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Yahoo Settles With Imprisoned Chinese Journalists
Terms of the deal are secret, but Yahoo has reached settlements with two Chinese journalists who were arrested based on information the company provided to the ruling Communist government. "[...] a source at Yahoo said the company has been 'working with the families, and we're working with them to provide them with financial, humanitarian and legal assistance.' Yahoo has also agreed to establish a global human rights fund to provide 'humanitarian relief' to support dissidents and their families. The source said that details still have to be worked out."
Yahoo has learned well from China. Keep it secret.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
For the good of the people.
What I would like to know: have they reached a "deal" to stop cooperating with totalitarian censors in suppressing freedom of speech and political opposition?
Read Pynchon.
Has one of your loved ones been shot for treason? Disappeared for thoughtcrime? Or just had one of those spur-of-the-moment fits of altruism and volunteered to donate any and all needed organs to help a wealthy Party official?
Well, Yahoo! is here to help! Yahoo! has set up a humanitarian relief fund that to fund the families' share of the burden. For every family member shot, Yahoo! will supply your family with two cents to cover the cost of the bullet, and for every organ harvested, Yahoo! will reimburse your family for the costs of the surgery.
It's all in this Little Red "Y". Yahoooooooooo!
Seems that Tom Lantos should have grilled yahoo execs much more than he did.
Read radical news here
This is rich. Yahoo gets dissenters thrown in prison. Yahoo then generates PR by funding these organizations. Somewhat like MS spending so much time/money in Africa helping with medical problems...that are tied to the chemical plants that the Gates Foundation invests in. Generate your own PR opportunities. Genius!
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Original article (instead of Tomcat error)
In any case, the real judge is how they decide to act next time something like this happens...
--
Educational microcontroller kits for the digital generation.
Why does China deserve a big Fuck You, as you so eloquently put it? China is a sovereign nation
:D
Mod parent funny!
Really? Please define "hooliganism" for us, if you would.
No, really - you said they knew up-front what the laws were. So please define for us, exactly, what a law based on a subjective and ever-changing term would be. Incidentally, China has thousands of such laws, its citizens have no real right to a decent trial, and "subversives" can be detained for the rest of their natural lives without so much as being read anything approaching a Miranda statement, let alone get a trial.
Idiot.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
This is that card that Yahoo! will be sending to those families.
how about when the DOJ arrests a UK citizen, off an in-transit plane (outside customs entry into the USA) at a US airport on layover, that runs an online gambling site legal in the UK but not in the USA, using data the airline supplied under homeland security? Isn't that EXACTLY the same thing. Airline Companies not of US origin allowing the USA govt to arrest their passengers when they are still on that companies property via international travel should not get a free pass either.
If China wishes to continue the suppression of its poeple, that is their choice, but for Western companies to be helping them in this oppression is beyond the pale.
Your argument is rather like Burma's military junta defending their crackdown as simply a legalistic maneuver, and after all, Burma's a sovereign country, so why should we care? Say the same for Kosovo, for Darfur, for Apartheid-era South Africa? I mean, can any abuse of human beings be justified because "It's local law and custom"?
The US already goes after companies doing business in other parts of the world over activities like bribery, even when such activities are deemed as acceptable in the place the American companies are doing business. There's a key notion here that just because you head abroad doesn't suddenly mean you no longer can be scrutinized by the US government.
And besides, when did something being a law mean that it was unassailable? Heck, laws banning interracial marriage were found in a number of states. Would you have been going up to Mildred and Richard Loving and scolding them for violating local laws?
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Yahoo just admitted that knowledge is forbidden fruit, and the governments of the world should control its distribution.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The loser = the guy in jail and Yahoo with the bad reputation.
The winner = US government who continue to tax Yahoo. And the politician who insulted the CEO in public.
This is more like US government vs US corporation. China has had the same law since the founding of the communist government.
