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Chinese Sub Pops Up Amid US Navy Exercise
One NATO figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik." American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast USS Kitty Hawk. By the time it surfaced, the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine had sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier. The incident caused consternation in the US Navy, which had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication.
More like a YEAR!
Though an older technology, diesel-electric submarines can actually be quieter than nuclear submarines. A nuclear reactor has constant motion. There are usually pumps, valves, turbines, all sorts of things that are moving. The US submarine fleet was designed from the beginning to be as quiet as possible, but there's still some noise. It's not practical to shut down and turn on the reactor, so there's always SOME noise being produced.
A diesel electric submarine, on the other hand, only makes noise when the diesel is on. Running on batteries, in absolute quiet mode, a modern diesel-electric can be a hole in the water.
Combine this technology with good intel, and you could conceivably station a submarine dragnet in the path of a carrier group a day in advance and sit on the bottom absolutely quiet. When your target approaches, pump some ballast out (at the risk of making noise) and begin an ascent. The dive planes can convert some of that bouyancy into forward motion, and you could fine tune your course and potentially be within torpedo range before being detected.
The defense against this is to use active sonar. This is anathema to modern sub doctrine, so surface ships might do it, but it's akin to shining a flashlight in a dark room, it will let everyone else know where you are too.
There are russian diesel-electric subs being tested with part-time reactors for extending the underwater life for minimal noise footprint. It will be interesting to see how these develop.
The future of submarine warfare might end up being loud and fast. Google 'supercavitating torpedo' or 'schkval torpedo' to see more. Teaser: Underwater missiles that travel hundreds of miles per hour. Kablooey!
diesel-Electric subs noisy? what are you smoking? and do you share it with US submariner's.
The Standard Diesel-electric is quieter than Nuclear Subs. Do you know why? because Electric motors are very quiet. While both types of subs use electric drive motors the nuclear reactors also turn steam turbines which make noise all the time. While quieter than a diesel engine by several orders of magnitude it is louder than a pure electric motor running on batteries.
Nuclear Power has several other advantages, including no need for consumable fuel, or exhausting harmful gases. A nuclear sub can also stay down on the bottom for the entire duration of it's mission, while diesel subs have to come up high enough to run the diesel motors to recharge the battery packs.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Also seen in 2006 posts:
http://www.sinodaily.com/reports/Chinese_Sub_Approached_US_Aircraft_Carrier_Undetected_999.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/14/world/main2179694.shtml
http://madhousethought.blogspot.com/2006/11/chinese-submarine-stalked-uss-kitty.html
RudeDude
Perl/Linux/PHP hacker
Mwuh? Blue-green laser? For communications, but for detection?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.global-defence.com%2F2000%2Fpages%2Fantisub.html&ei=dQQ5R9ONCZqmpwSDpri5DA&usg=AFQjCNFurOKcHV-O93WzeGxSR3G52nZNHA&sig2=nQgPQgY1Z_CHW9fPYsT5_A
I'm not up to current events with subs, but check these out:
http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2007/05/co-of-uss-helena-relieved-for-cause.html
http://makeyourdepth.blogspot.com/
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_33/virginia_2.html
As long as a sub can hide and wait for a CVBG to cross within, say, 5 NM to any side, a hidden sub can vertical launch or float into a vertical launch one or more missiles, mines, decoys or other devices as a ruse or means to disperse the fleet and weaken the shield/umbrella.
Sure, they'll face retaliation, but for any rogue/stateless assailants wanting to damage or merely startle a CVBG (which may or may not end up in the press), this might be something we see more of -- by state-funded, stateless actors.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
The decline of the US Navy is related to the lack of any nation that can go toe-to-toe with the US in a blue-water fight. Which is a Good Thing: engagements like Leyte Gulf ain't cheap. If the US has deterred opposing Navies from even showing up, then the job has been done.
The Soviet Navy has, happily, rusted away at the pier for the most part.
The Chinese Navy, while up-and-coming, hasn't really got the blue-water muscle. For comparison, the US SSN-688 (Los Angeles class) is over twice as long and has ~three times the displacement.
Electric motors are indeed quiet. No mention on Wikipedia of any bottoming capability, an even more scary possiblity.
Interestingly, the Wikipedia page notes that this incident occured in October 2006 "in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan", at a range of 5 nautical miles (less than half the distance to the horizon) off Okinawa. One wonders if the Kittyhawk was conducting flight ops (the tone of the article would seem to indicate no).
If you've been on one of her escorts and had to be plane guard for an aircraft carrier, you know her for a fickle wench out chasing a breeze. If the submarine commander wasn't really comfortable with his knowledge of the sea bottom, that surfacing could have had everything to do with fearing for his life. Trading paint with 84,000 tons of US diplomacy underway going full-tilt-boogy is not going to be a career enhancer.
