Intel, Microsoft Despised the XO Laptop

gregsim writes "The Wall Street Journal today reports that the new XO laptop, centerpiece of the One Laptop Per Child project, is stimulating an active response from both Intel and Microsoft. The companies evidently feel threatened by the little upstart, intended to help third-world children. (The XO runs Linux and uses AMD chips.) Microsoft has cut their software to $3 each and Intel has designed their own laptop called the Classmate to sell between $230 and $300, nearly double the XO's price. Rather than defend the relative merits of his creation, professor Negroponte is crying foul and (if the article is to be believed) not even arguing the technical merits. The initial demand for the XO has fallen well below Mr. Negroponte's projections as Intel and Microsoft have successfully argued that their entries are superior. 45,000 have been ordered through the Give One, Get One campaign. I am happy that I ordered mine — it will be a landmark model in any case."

Comments

Competition is good

[I'm Don Giovanni]

If Negreponte's goal is to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children, why would he be angry? Those poor kids deserve choice, and competition from the Classmate provides that. So fewer kids get the XO, so what? Seems like Negreponte is letting his ego cloud his vision.

Re:Competition is good

[macz]

Competition is good, but anti-competition is bad. Negroponte's argument is that the big boys are smothering XO in the crib with half-assed attempts at being cheap (but DRM and IP laden).

Re:Competition is good

[0123456]

"If Negreponte's goal is to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children, why would he be angry?"

If Microsoft and Intel put Negreponte out of 'business' by selling subsidised low-cost PCs, how long do you think they'll continue to sell them afterwards?

They're not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, they're doing it because they see a competitor they want to eliminate.

Re:Competition is good

[chuckymonkey]

Ummmm, the kids don't really have a choice about which one they get. They are ordered by the kids' respective governments. The other problem with the Wintel offering is that it's not environmentally hardened like the XO. For a kid in a mud hut having a computer that can take intense amounts of punishment is very important. Another thing I don't like about Wintel interfering is that it really isn't geared towards learning, they're worried about a bunch of kids learning something other than M$ software and intel Hardware. The XO is pretty much agnostic when it comes to software and hardware, they're going for cheap durable and good for learning which they have with the current setup. Now if Wintel were worried about the kids not getting something important to education and took steps to mitigate that lack then I don't see anything wrong with them getting involved, but really all they're worried about are future profit margins.

Re:Competition is good

[kat_skan]

If Microsoft and Intel put Negreponte out of 'business' by selling subsidised low-cost PCs, how long do you think they'll continue to sell them afterwards?

Maybe a long time if Walmart decides that selling $200 laptops along side their $200 desktops sounds like a good idea. Granted that won't help children in developing nations much, but it'd sure do something interesting to the PC market.

Re:Competition is good

[ktappe]

he really ought to leave this stuff to the pros and let the market bring prices down.

We HAVE left it to the "pros" for decades and what did they provide this marketplace? Absolutely NOTHING. They completely ignored developing nations in favor of the high margins of the first world. Only now that someone has finally paid attention to the billions of computerless do Intel and Microsoft get off their butts and half-heartedly and belatedly bring a half-assed and overpriced solution to the market. Nice.

I'm not sure who I'm madder at: Intel & Microsoft for their transparent claims of "trying to help", the potential recipients of the XO who are being fooled into not ordering it, or folks like you who are not seeing any problem with this whole cock-up.

Re:Competition is good

[NMerriam]

There's a big difference between actual competition (which is great) and competition that exists only long enough to bankrupt a competitor so that your primary market is extended (if only for a few more months).

If MS and Intel want to seriously get -- and STAY -- in the game of providing system for the developing world, that's great. The concern is that they'll produce just enough press releases for the XO to stop getting orders it needs to stay viable, then once the XO is basically dead, MS/Intel say "oh, well now that we look at the market, we really think tour new $500 design is more appropriate". Then it would take another year or three for the XO or something similar to get back into production. Anyone with more than a few months of experience in the computer industry is familiar with this pattern.

As a side note, I was shocked when my sister, who is about as technical as "my computer's cupholder is broken!" actually mentioned the "buy one get one" promotion over Thanksgiving. They've done a great job marketing, even if my sister didn't have any idea what the program was about or what made the computer unusual, she just knew about it as the $150 laptop.

Re:Competition is good

[bornwaysouth]

People seem to be slanging off Negreponte as being overly protective of his invention. According to the article, he isn't. He is in the education business, and happy that a side effect of his initiative is that cheap laptops are becoming available. He is not in the business of flogging laptops. He has technical concerns about apples-with-oranges comparisons.

I suspect he expects his initiative to fail. Not for lack of merit, but simply the gross inadequacy of the decision makers in most countries. Bribery is the norm in international trade, and the need to appear powerful must be near universal among politicians. Microsoft is powerful, Linux is not. So go where the power is. Additionally, ' branding ' works in all societies. He will not be expecting a kiddies book ending here.

Re:Competition is good

[Anonymous Coward]

What is being offered by Microsoft and Intel is an inferior, but more expensive product. They are trying to leverage their (arguable) monopolies to not only set a higher price than the market wants, but to make sure legions of children don't grow up learning non-Intel, non-Microsoft products.

It is hard to blame Microsoft entirely, since they can't exactly compete with free. Intel, on the other hand, has no excuse. If they were truly acting competitively, they would try to sell Negroponte on their processors and compete with AMD (you know, their actual competitor) that way, and not screw over those kids in the process.

Re:Competition is good

[vtcodger]

***$3 for Windows? come on.***

I agree that's a bit more than Vista is really worth, but maybe they'll give up another 20-40% on volume orders.

Re:Competition is good

[Fourier404]

Actually, they have done something. If you haven't noticed, computers have gone from being $10K to $300 or less for a budget machine. Laptops are also getting ever cheaper and were going to be hitting the $300 price point themselves because middle-class kids all want laptops and not all parents are all that rich. There are two kinds of poor countries we're talking about here: There's China and India, who don't need our help, their economies are exploding and are going to take care of themselves, and then there's the African countries wracked with violence who wouldn't have money to spare on laptops for all their children no matter how cheap they were.

Re:Competition is good

[Colin Smith]

What is being offered by Microsoft and Intel is an inferior, but more expensive product. And your problem is? If it's more expensive and inferior then it'll be unsuccessful.