More like "Mod Parent Sad Pathetic Beijing Slashdot Plant -5,234,242"
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
is to be respected, if that nation does not respect the will of it's people
therefore, if the country is not democratic, anything goes: you as a citizen should not respect any law of your country
authority is not to be respected if authority is not accountable to the common citizen
if a government is accountable to theocrats, royals, despots, autocrats, or technocrats, that government is not to be respected, by its citizens, or the international community
because those governments certainly don't respect their citizens
only in a democracy are the will of the citizens respected, via the vote, so only in a democracy is the government accountable to its citizens, and only democratically elected governments are to be respected by its citizens and the international community
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Surely, by them starting a fund for dissidents, they are effectively aiding and abetting dissidents, how will that not get china attacking htem?
but this was an ILLEGAL action in China and Yahoo China provided the legally required data under rules very similar to the USA PATRIOT Act here.
I believe there was some help from Yahoo US in locating the data in US servers. Here's the deal, how is this morally different from Big Box retailers propping up China's govt by paying their legal share of chinese taxes for the police that arrested these guys? Or for providing commerce to the regime?
How about when an airline provides a passenger list including passengers that won't be debarking then allows the plane to "land for repairs" causing them to get arrested for things like Online-gambling even when they don't get off the plane? How about those people that got arrested off the plane returning from the middle east and sent to Cuba? Can they sue the airline because they were illegally treated by the US and were ratted out?
It cuts both ways in spite of how Congress wants to be all high-n-mighty about it, they have passed dozens of laws that require US companies to do the same thing to both companies and citizens of foreign lands when it's convenient for them.
The purpose of power is two-fold:
1.) Retain power
2.) Increase power
There is no other real objective to power. Dissent can erode power. Dissent can be crushed by force, and if the rest of the world either fears you or needs you (and in China's case, it's both), they aren't going to do much to stop you. Sure, they'll spout empty rhetoric, but so what? They're still buying your goods, and they're still petrified of your military might.
Tin-pot dictators get away with oppression because nobody that can do anything about it in the outside world cares enough to bother. World powers do not waste time and money on human rights abuses in Lower Berzerkistan because there's no percentage in it.
Emerging superpowers like China get away with it because the only people that can do anything about it (the US, possibly Russia) need China intact and powerful to prop up their own economies, and even if they didn't they know they couldn't realistically win a war with China. War would be a disaster, and economic sanctions would harm our economy more than theirs, so they can do whatever the hell they please.
The only reason China will respond to pressure on this sort of thing at all is because they want to look good for the 2008 Olympics. Even then, though, they aren't likely to do more than try to temporarily push this stuff underground.
The fact is that laws have always been incidental to the Communist regime in China. The notion of the "rule of law" has little meaning for the leadership. Essentially, how it works, is you have a practically meaningless legislature; the National Peoples' Congress, and you have the real power brokers, the President, the Premier of the State Council and the Peoples Liberation Army. For all intents in purposes, they do as they please, the only checks being each other. To imagine that one need actually have violated a law in China to be arrested in detained is hopelessly naive. There are any number of laws which can be made to apply, and if you piss of the Chinese government, you'll be hauled in, go through a show trial and then sent off to prison.
The very idea that you can equate breaking Chinese laws, particularly those designed to shield the leadership and the organs of state from any kind of oversight by the people they claim to serve, with breaking the laws in a liberal democracy is just daft. The Chinese leadership simply has an entirely different view which isn't by any means the statutory view that you'll find in Western nations.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
What don't you get? Anything is illegal in China that threatens the state. Anything. The notion that these people were breaking laws is nothing more than a pure formality. They were threats, in their own small ways, to the autocratic governing structure in China, and they were delivered like lambs to the slaughter by Yahoo.
As I've said, if China wishes to continue suppressing basic human freedoms, and the people of China want or have no choice but to go along with it, then that's fine. But I don't think an American company has any business helping them, whether it's Yahoo, Google and Microsoft selling out dissidents and journalists, or it's Cisco providing the hardware and support for the Great Firewall. Let China do its own dirty work.
