a good scientist and a bad project estimator. But if you're a good venture capitalist you'll know all that, anyway. Sounds like the guy needs a minder.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    7. Re:So far not so crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only you guys would use the metric system you wouldn't have this sort of units confusion.

  8. Re:second post(3rd 4th or 5th are fine too)!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Don't give up on your dreams! You'll get that "first post" someday. I haven't lowered my expectations of you. You are good enough, fast enough, and doggone it, people love you. Keep shooting for the stars, early post man.

  9. More of a research device by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is one of a number of devices that can produce some fusion, but don't put out more energy than is put in. Forty years ago, this idea looked more promising. There was a fusion demo of a "plasma pinch" fusion system at the General Electric pavilion of the 1964 World's Fair. So far, no variation on this scheme has come even close to breakeven.

    1. Re:More of a research device by Fred_A · · Score: 1


      This is one of a number of devices that can produce some fusion, but don't put out more energy than is put in. Forty years ago, this idea looked more promising. There was a fusion demo of a "plasma pinch" fusion system at the General Electric pavilion of the 1964 World's Fair. So far, no variation on this scheme has come even close to breakeven.

      Of course fifty years ago we didn't know about the time cube so it's no wonder it didn't work...

      (haven't read TFA, so don't really have an opinion on focus fusion anyway)
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  10. Cool! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great! In a few years I can use this to power my flying car with built in Phantom games console running Duke Nukem Forever!

  11. Good comprehensive video... by Braintrust · · Score: 4, Interesting

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606

    In a proper and decent world, men like Robert Bussard would be heroes to our children, and household names that have high schools named after them... his concept of a fusion ramjet, the Bussard Ramjet, from Known Space and other places... is still the only realistically viable idea for intersteller travel...

    IANANP... would love someone who is to break this video and it's ideas down... would it work?

    peace

    --
    Years later, a doctor will tell me that I have an I.Q. of 48, and am what some people call "mentally retarded".
    1. Re:Good comprehensive video... by stevelinton · · Score: 5, Informative

      While I have no problem with Bussard as an interesting engineer the fusion ramjet is (sadly) not even a little bit viable.

      Briefly there are two problems:

      1. ordinary hydrogen is very hard to fuse. Even at the centre of the sun the average proton takes about 10^10 years to fuse.
      Since the comrpressed interstellar gas is streaming through your ship at roughly lightspeed, even if "pinch" in your magnetic fields is 1km long, you have to get a decent proportion of it to fuse in 3 microseconds, so you need to achieve, in your pinch, temperature and density far far higher than at the centre of the sun. This seems difficult at best.

      2. the interstellar medium (we now know) is best thought of as more like a froth than a uniform gas. Supernova shocks and other upsets clear "bubbles" and after a while almost all the gas ends up packed into relatively thin "bubble walls". Incoveniently, the Sun is sitting in the middle of a bubble several light-years across, so the interstellar gas is a very very thin round here.

            Steve

    2. Re:Good comprehensive video... by Usquebaugh · · Score: 1

      Don't forget to mention when he had power at the AEC how he fucked with funding decisions to favor tokamak and thereby left us with the ITER project to the exclusion of all other avenues. Bussard should never have been given any more government money after that little stunt. In fact locking him up for mis-appropriation would have been the correct thing to do.

      Also, the most impressive result from the polywells was the last one and was not discovered until they had dis-mantled the machine. I want a repeatable process not some one hit wonder with dubious credentials.

      Personally, I still have hope for the cold fusion guys, if only because of all the shit that mainstream scientific religion heaped on them. I would see it as nothing more than karma smoothing out the wrinkles.

    3. Re:Good comprehensive video... by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree... although you can't forget people like Philo Farnsworth either. Fortunately he has had some high schools named after him, but he still isn't as well regarded as he should be. Besides inventing a common household appliance that is in nearly every home around the world, he also came up with some of the original line of research that Dr. Bussard used to follow up on when the Polywell was built.

      Farnsworth was a researcher who knew vacuum tube electronics better than nearly any other engineer/researcher that I've ever read about, and was in a position to see the potential of taking the same knowledge that he used to build the first scanning CRTs (Cathode-ray tubes... aka the monitor you may be reading this post with, if it isn't LED or plasma) and in turn figure out how to make a fusion device with the same technology. Unfortunately, people with the skill sets necessary to explore other concepts from vacuum tubes simply don't exist any more, as it isn't a "cool" or interesting area of research any more.

      Bussard certainly knew about Farnsworth, and his Polywell reactor was designed explicitly to overcome some of the limitations of the IEC reactor that Farnsworth built, but to follow the same general line of reasoning for how fusion could occur. Polywell certainly is a different concept, but it is something that has been built on previous research.

  12. I Can See It Already. by MrCrassic · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I am not a physicist, but does anyone other than myself see the next "Perpetual Motion Machine" coming to rise? If $2M isn't enough to buy even the cheapest of power supply plants, then I highly doubt that you can build yourself a plasma-generating machine on that money alone.

    Hell, if that were possible, it would have definintely been done already. Some executives in this world can shake that much pocket change out of their pants. Daily.

    1. Re:I Can See It Already. by SpaceballsTheUserNam · · Score: 0

      "Hell, if that were possible, it would have definintely been done already."

      Well then it's a good thing not everyone thinks like you.

      --
      \.
    2. Re:I Can See It Already. by Varun+Soundararajan · · Score: 1

      In this house we obey the laws of Thermodynamics. Period.

  13. word to the wise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These people invariably claim that their research has been suppressed. If we've learned one thing from magnetic fusion research in the 20th century, it's this: Fusion is Difficult. Believing that it's easy just leads to disappointment.

    One factor of many: plasmas are prone to a host of instabilities, and 'stability' usually involves tradeoffs between one type of instability and another. So when somebody tells you "my plasma is stable", it should set off warning bells. The honest man will tell you the limits of stability.

    As Artsimovich put it so eloquently in 1961, "Initial belief that the doors to the desired region would open smoothly at the first powerful pressure exerted by the creative energy of physicists has proved as unfounded as the sinner's hope of entering Paradise without passing through Purgatory. We do not know how long we will be in Purgatory."

    We got into the Space Age by way of the Cold War, but what will push us into the Fusion Age?

    1. Re:word to the wise by miletus · · Score: 1
      >We got into the Space Age by way of the Cold War, but what will push us into the Fusion Age?

      Peak oil?

    2. Re:word to the wise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One factor of many: plasmas are prone to a host of instabilities, and 'stability' usually involves tradeoffs between one type of instability and another. So when somebody tells you "my plasma is stable", it should set off warning bells. The honest man will tell you the limits of stability.
      The whole point of their approach is to take advantage of the instability of plasmas, in rather clever ways, see the video; it's well worth the time. Also, he doesn't claim to have a stable plasma, why do you claim that?
    3. Re:word to the wise by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      Peak oil?
      Unfortunately not. While oil will run out within decades, there is still plenty of coal and gas around. Quite enough of it to cause incalculable damage to the world if we don't stop using it. Fusion will probably not get popular until it can demonstrate lower prices than fission.
    4. Re:word to the wise by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      That won't even get us to start using fission again, and we already know how to do that sufficiently well to more than supplant our oil and coal consumption...

      Energy research will be stuck with the cripplingly impractical until environmental activists drop their lifestyle agendas.

  14. Elementry by Joebert · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    This article is a bit over my head, but I get the feeling it's similar to using a magnifying glass to make ants explode.

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
  15. Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BlackGriffen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He said it was crackpot. I didn't try to get him to go into details, but he basically mentioned the same stuff you did - stellarators, etc. What's more, there is the crack-pottery in the clip about how all the people in the field are in a conspiracy to deny his idea funding. I know these people - you might find some or even a majority who would be so unscrupulous, but nowhere near enough to maintain such a conspiracy. So, I would tend to think that you're right.

    Basically, this guy is probably guilty of exactly what he accuses the rest of the fusion community of - he's fixated on his idea. He apparently won funding from the navy, so there's a chance his group could prove me wrong, and I hope that they do, but I doubt it.

    1. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by Zouden · · Score: 3, Informative

      That last link is to a different project: Bussard's Polywell fusor. That one is scientifically sound and is currently the most hopeful method of energy-positive fusion. Bussard built several working models before he died earlier this year.

      --
      "A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"
    2. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by visualight · · Score: 1

      What's more, there is the crack-pottery in the clip about how all the people in the field are in a conspiracy to deny his idea funding.

      I've watched the video once and skipped through a second time now...I don't see where you got this from. Can you provide a time reference?
      Also, as far as crack-pottery goes, is there anything statement from him that isn't true, or grounded in real science? In the comments here today I see a few "...sounds fishy to me..." type statements but no one points to anything concrete.
      In my opinion, for all the money we waste on dumb shit every year, I say give the man 2 mil and see what happens. Make Haliburton pay it, they owe us big time.
      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    3. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BlackGriffen · · Score: 1

      For the technical problems, look no further than BlueParrot's comment a little ways down thread.