Re:Competition is good

[Bert64]

Depends who does the buying...
If the people buying these machines aren't spending their own money, and intel or microsoft offer them some money into their own back pocket in exchange for spending more of someone else's money, what do you think they'll do?

Re:Competition is good

[Colin Smith]

In that circumstance you think whether the OLPC or whatever is successful or not is the problem?

Re:Competition is good

[hhas]

Competition is great. Microsoft selling their products as $3 a pop isn't competition though, unless you think $3 is cost price or greater. That's a subsidised loss leader intended to undercut the competition and thereby put them out of business, a classic anti-competitive tactic. You're welcome to disagree, of course, but try fitting out a US-based organisation with $3 copies of MS software and see how long it takes the BSA to drop on them like a ton of bricks.

Re:Competition is good

[cyphercell]

The problem is companies like Microsoft and Intel go unpunished when they effect a coup de grace, against a gentleman like Negreponte, who is actually trying to do SOMETHING. Fact is no one knows what the real solution is, but you can't defend Microsoft's right to participate in foreign corruption just because the place is a shit-hole.

Re:Competition is good

[thrillseeker]

If it's more expensive and inferior then it'll be unsuccessful.

Only if the market is actually free (of biased legislation, etc.)

Re:Competition is good

[Wavicle]

They're not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, they're doing it because they see a competitor they want to eliminate.

I call false dichotomy. They could also be doing it because it is an emerging market they want to enter. Also, ClassmatePC comes with Linux as a (cheaper) option. Further the target markets are slightly different. XO is aimed at primary school children while the more capable (and slightly more expensive) Classmate is aimed at secondary school children.

Re:Competition is good

[burnin1965]

If Negreponte's goal is to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children, why would he be angry?

Good question, and the answer is that Negroponte's goal is NOT to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children.

http://laptop.org/vision/index.shtml

          "It's an education project, not a laptop project."

        -- Nicholas Negroponte

No matter how many times it is explained over and over again it seems Intel and Microsoft have successfully twisted this story of constructive education into some cheap assed laptops for the poor expanding market dilema where there is a need for competition. If Negroponte is pissed he has good reason to be and anyone at Intel or Microsoft who has been involved in the stupid classmate PC project and the efforts to kill OLPC should be ashamed of their scum bag used car salesman tactics.

Negroponte and his team put in the effort to research and develop their constructive education idea and now that they have implemented all their learnings and research into a ready to deploy solution you have these greedy bastards trying to destroy the project in the name of market share and profits. And make no mistake about it, neither Intel nor Microsoft actually have any interest in the goals of the OLPC project or the poor countries it is intended for, their involvement is self serving and designed to generate PR so they can maintain mind share in their current markets, not in some imagined expanding market in poor countries where they see potential for profit.

I may come across as rather harsh on the classmate PC and Microsoft and Intel's actions but again I think its deserved considering the years of work the OLPC people put into a non-profit project with admirable goals only to see it threatened in the name of greed.

Re:Competition is good

[jc42]

What is being offered by Microsoft and Intel is an inferior, but more expensive product.

And your problem is? If it's more expensive and inferior then it'll be unsuccessful.

Not true at all. The poster child for the situation is Netscape, but Microsoft has "done a Netscape" on lots of other startups.

Fact is, a high-quality product by a small, underfunded company can be and often is squashed by a poor-quality product with a large advertising budget. That has been Microsoft's approach from the very start, when they had the huge IBM budget behind the first model "IBM PC". The tech world smugly predicted that such a shoddy, overpriced computer couldn't possibly succeed against the many better things that were already for sale. But it did succeed, and most of those CP/M companies are long gone, because people recognized the IBM brand, and IBM could spend more on the ad campaign than the entire operating budgets of all its competitors combined.

That's exactly what MS will try here, and chances are very good that they'll end up bankrupting the OLPC project before it gets off the ground. MS has already shown that it's willing to use bribery and back-room politics to derail OLPC orders. They've probably learned to not be quite so blatant, and cover their tracks a bit better, and they may well succeed with such tactics in many cases.

This campaign could well be yet another textbook case in how monopoly capitalism works. Stay tuned; it'll probably be well covered here, though not in the mainstream media.

Re:Competition is good

[cecil_turtle]

There are a number of things wrong with that statement. It's an extremest point of view that "we shouldn't worry about X until Y and Z are fixed". Similar statements are "we shouldn't try to cure aids until after we cure cancer". Yes, parts/most of Africa has a number of problems larger than "kids don't have laptops". But if you know anything about this project, it's not about giving kids laptops so they can bang around on MySpace all day like american kids do. I suggest you get educated about the project, goals, the technology implementations, etc. Download an emulated version. Try out the server version that teachers/schools will run. Understand the potential impact on education in Africa, which may accelerate forward progress of upcoming generations in Africa.

Re:Competition is good

[Anonymous Coward]

no, for a kid in a mud hut, NOT LIVING IN A MUD HUT is very important. not computers.

Why? Mud huts are cheap to build, easy to maintain, and do an admirable job of keeping the wind and rain off you.

You are making the typical rich-white-kid mistake of looking at people in a developing country, picking out the aspect of their life that you would like the least, and assuming that that's their biggest problem. In reality, however, mud huts are irrelevant. They're low on prestige, but in a practical sense they're a pretty good form of housing in that environment. Whereas education is critical, and these computers address that problem directly.

Re:Competition is good

[Entropius]

I would include dishonest advertising as another factor making a market non-free.

Re:Competition is good

[QuietLagoon]

f it's more expensive and inferior then it'll be unsuccessful.

Then explain windows' success.

Re:Competition is good

[h4rm0ny]

f it's more expensive and inferior then it'll be unsuccessful.

Then explain windows' success.

Because Windows 2000 and Windows XP weren't bad operating systems. Flaws, yes. Unsuitable for most users at home or at the office, no. I've not used Vista yet so cannot comment there, but there are reasons why the Windows OS's were successful. We have a decent alternative now , but we didn't a six years ago. Hence the current market position MS has. It's not the best solution for developing countries that have more options than people in the USA and Western Europe did, however. That is why I would like to see the OLPC with Linux become the de facto standard for a while.

Re:Competition is good

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, thing is, in 3rd world developing countries, many children don't have this fancy thing called electricity, and what's worse, many people don't even know how to read. In Africa especially, the air is dry, which leads to small particles entering the laptop. The classmate PC isn't designed to be anything more than a cheap regular laptop, and most certainly isn't designed for these conditions.