Oh, and I thought "We were just following orders" had been dispensed with as a defense for violation of human rights and dignity some sixty years ago.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
one mans freedom fighter and all that...
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Mind that the feudal system is merely just being reintroduced for China, and Yahoo for allowing stockholders (not to be confused with mutual fund holders) divine right over human rights.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
in any nation that has practiced democracy, and in any nation that ever will practice democracy, there is the mainstream agenda, and a spectrum of fringe agendas. that's your majority and minority. the fringe agendas never will be respected, and never should be respected. because democracy is working exactly when fringe agendas don't get respected: the will of the people is the great moderate middle, not the loud stupid fringe, on any issue, right or left
and please, don't for once try to equate that bullshit with disrespecting racial minorities or religious minorities. completely different subject matter
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Dear sir or madam,
We apologize sincerely for aiding in your arrest and torture. We at yahoo do not agree with reasons given for your arrest but they offered us a lot of money. Please accept this Yahoo branded T-shirt, coffee mug, nose plug, cyanide pill and Testicle NumCream TM. I hope they will make your incarceration more bearable. We have also made a small donation in your name to Amnesty International. We know you would appreciate that.
Regards
Jerry Yang
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I couldn't find that video, but here is another.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=kxUZIG0Eea4
Or perhaps we should look at how China kills more people a year then every other country in the world combined. Especially their treatment of Falun Gong worshippers. They beat them to death and tell people they committed suicide. Then they take the dead body to the hospital for organ harvesting.
I found a video on that here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fkf2u1Umzi4 It's got nothing to do with hating china and when you use that line you sound like you're working for the Chinese government, because that is EXACTLY what their defence is to any allegations of abuse against its citizens.
Although America is a crap country in my opinion that I'd never want to visit, at least they don't bulldoze down people's houses and give them almost nothing in return. They don't round up the religious people they don't like, beat them to death, tell the families they killed themselves and then take their heart, lungs, liver and then cremate the body to hide any evidence.
Sovereignty is why you don't let free trade go unchecked/unregulated.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
In some committee meeting where they were discussing the Global Online Freedom Act (not the actual Yahoo hearings), one of the congressmen mentioned those very conditions enumerated in the summary as what he thought would constitute an acceptable settlement. Perhaps Yahoo hopes that by giving in, they won't pass the Act?
The family of Shi Tao was reported to have been paid the cost of the execution and the current value of his organs.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Dissent can erode power. Dissent can be crushed by force, and if the rest of the world either fears you or needs you (and in China's case, it's both), they aren't going to do much to stop you.
That's the thing. Dissent can be crushed by force but it never real works in the end. People will find a way to speak and all fascist states have fallen up till this point due to anger over oppression of freedom of speach.
The smart power mongers will find away so that dissent can be had, but changes nothing politically.
This can be as simple as making the dissenters just seem irrational by thew view of the majority of citizens or setting up a political system in which the dissenters appear to have an ability to affect the outcome of elections but in reality it does nothing.
That way, when someone complains that the nation is turning into a fascist state, the powers that be can say "Hey! Look at this guy over here complaining about how bad we are! He isn't being repressed isn't he? We aren't fascist! Never mind the fact that we don't hold free and fair elections!"
The point is... That just because you can complain about the government won't make it a great nation to live in, if they control every other aspect of your life. That way, the citizens could complain all they want, but you won't do anything to punish them until they actually step out of line and then make it seem like they are evil criminals.
That way the power of dissent will be minimized and the power that be won't have to worry about a revolt.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Heck, even the dimmest rural Chinese citizen knows well the failings of the system (probably from bitter personal experience).
That requires them to have a basis for comparison (ie, what it's like elsewhere). Additionally, not knowing all of the things happening to other people across the country also helps the establishment.
