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Gene Study Supports Single Bering Strait Migration
Invisible Pink Unicorn writes "One of the most comprehensive analyses of genetic variation ever undertaken supports the theory that the ancestors of modern native peoples throughout the Americas came from a single source in East Asia across a northwest land bridge some 12,000 years ago. One particular discovery is of a 'unique genetic variant widespread in natives across both continents — suggesting that the first humans in the Americas came in a single migration or multiple waves from a single source, not in waves of migrations from different sources.' The full article is available online from PLoS."
Does this mean that Native Americans really aren't "native"?
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
"We examined genetic diversity and population structure in the American landmass using 678 autosomal microsatellite markers genotyped in 422 individuals representing 24 Native American populations sampled from North, Central, and South America. These data were analyzed jointly with similar data available in 54 other indigenous populations worldwide, including an additional five Native American groups. The Native American populations have lower genetic diversity and greater differentiation than populations from other continental regions. We observe gradients both of decreasing genetic diversity as a function of geographic distance from the Bering Strait and of decreasing genetic similarity to Siberians--signals of the southward dispersal of human populations from the northwestern tip of the Americas. We also observe evidence of: (1) a higher level of diversity and lower level of population structure in western South America compared to eastern South America, (2) a relative lack of differentiation between Mesoamerican and Andean populations, (3) a scenario in which coastal routes were easier for migrating peoples to traverse in comparison with inland routes, and (4) a partial agreement on a local scale between genetic similarity and the linguistic classification of populations. These findings offer new insights into the process of population dispersal and differentiation during the peopling of the Americas."
In short, yes... this has been pretty widely known for a long time. That's not their point. Their point is that all the people who over to North America came from a single, highly localized area in East Asia... not from all over the place in Asia and elsewhere.
If you haven't seen it yet, watch (or read, I suppose) "Journey of Man."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Journey_of_Man:_A_Genetic_Odyssey
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman.html
It provides a great grounding in the science and methodology, and the documentary is narrated by the scientist who did much of the research (a rare treat).
Only to certain misguided evangelicals.
;)
Most interpretations disagree. St. Augustine being the most notable.
The real question is "Can God kill himself?"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is interesting stuff, although from the article the issue doesn't seem to be closed completely. But even if it was a single migration event, that doesn't mean there wasn't subsequent trading contact - we know that happened on the East coast of North America long before Columbus, and it would be fascinating to see a full account of the West coast evidence. That's something I've heard rumors about but have never actually seen.
A-Bomb
the oceans have been rising since the last ice age, Al Gore forgets that part
Are you guys serious? Seriously, who DIDN'T already know this? This is a troll... like asking "so Linux is some kind of operating system?" in an article about the new scheduler. Well, maybe it's worth some "Funny" moderation...
Maybe 12,000 years ago that was true, but not today. Otherwise you might as well say humans aren't native to anywhere but Africa, or that land creatures aren't native to anywhere but the sea.
People can't really help where they're born.
Well theoretically, under trinitarian doctrine Jesus IS God, and God sent Jesus down to die. Therefore God did kill Himself.
So does this mean that I really have Chinese people working on my lawn, not Mexicans?
Hmmm... we might want to reconsider building that wall along the Mexican boarder. Didn't seem to work too well on the Mongolians.
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
I've seen documentaries on TV about this stuff. Unfortunately, I
can't cite sources only do this from memory. (Maybe somebody else
can provide links/references.)
But, as I recall, there is evidence that there was a signicantly
different ethnic group (race?) of people here who were possibly
wiped out by the invading ancestors of present day Native Americans.
There was a fossil human found in the Pacific Northwest, whose
face was reconstructed and found to resemble Patrick Stewart.
There's been a lot of controversy as it's a very sensitive subject
for some modern day Native Americans.
If an earlier group of people were wiped out, the only genetic
signatures you'd find for them would be in fossils, right?
In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
Lisa: "You know, in a way, all Americans are immigrants. Except, of course Native Americans."
Homer: "Yeah, Native Americans like us".
Lisa: "No, I mean American Indians."
Apu: "Like me!"
Does this kill the idea that some South Americans got here by sailing across the Pacific?
So what you are saying is that Captain Picard time traveled back to the 15th century only to be killed by his great-great-great-great grandfather, thus completing the paradox?