By contrast, the XO laptop isn't dependent on a powergrid. The interface is developed so that you *don't have to know how to read* in order to use it (Administer it, yes, but not in order to use it. Windows falls flat here), and what's even better is that it's designed for rough usage. Not to mention that the XO laptop is designed to *be an education tool*, while the classmate PC just happens to be a Laptop with Windows thrown onto it.

So, the XO laptop is clearly technicly superior for the intended market. But, marketing and other stuff can still make it fail. I'm hoping it won't though.

Re:Competition is good

[ozmanjusri]

But that leaves them out of the ~90% of computers that run windows and puts them at a substantial disadvantage in that regards.

That's an important point, and it's why we're seeing so much effort from Microsoft.

The more Linux machines that get out to real users, through the OLPC, Asus EEEPC, Nokia N810 and other similar machines, the clearer it will become how much of a lie that disadvantage claim is.

A successful OLPC project would show the world definitively that an expensive, proprietary, antifeature-laden OS is an unnecessary waste of money and resources.

Would a starving ethernopian...

Ethernopian?
Christ, at least with enough OLPC using kids out there we might get some decent discussions on Slashdot, not more of this ignorant, bigoted astroturf.

Re:Competition is good

[Antique Geekmeister]

There are other big issues. The OLPC boots in seconds, and is extremely efficient in terms of power, and massively avoids all the gewgaws Microsoft mandates as "features" for its software. This is deadly to new markets for them, so Microsoft and Intel are engaging in a normally illegal practice called "dumping". This is using the money from your more profitable markets to sell your goods, below cost, to drive a competitor without such deep pockets out of the business.

The practice is most easily done by a monopoly to prevent competitors from entering the market. We see it extensively in the diamond market, we see it by Microsoft in China to block Linux releases, and we've seen it in new markets by Intel. So there's no surprise here.

Re:Competition is good

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

DRM and IP are abso-freaking irrelevant to the education of third world students. The goal is to improve education. All actions by all players should be viewed through that lens. So bring up IP and DRM, if you think that effects the education of the end users ( and please explain that non obvious point), but not because you hate MPAA and RIAA because of what they do that affect your life. We are NOT talking about you. Negroponte is upset because Microsoft is using pressure to use an inferior product at a higher price which will be worse for the students. Period.

Re:Competition is good

[gonebursar]

I wonder if part of the reason for the lower than expected demand was that they've not allowed international buyers, while the laptop has garnered international attention. The boss and I were going to put forward a proposal for the city we work for to buy ten or so through the give-one-get-one program, with the ten we got going to the library system. The donation thing makes the city look good, and the laptops themselves are perfect for library use: durable, nearly idiot-proof and cheap enough that it's not a major concern if someone breaks it or 'steals' it. Heck, in the latter case, we could remotely brick it to encourage its return.

And then we saw the "only for US and Canadian residents" notice and our hearts sunk.

Re:Competition is good

[MadAhab]

I checked this thread just to see who made the "dumping" argument.

According to the article I read, Microsoft has been dumping Windows+Office at $3 into these markets to stunt the OPLC market share. That's dumping by any definition.

The worst was reading some guy from Libya saying they opted for Intel/MS vs OPLC because they didn't want to be a dumping ground for OPLC. Wait 10 years, let MS get their hooks in, then as soon as the competition is gone, no more $3 windows. This is how the developed world always rooks the undeveloped world. The 419ers are just a tiny bit of poetic justice by comparison - it turns out the nuclear weapon Microsoft holds is the same psychology that fuels Ponzi schemes. Just afraid to be left out of the "success" everyone else APPEARS to be having.

Sad, really, that this one official will sell his whole country out to loan sharks because he's scared of not looking like a cool kid ("no one ever got fired for buying IBM!"). Well, that and probably some well-placed bribes.

Re:Competition is good

[AoT]

And anyone who has more than a few months of experience in economics knows that the third world is fairly inelastic in their demand for computers so this argument is complete nonsense because these people simply cannot buy a $500 computer.

Which is exactly the problem. The OLPC program wants children to have access to computers for educational uses. Microsoft and Intel want to make money, which they will likely not be able to do in the long run, at the prices the XO goes for. Which means that their best bet is to run it out of town then hike prices and leave out a big segment of the society. But those people don't really count as they don't have money.

Re:Competition is good

[shark72]

"I don't really see how laptops will improve education anyway. Wasn't the goal to give these to kids in areas that don't even have electricity all the time? Instead of pouring money into laptops, wouldn't it be better to pour money into building schools and infrastructure and hiring teachers? Sounds like a better investment IMO."

False dichotomy. There are other foundations and NGOs that build schools and hire teachers. Negroponte, being the techhead that he is, wants to distribute laptops. If they help kids with their math and reading, then more power to him.

Keep in mind that lots of these laptops are going to places where they already do have schools and teachers, but they cannot afford to provide computers for the students. This is where the program steps in. As for your fundamental question of how having PCs will improve education, in these cases, it will improve education in the same manner that having access to PCs improved our education. Sure, we could have done with pads of paper and pens, but it would have righteously sucked.

"In any case, I think DRM is bad in an educational setting. Do you really want kids learning that DRM is just the way it's done?"

How does DRM even apply here? Because the kids won't be able to make copies of the stuff they're buying from iTunes? Because they can't make copies of games and DVDs for their friends? If they're running into DRM, odds are that they're not using the computers for their intended purpose.

Re:Competition is good

[AoT]

And your evidence for this is what exactly, other than your person incredulity? Every one of the suppliers for the XO's parts has a profit motive.

Well, there is the fact that the XO is sold by a non-profit and it uses an OS that costs no money, so it makes sense to say that anyone selling such a computer will be able to undercut the prices of a company making money on both the OS and the hardware.

Re:Competition is good

[1u3hr]

It's not a false dichotomy, you can only spend the same money once.

It's not the same money. Much of the investment in OLPC is from high tech companies, which would not be contributing to more "mundane" causes if not for the OLPC. And government investment would go to other IT projects if not this one; that's the point of TFA, Intel and Microsoft are taking shares of the pie. If not for OLPC, probably MORE would (or will) be spent on these.