The Chinese have historically done a very good job of censorship. When I was an undergrad I worked in a research group that was 80% Chinese, including a number of visiting scholars who were educated entirely in China. A bunch of us started talking about our respective countries once, and Tienman (sp?) Square came up. One of the Chinese scholars had never heard of it, and didn't believe it could have possibly occurred (understandably). A few of us found some articles on it, which he read. He was visibly shaken as he realized the things his country did while lying to the people. So believe me, they're very good propagandists.
What's great is Yahoo seems to be going for kudos saying they're providing for "legal assistance". Yeah, assistance they wouldn't need had Yahoo not been capitulating assholes in the first place.
This whole things sickens me. They bang on about other countries human rights violations, but apparently China has enough money to make corporations and governments not care.
Yeah, I know, hardly new, but it's still sickening.
that's the will of the people. i didn't vote him, i think he's a stupid frat boy. i hate the ahole
but i respect that that is the will of the american people
i ALSO respect the fact that he did not win the popular vote in 2000. that without the retarded electoral college, al gore would have been president in 2000, and the last 8 years under gw bush would have never happened, IF the will of the people was unfiltered
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Support Yahoo. Send a dissident to camp.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
The Chinese have historically done a very good job of censorship. When I was an undergrad I worked in a research group that was 80% Chinese, including a number of visiting scholars who were educated entirely in China. A bunch of us started talking about our respective countries once, and Tienman (sp?) Square came up. One of the Chinese scholars had never heard of it, and didn't believe it could have possibly occurred (understandably). A few of us found some articles on it, which he read. He was visibly shaken as he realized the things his country did while lying to the people. So believe me, they're very good propagandists. I have a lot of cousins there and visit frequently. They are aware they are being lied to but aren't aware what the lies exactly are. So it's very insidious. There is a prevailing cynicism but it's non specific. They assume every government does this as well. So they have a slightly skewed view of the world. Although I truly wish their cynicism was more widespread over here as well. The west is much better all around but some of the news sources are almost the same sort of editorial propaganda.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
less filtered. the usa has a problem with the influence of $$$. remove all $ from the system. all political ads are paid for by a national fund. everyone gets the same amount of cash. any cash spent in any way to support a candidate outside the system will be punished. anyone can run. all they need is enough preliminary votes. the preliminary vote cap will be set high as to eliminate fringe and joke candidates like the libertarians and nader
and go to borda or approval voting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borda_count
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting
it would be very hard to do, entrenched interests, ignorance, inertia, and all that, but it's obviously the right thing to do. cross your fingers
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What is the difference between the Chinese government forcing any telecommunications company, search engine, or whatever to give up consumer data and the US government doing the same thing sometimes without even a warrant? Or a business filing a subpoena because some anonymous person posted bad things about their company/products and they want to punish them? I suppose it is ok because anyone we do this to is obviously a terrorist and wrong so it is ok. While anyone any other 'axis of evil' country does this to is oppressing them.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
I don't understand your question I don't live in the US.
They confirm that there was no massacre in the square, that almost all the students who had been demonstrating there for two weeks had left the square quietly in the early hours of June 4, and that the real incident was panicky fighting triggered by crowds attacking troops, initially unarmed, as they headed for the square on June 3.
In the process a still indefinite number of troops, students and civilians were killed and many military vehicles were torched. Call it a mini civil war if you like, with troops eventually getting the upper hand over unarmed insurgents. But that is not a deliberate massacre of innocent students.
Curiously, the photo that most media use to illustrate the alleged student massacre shows a row of blazing army vehicles, some with crews trapped inside, in a long avenue that clearly is not part of Tiananmen Square. Indeed, the U.S. Embassy material speaks of troops only finally entering the square after some students attacked and killed a soldier in a vehicle at the entrance. Most of the discussion you see here is doctrinaire (freedom, liberty, freedom, etc.) oligarch propaganda. The media-owning conglomerates/monopolists send their ready-made legislation and paid-for legislators to Washington, and what you see on TV is the party line that is to be toed.