      For the crackpot-esque funding claims, just look for his claims about the DOE "defending their rice bowl." If you had any idea how the funding process works you'd know that the decisions of who to give a grant to aren't directed primarily by a bunch of territorial bureaucrats, it's made by scientists, his fellow peers who would actually be able to measure the merits of what he is proposing better than anyone. Frankly, I would believe that some fraction of the scientific community was capable of the behavior he accuses them of (saying, "Screw humanity, I want to defend my income"), but not enough that he wouldn't be able to get any funding from the DOE, NSF, or some other agency if he really tried. I guarantee that there would be enough scientists who would tend to put the interests of humanity first to get the level of funding he's talking about, if he could convince enough of them that his idea had merit.

      The navy, on the other hand, has different funding priorities. Because their budget is vastly bigger and their priority is to get an edge/prevent enemies from getting an edge, they'll be more willing to take a "see what sticks" kind of approach. I mean, just Google for "navy cold fusion" to get some idea of how they're willing to fund an idea even if it's reputation is "radioactive" in academia. You can tell, also, that he's used to pitching this idea to national security types - he mentions several times in the video how the "Chinese will develop it." That's exactly the sort of argument you use if you want o pry funding out of military hands, not academic ones.

      So, although I would love nothing more than to be wrong on this one, I think that the guy is just plain wrong and he went into crackpot territory with his obsession with his idea.

    4. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by Bloater · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about Lerner or Bussard? I'm confused on who this thread is on about?

      The "defending their rice bowl" comment and the Navy funding was Bussard, but the comments about "he", "him" and "his" don't indicate that the comments are about anybody but the topic of the slashdot article - ie, Lerner.

    5. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you had any idea how the funding process works you'd know that the decisions of who to give a grant to aren't directed primarily by a bunch of territorial bureaucrats, it's made by scientists, his fellow peers who would actually be able to measure the merits of what he is proposing better than anyone.

      Yeah, the scientists who are his peers are the ones working on the OTHER fusion projects which require funding. Think about it for a while, then you'll understand.

      Like the other reply said, that was Bussard, not the guy being discussed here. But when Bussard said it, there was a reason for it. Don't be so naive as to think the politics of funding and of credit don't enter into the decisions of scientists when they review the work of others.
    6. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by delt0r · · Score: 3, Informative

      As far as sound physics are concerned, neither is to be given much weight. Both require non equilibrium plasmas to work as advertised and that just does not work (The ions collide with electrons far more often than they fuse). In fact unless they can find a massive flaw in our current understanding of plasma physic thermodynamics neither can break even. Well the Bussard one defiantly, since its constant state. At least this one is a pulse device (aka not in equilibrium).

      Pretending that this is a non issue without backing up with some calculations/data is bad science. Especially when there is quite a lot of analysis indicating that at best they get around 3-5% of the power out as they put in (real devices less than 0.001% or worse). Thus without some high efficiency (>>90%) power recirculation method they can't work as a power production device.

      This view is the general consensus of held by physicist, not just my view.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    7. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Both require non equilibrium plasmas to work as advertised and that just does not work (The ions collide with electrons far more often than they fuse). In fact unless they can find a massive flaw in our current understanding of plasma physic thermodynamics neither can break even. Well the Bussard one defiantly, since its constant state.

      And Bussard had responded directly to that issue:

      Ions spend less than 1/1000 of their lifetime in the dense, high energy but low cross-section core region, and the ratio of Coulomb energy exchange cross-section to fusion cross-section is much less than this, thus thermalization (Maxwellianization) can not occur during a single pass of ions through the core. While some up- and down- scattering does occur in such a single pass, this is so small that edge region collisionality (where the ions are dense and "cold") anneals this out at each pass through the system, thus avoiding buildup of energy spreading in the ion population (Ref. 14).

      In layman's terms, the Polywell design fuses ions faster than they maxwellianize, thanks to the ratio of time in core to time in edge. The full high level paper from Bussard can be found here [askmar.com].

      You only need to maintain the non-maxwellian distribution long enough for the ions to fuse before they maxwellianize. Thermalization in the outer edge dominates the coulomb interactions from the core more than the collisions dominate the fusion rates. Those are the conditions that allow fusion to occur faster than maxwellianization. No magic, no violation of physics, just a beneficial design that Rider and Nevins both overlooked in their assumptions.

      This view is the general consensus of held by physicist, not just my view.
      And it's a very good thing that science isn't a democracy. There are many researchers who do not agree with the consensus. Some from MIT and University of Wisconsin-Madison.

    8. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Both require non equilibrium plasmas to work as advertised and that just does not work (The ions collide with electrons far more often than they fuse)...Pretending that this is a non issue without backing up with some calculations/data is bad science.

      Mod parent down. Ions do not collide with electrons, they collide with each other! This is worse than the article calling KeV(Kilo electron Volts) degrees Kelvin. When spouting off about bad science and such, don't mod up posts getting particle physics 101 stuff wrong.

    9. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by delt0r · · Score: 3, Interesting
      First of all I am not a layman. I am a physicist, and electrostatic fusion has been a hobby of mine for some time. There is a link you didn't specify I think too. Also the link to the other /. article is in fact to this guys work, not Bussards, also the guy in question even posts.

      Anyway I have read all the stuff I could find on his device and other ES confinment devices. I think the paper you want to ref is:
      "The Advent of Clean Nuclear Fusion: Superperformance Space Power and Propulsion", Bussard, Robert W.,57th International Astronautical Congress (IAC 2006).

      This and all other "publications" of his do not explain anything. They just assert that some fact is correct, often in the face of other facts. No math, no explanation on other experiments, no justifications at all. Example in the above he claims the following: "giving DD fusions at over 100,000x higher output (at 1E9 fus/sec) than all prior similar work at comparable drive conditions (Ref. 3)." yet normal commercial neutron source fusors get 1e9 events per second wikipedia and 1e8 are achieved at lower voltages and don't need high B fields, and also where are the error bars? Then there are scaling laws which are simply not backed up. In fact with everything I have read it appears that its made up.

      And for the ions to fuse faster than they thermalise would require some black magic in terms of plasma density and thermodynamics and charge distributions, or he thought everyones data on fusion reaction cross sections is completely wrong (and thats arguing against a lot of experimental data from a lot of different places). And I'm assuming D T reactions. P B are 1000's of times worse.

      You can't do physics without some theroy to back you up. You can't answer critics that use theroy that has shown to be a good model in similar situations without justifying why the model is not good in your case. Bussards work does not have or do that. Plain and simple.

      his view is the general consensus of held by physicist, not just my view.
      And it's a very good thing that science isn't a democracy. There are many researchers who do not agree with the consensus. Some from MIT and University of Wisconsin-Madison. Funny how this view changes with the Global warming debate when someone points out flaws in current models.

      Electrostatic fusion is viewed as a black horse, but if you have a good paper on it, it will get published. We want to believe that it can be done. But you must back up your position and at least address known issues with proper exploration of the appropriate models. Just claiming your right and they are wrong is not science.
      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    10. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by delt0r · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking about, did you even go to high school? Or do you really think drugs make you smarter.

      Its a well known fact that energy loss in high temperature plasmas is from ion electron collisions. I have no references to KeV anywhere and yes you do measure temperature in eV and KeV in plasma physics regularly. Just google it for gods sakes. Oh and I teach physics well above a 101 level.

      Please have a nice hot cup of shut the hell up.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    11. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      First of all I am not a layman. I am a physicist, and electrostatic fusion has been a hobby of mine for some time.

      I think your lying, here's why:
      yet normal commercial neutron source fusors get 1e9 events per second wikipedia and 1e8 are achieved at lower voltages and don't need high B fields
      And then you link to a wiki article on FISSION neutron sources. Sure they don't require any voltages be input, but they aren't DD fusion based either now are they? Bussard was extremely familiar with fusion research and wasn't senile or fool enough to assume people didn't know about existing fusor technologies.

      The ions collide with electrons far more often than they fuse
      This is from your prior post, as I pointed out before the problem with IEC isn't ion-electron collisions. If you really where familiar with physics or even IEC as a hobby you'd not be making that mistake. Ion-ion collisions are, of course, the only thing you're worrying about. First year undergrad's know that for pity sake.

      or he thought everyones data on fusion reaction cross sections is completely wrong
      Then you either didn't read his paper as you claimed or you don't know the cross sections yourself. Bussard does not say that fusion to collision ratios favor fusion. My post included the full quote and you either didn't read it or didn't understand it. Bussard's claim is that the ration of fusion to collision is less than 1-1000. He then states that since electrons are thermalizing in the outer edges for >999/1000 of the time, they will fuse before core collisions maxwellianize them.

    12. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by delt0r · · Score: 1
      From the wiki article:

      Commercial fusor devices can generate on the order of 109 neutrons per second
      whos not reading the links?