And if you still insist on the "one pot" theory, why not complain about the millions of dollars spent on Mercedes Benz for government ministers in impoverished countries? Billions spent on weapons? Fortunes spent on cosmetics? More billions spent on cigarettes and alcohol? Why pick on the OLPC to pick up the tab?

Technical merits?

[CRCulver]

It seems to me that the children to whom these laptops are going don't need whizbang computing power, they just need basic computing ability. The OLPC project has no need to "argue the technical merits" of their device against potentially more powerful (but more expensive) competition when the price for this technology is the lowest around.

Ah, the canonical monopoly response...

[FooAtWFU]

Ah, yes, the canonical monopoly tactic to competition coming along.

• sit there minding your own business making $$$$$
• competitor comes along with something
• monopoly makes its own stuff to CRUSH the competitor (optionally even suffering a short-term loss)
• things drift back to making $$$$$
• market failure!

Re:Ah, the canonical monopoly response...

[tftp]

1. OLPC makes a $100 notebook, offers for sale at cost.
2. Wintel makes a $50 notebook, offers for sale at great loss.
3. Customers leave OLPC and stampede to Wintel.
4. OLPC closes up the shop.
5. Wintel cancels the project. Customers stand there empty-handed.
6. Wintel wins - by doing nothing other than a few press-releases.

Competition is always welcomed, or so says everyone here

Do _you_ still say so, after this scenario?

Re:Ah, the canonical monopoly response...

[Anonymous Coward]

The customers who bought a device got what they wanted. Those who didn't, didn't.

And those who would have wanted to buy a device tomorrow, can't, because the company that was set up to sell them has been forced out of business, and the monopoly that forced them out of business is not actually interested in selling anything in that market.

That's the problem. Competition is good, but fake competition (selling a product you don't want to sell, to ward off a potential future threat to the market you care about) is not good.

Re:Ah, the canonical monopoly response...

[Antique Geekmeister]

Until 3 years later, when they need a new laptop for a new child or for a project or their old laptop needs upgrade or replacement. And until you need new software, which is locked to that proprietary OS and costs 5 times as much as it should.

$230 not 'double' the price

[Anonymous Coward]

The XO is selling for $199. $230 is hardly 'double' the price.

Re:$230 not 'double' the price

[ravenlock]

Nope, $399 buys you one and another for a kid, $200 of it is tax-deductible.

Waste of time

[Anonymous Coward]

The third world needs a lot more than a cheap laptop. They have to figure out agriculture first!!!

Re:Waste of time

[okmijnuhb]

Who needs agriculture? They can just order food online after making some quick cash with some online scams.

Re:Waste of time

[Colin Smith]

They have to figure out agriculture first!!! They can't figure out agriculture till the USA and EU stop dumping their subsidised agricultural overproduction on their markets and open their own agricultural markets to competition.

Re:Waste of time

[Artemis3]

And make it illegal for USA and others to sell their patented transgenic sterile seeds that happens to kill local species...

Re:Waste of time

[Erris]

What, instead of forcing GMO's and patents on both local and foreign farmers? That would be welcome everywhere, perhaps in ways you don't expect.

Got an Asus Eee PC instead

[DrXym]

The OLPC is an amazing project and will spearhead a whole slew of cheap laptops. I am just disappointed that OLPC themselves didnt see the potential in selling a consumer version of their device. I bought an Asus Eee PC largely because there is no consumer OLPC. I love the form factor and everything else about the OLPC but why restrict it to 3rd world countries when the appeal is universal? They really should sell a consumer version - bump the storage capacity, flash it with Fedora and maybe ship it in a black / white version but please sell the damned thing. The Asus Eee PC demonstrates the enormous demand for these devices. The OLPC project is denying themselves a pile of sales and profit by not releasing a consumer version.

Fighting a non profit

[coolate]

The real annoying thing is that they are not jumping in the market to help kids but undermine a non profit so they can get the market. Other companies like AMD have been helping the effort, but Microsoft and Intel see it as competition. This is a non profit effort. Next the pharmaceuticals will be going after the red cross because they want to sell cheap blood alternatives to disaster victims. Yeah competition! I am proud to have gotten one.

When they discover they're worth $200 on eBay

[Colin Smith]

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=OLPC&category0=

You'll find the OLPC is basically just a financial subsidy to the poor in the developing world...

What's the average annual wage in Bangladesh?

Double the cost of the XO? Huh?

[SuperBanana]

Intel has designed their own laptop called the Classmate to sell between $230 and $300, nearly double the XO's price

What? The XO was targeted to cost $100. It ballooned out to $130, then $175, then $188, then $200.

Now, if you want to donate 10,000 of them, you get that $200 price. If you want to donate 100 or less, you pay $300 per laptop.

Why they have a sliding price scale is beyond me...they're supposed to be a non-profit, building the things for the poorest people in the world, and yet...the fewer you buy, the more you pay...

Re:Negroponte's Dumb Idea

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The thing is, Negroponte's $100 laptop suffers from the same flaw as Ford's Model T ultimately did. A used computer will probably give you more capability than a cheap new one. I think for $150, you could buy a notebook that's better than this "everyman's computer", and while you were at it, you could probably buy a used generator.

The cheapest I can find a hand powered generator capable of powering a laptop, even used, is about $60. The cheapest I can find used laptops online is about $200. How much value there in the tailored OS, preloaded with software and reference material and preconfigured to be ideal in the conditions of the third world?

I think you're very mistaken. Getting a good laptop that will work well for children in these situations, with questionable access to electricity is a lot harder than you seem to imply. And even if you do, it probably will still fail to meet the second half of the criteria, which is to say it is all free and easily editable/customizable without any lock-in to a particular vendor. The first world has undercut the agricultural sector in much of the third world and catching them up with agricultural equipment and fertilizer production would cost a huge amount. Providing them with the foundation to enter into the intellectual property industry, including custom software. This is a chance for them to develop a sustainable industry and income and offer their services to the world.

Negroponte is surprised about the actual demand?

[Flavio]

If so, I'm sorry to say he lacks the cynicism to deal with politicians, specially those from third world nations. These individuals will endorse any project that makes them look good. An OLPC endorsement is marketing gold from a politician's point of view, because it ties education, children and technology -- areas which third world nations are very reluctant to invest in -- all at zero cost.

Talk is cheap.

