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Italian Judge Tells HP To Refund Pre-Installed XP

Posted by kdawson on from the fair's-fair dept.

Paolo DF writes "An Italian user asked for a refund after buying a Compaq computer that came with Windows XP and Works 8 pre-installed. HP tried to avoid the EULA agreement which states, approximately: '[I]f the end user is not willing to abide by this EULA... he shall immediately contact the producer to get info for giving back the product and obtaining refunds.' The court ruled in favor of the user (Google translation from the Italian), who received back €90 for XP and €50 for Works. Here is the ruling (PDF, Italian)."

24 of 225 comments (clear)

  1. Progress. by nozzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is progress, the more this happens the better the choice for the consumer. It shows the vendors that users prefer OS choices a la Dell.
    True, this is but 1 user but every little helps as we say in the UK.

    1. Re:Progress. by chromatic · · Score: 4, Funny

      The Via Dolorosa's pretty narrow. Also, it's in Jerusalem.

      --
      how to invest, a novice's guide
    2. Re:Progress. by AusIV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, this is but 1 user but every little helps as we say in the UK.

      It's not just one user. It's a legal precedent. Now Italian Linux users may be more likely to request refunds for Windows licenses that come with computers, and since there's a legal precedent, the vendors may be more likely to comply.

    3. Re:Progress. by houghi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And do not forget people and companies who still have already bought XP legaly previously.

      This is good news for the consumer. The ad news is that this will not harm Microsoft in the least, even if EVERYBODY would do this. It will be the computercompanies who will need to caugh this one up.

      They will not be able to get their money back from Microsoft. So either they will start loosing money (because they do not make that much on a PC) in Italy, or stop selling PC's altogether.

      Most likely the latter will be happening with other companies, like Dell. The result will be that larger companies will not be selling computers in Italy. Tghis will result in lower quality and people who want Windows paying more. So if the consumer wants the same product, he will end up paying more then he does now.

      The solution? Have this implemented in the rest of Europe. The European market is big enough to force a change and balsy enough to force Microsoft to pay back the companies in full.

      After that South America will follow and then Asia. Africa, Austriala, Canada and Mexico will follow after that. The USofA? They will follow the moment the consumers have some rights, except the right to shut up and spend money. Sorry.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    4. Re:Progress. by davester666 · · Score: 3, Informative

      > I thought the EULA just meant that you could return the computer

      I believe this is referring to the Windows EULA, which only discusses your non-rights w.r.t. Windows, and doesn't discuss the hardware at all. I don't have it handy, but when I read it [and when it's come up before in slashdot, for the odd person getting a refund in the US], the EULA explicitly states [at least for the US] that you have the right to return the software [specifically] for a full refund if you don't agree with the EULA.

      And I don't think MS wants to revise the EULA to force the return of the computer as well, because then it explicitly goes back to that monopoly situation, where for the large vendors, you must then buy Windows to get a computer. Now, it's just a big hassle for both the consumer and the vendor to buy a computer without Windows [in general], but it's not legally forced by Microsoft [except perhaps in some non-pubic legal agreements between the vendors and Microsoft, where they pay for each computer shipped instead of each Windows license shipped - Windows licenses refunded].

      --
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    5. Re:Progress. by lbbros · · Score: 4, Informative

      Although it is a legal precedent, it must be noted that Italian law is not based on precedents, like UK or USA. Even the rulings of our "Corte di Cassazione" (akin to the Supreme Court) are not completely binding (i.e. they show the "correct" interpretation of the law but judges can decide differently).

      --
      A CC-licensed illustrated horror novel
    6. Re:Progress. by the_womble · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So by your logic because there is a Eula, as opposed to nothing, MS is on the hook for your whims? Incredible.
      Yes, if MS requires a EULA, you have the right to reject it.

      What if I wanted Windows but decided to use another OS because I did not wish to agree with a clause in the EULA? I already own the hardware and have every right to keep it, so I should be able reject the EULA and get a refund on Windows.

      According to you, MS should be able to impose whatever arbitrary conditions they want on the use of a produce AFTER getting paid for it, and consumers should have no alternatives other than not using the product (which they have paid for) or agreeing to MS's conditions. Now that really is incredible.

      As for paying for the war etc., are you suggesting that no-one should raise any minor issue until all major political issues are sorted out? Then you can NEVER raise any consumer rights issue because there will always be something more important.

      You do realise that complaining about MS does not preclude caring about other issues. I am opposed to the US invasion of Iraq AND corruption AND anti-competitive product bundling.

      Yes, I can actually have opinions on three issues at once. If your brain explodes if you have to think about more than one issue a month, that is your problem.