      As for the other comments. Where is the math? The charge density in the core can't be significantly far from equilibrium. There are a lot of electrons in there. Just saying they will fuse faster. Based on WHAT, oh yea a reference to his own paper that again just writes down a formula and asserts its correctness in this case. Other people in the field who have done the same math come up with a no go answer. If his math is correct we would get much larger yields from the pure fusor devices. The biggest loss in high energy plasmas is from Bremmstrahlung radiation from electrons, the ions thermalize via ion-electron collisions. Even Bussard claim that. Non equilibrium systems make it worse by having low energy electrons, and this pushes the probability of colliding with one up.

      If on the other hand you have no electrons you can't get the plasma density to have any chance of useful fusion.

      Oh I don't have my calculations handy, but i could dig them out. They are not publishable because its been published more than once or twice. But the cross sections of ion-electron collision are just too high. This is supported from experimental data.

      I am a paid scientist. I don't need /. to approve of my qualifications now do I.
      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    13. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      He then states that since electrons are thermalizing in the outer edges for >999/1000 of the time, they will fuse before core collisions maxwellianize them.


      This is obviously nonsense. A single of-centre collision in the core is enough to give the ions involved dramatically different energies ( and keep in mind, you will have D-D and T-T side collisions as well , or B-B and p-p in the case of p-B fusion ), and they will thus obviously end up at different potential heights. Are you suggesting they would then "thermalize" so that they all end up on the same potential height? That would be prohibited per the laws of thermodynamics, unless you are feeding quite a bit of energy into the plasma ( much more so than the fusion power you could hop to get out of it in fact ). You can't restore a non-maxwellian velocity distribution through a spontaneous process, so I call bullshit here.
    14. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by Werthless5 · · Score: 1

      "first-year undergrad's (sic) know that for pity (sic) sake" Anyone who has taught first-year undergrads knows that first-year undergrads know nothing.

    15. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then you link to a wiki article on FISSION neutron sources.

      So, are you stupid, or merely dishonest? The article mentions several kinds of neutron sources. Spontaneous fission sources are one kind. Accelerator (DD or DT fusion) sources are another. The oil well logging industry has been using high intensity accelerator-based neutron sources for downhole measurements for decades.

      The fact of the matter is, while Bussard touted orders of magnitude higher neutron output than other IEC devices, the absolute neutron production rate wasn't very high compared to other, existing fusion sources. This also shows that 'fusors' are not competitive as neutron sources; a company that was trying to commercialize them abandoned the technology and lives on now as a shell that was turned into a real estate investment firm, as far as I can tell.

    16. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Commercial fusor devices can generate on the order of 109 neutrons per second ...
      whos not reading the links?


      And Bussard's claim:

      These four definitive tests showed true Polywell potential well trapping of ions at ca. 10 kV well depth (with a 12.5 kV drive), with total DD fusion neutron output of ca. 2E5 nts over a period of about 0.4 msec; giving an average fusion rate of about 1E9 fus/sec - over 100,000 times higher than the results achieved by Farnsworth/Hirsch for DD at such low energies, and 100x higher than their best with DD even at 150 kV (Ref. 3)


      If you can buy a commercial fusor with 1E9 neutrons/sec driven at 12,5kV then please provide a link to it. Otherwise it's irrelevant as we are talking about "at comparable drive conditions".


      Where is the math? The charge density in the core can't be significantly far from equilibrium.

      That does not mean one can assume that the charge distribution is uniform.

      If his math is correct we would get much larger yields from the pure fusor devices.

      Have you been following research on multiple potential well formation then? Yoshikawa has some very interesting simulation and experimental results. He goes as far as noting:

      The results strongly suggest that the high neutron production rate should be attributed to not only the well depth but also the unstable behaviour of the potential, i.e. the intermittent peaking of the density in the centre region. A numerical simulation reveals that IEC possesses a favourable dependence of fusion reactions on the injected ion current for the application to a neutron source or a fusion reactor.

        He's not alone in looking at the effects of multiple potential well formation on fusor efficiency either. People at Illinois University, University of Wisconsin, and LANL are all quite interested.


      The biggest loss in high energy plasmas is from Bremmstrahlung radiation from electrons, the ions thermalize via ion-electron collisions. Even Bussard claim that. Non equilibrium systems make it worse by having low energy electrons, and this pushes the probability of colliding with one up...
      Oh I don't have my calculations handy, but i could dig them out. They are not publishable because its been published more than once or twice.


      And what ion and electron density and velocity distributions would you have used? Calculating Bremms for a plasma with oscillating density distributions is quite device specific. All the harder when virtual cathode and anodes come into play. You can't just average it out and then say good enough. You most certainly can't go dismissing experimental results on such a basis. Even if the experimental results are just for a 0.4msec pulse, that's interesting enough results to maybe see how the confirmation test goes. Thankfully it's been funded so we should get some experimental data to work out what the density and velocity distributions might look like in a year or so.

    17. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      So, are you stupid, or merely dishonest? The article mentions several kinds of neutron sources. Spontaneous fission sources are one kind. Accelerator (DD or DT fusion) sources are another...

      The fact of the matter is, while Bussard touted orders of magnitude higher neutron output than other IEC devices, the absolute neutron production rate wasn't very high compared to other, existing fusion sources.


      I'm just a stickler for details like "comparable drive energies". It is dishonest to claim results at 13kV drive are insignificant because a different device can manage similar fusion rates at 120kV. Show me somebody selling fusion devices with 1E9 n/s at less than 20kV drive energies.

    18. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1


      A single of-centre collision in the core is enough to give the ions involved dramatically different energies ( and keep in mind, you will have D-D and T-T side collisions as well , or B-B and p-p in the case of p-B fusion ), and they will thus obviously end up at different potential heights. Are you suggesting they would then "thermalize" so that they all end up on the same potential height?

      No, they won't all end up at the same potential height. Just enough to overcome the collision/fusion cross section ratio. Higher energy ions are going to be passing through the lower energy ions at the edge every orbit, and yes, thermalizing while doing it. That won't entirely restore the original distribution, but when 999/1000 of the ion lifetime is at the edge mean time to fusion should mean time to maxwellianization.

    19. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by delt0r · · Score: 1

      You can't change the laws of physics. Its the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Anything not in equilibrium (in this case Maxwellian velocity distribution) then is relaxes to this state. In this case it relaxes really fast. Electric fields change nothing. Magnetic fields change nothing.

      But i went through other posts of yours. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. What is your academic background? Do you even have one?

      I already know that you won't listen. Dam enough folk have said the same thing to you as i have. But you don't care, you have "faith" in your claims.

      In God we trust. As for the rest of you, show me the data!

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    20. Re:Asked a Plasma Physicist About This by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1


      You can't change the laws of physics. Its the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Anything not in equilibrium (in this case Maxwellian velocity distribution) then is relaxes to this state. ...
      You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. What is your academic background?


      I'm just a comp sci grad with a physics minor. If it's as fundamental as the 2nd law of thermodynamics then help me by pointing out what I'm missing.
      Take 1 ion and introduce it at a given electric potential, it just orbits in and out between ~100% kinetic and ~100% potential energy levels. Continually returning to the same potential level, barring losses to other mechanisms.
      Take 1k ions introduced at the same potential. They likewise orbit back and forth reaching the same initial potential level, barring losses to some other mechanism. Now let's say on a pass 2 of the ions collide in the centre. Now 1 ion is orbiting to a higher potential, 1 at a lower potential and the rest at the original potential. Isn't this a less uniform energy distribution? Shouldn't the ions be tending towards a Maxwellian energy, rather than velocity, distribution? What am I missing?(Barring losses like Bremms which should bring ions(~uniformly) down to lower potential over time).

  16. So many ACs by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why are the majority of Eric Lerner's supporters posting as ACs?

    Is that you, Eric?

  17. Another telltale by mangu · · Score: 1
    It only needs $2 million in funding


    Low enough that someone might come up with the amount and a "hey, what if it works?...". If he had asked for $2 billion, the financiers would insist on a very tightly controlled cash management. $2 million is low enough that he might be left controlling the purse strings.


    If a proof of concept can be done with $2 million, then he should do first a basic prototype in his hobby shop. After all, people have built Farnsworth fusors for decades, and still no one would claim they could build a viable proof of concept within two years for $2 million using a Farnsworth fusor.

    1. Re:Another telltale by budgenator · · Score: 1
      There are picture of these "contraptions" er prototypes all over the site

      Billion Degree Breakthrough at Texas A&M
      In May of 2001, Experiments at Texas A&M University confirmed predictions from Lerner theory that energies above 100 keV (equivalent to 1.1 billion degrees) can be achieved with the plasma focus. This was a big step taken towards environmentally safe, cheap, and unlimited energy.