As long as it's helping the cause

[moondo]

It's irrelevan whether MS/Intel or Linux/AMD's product is "better". All that matters is that kids in bad situations get access to technology and information to advance their futures. If either of them is serving the cause, then it should be supported regardless on what camp one stands.

Re:That's great

[stretch0611]

Competition is good...

However, Monopolies are bad. This is a clear case of a monopoly using its power to stifle long term competition at a short term profit loss.

Do you honestly think Microsoft would offer both an OS and Office for $3 if it wasn't trying to stifle competition? As soon as the OLPC project is broke and a memory, expect the price of Microsoft's software to increase exponentially.

Re:Negroponte's Dumb Idea

[that this is not und]

Right. You could buy a used computer. And a generator. Then all you have to do is arrange for the fuel truck to stop by every little while with more fuel... and the used notebook doesn't have much memory, and every machine in the school is a different model than every other machine... yes, great idea.

Re:Found the Problem

[tom's a-cold]

No real vendor support. Who is going to buy these things when they have to fix every single problem themselves?

Haven't travelled much, have you? What, you think Fedex does pickups in rural Chad at a rate the locals can afford? Believe me, it's difficult calling support when there's no phone. In much of the world, it's mend and make do. If someone local doesn't do the work for you, it isn't going to get done.

So perhaps you have some ideas about how vendor support will be provided by the likes of Microsoft?

the nature of the competitive threat

[Gary W. Longsine]

I'm not sure about Intel's role in this, but Microsoft undoubtedly sees a threat beyond what's being discussed here. The threat isn't directly Negroponte and the One Laptop Per Child project, it's Linux. If you put a cheap laptop in the hands of a few hundred million kids, they won't grow up to be afraid of it. That's the real threat. Microsoft's threat horizon exceeds a generation.

Re:the nature of the competitive threat

[swillden]

in the USA many jobs require some basic knowledge of Windows and Office.

In the USA many jobs require some basic knowledge of computer concepts, like files and folders, user accounts and passwords, use of a mouse, etc. They also require knowledge of word processor use, spreadsheets, e-mail, web browsing, etc. For those uses, Windows, Linux and OS X are interchangeable.

The XO operating system is a little further out there, because the UI is quite different from Windows or mainstream Linux distributions, but even there the differences aren't going so large that significant retraining is required. Especially since the XO is specifically designed to encourage exploration and make its users comfortable with the computer, rather than afraid of it. A user who is willing to explore a little and understands basic concepts can easily figure out how to get the job done, without a lot of remedial training.

Even more important than all of that is the simple fact that we're talking about kids who aren't going to be in the workforce for years, and during that time the systems are going to change -- probably more radically than they have in the last 10 years. The key is to understand what computers are and how they work, and for that purpose the XO is a significantly better system than any variety of Windows. I think kids who grow up using an XO laptop will probably be more capable of using a Windows 8 system than kids who grow up on Windows.

Finally, odds are that in the parts of the world where lots of XO laptops are used, when the kids enter the workforce they won't be using Windows anyway. That, of course, is what terrifies Microsoft.

Re:the nature of the competitive threat

[bbbl67]

Do you think Intel joined the project (MSFT did NOT) just to help AMD integrate the XO v2? Geode is a dead end.

I know about Silverthorne, but it looks like it isn't good enough to join XO just yet, either. The AMD Geode still has the substantial advantage of being both CPU and a chipset in the same package. So all of the power calculations are based on a single chip, so a 1.1W Geode is altogether a 1.1W product. A Silverthorne even if it is 1.0W vs. Geode's 1.1W, is going to have a substantial hit in power consumption once you add its external chipset in. Even if they can get the chipset down to the exact same power consumption as the Silverthorne processor (highly doubtful), you would then have a 1.0W CPU + 1.0W chipset = 2.0W package. Then there's the additional problem that having two chips to deal with, will substantially complicate the circuit board layout. For this reason Intel announced that they are now working a totally new processor architecture, which will be separate from Silverthorne. They haven't released too much info about it yet, but my feeling is that it's going to be an integrated solution just like Geode. Don't expect that to be out till 2009.

Let me see who defends capitalism

[bogaboga]

It is in situations like these that capitalism disappoints me. Those who tout capitalism will say that "it's a free world"..."survival for the fittest" and so on.

But in this case, companies are entering a [new] market in order to kill competition. No wonder, even in the so called developed capitalist markets of the industrialized world like Canada, no foreigner can own a majority stake in the telecommunications sector for example.

Re:Let me see who defends capitalism

[onefriedrice]

Few tout capitalism as a perfect system. Most of us are aware of its shortcomings, including a more uneven distribution of wealth. But when it comes to alternatives like socialism, capitalism has proven to be more stable and progressive at once time and time again.

By the way, the ability for bigger companies to take advantage of their size to steal business is not capitalism. Capitalism is competition, and this would obviously be anti-competitive. In the U.S. we have laws against this which are rarely enforced. For this reason, many people get it into their heads that capitalism is broken and socialism is better, when in fact the real problem and solution is simply to enforce the laws. Socialism would merely retard our progress which it has proven to do repeatedly. If you bring up China as a counter-example, note that China's power and influence has risen in the world as it has accepted capitalism.

In short, capitalism is good when the laws work to ensure good competition. Unfortunately, right now we have a government in the U.S. full of people who don't really listen to what the people say (specifically Congress), but writing your representatives would traditionally have been a good idea. The only thing to do now is elect better people next time.

Re:this whole thing stinks and I don't like it.

[Rob Simpson]

Add something in? A used computer would need a generator a hundred times as powerful than the XO requires. Continually pedalling on a bike might work, or maybe a small gasoline generator. Yay. The XO is also meant to be durable - unless the used PC was a Toughbook, it'd quickly be trash, as would the Asus EEE and the Classmate. Not the XO.

There are plenty of places where people are surviving and have basics like clean water, but are still poor. This is something intended to give them more opportunities, it isn't the only thing they need. (Sending food, by the way, usually just ruins the local farmers and/or fattens the pockets of warlords.)

Why there is an OLPC

[kriston]

I'm waiting for my XOPC which I ordered at 6:05 AM on day 1 of the Give-One-Get-One program.

The reason for this machine and its unique interface, power saving, and wireless connection is for empowering people who do not have computing expertise, reliable power, or even telephone connections.