"Oligarchy", now there is a label you basically never hear in the USA media even though it is the economic-political structure under which it operates. Journalists and activists who use it inside the borders get character-assassinated, whereas those who use it in foreign protectorates like Columbia and Philippines get murdered by US-supported "guerrillas" (terrorists). Meanwhile, the USA mouthpiece media wants you to see another of Bush's speeches linking Queda to 9-11, and another rehash about two murdered Russian journalists, and Tiananmen too; and you will still hear much about communism even though it supposedly doesn't exist anymore. But not oligarchy. Even "capitalism" is curiously infrequent, as self-examination of the system is discouraged.
What is the true difference between the USA and rivals like China and Russia? It boils down to USA enjoying the spoils of empire, creating political apathy officially labeled "peace and lawfulness" at home... while people on the frontiers burn and starve and those elements that not friendly to the military-industrial-legislative complex get drugs trafficked into their communities and a draconian "zero-tolerance" police state apparatus that sends more adult males to prison than any other country by far.
China is resource-strapped, hungry and crowded to the gills (though they can be thankful that US/UK forces have not fed their population drugs for many decades). And Russia has a waning civil war on its hands. Neither of them has had the luxury of sending their scoundrels abroad to rape and pillage, while playing potemkin village at home, for quite some time. And what makes either of them much different than India, for that matter, is beyond me... human rights violations abound with respect to all of the above.
What differs above all is the combination of selective blindness and hysteria generated in the pivotal Anglophone media. It will be interesting to see how their attitude changes as their influence abroad subsides... how much more cheerleading and demonizing will they be willing to do for the next conquest (er "liberation")?
dude. democracy=rule by the people
you call it "proletarian dictatorship"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
that's like "dry water" or "bright darkness"
i can't even begin to put into words how out of touch you are
let's just put it this way: list all the problems you have with democracy. now look at every other government type. conclusion: EVERY OTHER GOVT TYPE IS WORSE
get to work on the space ship there bub
or, accept that the great moderate middle is not on the cutting edge of fringe issues. nor ever they will be. but they get there, slowly. and when they get there, such as with gay rights, etc., then gay rights will be accepted and respected. but until they do, tough shit. don't like that deal? guess what: NO OTHER GOVT WORKS BETTER THAN THAT in terms of the issues you care about like gay rights
congratulations, welcome to reality. deal with it
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You don't need a basis for comparison when one can generate their ideal world in their head and make that ideal world the basis for comparison. We have a phrase that somewhat covers it to some degree - lies, damned lies, and statistics. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to figure out what I mean.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
You know, a return to "Made in the USA" wouldn't hurt any.
OSx86 FTW
He's a very smart man. --Rape and pillage to gain your wealth, realize that your life-span is finite and that the world hates you. Hm.
Will Gates invest in anything which would minimize MS's returns? Will he promote openness in information and software and knowledge? Not likely. Gates might actually think that he suddenly cares about people, but I find that hard to believe. It seems more that he is trying to put his muddy name through the washer so that history will remember him with love rather than for all the many nasty things he's done. He's no better than any other self-loving selfish personality. Rockefeller and Hearst were the same way.
But hey, who says money can't buy you love?
-FL
> Terms of the deal are secret,
I bet you'll find them on Google...
It is a little more complicated than everyone seems to think.
The basic fact of the matter is Yahoo is an American company, operating multinationally. As an American company, or, as any non governmental individual or organization, Yahoo does not have the right, let alone the obligation, to act unilaterally in any matter concerning a foreign entity, state or otherwise. That is the responsibility of the State department.
Obviously, the State department does not have the resources to respond to every issue that a multinational encounters, but, in this case, there were guidelines as to proper procedures to follow when such a request from a foreign entity was made. Procedures that Yahoo did not follow.
It would be nice if the issues were a simple good versus evil type, but they are not. The US's relations with China are incredibly complicated, and they are all intertwined. It is not as if morality always takes the last place in considerations, when the moral issues are big enough, the US has a long history of overriding economic issues in favor of morality, ranging from Northern mills giving up southern cotton in the American civil war to the smoking and global warming initiatives of the next administration.