      Seems like if that was bullshit someone would call him on it, rather than invite him over for a Google tech talk; still if it doesn't really work, it's interesting enough to invest $2M in research to prove it one way or the other. One thing is when I watched the animation of how the thing is thought to work I thought that it was what the Star Trek impulse engines would have had to been like if they existed.
      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    2. Re:Another telltale by Bloater · · Score: 1

      Before the Texas A&M experiments he, apparently, had funding through the NASA advanced propulsion budget, it was actually being funded as an impulse engine :)

  18. Here we go again. by BlueParrot · · Score: 5, Informative

    High temperatures is not the problem, D-T fusion only requires some 16keV, and this is easily achievable using rather cheap voltage source. However, to get more energy out than you get in, you must ensure that this energy stays in the plasma and causes fusion, rather than just radiating right out of it again. In practice this means you need a high density and large confinement time ( basically a measure of how rapidly the plasma loses energy ).

    Now, the issue with fusion using fuels with higher atomic number than hydrogen is that the plasma will contain much more electrons, and this dramatically increases the amount of energy lost as bremsstrahlung when the electrons collide with the nuclei (the increased mass of the nuclei also plays a part ). Direct conversion of X-rays could theoretically help alleviate this as it would allow you to feed the lost energy back into the plasma, problem is, photo-voltaics have nowhere close to 100% efficiency.

    Aneutronic fusion has advantages. You don't have to worry about neutron damage to the reactor vessel. However, when you look a bit closer at it, this isn't such a large advantage after all, because the neutrons are actually quite useful in that they deposit the energy over a quite large volume when they are being absorbed, reducing the stress caused by heating in the device. If it wasn't for the neutrons you would see most of the heat deposited in a comparably thin layer of the plasma-facing compounds. The counter for this is that aneutronic fusion releases the energy as charged particles, potentially allowing for directly converting the energy into electricity.

    Basically, what this whole thing boils down to, is if you are able to achieve sufficiently good direct-conversion efficiency to counteract the increased X-ray losses due to the higher atomic numbers associated with aneutronic fusion. This is why you often see claims of breakthroughs in aneutronic fusion together with claims of either a non-maxwellian velocity distribution or some other remarkable way to reduce X-ray losses. A plasma with a maxwellian velocity distribution cannot sustain aneutronic fusion without being either very large and dense (to re-capture the X-rays) or by somehow capturing the lost X-rays after they leave the plasma and feeding the energy back into it.

    For a non-maxwellian velocity distribution your problem is that even at optimal energies a collision is much more likely to scatter the ions than it is to cause fusion, and restoring the non-maxwellian velocity distribution will require energy (no, you don't get to violate the second law of thermodynamics I'm afraid ). For capturing X-rays your problem is to achieve a good enough conversion efficiency to make up for the dramatically increased X-ray losses.

    With the exception of a few unconfirmed claims, nobody has been able to resolve the above problems (thou Bussard was quite vocal about his polywell device ) and this is pretty much why modern fusion power research uses D-T fusion. It gives the highest amount of energy for the lowest temperature and X-ray losses, at a maxwellian velocity distribution.

    1. Re:Here we go again. by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

      This cuts to the heart of why I'd always questioned the viability of small scale fusion reactors. The sun is a wonderfully efficent fusion reactor because it uses it's mass to contain the reaction and keep it self perpetuating. I've yet to see any form of reactor show the same promise for generating energy. The best so far involves unselfsustained reactions. Break even is seen as the holly grail with each method but without a self sustained reaction it's a very big expensive money pit that produces no power. Unless there's another method of containing a reaction than massive amounts of gravity fusion is likely to remain a pipe dream. Incrementally better than break even isn't going to produce the vast amount of clean cheap power that fusion has promised since it was first proposed. For fusion to work, if it's even possible, is for a fundementally new approach and I've yet to hear of one being even proposed. Cold fusion would have avoided those problems but like all good snake oil it promised something for nothing. Fission is easy, fusion is hard. There's the outside chance of a eureka moment but I'm not holding my breath.

    2. Re:Here we go again. by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      Break even is seen as the holly grail with each method but without a self sustained reaction it's a very big expensive money pit that produces no power.


      Not true. My above post highlighted problems with using high Z number ions because the large quantity of electrons, and relatively low fusion energy gain, makes it difficult to overcome the energy losses. For D-T fusion however ( and possibly D-D fusion ) , the fusion energy is both every high, and can occur at ( relatively speaking ) lower temperatures. As a consequence X-ray losses becomes minor compared to the fusion power provided you achieve a high enough temperature and number density. JET in England has already achieved break-even conditions, and ITER is expected to produce 10 times the energy you put into it. The folowup prototype plant after ITER would produce 25 times the input energy, producing several gigawatts of electricity.
    3. Re:Here we go again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, but the aneutronic reaction is only part of what's going on. There's other reactions (with lower cross sections) also occurring, and those generate plenty of neutrons and other bad stuff, if you're doing the whole thing on an "industrial" scale. Unless you've got some magic way to keep the reaction products and everything else out of the system.

    4. Re:Here we go again. by Usquebaugh · · Score: 1

      JET achieved break even? I thought the closest it came under operating conditions was Q=0.7 Anything else was result extrapolation?

      ITER is going to have Q=10 when they haven't even got Q=1, an order of magnitude improvement. The only thing ITER is going to do is allow the current crop of fusion experts to retire in comfort. The one thing that signals to me that ITER is flawed is that they are working on sub-systems without having proved the main idea. Wasting money on engineering when research is still not finished. Basically, they got so much money they had to find ways to spend it.

    5. Re:Here we go again. by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1


      For a non-maxwellian velocity distribution your problem is that even at optimal energies a collision is much more likely to scatter the ions than it is to cause fusion, and restoring the non-maxwellian velocity distribution will require energy (no, you don't get to violate the second law of thermodynamics I'm afraid ). For capturing X-rays your problem is to achieve a good enough conversion efficiency to make up for the dramatically increased X-ray losses.

      With the exception of a few unconfirmed claims, nobody has been able to resolve the above problems (thou Bussard was quite vocal about his polywell device )


      Bussard was more than vocal, his last experiments that the navy is now repeating where successful. Here's what Bussard himself had to say about the problem you mention:

      Ions spend less than 1/1000 of their lifetime in the dense, high energy but low cross-section core region, and the ratio of Coulomb energy exchange cross-section to fusion cross-section is much less than this, thus thermalization (Maxwellianization) can not occur during a single pass of ions through the core. While some up- and down- scattering does occur in such a single pass, this is so small that edge region collisionality (where the ions are dense and "cold") anneals this out at each pass through the system, thus avoiding buildup of energy spreading in the ion population (Ref. 14).


      In layman's terms, the Polywell design fuses ions faster than they maxwellianize, thanks to the ratio of time in core to time in edge. The full high level paper from Bussard can be found here.

      Your comment that restoring the non-maxwellian velocity distribution will require energy is oversimplified. You only need to maintain the non-maxwellian distribution long enough for the ions to fuse before they maxwellianize. Thermalization in the outer edge dominates the coulomb interactions from the core more than the collisions dominate the fusion rates. Those are the conditions that allow fusion to occur faster than maxwellianization. No magic, no violation of physics, just a beneficial design that Rider and Nevins both overlooked in their assumptions.

    6. Re:Here we go again. by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Parent was referring to the viability of small scale fusion reactors. ITER isn't precisely small scale.

    7. Re:Here we go again. by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      Your comment that restoring the non-maxwellian velocity distribution will require energy is oversimplified. You only need to maintain the non-maxwellian distribution long enough for the ions to fuse before they maxwellianize. Thermalization in the outer edge dominates the coulomb interactions from the core more than the collisions dominate the fusion rates. Those are the conditions that allow fusion to occur faster than maxwellianization. No magic, no violation of physics, just a beneficial design that Rider and Nevins both overlooked in their assumptions.


      So Bussard claimed, but it is clearly nonsense. Where the collisions occur is irrelevant because you need collisions for fusion, and it is the collisions that screw up your mono-energetic energy distribution. You can't have collisions that cause fusion without having collisions that scatter the ions. The bit about the ions thermalising at the edge is also irrelevant since you need high-energy collisions in the core for fusion, and thus you get scattering at the same energies as well, thus distributing the ion energies across the entire spectrum.

      The error in Bussard's claim was the assumption that the ions, after having been scattered in the central region, all reach virtually the same potential height. This is clearly not possible as it would imply you didn't have collisions in the central region, which in turns mean you don't have any fusion. In reality, fusion can only occur through high energy ion-ion collisions, and those are the very same collisions that will screw up your non-maxwellian velocity distribution. This would inevitably result in ions reaching dramatically different potential energies in the potential well, in contrast to Bussard's claim that they will thermalise to the same low energy. Thermalisation alone can NEVER take you from a maxwellian to a non-maxwellian energy distribution. It doesn't matter how you shape your potential well. It follows directly from statistical mechanics.