An important use for the machine that is overlooked is to provide textbooks to children in areas which simply don't have textbooks.
The laptop has an important reflective screen for e-book reading.
Imagine having all your courseware on one machine that you transmit to them wirelessly?
Furthermore, Worldspace at www.worldspace.com has committed to using part of its satellite radio bandwidth to transmit courseware to areas like Africa, India, and Asia.

The free sharing of textbooks and courseware are far and away the most important aspects of this laptop.

Have you ever taken a class for which the textbooks were on back-order? These children deal with that every school day. The copier is always broken, there is never any paper or toner, and this laptop helps to solve all these problems.

Finally, a price point I can appreciate

[Dachannien]

Hmm..... I suppose I'd pay $3 for Vista.

Re:They can break anything...

[garbletext]

You are clearly an intelligent and compassionate man. Kudos to you for your extremely nuanced and well-researched opinions on the cultures the OLPC is targeted at. I hope you will consider running for political office in the future, and once you inevitably make it to president, that you suspend the constitution and act as a benevolent autocrat, guiding the world with the light of your brilliant mind.

Freedom is more valuable than choice.

[jbn-o]

Because "choice" is not always good, and merely getting "cheap laptops in the hands of poor children" is not the goal. One must be mindful of what the choices are and their long-term implications. A choice of being dominated by a proprietor is inappropriate for all users. This computer aims to educate and a system users can totally modify and learn from to suit their needs. Basing the XO on free software is entirely appropriate as is using the computer in freedom. Building the XO on proprietary software is wholly inappropriate. It's a good thing that these kids can investigate what's really going on and help one another, making their computers do what they want and only freedom can assure that.

The "choice" argument is one used by software proprietors and their sympathizers to make non-free alternative seem equal to free software. Dependency and separation, an imposed inability to help oneself is far worse than independence, helping one's community, and social solidarity.

Congratulations!

[_KiTA_]

Microsoft has cut their software to $3 each and Intel has designed their own laptop called the Classmate to sell between $230 and $300, nearly double the XO's price.

The initial demand for the XO has fallen well below Mr. Negroponte's projections as Intel and Microsoft have successfully argued that their entries are superior. 45,000 have been ordered through the Give One, Get One campaign.

Congratulations! Now that Mr. Negroponte's been publicly screwed by Microsoft and Intel, he can officially call himself a computer manufacturer.

Way to go!

Re:3rd world needs to figure out birth control fir

[LooTze]

Studies in India have shown that the best way to reduce population growth in a democracy is to educate women. Percolation of computers and cell phones into the rural areas have allowed significant (class room/world exposure type of) education to happen even outside the schools. This has been a more recent phenomenon and while these have had definite economic advantages (e.g. google - kerala fishermen cell phones). It is not clear as yet whether this type of education will also help in the same way but it definitely seems plausible. In the absence of coercion there appears to be no other reliable way to reduce the growth rate. Needless to say, the benefits of education and access to computers has obvious advantages in things like agriculture, etc.

Re:Negroponte's Dumb Idea

[Rob Simpson]

Keep in mind that you'd also want a rugged laptop, so make that a used Toughbook. And even the most energy-efficient laptop would probably use at least ten times as much electricity as this. You'd either have to charge it for ten times as long before use, or continually generate power while using it.

What use is a classMATE ...

[IchBinEinPenguin]

... without a classROOM?

The XO is designed to work without one. No mains, no shade, no dust-free environment, no roof to keep the rain out ...
What makes the XO special is what it is what it _does not need_.

Intel's Sucker Punch. Tech Merits are Obvious.

[Erris]

Behold "peace" with Intel and M$:

In May, Mr. Negroponte appeared on CBS's "60 Minutes" and blasted Intel, suggesting it was trying to drive his nonprofit out of business. ... Two months later, Intel announced it was joining One Laptop's board. The agreement included a "nondisparagement" clause, under which Intel and One Laptop promised not to criticize each other, according to Mr. Negroponte.

but

He seems most frustrated with Intel, whose overseas sales force has trumpeted the Classmate over his laptop in Nigeria and Mongolia, using marketing materials that claim the Intel machine is superior. "These are not isolated examples," he said in a recent interview. "They are daily events."

Par for the Wintel course, self restraint is foolish because M$ and Intel will always pull every trick they can. When convicted monopolists urge you to hold back, listening to them is the worst thing you can do. Intel traded a few million dollars for what's going to millions of units in sales. That's too bad, because Windoze is the wrong OS for the job.

It's easy to see that the usual one size fits all Windoze is not useful to school children, especially those in the developing world. It's designed for US fortune 500 businesses and to satisfy the wants of the MAFIAA. It's dependent on a $400 "office" suite for the most basic of paper writing in English and it has little else. Native editing and authoring tools are pathetic, networking is designed for an office LAN and media tools are designed to extract money from rich US college students rather than to encourage creativity. Foreign language support in Windoze is pathetic, as you would expect from software that can't take corrections in the field. All of this can be said about M$'s latest and greatest OS. I'm scared of what they have to offer for $3. Any developing nation that wants to see what will happen to the Intel machine has only to look at what happens to the millions of used laptops the developed world disposes of daily in their backyard. Laptops being tossed out by the developed world are more powerful and have better software but could be used right now by developing nations for next to nothing. They are not used because they are not well suited to the task and Wintel laptops that make it to the developing world today are sent there as toxic waste. OLPC addressed all of these concerns in their design.

Re:Negroponte's Dumb Idea

[asuffield]

Providing them with the foundation to enter into the intellectual property industry, including custom software.

That particular idea is fundamentally flawed. If there is one thing that we have learned from the technology-based industry in the western world, it's that the vast majority of people have absolutely no ability to work in it. It's not like farming - if you can hold a stick, you can be a farmer. To write custom software worth paying for takes ten years of near-full-time experience and practice, a flexible mind, and the ability to think. People in the third world are not going to be any better at doing these things than we are, and we suck at it. A small handful will be able to do it, probably will do it, and will get disproportionate attention in the media. The vast majority will accomplish nothing at all. You do not turn farmers into knowledge-based workers by giving them a laptop. There are no short cuts in establishing a modern-style economy across half a planet - it takes centuries of work, in education, industry, construction, and technological development. Nothing that you can put into a media soundbite will accomplish a damn thing.