In this case, the State department would have had to weigh the welfare of one foreign national against that of a large number of American citizens. I do not know what State would have decided, but I do know the State department is really not obligated to consider the welfare of non Americans; the whole point of a government is that it is responsible to and for it's own citizens, only. The proper decision on how to handle the request was the one that was in the best interests of America, not of Yahoo, Yahoo stockholders, or any other parties involved, foreign or domestic. It would be a tough call, even without Yahoo deciding to get into the game without knowing all the rules.
So, Yahoo screwed up. It happens. They are trying to do their best to at least take responsibility and clean up as much of the mess they caused as they can, I am so very proud of them for that. If Yahoo gets some good publicity from that, so much the better, encouraging companies not to hide behind lawyers when they make a mistake is probably one of America's most important social goals.
P.S. As an amateur institutional economist and sinologist, I do feel obligated to point out that there are several misconceptions about China in the responses here.
First of all China does not repress dissent at a village level; it can't, the population is far too large for that. Heck, they can't even keep a lid on corrupt manufacturers, and thats a lot easier task. What China does is something slightly different. Chinese are allowed to dissent at a village level, all they want. The Chinese are not a particularly tame people, their contempt for their leadership is traditional, just like here in America. The Chinese people can even organize (which is NOT the same as dissent), up to a village level. The Chinese government considers that a harmless (relatively) way of releasing the tensions that are inherent in any political situation. It is also one less group of people they have to micromanage. It is not like anyone is going to listen and obey without the use of force, anyways, the Chinese traditionally ignore their government's wishes as much as they can, again, just like here in America.
Beyond that, however, China suppresses organized dissent, very hard. When you consider that, even at that small level of freedom, riots involving 80,000 or more Chinese are common, you can pretty much understand China's reasons for those policies; those riots, historically, have been very destructive. As a matter of fact, in Chinese history, many times those riots have spread, and millions of Chinese have died. Right now, practically everyone is predicting a major set of riots next September, after the 2008 Olympics. A lot of what you are seeing right now is the Chinese government trying to make sure it doesn't happen e
Despite it all, the Executive is still constrained by Congress and the Judiciary. There is simply nothing in the Chinese power structure that resembles the checks and balances in the American system, unless you consider the way the President and Premier play the power dance with the PLA somehow similar to the Constitutionally constrained entities of the US government.
There is no real regularized judiciary in China, so saying that Chinese officials knocking on Yahoo China's door is the equivalent of the FBI or Scotland Yard knocking on your door is as piss-poor an analogy as there is. In China, the fact is that if they decide your a threat, there is no appeal, no fair trial, no guarantee of adequate representation. You're fucked, truly and completely, so Yahoo China selling out dissidents is significantly different than Yahoo in the States turning in someone because law enforcement has a warrant approved by a judge.
Yes, there have been abuses in the States, but the party largely responsible for it has lost control of Congress and, unless things change dramatically, looks about ready to lose the White House as well. The very fact that power changes hand in that fashion ought to preface any claim of moral equivalency between the US and China.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The level of abuse in China pales in comparison to even the worst parts of the PATRIOT Act. The comparison doesn't hold water. I'm no fan of some recent American legislation, but there are different shades of "bad", and China is very, very much further on the scale than even the most heinous of American laws.
Not to mention that "we were just following orders" was deemed a non-defense at the Nuremberg trials. Somebody writing a decree on a piece of paper does not absolve you of your personal responsibility to behave with due morality.
It cuts both ways in spite of how Congress wants to be all high-n-mighty about itThe parallel can be drawn, but they are not the same. The US has due process and the rule of law, both concepts do not exist in China. When a company is compelled to turn over information, a warrant is required (recent Bush shenanigans notwithstanding), official records exist that will be accessible after the conclusion of any investigations. The entire thing is (fairly) transparent and accessible to the people, including the accused. To do anything to the individual involved, even with this information, requires officially charging the individual with a crime (which has to be clearly defined in legislation, not just trumped up in some generic category like "treason"), and granting him a right to fair trial in a jury of his peers, selected through a rigorous process to ensure impartiality. Heck, undue influence of the jury can even result in a mistrial.