      In fact, following Bussard's criticism, Rider actually went further and showed that NO fusion device could ever produce excess power if it was to be operated in a non-maxwellian energy distribution. The abstract is here: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1995PhDT........45R
    8. Re:Here we go again. by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      JET achieved break even? I thought the closest it came under operating conditions was Q=0.7 Anything else was result extrapolation?
      Sorry, my bad. I was confusing it with JT-60 which achieved D-D parameters corresponding to Q=1.25 had D-T fuel been used ( Tritium is radioactive and hence most devices use D-D for testing as the cost of tritium handling facilities can be quite large ).

      ITER is going to have Q=10 when they haven't even got Q=1, an order of magnitude improvement.
      Pretty much. The increase is mainly going to come from using a stronger magnetic field ( generated with superconducting magnets ) to achieve a better confinement time and higher number density. Data from JET has also helped pick a plasma shape which will be more optimal than the JET one.

      The one thing that signals to me that ITER is flawed is that they are working on sub-systems without having proved the main idea. Wasting money on engineering when research is still not finished. Basically, they got so much money they had to find ways to spend it.
      I don't quite get what you mean with doing engineering before research. In any complex device like this you will necessarily have to do the physics and engineering research in parallel. Otherwise you have a chicken and egg problem. I.e, you can't do the engineering without determining the physics, but you can't determine the physics without the engineering required to set up the experiment. This is what the ITER project seeks to deal with. It is intended as an experimental device which will provide sufficient information for the engineers and physicists to come up with a prototype for an actual power plant.
    9. Re:Here we go again. by Usquebaugh · · Score: 1

      I rather think the order of magnitude will not be a cake walk to achieve and may well cause major design ramifications. You mention plasma shape but I think that will be just one small hurdle.

      With regards to ITER doing engineering before research, why did they not pay to run JT-60 on D-T at Q > 1. This would have been a huge breakthrough and solidified support, not to mention generated huge result sets to infer from. But instead they left that undone and pressed ahead with their own tests that are not due to achieve break even until 2016!

      The amount of engineering being performed in ITER is far and away more than is needed for a research project. They are trying answer operational questions before they have a working reactor.

      One idea they seem to have totally dismissed is a full scale computer model, if they know how the reactor will work then they can build a simulator for far less cash. If they had run The JT-60 on D-T and then built a full scale model of the reactor and proved that was going to achieve what they said then I would be far happier. Instead they are taking an untested reactor, going to run it at Q=20+, with no prior reactor having run at Q>1. The only computer sims I have read about are woefully incomplete.

      Let me make it clear I'm a huge fan of the idea of fusion. I am not in any way satisfied that any of the major projects have been anything other than job creation. From the lack of oversight, the bias in the funding process, the lack of morality in evaluating other approaches I could think of no better way to delay fusion research than by the use of large unwieldy projects.

      Everybody who is involved with the large projects thinks that ITER will work, but what if it fails or requires more funds than planned? How much better of would we be if other ideas had been followed?

    10. Re:Here we go again. by mako1138 · · Score: 1

      With regards to ITER doing engineering before research, why did they not pay to run JT-60 on D-T at Q > 1.
      Tritium handling is not easy. When they did DT at JET, they spent 10 years developing the tritium system (see chapter 14 of "The Science of JET" by John Wesson, available online). Also, running DT results in nuclear activation of the structure, so a robotic remote handling system needs to be in place. It may not have been feasible to run DT at JT-60 for these and other reasons.

      One idea they seem to have totally dismissed is a full scale computer model, if they know how the reactor will work then they can build a simulator for far less cash. ... The only computer sims I have read about are woefully incomplete.
      Plasma physics simulations represent a trade-off in accuracy and complexity. A full-on EM model gets extremely intractable. The next best approach, particle-in-cell, trades a bit of accuracy for complexity, but still would be essentially impossible on the scale of ITER (10^20 particles). Going to fluid models like MHD loses many important effects. So it's still not possible to make a tractable simulation that preserves essential physical phenomena, unfortunately. Perhaps in a few decades.

    11. Re:Here we go again. by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      The error in Bussard's claim was the assumption that the ions, after having been scattered in the central region, all reach virtually the same potential height. This is clearly not possible as it would imply you didn't have collisions in the central region, which in turns mean you don't have any fusion.

      He assumed that they would return to different potential heights, but that thermalization would return them to a maxwellian potential energy distribution.

        In reality, fusion can only occur through high energy ion-ion collisions, and those are the very same collisions that will screw up your non-maxwellian velocity distribution. This would inevitably result in ions reaching dramatically different potential energies in the potential well, in contrast to Bussard's claim that they will thermalise to the same low energy. Thermalisation alone can NEVER take you from a maxwellian to a non-maxwellian energy distribution.

      Am I missing something fundamental, or are velocity and energy distributions interchangeable? Doesn't having the ions all at the same potential height mean they are all at the same energy? Doesn't a maxwellian energy distribution = uniform potential height? I am honestly asking, many people state this, as yourself, is self evident but I'm just not seeing what I'm missing here.

  19. A cluster by wanted · · Score: 2, Funny

    Imagine a Beowulf cluster powered by fusion energy.

  20. Sounds like a Ford product by CharAznable · · Score: 2, Funny

    In that case I'll call my own miraculous energy device the Taurus Escape.

    --
    The perfect sig is a lot like silence, only louder
  21. Ok, but by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Notice the ppl who are trying to control this article. They are not even physicists. One of them is a software engineer (and in this day and age, everybody who is in the software world claims to be a software engineer, even though the majority have CIS degrees).

    Personally, I am starting to think that he is getting a bit of a bum rap on this. It makes me wonder what is true on wiki. While I like that wiki is taking time to check things, perhaps, it is time for wiki to have subject matter experts do the reviews.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Ok, but by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      Ok, this is waaay off topic, and just shows how ignorant I am, but what the heck is a software engineer, and how do they differ from us plain old programmers? Personally, I choose the title of "God Emperor" whenever I'm allowed to choose a title :-) I even occasionally get junk mail directed towards "God Emperor".

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    2. Re:Ok, but by WindBourne · · Score: 1
      Well, first, I my degree is in Computer Science Degree (well, one of them).
      • A Software Engineer has more of an engineering background. That is they spend more of their education background learning about methodologies according to Engineers (i.e. they write to a spec). They spend their time debating UML design vs. Waterfall.
      • A CSers was taught how to get the most efficient code, and how to jump all over. Roughly, the vast majority of new ideas in computers come from the CS world. Generally, this background is from a math prospective. We spent our time in algorithms, and building OSs, or apps like Mozaic, Apache, Bittorrent, etc.
      • The CISer is computers as taught by the business world. In general, it is more of an intro. It will have a smatter of computers mixed in with a lot more business (accounting, marketing, general business, etc).


      Keep in mind, that just because a background was declared to be one of the above does not mean squat. As to names, me, I like simple peon :) BTW, how do you like the triangle? I almost went to work for Redhat, but really was not interested in leaving Colorado.
      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Ok, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They spend their time debating UML design vs. Waterfall. Please don't talk about things you obviously have NO clue over. That sentence doesn't make a single bit of sense. (and tho' it matters not, if you care, I have a B.S. in Geophysics and an MCS (Master of Computer Science)

    4. Re:Ok, but by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that breakdown... makes sense. The Triangle is ok, but I suspect I would have enjoyed living in Boulder CO more. I started a small company here, and was looking for a good place to raise kids. I think this area is great for raising kids, which has to be it's defining trait. It's not a great place to start a company. I've been here 7 years, and still think the move was the best decision for my kids. For us parents... well the weather sucks, and I can't get use to it. I can't see anything cause there's too many trees in the way. My friends and family are all in the Bay Area. We hope to move back one day, but gotta raise the kids first.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
  22. exploding batteries by doti · · Score: 1

    High temperatures of 1 billion Kelvin (100 keV) have been reached years ago. I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable with of these on a cellphone in my pocket.
    --
    factor 966971: 966971
  23. Ah yes; Amazing is it not by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Why even now, there are companies that are trying to produce jets that cost 1/2 of the comparable jet from the big players. And even more amazing, is that companies like Spacex is producing a rocket for about 1/3 of the launch cost of something similar by Boeing AND l-mart. And now, there is a company who is claiming to produce SPACE station at a fraction of the costs of the ISS.

    Yes, when ppl and companies come along claiming to do something at a fraction of the price, you KNOW they must be fleecing. BTW, I have some hair die that I would like to sell you. It will only cost you 100.00, so it is of the same price as all the others.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  24. Prototype Images online ... by mybecq · · Score: 1

    Here are some pictures of the focus fusion as it occurs. There is even a 2-second video of some tests.

    (It would a lot funnier without this:)

  25. Cool! by Emesee · · Score: 1

    People are so optimistic and positive here! I'm so impressed! smilez for everyone!

    --
    contribute at wikademia
  26. This isn't sustainable by Azuma+Hazuki · · Score: 1

    Hydrogen-boron fusion? Boron is fairly rare; the holy grail won't come until we get pure hydrogen fusion working (and even then, if it's deuterium-tritium we'll have a tritium problem).