Not that this wipes the egg off the face of whoever was in charge of the escort screen, if the Chinese presence was indeed the surprise that the article touts it as.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I would caution everyone to note first of all that the FA is from the Daily Mail and so most of the facts contained therein are subject to question.
As some have noted this incident took place approximately a year ago and in fact it's not even the first time that the Chinese have stalked the Kitty Hawk - albeit from a greater distance that time.
Essentially what the Mail have done here is to raise an issue that ticks all their usual buttons.
Consequently, on behalf of all Brits, I apologise for the existence of the Daily Mail - plainly we should do more to end it. On the other hand, however you have given the world Fox News and Ann Coulter - although they do hold a certain amusement value.
As an exercise use google news to see how many other 'articles' have now sprung up which in places basically copy the DM article word for word.. :)
"for fear that some Luke Skywalker wannabe would fly my transport into a mountain."
Sadly this actually did happen. Pilot and copilot were on the voice recorder giggling about how someone actually paid them to have so much fun as they were flying low and pretending to be ace pilots. Too bad they didn't fly their flight plan. After hitting a mountain and killing almost everyone on board (an Air Force crew), the fact that they were nowhere where they said they would be doomed the survivors as no rescuers came before they died of exposure and their injuries.
Blackwater sucks. Hard. They kill our own military with their recklessness. Morons.
USS Hartford grounding (I was onboard for that one)
It's hard to describe, but the attitudes changed as the old-timers who were on the ship when I was the new guy left. People lost pride in their jobs. Basic DC (damage control) skills evaporated. For all those reading this where were/are on a submarine: can you find all the EAB manifolds between shaft alley and the watertight door blindfolded? Did you every try?
It is a requirement that a submariner earn his warfare pin within one year. If he couldn't do it, then he was sent to the surface fleet. Now people routinely go past the 1 year mark and it is almost unheard of for a person to not qualify, no matter now little they know. If another major submarine fire happens underway, I really expect the ship to be lost because no one took that training seriously.
The worst part is that for all the bad things that happened on our ship, many of the other ships were even worse.
What the hell does all this mean? Could someone translate in proper English for us non-native-English-speaking /.ers?
1) Aircraft carriers may change directions (getting lined up with the wind) in ways that are not predictable to the captain of a Chinese submarine.
2) It would be really bad to be hit by a carrier, they are very large.
3) But the vessels that are supposed to be guarding the carrier should have detected the "enemy" sub.
It seems to be in simple English to me...but let me try to explain.
"If you've been on one of her escorts and had to be plane guard for an aircraft carrier, you know her for a fickle wench out chasing a breeze." Sea breezes constantly change direction. A carrier will try to steam into the wind whenever launching or landing aircraft. As a result the carrier changes directions quite frequently. This forces the surrounding escorts to change direction. I may be wrong but it is my understanding is that passive detection methods are hindered during these changes of direction.
"Trading paint with 84,000 tons of US diplomacy underway going full-tilt-boogy is not going to be a career enhancer." Being in command of a submarine when it gets run over by a U.S carrier running at top speed will not make you a top candidate for the next Admiral slot that opens up.
"Not that this wipes the egg off the face of whoever was in charge of the escort screen [...]" The escorts screwed up bu not properly anticipating the carrier's movements. The escorts should have changed their direction in a way that would have minimized any reduction in the effectiveness of the task forces passive sonars.
SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0
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You're absolutely right: flying a plane is easy. But military pilots don't get paid to fly planes. We get paid to know tactics, deploy weapons, and complete a mission.
Oh, give me a fucking break! Do you have ANY knowledge whatsoever about that of which you speak?
Stalin bears zero credit for "holding Russia together" during the Great Patriotic War (WW2). Stalin's paranoid purges of the Red Army prior to the war weakened his forces to the point that Finland was able to hold them off. Stalin's attempts at military "leadership" (pushing offenses against the advice of Zhukov) all ended in disaster. Stalin's sole saving grace over Hitler is that he eventually realized this and allowed his military men to conduct the war.
Why don't you go to Russia today and try to sell people on the idea that Stalin was the savior of Russia. Let me know how that works out for you.
If he was so psychotic, why was he helped by the USA then?Because he was slightly better then Hitler and the USA couldn't allow the Soviet Union to be conquered by Germany?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
'Fortunately' for the idiot flying into the ski lift cables, he was cleared of charges by the US military court. Guess not only Blackwater protects their own incompetents.
The EU was pretty pissed off about this:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:51999IP0272:EN:HTML