  2. MS Tax by indy_Muad'Dib · · Score: 5, Insightful

    90 euros for XP, $130

    50 Euros for Works, $70.

    so why do we only get back around $10 for a XP turn in?

    1. Re:MS Tax by JoshJ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because Microsoft owns a significant chunk of the American political machine, but owns very little of the European one.

      --
      Care about privacy? Read this!
    2. Re:MS Tax by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Funny

      90 euros for XP, $130
      50 Euros for Works, $70.

      Telling Microsoft to take their software to the dumpster: Priceless.
    3. Re:MS Tax by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Funny

      90 euros for XP, $130

      50 Euros for Works, $70. Canadian dollars, right? So in American that guy just got back $10k, right? Payday!
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    4. Re:MS Tax by Sterling+Christensen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's probably because US retailers think it should count that they bundled Windows with sponsored crapware bringing net cost down to $10, while the Italian Judge (quite reasonably) thought it shouldn't.

    5. Re:MS Tax by BrentH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh boy. Please check out European news before you spew such nonsense. European co's are constantly under fire for anti-competitive practices. A lot more often than non-EU ones.

  3. Any other attempts at this? by cygtoad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome? This has far reaching implications beyond HP. Any computer manufacturer would be affected, but the EULA seems to point heavily to the refunding procedure, not of Microsoft, but of the reseller. It should be interesting to see how HP responds.

    1. Re:Any other attempts at this? by falconwolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome?

      It may be a hassle but people in the US have been getting refunds for years. Here's an article, "Windows license opens door for Linux refund" on how people in the late '90s were requesting refunds. It mentions /. and how /.ers got involved.

      Falcon
      --
      Should there be a Law?
  4. Italian Day at /.? by moosesocks · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well, kudos to Italy for making the front page of slashdot 3 times in one day, finally constructing a mechanical device that didn't break down immediately, and ending up with a score in the green.

    Ciao!
    --
    -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  5. Plenty of other (successful) attempts at this... by Aehgts · · Score: 5, Informative

    As a quick google search's first few results show: this has been done in the US and Australia in the past with at least Dell and Toshiba and has been followed on slashdot before.

    --
    "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein
  6. He got costs, too by belmolis · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not only was the buyer reimbursed 140 euros for the unwanted software, he was awarded 2,300 euros in legal costs. Refusing to abide by the EULA could get expensive for vendors.

    1. Re:He got costs, too by Gertlex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh no, a bit of legal costs!

      What I love about this case is that the reimbursement was completely in line with damages. None of that hundreds of thousands of dollars (euros) crap.

  7. Re:Work still has to be done by udippel · · Score: 5, Funny

    It went off-line long ago! It was www.wondowsrefund.net

    No winder it went off-line !

  8. Re:Approximately? by JohnBailey · · Score: 3, Informative

    After a few seconds to get to the Google page, the EULA states exactly in the first paragraph.. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/sp2/proeula.mspx

    "IMPORTANT--READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft Corporation or one of its affiliates ("Microsoft") for the Microsoft software that accompanies this EULA, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation, and Internet-based services ("Software"). An amendment or addendum to this EULA may accompany the Software. YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE."

    Rejecting the contract at this stage means you have no need to read the rest of the EULA,and states explicitly that you are entitled to a refund, who you are entitled to a refund from, and as the court cases have shown, the refund is in fact applicable. So basically, if they don't give a refund, you are entitled to take them to court and enter a case where you as the end user will win.

    --
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
  9. Contract of adhesion by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Informative

    It is looking more and more that the court systems of the world are looking to EULA click-through "agreements" as contracts of adhesion.

  10. some highlights from the original news source by mennucc1 · · Score: 3, Informative

    the Google translation is not very readable; when I proposed this submission, I did summarize as follows:
    HP defended , claiming the terms of their contract with Microsoft; the judge ruled that the end user request may not be dismissed based on a contract between HP and Microsoft, since this latter is unknown to the end user. The end user, a member of ADUC (a consumer organization) was given 90euro for Windows and 50euro for Works; this is just a small symbolical amount, but it is a huge signal to HP and all other major vendor; in defending, HP claimed that the license and contract to Microsoft is unilaterally written by Microsoft; the judge ruled that nonetheless, HP is to be held accountable by the EULA; the ruling seem to suggest that it may be time for vendors to address this situation.

  11. Re:Now, if I only could get a refound for McOS by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Informative

    I run Linux on my Mac. Should this be posible or must I pay the Apple tax?

    Why don't you check the EULA that came with your copy of OSX. Does it say that you can return it for a refund?