    --
    ~Eien no Inori wo Sasagete~ Searching for my Hatsumi...
    1. Re:This isn't sustainable by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      Boron is fairly rare

      If it's that rare, wouldn't it have been overkill to use twenty-mule teams to haul borax out of the desert?

      Without bothering to look it up, it seems like global consumption of a fusion fuel wouldn't be more than a couple of thousand tons per year. Boron compounds are a commodity that's currently consumed on the scale of a million tons per year.

    2. Re:This isn't sustainable by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Boron is only slightly more rare than copper, and is commercially available by the ton (though not in pure elemental form)

      Tritium is extremely easy to manufacture, but with a half life of ~12 years it's not something you generally store. It's easy to make as you need it though, usually by bombarding Lithium-6 or Boron-10 with neutrons.
      =Smidge=

  27. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  28. Big Science effect by 5pp000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have no idea whether there's any chance focus fusion could work. But I do believe it has probably been a terrible mistake to have put all our eggs in the tokamak basket for all these years. When you don't know how to solve a problem, it's critical to keep exploring alternative approaches, especially if they're radically different. I would love to see substantially more funding for focus fusion, electrostatic confinement fusion, sonofusion, and even good old Pons and Fleischmann style cold fusion. The total would still be small compared to tokamak funding -- and who knows, maybe one of them would work out, or maybe we would learn something that turned out to be useful in the tokamak.

    While there certainly are crackpots out there, I think we're too quick to dismiss ideas outside the mainstream, too eager to congratulate ourselves for knowing the truth already when we clearly don't know all of it. We need to cultivate more humility in the face of the mystery of the unknown.

    --
    Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
    1. Re:Big Science effect by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Diversification, as in all things, is no substitute for solid reasoning and research; it is merely a method to hedge one's bets. No one would recommend, for example, that you diversify your investment portfolio into penny stocks and junk bonds for the mere sake of diversification. Likewise, it may be counterproductive to provide research funding for avenues which show little promise. The fact that breakthroughs occasionally come from unexpected places does not negate the fact that progress comes much more often and, overall, more significantly in incremental steps. That's not to say that promising alternatives should be dismissed, but you shouldn't go throwing turtles together expecting to find the solution either, and some of the "alternative" theories are only slightly more scientifically sound (though frequently *sound* much more scientific than they are).

    2. Re:Big Science effect by mako1138 · · Score: 1

      Here's my ramble about fusion funding. The fusion research budget in the US has been steadily declining for decades, and pales in comparison to other 'energy' sectors like fission and coal. Even so, 'alternative' fusion devices have received funding, though most of them have been in the magnetic confinement arena, like stellarators, spheromaks, etc. Funding for IEC is also there, and one university fusion page I ran across even mentioned the Polywell.

      (It's true that we've made ITER DOE's number one priority, and they're taking money out of the domestic fusion budget for it. I hear this upset a lot of people. Some of this concern is political but some of it is scientific, as we don't understand enough about tokamak fusion to be sure that ITER will work; we're depending on scaling laws that will hopefully pan out.)

      Finally, nuclear research is not something that can be done easily on the small scale. Anything having to do with radiation carries an inherent risk, and requires specialized instrumentation and training. As an unaffiliated researcher, you're unlikely to get considered for large amounts of funding. I agree that we need to diversify, but the proposed experiments need to show feasibility and scientific merit, which is hard to achieve on the small scale.

  29. Re:Focus Fusion vs Polywell???? by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

    No, Focus Fusion isn't based on Polywell. They are two different competing ideas. They both claim to be able to use p-B11 as fuel.

    The idea behind Polywell is to magnetically concentrate electrons at the center of a spherical vacuum chamber, so they can attract positively charged fuel ions that will fuse at the center.

    Focus Fusion also uses electric charges to create fusion butm (IIUC) the fusion supposedly takes place in zones called plasmids - tiny unstable regions of plasma.

  30. Exactly why this wont work. by mr+squeegs · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ever since i saw the polywell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell/ 6 months ago, i have spent every waking moment researching these new approaches to fusion. Plasmas found in fusion typically display a maxwellian particle distribution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell-Boltzmann_distribution/ This basically states that there are different numbers of particles containing a different amount of energy. The fact there are so many particles moving at different energies gives rise to a phenomena called Bremstrahlung radiation (german for braking)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung_radiation/ this is when particles collide with electrons giving up energy. Bremstrahlung and synchrotron radiation are two main energy loss mechanisms in fusion power schemes. Focus fusion is maxwellian and suffers from the above. Sadly the inventor of the polywell Dr. Robert W Bussard passed away on the 06/10/07. He was dearly mourned by the fusion community. In many of his papers and in his final interview http://www.americanantigravity.com/graphics/interviews/Robert-Bussard-Interview.wma/ he stated that only non maxwellian fusion regimes can hope to achieve above break even power. Tri alpha energy recieved 40million in venture capitol for its idea. Focus fusion are rallying for support, and the polywell has finally recieved some limited investment from the navy to repeat WB 6's results of 10^9 neutrons per second. The polywell is non maxwellian fusion regime that is basically a 150kev particle accelerator utilizing a virtual cathode. It is in my opinion the only machine that will achieve beyond break even power, yet despite this it has suffered from an crippling lack of investment and interest. As we speak now WB 7 is being constucted and should have results by May next year. If all goes well in the next few months expect big things. We are about to witness another Manhattan Project !

    1. Re:Exactly why this wont work. by Teancum · · Score: 1
      While I havn't been quite as fanatical as you seem to be on the idea of Polywell/IEC fusion (I know, Polywell isn't exactly the same as IEC, but they are related concepts), but I have been following this general line of research for a number of years now as well. There certainly have been some amazing advances by Dr. Bussard, and I hope that his research team can carry on his legacy as well.

      It will be very interesting if they can get the WB 7 going. It seems as though there were two huge issues with the WB 6 that they need to worry about with the WB 7... one is comparatively easy and the other is simply having a good source of money to help out.

      1. Quality Control - I have no doubt that if/when a Polywell reactor goes into some sort of mass production situation, this is something that can be easily dealt with, but for a bunch of researchers using comparatively simple hand tools, this is something that is often difficult to achieve. Essentially process engineering, the components of the Polywell reactor have several components with low tolerances for error and a high need for consistency of each part. This is nothing compared to microprocessors or even optical storage devices, so it is certainly something in the realm of possibility, but something that Bussard wasn't ready for when he first started out. This is also one area where a modest amount of financial investment can be useful, if you get the proper machining tools necessary to create the parts in the first place. It is also a good example of how you need to draw from outside of academia if you want a project like this to succeed, as any good engineer who has worked in a manufacturing plant would be able to offer some good suggestions on how to improve over what they have done so far.
      2. Raw Power - That is energy writ large, or simple mega-watt-hours of power from the local electrical company. Bussard used a capacitor bank to power his devices, and then ran those devices for a short period of time. But it takes time to charge up those capacitors, and more raw power can make that happen faster, as can a larger capacitor bank. It does get tricky when you are in the megafarad realm of capacitance, but nothing that a good electrical engineer can't solve if they have money to fix the problem. This is one problem that deep pockets can solve easier than somebody on a shoestring budget.


      I think Bussard had the costs down pretty well for this domain as well, and it is on the order of magnitude that you can legitimately say that it can be accomplished, but hasn't yet because this is a tough science/engineering problem that is more than something somebody in a garage hasn't been able to do yet.

      I don't know where this "$2 million" for a proof of concept comes from, but that is on the order of magnitude that can be found at an ordinary land-grant university. If a fusion concept could be developed for that amount of money, it would likely have already been done. For that reason, I am highly skeptical of anybody claiming an easy road to fusion unless they are building on research done by people like Feynmann, Farnsworth, and Bussard in particular. Bussard was very much indebted to those who came before him, and he certainly understood the physics of the Farnsworth IEC devices completely.... something that I don't find even from most Physics PhDs who study fusion research... for example.

      If there is another approach to fusion besides the Tokamak, I certainly am interested in the idea. I certainly think the Tokamak is a dead-end research line, where the billions spent in that direction could have been much more productively spent elsewhere. Certainly some good research has come from it, but it has also chewed up far too many promising grad students who had the brains to study other concepts and make some genuine breakthroughs as well.
  31. Bussard by BlackGriffen · · Score: 1

    I had made the mistaken assumption that /. was repeating itself and that Lerner was just Bussard's replacement at the head of his project.

    Lerner doesn't go into as great a detail about the DOE denying funding as Bussard, but he does definitely accuse them of only being interested in few huge projects.

    So, basically, the same criticism applies to Bussard and Lerner with the same punch-line: I really hope they're right, but I really doubt it.