If this endeavour is going to have any benefits at all (and that's pretty questionable - whether it's worthwhile is open to debate, but it is definitely not certain that it will be), this is not going to be one of them.

Re:Double the cost of the XO? Huh?

[tgd]

Or you can buy one, donate one for $400 and donate the second one as well. Two donated, $200 a piece, $400 tax deduction and you still get a year of T-Mobile internet access.

Re:Negroponte's Dumb Idea

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

That particular idea is fundamentally flawed. If there is one thing that we have learned from the technology-based industry in the western world, it's that the vast majority of people have absolutely no ability to work in it. It's not like farming - if you can hold a stick, you can be a farmer.

I said work in intellectual property including custom software. Today, a few thousand people with these laptops could probably make more than they do now, by solving captchas. Pretty much anyone can learn to be literate and to read/write several languages with a few years of training, so they can be paid for translation work and editing. Then there is original content production, data entry, etc.

To write custom software worth paying for takes ten years of near-full-time experience and practice, a flexible mind, and the ability to think. People in the third world are not going to be any better at doing these things than we are, and we suck at it.

Right, so they're no better at it than we are, but have a thousand times the unemployment rate in some localities and will work for one one hundredth the cost.

You do not turn farmers into knowledge-based workers by giving them a laptop.

First, they aren't farmers now, they're children without much in the way of skills because farming does not pay enough to pay taxes on the land when the US is giving the same food away for free. You turn them into knowledge based workers by giving them a laptop and network access and a wealth of educational data and software specifically designed to be easy to modify for their entire childhood. It is called an education, and growing up with a basic laptop, wikipedia, and internet access will allow them to develop computing skills as they grow. Did you have access to a computer when you were young? Do you know many people who program who did not?

There are no short cuts in establishing a modern-style economy across half a planet - it takes centuries of work, in education, industry, construction, and technological development.

Does the phrase "modern-style economy" actually mean anything? An economy is an economy and providing tools that educate and are usable, certainly can make a real difference.

If this endeavour is going to have any benefits at all (and that's pretty questionable - whether it's worthwhile is open to debate, but it is definitely not certain that it will be), this is not going to be one of them.

Okay your skepticism is noted. That said, this is the best effort I've ever seen to provide a sustainable income for people growing up in some of these countries. If you think giving up is a better idea, then there is not a lot of point talking to you, otherwise; let's hear your better and more effective idea.

Re:Found the Problem

[jc42]

No real vendor support. Who is going to buy these things when they have to fix every single problem themselves?

I'll bet that in most villages (or poor urban neighborhoods), there'll be 2 or 3 kids with these that'll immediately want to take them apart and learn how they work. They'll also dig into the software, and start writing their own. The rest of the kids will call them the local equivalent of geeks and nerds, but they'll learn. And they'll be the local support crew.

An important ideal in the OLPC project has been to make the kids as independent as possible of the external power structures that have kept them down. Making them dependent on outsiders for support would only continue this bad history. Making it easy for the kids to take the gadgets apart and study them means that they'll be independent of outside support.

Of course, the companies that make their profit from support contracts can be expected to find this a threat. It is a threat to their future profit. Some of those kids are going to be the local suppliers in the future. And they won't be beholden to a foreign computer supplier, because their supplier has worked to make them independent.

It is a bit curious that this approach is being pushed by an American "entrepreneur". Who'd'a thunk? ;-)

Not "competition"

[Tony]

Competition is basically when a consumer has a choice among products.

In this case, both Microsoft and (especially, in this particular case) Intel use their market clout to *shut out* the OLPC. They are basically buying off governments or distributors to the point that OLPC isn't facing competition-- it's not getting a chance to compete.

That's the problem with unbridled corporatism (which is what we are seeing, rather than capitalism). Corporations get to the point that *they* are afraid to face real competition, so they do what they can to ensure competition never gets a chance to take root. This includes non-market avenues like controlling distribution or buying off governments.

What's new here?

[Glasswire]

As I said on ./ on Fri July 13, OLPC is a project, not a product. Just because the current XO laptop is AMD Geode-based doesn't mean the next gen OLPC product won't be based on the 2008 (less than 1 watt) Intel Silverthorn processors which would likely be the basis of XO v2 - which will be much faster with even lower power draw.
The Classmate is what it is. If a country wants it more than the XO and used some legitimate criteria for deciding, they have the right to do so. Intel certainly looked at what buyers found attractive about the XO in designing the Classmate - OLPC should look at what customers find attractive in the Classmate for XO v2.

Ok...

[Blakey Rat]

First of all, that summary was kind of long and confused. Is this story about:
1) Microsoft cutting software prices?
2) Intel making similar hardware?
3) The price of Intel's similar hardware? ($230 is hardly double the XO's price, considering it's currently $200. But, you know, we'll go with it.)
4) Mr. Negroponte's disappointment in the demand for it?
5) 45,000 XO laptops have been ordered?

It just kind of rambles from one point to another without being firmly *about* any of them.

Secondly, isn't imitation the greatest form of flattery? How can you be so sure that MS and Intel are saying "let's crush this program!" and not "hey, that's a good idea, let's try it."

Three Intel MYTHs Busted Here

[Glasswire]

1) MYTH: MSFT and Intel constitute the evil Wintel cartel. Fact: MSFT doesn't like Intel's Classmate PC - read the Wikipedia article on it and you'll notice that there are 3 supported OS (Mandriva Linux, Metasys 2.0, Windows XP). XP is poorly suited to the Classmate and some form of Linux would likely be the OS
2) MYTH: Intel hates OLPC. Intel is PART of the OLPC project (since summer 2007) - Microsoft is NOT. (The original poster doesn't even mention this) Perhaps this would imply that next gen XO unit will be Intel-based ( see this post for more on why )
3) MYTH: AMD Geode is superior technology. FACT: It's very lightweight, low power technology that AMD bought from National Semiconductor. It's not based on current technology. Intel is developing a whole generation of much lower power, but much faster processors - due partially to the magic of 45nm- in the Silverthorn cpus. coming in 2008. What's interesting about them is not so much the technical specs, but that the process technology lets the dies be so small that Intel will be able to put thousands of processors on a single wafer allowing Intel to make them very cheap and still get good margins for them. The whole target market for these cpus is phone/handhelds/MIDs and very basic systems that need x86 instruction set with sub-one-watt power consumption (and good performance). It is exactly what XO v2 should be built on.