China? The process goes more like... Make trumped up charges based on vague, generic crimes not well defined in any sort of legislation. Compel companies to release confidential data with neither warrant nor proper, transparent procedure. Imprisonment without a fair trial - or use your control of the media to stage a laughable trial with jury members cherry-picked from party loyalists. Convicted "criminals" have no legal recourse, no access to a higher court of law, nor an appeals process.
While America has certainly taken a few steps backwards, one would be sorely mistaken to believe it's ANYWHERE near as bad as China in its current state.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
"Laugh while you can a-monkey boy!" - Dr Emilio Lizardo
Oh really? I didn't realise the survivors of Hurricane Katrina were put into secret prisons and beaten. Please tell me more about that.
Okay, you're an idiot.
He's making money off software (not killing or maiming people, but writing pieces of code) and he's using that money to HELP people.
You know? Those things like curing AIDs and other diseases, finding ways of providing potable water etc?
He runs a business and he is a little ruthless about it, yes - but it's business.
Priorities man, priorities.
The Condorcet Method. But changing our country's voting system is about as likely as us developing a porcine air force.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Remember, this is the man who, when he found out his partner was dying, didn't send flowers, but rather got into a gleeful debate with his other partner about how they were going to screw him over for his shares. That qualifies as something a little different than just ruthless business practice. It indicates a man who is missing essential human parts; who, to put it bluntly, cares more about himself than he does about human suffering, or curing disease, or finding potable water, etc.
I'm just pointing out how it is; people have short memories and the Beatles had it wrong.
And that doesn't make me an idiot, but it does make you an emotional reactionary.
-FL
First you said... Although America is a crap country in my opinion that I'd never want to visit, Next you say this when I asked what you don't like about USA. I don't understand your question I don't live in the US. If this is true, then how did you come to the conclusion in the first statement?
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
Ah sorry I completely mis-read your question.
When I mean crap I am talking about the laws and typical government stuff. I have many American friends and they're all nice people and the culture is nice too.
There is one really big gripe I have and that is with the "us vs. them" mentality towards politics where people try to place you into a left or right wing box depending on your views on a particular subject matter so they can then easily ignore anything you say if you're not on "their side". It feels like no one in America can hold their own particular views and have to be part of "a team" when it comes to talking about how the/a country should be run.
I guess the biggest reason I wouldn't visit is because I think it is too dangerous there right now. First you have to worry about the plane being hijacked on the way over, then you have airport security to deal with, then you're outside anything could happen and it costs a lot of money to go to a hospital in the US.
Enough about America this is about China.
And you are dense. You realize his little feel good organization DOESN'T make money off of software. It makes money investing in Dow Chemicals, Tyco, and other wonderful polluters. He also invests heavily in medical companies who keep those cures and treatments out of reach of the poor. He invests in financial institutions guilty of predatory lending practices.
He isn't using the money to help anyone but himself. Would you believe how great of a person I am if I opened an emergency gunshot treatment center in downtown (BigCity) and then armed the gang members so I would get more victims to look good treating?
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
so why do we allow business there... allowing billions of dollars trade with them is de-facto approval by our government that China is OK. the rest is simply getting OUR rules in line with how THEY behave so our companies can compete "fairly" over here too. mercenary companies like "have been in the news lately" get paid big buck by the US govt and corporations to actually shoot these same "common folk" that get in the way of US big business even when those locals are completely right... when will that change? Saudi Arabia and Dubai have even worse Human rights records than China (but lack the body count) and the US government actively supports them, stations troops to protect then when they restrict our own CITIZENS from bringing religous materials into those countries because it might upset them. The US govt only supports freedom of speech and religion when it doesn't get in the way of business dealings. If this journalist was trying to crack a story about a toy company using lead paint on purpose, it'd be just fine to bury them.