  32. The tritium economy by Latent+Heat · · Score: 2, Interesting
    One of the hangups I have heard about D-T fusion (OK, OK, I heard it from those wacky The Oil Drum dudes) is that to set up a working DT fusion economy, you have to take into account the doubling time of the amount of tritium that you breed, and there is concern that the doubling time is such that we will run out of oil before the industry has enough time for one D-T reactor to breed enough T for the next pair of D-T reactors which in turn "beget" the next pair of pairs of D-T reactors.

    Is this a legitimate concern, or if someone has a working D-T reactor, one can breed enough tritium soon enough that one can launch a D-T reactor economy?

    The other quesiton I have about D-T is since this produces lots of fast neutrons, will an industrial-scale reactor be an even bigger plutonium-breeding proliferation concern than fission power? Or are the neutrons the wrong energy for making plutonium? Or will the D-T reactors be so high tech that "other countries" wanting one will require so much support and supervision that breeding Pu on the QT is not a concern?

    1. Re:The tritium economy by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      I love TOD and read it a lot, but I don't see how that can be a concern. I don't know about the doubling time for tritium but we don't use oil to make electricity in Europe or the US, so how long it takes to ramp up fusion is more or less unrelated to oil supplies.

    2. Re:The tritium economy by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      We won't have commercial fusion reactors in time for Oil if current trends continue. In a very best case scenario we have one single prototype reactor i 30 years, more likely we are talking 50 years before you see the first commercialised designs, if at all. Oil is expected to peak 2030. Basically, Fusion won't be replacing Oil any time soon.

      When it comes to tritium, you could generate the small startup amount using a fission reactor. Once you have a small quantity of tritium the reactor could breed the rest on its own. It is unlikely we will get rid of all fission reactors before a large fleet of fusion reactors are deployed, so I doubt that will be much of a concern.

      As for plutonium production, you could theoretically use a fusion reactor to breed plutonium, but why bother? If you have enough Uranium to breed the Plutonium from, then it would be many times easier to just build a traditional fission reactor. The US pulled it off in the 40ies, pretty much any industrialised country could do it. The real obstacle to countries getting nuclear weapons is international politics and a lack of will, not technology. It wouldn't be possible to perform the necessary modifications on a fusion reactor without it being detected by inspectors, so you wouldn't win much in terms of keeping the program secret. So well, I guess you could theoretically use a fusion reactor to make bombs, but I really don't see why anybody would do it that way.

    3. Re:The tritium economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The concern about the 'doubling time' of tritium in a fusion reactor is a bit overblown. Some people have looked at the marginal breeding ratio of tritium in the blanket (you might get 1.1 tritium nuclei out for each one fused, due to some neutron multiplication in the lithium and blanket structure), but this doesn't mean that the tritium is only multiplied by 1.1 per year, or over the life of the reactor! If the tritium inventory in the blanket is sufficiently small the doubling time can be quite short, since the tritium is cycled through quite rapidly.

  33. please edit mr moderator by mr+squeegs · · Score: 1

    all my links have (foolishly) / at the end. Please remove them so they can be viewed. thanks.

  34. Focus Fusion == crack the whip by CustomDesigned · · Score: 1

    A layman's explanation is that focus fusion creates a long strand of plasma via initial energy input. Then, the strand is magnetically "cracked" like a whip, initiating a collapse from one end. A wave of magnetically confined plasma moves down the strand, gaining energy and getting smaller - just like a whip. If you do it right, the confined area reaches fusion temperature and density before it gets to the end of the strand - just like a whip goes supersonic before the snap reaches the end - the "crack" you hear is the sonic boom from the tip of the whip. The elegant part of this scheme is that electrons go sideways as beta radiation (losing some energy in xray radiation), and the newly created alpha particles all go in the same direction as the "snap" (since they were all moving that direction with the plasma pocket. So a good deal of the fusion energy is converted directly to electricity by providing nice targets for the electrons at the side and alpha particles at one end. The problems are getting the plasma whip to "crack" consistently, and not losing too much energy to the xrays.

  35. URL correction by sterlingda · · Score: 1

    This story makes reference to a slashdot story about Focus Fusion I submitted a couple of years ago.

    Unfortunately, the website (I'm no longer associated with it) referenced in that article is not in good shape, and that link is now dead.

    The identical story, which was composed by myself, was also published at PESN.

    Whoever has the necessary access might want to update the link at Slashdot.

    I might point out that the Slashdot community gernally belittled to story. I take some satisfaction in seeing that two years later the subject is featured at Google Tech Talks.

    Focus Fusion is the first technology we reviewed when I founded the New Energy Congress a couple of years ago. It has remained in our top 100 since that time. See our feature page: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Focus_Fusion (second return for a Google search on 'focus fusion'.)

    --
    Tomorrow's news yesterday -- the bleeding, visionary edge.
  36. A lot more practical problems than this guy lets o by Werthless5 · · Score: 1

    First of all, the B11 + p reaction is no more free of nuclear waste than a D+T reaction (Deuterium+Tritium conventional fusion). However, it is a fact that B11 is much more plentiful than Tritium (or Deuterium for that matter, whereas single protons are everywhere; that's everyday hydrogen). Anyone who has taken an introductory Nuclear Physics course should be able to explain why B11 + p -> 3H4 is probably not a fusion reaction that is viable for energy production. In fact, anyone can make the theoretical calculation. H2 + H3 -> He4 + n Using the masses of the reactants and subtracting the masses of the products gives us a mass difference of about u=0.01888299 (yes, the masses have been measured to that accuracy, better than that accuracy in fact) Converting to electron-volts, Q = 17.590 MeV is the energy released by this reaction. This is carried off as kinetic energy for the He4 and the neutron (wikipedia source says 17.6MeV released). The neutron carries away the largest chunk of this energy. B11 + p -> 3He4 Do the math again and you get a mass difference of about u=0.00877247 Converting to electron-volts, Q = 8.1716 MeV is the energy released by this reaction (with the wikipedia source saying Q = 8.7MeV, source unknown). Again, this energy is kinetic energy carried by each helium nucleus, although it's split evenly between the three nuclei. At 100% efficiency, a focus fusion reactor would generate less than half of the energy provided by conventional fusion. The efforts being made for conventional fusion are there because it's probably the best chance we have for long-term fusion energy. Tritium production is currently low, allowing the author to make the claim that we would quickly run out of fuel. He obviously hasn't done his homework (or is intentionally misleading). Once fusion becomes a reliable and economically viable source of power, harvesting tritium from the surface of the moon (where it is relatively abundant) will be a streamlined process. Other advances in technology will allow unprecedented production of tritium. It's the same case that we've seen for oil a hundred times before; people continue claiming that we'll run out of supplies in the immediate future, and then a few technological breakthroughs bring greater access to oil reserves than ever before. Obviously this trend can't last forever, but by the time our local resources of tritium are depleted (the moon and whatever we produce on the earth) we'll be able to harvest it from other celestial bodies. And other users have pointed out the author's dubious background. It would be wise to ask why he never completed a PhD, and perhaps the wisest are asking whether he even passed his qualification exams (exams covering undergraduate Thermodynamics, Classical Mechanics, Quantum Mechanics, and Electromagnetism to determine eligibility for a PhD program, taken sometime during the first or second year of graduate school). His lack of a PhD certainly does not mean he's stupid or untrustworthy, but I still can't take his research seriously. The best way to obtain research funding is by participating in a PhD program and then picking up a research position at any university. Everyone knows that, so why doesn't he? Asking for public donations is highly suspect. I don't trust him for this reason alone. The DoE is usually very willing to fund alternative energy research, even stuff that looks like it has little chance for success. He must have asked them for funding, and either received it and is trying to scam people into donations or they shot him down, implying that his research has even less credibility than I thought.

  37. Gah, sorry about the block of text by Werthless5 · · Score: 1

    Oops, didn't hit preview that last time and then slashdot hit me with the 'ole "Wait a few minutes before replying" speech. Here it is again.

    First of all, the B11 + p reaction is no more free of nuclear waste than a D+T reaction (Deuterium+Tritium conventional fusion). However, it is a fact that B11 is much more plentiful than Tritium (or Deuterium for that matter, whereas single protons are everywhere; that's everyday hydrogen).

    Anyone who has taken an introductory Nuclear Physics course should be able to explain why B11 + p -> 3H4 is probably not a fusion reaction that is viable for energy production. In fact, anyone can make the theoretical calculation.

    H2 + H3 -> He4 + n
    Using the masses of the reactants and subtracting the masses of the products gives us a mass difference of about u=0.01888299 (yes, the masses have been measured to that accuracy, better than that accuracy in fact) Converting to electron-volts, Q = 17.590 MeV is the energy released by this reaction. This is carried off as kinetic energy for the He4 and the neutron (wikipedia source says 17.6MeV released). The neutron carries away the largest chunk of this energy.