Re:Three Intel MYTHs Busted Here

[RightSaidFred99]

It's kind of sad and silly you're stuck in 1987. x86 has won the uarch wars, and it's making its way into everything. First, Silverthorn will have superior performance compared to e.g. ARM - period. Second, it will have comparable power use. Finally, people know how to develop for x86, and the tools know how to target x86 easily. You're going to "sadly" see it trickle down to smaller and smaller devices, but nobody but people stuck in 1987 who still where "CISC sucks" t-shirts will be sad about it.

3rd world countries are 3rd world countries

[Cafe Alpha]

Because their governments make poor decisions. Also, from what I heard from a friend of mine who used to work at a manufacturing company, Intel uses (highly illegal, in the US) strong arm tactics. His company responded to threats by Intel (that they better buy their multisourced chips from Intel, otherwise their single sourced chip orders wouldn't be filled), by resesigning their product to use NO Intel chips.

Bribes and threats. That's what Intel probably has going for it in the 3rd world. No doubt those MIT nerds aren't up to that level of the game. So they'll fail.

Not a Monopoly

[DrYak]

so the negroponte's camp had the "monopoly" (a oh, so loved word here) or the solo position in this project

The major point is that their project was free/libre opensource based. It could have been emulated by any one else. And whole point of Negroponte is that one day, as those kids grow up, they would be able to easily start their own computer technology project, based on knowledge they acquired learning on tools like the OLPC and using technology and ressources available freely for them to base they project on, thanks to F/L-OSS.
It's not a monopoly to Negroponte because their technology isn't locked into their own hands at all.

Your analogies are bad.
It's not Pespi or Coke, it's OpenCola and Vores Øl (recipes freely available on wikipedia for every one to use) against both of those corporation.
It's not BigMac or Super...whateverstuffyoumentionned, it's home grilled buger on your own backyard grill (without any intellectual property lawsuits involved) against the fast-food corps.

The main purpose behind this is bring those kids a tool that they can subsequently own themselves and do whatever they want to do. This is possible with free/libre software, because that's the whole point for which the GPL license and the FreeSoftware Foundation where created.
This wouldn't be possible with microsoft in the play, because whatever happens with the Classmate, the software running on it will continue to be the private property of Microsoft. Everything one could dream to do with it will have to be done only after obtaining license. Even if it may cost only 3$ currently, it remains in the hand of a foreign US company.

XO Laptop is about empowering the current learning kids, and giving them something that they can control.
Classmate and $3 Microsoft softwares is about creating a steady stream of future consumer which have been raised into sheepishly thinking that information technology is only something that come from a foreign US company, and who could one day buy Microsoft's future software at whatever price they decide then.

It doesnt matter if XO is a big hit or not

[voss]

Asus is already coming out with the EEE pc, so intel will have to keep making classmates.

There is a market in the US for $200 laptops, in classrooms if nothing else.
The ability to have a laptop cart with 20 laptops for under 5k instead of the normal $25000
is a disruptive technology.

If XO does nothing else but bring down the cost of laptops for people around the world..then
Mr. Negroponte deserves our gratitude.

XO: The O is for Obnoxious

[beefubermensch]

Yeah, so I don't like the OLPC project because it implies that human problems are technological. I've heard that the OLPC was inspired by Papert's Logo work, and even comes with a version of Logo. Great. Send instructors trained in the 'Logo method', work with locals to build schools, and provide cheap computers with Logo installed, and you've won me over. Sending the computers alone is obnoxious.

It's also obnoxious because they initially weren't going to sell them here. They're only doing it now as a desperate measure, and they still force you to buy a donation. So what's not good enough for us is good enough for Africa? Boo.

It's obnoxious because it missed its $100 price by a factor of 2 -- they even had to change the name of the product.

But nothing takes the cake like *complaining* when the sales you thought were destiny don't materialize. Oh yeah, it's the competition's fault! Weak. Presumably Negroponte thinks the competition is evil because they're for-profit. That's like Microsoft complaining about Linux being free.

But there is something good about the OLPC: it's gotten much farther than any other Media Lab project to date. How to really help the Third World: take the millions blown at the Media Lab on barely-functioning undergrad art "installations" and put it towards some Logo schools. Or maybe even just -- gasp -- regular schools.

-Carl

Microsoft is fighting them over there so...

[PhoenixOne]

I think part of the reason may be fear of losing a big part of their market to super-cheap laptops.

Most people use their laptops/destops to do mundane stuff: email, web-browsing, word-processing/spreadsheet stuff mostly. A $100-$200 laptop that could run firefox/openoffice, small enough to fit on your lap in coach-class of the airplane, and could run all day could really cut into their sales.

You're walking on the ceiling

[Joseph_Daniel_Zukige]

of the next floor down.

You know, looking at the world upside down.

It's infel's Classmate that is trying to be the cheap "everyman's computer".

Or, I could correct your little composition:

The thing is, Otellini's $300 laptop suffers from the same flaw as Ford's Model T ultimately did. A used computer will probably give you more capability than a cheap new one. I think for the price of the XO, you could buy a notebook that's better than this "everyman's computer", and while you were at it, you could probably buy a used generator. And neither the kids nor their teachers would be able to use them anyway.

All those who are worried about support can go to the olpc wiki and look at the pilot projects in progress. The only reason there would be logistics problems is if infel and Micro$oft deliberately interfered.

If that would have been true...

[feranick]

... Windows would have been long dead.

Salting the Earth

[N8F8]

Even though there is no real economic market in these areas, Intel and MS are salting the fields. Preventing other competitors from gaining a foothold is the endgame.

Knowledge != IQ

[raftpeople]

If someone doesn't know why a contaminated water supply is a problem, that does not mean they have low intelligence, it means they do not have the knowledge surrounding bacteria, etc.

Here is a definition of intelligence, as you can see it applies more to potential than an already accumulated set of data:

Intelligence is defined as general cognitive problem-solving skills. A mental ability involved in reasoning, perceiving relationships and analogies, calculating, learning quickly... etc.

Whether the laptop program ends up being beneficial in the big picture is unclear, but it's a digital age and I think it makes sense to get the kids interested/comfortable with technology because it will encroach on their lives eventually. Additionally, there could be someone with a mind like Srinivasa Ramanujan sitting in a village that could get real value out of this, you never know.