    B11 + p -> 3He4
    Do the math again and you get a mass difference of about u=0.00877247 Converting to electron-volts, Q = 8.1716 MeV is the energy released by this reaction (with the wikipedia source saying Q = 8.7MeV, source unknown). Again, this energy is kinetic energy carried by each helium nucleus, although it's split evenly between the three nuclei.

    At 100% efficiency, a focus fusion reactor would generate less than half of the energy provided by conventional fusion. The efforts being made for conventional fusion are there because it's probably the best chance we have for long-term fusion energy.

    Tritium production is currently low, allowing the author to make the claim that we would quickly run out of fuel. He obviously hasn't done his homework (or is intentionally misleading). Once fusion becomes a reliable and economically viable source of power, harvesting tritium from the surface of the moon (where it is relatively abundant) will be a streamlined process. Other advances in technology will allow unprecedented production of tritium. It's the same case that we've seen for oil a hundred times before; people continue claiming that we'll run out of supplies in the immediate future, and then a few technological breakthroughs bring greater access to oil reserves than ever before. Obviously this trend can't last forever, but by the time our local resources of tritium are depleted (the moon and whatever we produce on the earth) we'll be able to harvest it from other celestial bodies.

    Other users have pointed out the author's dubious background. It would be wise to ask why he never completed a PhD, and perhaps the wisest are asking whether he even passed his qualification exams (exams covering undergraduate Thermodynamics, Classical Mechanics, Quantum Mechanics, and Electromagnetism to determine eligibility for a PhD program, taken sometime during the first or second year of graduate school).

    His lack of a PhD certainly does not mean he's stupid or untrustworthy, but I still can't take his research seriously. The best way to obtain research funding is by participating in a PhD program and then picking up a research position at any university. Everyone knows that, so why doesn't he? Asking for public donations is highly suspect. I don't trust him for this reason alone. The DoE is usually very willing to fund alternative energy research, even stuff that looks like it has little chance for success. He must have asked them for funding, and either received it and is trying to scam people into donations or they shot him down, implying that his research has even less credibility than I thought.

  38. on lack of funding by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 1

    In both Bussard and Lerner's talks, it does come off as a bit crack-potish when they complain about lack of funding. However, in both cases, if I remember correctly, they had military funding and that funding was cut due to the Iraq war. That isn't a conspiracy, it's consistent with my understanding of the current funding climate. The military just doesn't have the money to fight a war and do basic research on things that aren't going to be in immediately deployable products.

    I'm not sure if their claims that the DOE is only willing to fund tokomak research is true, but it does seem at least plausible, and both Bussard and Lerner are saying the same thing, which lends at least a little bit of credibility to the accusation.

  39. Why are you talking sh17 ? by mr+squeegs · · Score: 1

    "First of all, the B11 + p reaction is no more free of nuclear waste than a D+T reaction (Deuterium+Tritium conventional fusion)." How is 3 positively charged alpha particles considered nuclear waste ? They have charge unlike neutrons, so you can deaccelerate them with a positive electric field and generate direct power and no nasties "Anyone who has taken an introductory Nuclear Physics course should be able to explain why B11 + p -> 3H4 is probably not a fusion reaction that is viable for energy production." if you look at its fusion cross section p+B11 has a peak @ around 125kev. This is what the polywell is aiming for. Yes the gain is not as much as say D-T but thats a price im willing to pay for no neutrons. When it comes to a reactor design utility companies would consider viable in $ per kw you dont want neutrons. How is a reactor going to be economically viable if you have to replace the core every couple of months ? "His lack of a PhD certainly does not mean he's stupid or untrustworthy, but I still can't take his research seriously. The best way to obtain research funding is by participating in a PhD program and then picking up a research position at any university. Everyone knows that, so why doesn't he?" I don't have a PhD. I wish i could find a university in this hemisphere that is interested in aneutronic non maxwellian inertial electrostatic confinement with virtual cathodes but im afraid it does'nt exist. Big science and academia have let us all down in this field over the past ten years. So much so with the narrowmindedness of ITER i would even postulate a conspiracy of some sort. Brave individuals at companies like focus fusion, tri alpha inc and EMC2 are going to start a revolution. With a Phd or not.

    1. Re:Why are you talking sh17 ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is 3 positively charged alpha particles considered nuclear waste ?

      The problem is the side reactions which, while they produce many fewer neutrons, still produce quite a few, enough to activate the reactor structure. So the reactor has to be disposed of at the end of its life as nuclear waste, albeit considerably less active (some orders of magnitude).

      The neutrons (and energetic gammas) produced by side reactions also mean that 'aneutronic' fusion will need just as much shielding as ordinary fusion, to prevent injury to nearby people.

  40. 100 keV is 1 billion Kelvin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1 eV equals 11604 K, see good old Wikipedia.

  41. One minute in the forums... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..was enough to convince me this guy is a nutter. When a forum is filled with people congratulating themselves on how 'enlightened' they are because they don't believe in a theory which pretty much everyone who does this stuff for a living believes in, you are not looking at science, you are looking at crackpottery. This belongs up there with Intelligent Design and Flat Earthers.

    If you require a revolution in physics for your engine to work -- you're selling snake oil. Rotsa Ruck to anyone dumb enough to invest in this yobbo.

  42. Should have come to Colorado. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    I have 2 small kids here. Good schools (1 will go to Cherry Creek, my other is in douglas county; both good districts). Good area. Very family friendly. One good place is Ft. Collins (great town, family friendly, college town, but with bad police, though most college towns have that issue).

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  43. Nothing too fishy here by HW_Hack · · Score: 1

    I watched the video and skimmed thru many of the posts. I'm a life long science junkie having 2 degrees with science majors - so while far from an expert I could somewhat follow his presentation. I am not a fusion fanatic.

    My feeling is that anyone working on a "holy grail" technology like fusion is by necessity a bit quirky - driven - and true believer in the face of all the unknows / hype ( pro & con) around your research focus area. All of the aforementioned qualities are needed as long as they are balanced against good science --- doing the experiments - following the results - and most critically not "cooking the results".

    The fact that he may or may not be rehashing older techonology / science is no issue for me. Something found not feasible or problematic 40yrs ago can become feasible with a new approach - new technology.

    Lastly the approach of using the "inherent instability" of plasma to your advantage (rather than fighting to control it) also seems like a feasible and practical idea. And I can see where this would confuse people (bean counters) and seem counter intuitive.

    From my limited knowledge I believe pulsed fusion will be the first step - perhaps in 50yrs we could have semi-stable continous ignition (just a longer pulse). I say give him 2 million and have an independant scientist and bean-counter monitor the monthly results.

    --
    Its not the years, its the mileage .....
  44. amateur hour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This process has not been thought fully through: extraction of electrical current from an ion beam is difficult at best. I have some experience with laboratory experiments designed to prove the concept of a magnetically collimated ion beam produced from fission fragments (the experiments were all based on beams of alpha particles) and the conversion of the ion beam striking a target plate to electrical energy has not yet been acheived on a truly meaningful scale. We were only going for 1 MV of potential at microampere currents (less than 100 W of energy output) and that required a target assembly approximately 3 ft long to stand off and step down the high voltage. That was also under ultra-high vacuum, meaning the distance to standoff high voltage is smaller compared to whatever (much) higher pressure this machine would be working at. Based on the scaling up of this project from tens of mW to tens of W, the scale of this issue is at least proportional to the increase in beam energy, and this focus fusion idea would increase the beam energy by several orders of magnitude.

    This is what I know most about, but there are so many other things that raise red flags about this guy. I hope he is not funded so that money can go to someone researching verifiable work in this field (and I am in the ion/solid interaction field, not fusion).

    As a side note, I have not noticed any error bars and many of his graphs' axes lack units.

  45. Interesting, but a contradiction? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
    In his talk, he mentioned that the angular momentum of the final vortex was the result of the Earth's magnetic field, and that injecting a 'weak' field would increase efficiency, up to a point.


    Later in the talk, he mentioned that x-ray cooling could be limited by raising the magnetic field to around 6 gigagauss. Isn't that a contradiction?

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  46. focus fusion presentation by elerner · · Score: 1

    If people are going to comment on a video, it is a good idea to watch it first. Anyone who did watch my presentation would have learned four things that many commenters here do not seem to know:

    1) Focus fusion is not the same as Dr. Bussard's approach. I contrast the three main approaches to hydrogen-boron fusion--focus fusion is one, the IEC that the late Dr. Bussard worked on is another.

    2) There is a quantum effect of very high magnetic fields that reduces the efficiency of heating of electrons by ions but not of ions by electrons. This leads to much lower electron temperatures than ion temperatures, and thus much lower x-ray emission. It does not rely on non-equilibrium plasma.

    3) This effect is based on well-established physics and has received experimental confirmation in z-pinches.

    4) The reason why the next focus fusion experiment could cost as little as $2 million is because all work with the plasma focus device is very economical. The device can be built for only a few hundred thousand dollars. That is why there are DPF research teams in many developing countries that could not afford a bigger fusion machine.

    Eric Lerner