What I find interesting about this article isn't in the science -- it's in the data as reported. So they gathered Native American folks together and performed some very advanced genetic analysis -- which in essence leads to the conclusion that "all folks in the group have certain genetic markers", and the closer you get to the so called "Bering land bridge" (heck, coulda been ice and canoes too....), the more genetically alike the people are. Okay, I'll buy that. Considering that the Inuit peoples, etc. are even now visually related to the folks from the step areas of northern China and Siberia than say, the native folks from Columbia. Who are more related to each other and the folks just north than say, I am [my ancestry is such that I'm one of those blue eyed migrant mutt imports from northern European countries who emigrated to what is now the US in the 17th and 18th centuries ]. What I don't see is evidence that says "all ancient peoples from all cultures including dead ones" (Mayan, etc.) share this same gene pool and no one else. Or that the folks from the Steppes of east Asia aren't themselves migrants at the same time and from the same gene pool as folks that arrived in the Americas at some distant point in the past.
My point is, the science seems interesting...but the explanation of the data is not exclusive nor conclusive regarding other possible genetically analyzable possibilities. So the jury will still be out until at some point in the future, until all of the other plausible possibilities have been ruled out.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
And so it started.....
Guns are for wimps... Use a crossbow.. this way you can pin them to their chair when you go postal.
Did they use a tricorder analysis or something? Why call it a Gene study and name it after the Star Trek creator? Perhaps it was a tractor beam and not a land bridge? Or where people transported across by Scotty?
In a knock down drag out no holds barred fight to the finish. Did we mention that the land shark has a fricken laser? We'll sell you the whole seat, but you'll only need the edge, edge edge!
Sorry, I've been stuck in the server room for two hours watching the HVAC guys and the fan noise has obviously driven me insane.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Cartographer, largely regarded as the source of the name "America" from his maps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci
So I guess this study conflicts with the OP....
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
But there were people here before 12kya, learning the "Clovis" point from the French, inventing chewable crack cocaine by themselves (using calcium carbonate), and generally having a good time.
Folks have been here so long it is hard to calibrate their radiocarbon dates.
Genes can be killed off. We have artifacts older than genes. I guess the Old Ones got killed off. Was Kennewick Man (portrayed by Patrick Stewart) an Old One?
Anyone with specialist knowledge, please comment.
Weaksauce troll. 1/10.
Even the christians on slashdot are generally too intelligent to buy into that young-earth crap. Try digg.
Perhaps you're right, the public education is bad, you can't even use the word except correctly. Did you intend to use accept?
Remember that a migrating group 12,000 years ago wasn't moving fast and had few choices of routes. Even if several groups crossed to North America, they came through a small region of Asia (even smaller before glaciers retreated). Plenty of chances for groups to exchange genes with a small group of Asians. It's not surprising that there are common genetic markers.
Wasn't there some studies being done discussing a possible migration from Western Europe to America by means of a glacial landbridge?
just don't sully the bloodlines of us pure rift valleyians
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
However, the difference is the Chinese didn't come here to STAY, invade, expurgate, demolish, or hijack an existing, thriving human ecosystem (competitive and warring, true), nor to subject the Natives.
...?
What evidence do we have for these assertions?
Given the scant archaeological evidence -- very interesting evidence, yes, but scant -- how can we say anything more than "Chinese ships arrived at an early date, carrying glass beads" and "some tombstones and obelisks appear to be Chinese"
I submit that these archaeological evidences tell us more or less nothing about Chinese motives. Perhaps the Chinese attempted to conquer the native peoples, and failed. Or, maybe the Chinese were noble non-invasive explorers. No way to tell.
-kgj
-kgj
the oceans have been rising since the last ice age, Al Gore forgets that part
No. If you'd actually been paying attention, by looking at the evidence over the last SEVERAL Ice Ages, we have determined that our climate is way outside the norms.
Everyone, even Al Gore, understands that the world gets warmer after an Ice Age then peaks, and then gets cooler as we head into another Ice Age. And everyone gets that we will experience 'global warming' until we peak, and the cycle turns the other way.
The issue here is that the evidence shows that we're FAR FAR beyond where we usually peak between Ice Ages.
Its like gravity and the mantra "Whatever goes up must come down!" And everything we through into the air until the 20th century complied with that rule.
But if you've go up high enough fast enough you don't come back down naturally.
Now at this stage with 'global warming' we don't KNOW we can't come back down naturally, but we don't have any evidence that we will, either. We are NOT within the normal climate parameters for the 'warming periods' between Ice Ages. We are FAR beyond that.
You'd be the guy sitting on Voyager-1 going, "I don't see what all the fuss is about the potential for leaving the solar system never to return. We throw things up, they peak, and then they fall back down! And everything that we have ever launched upwards has always had a stage where it was 'going up'. The people raising this issue forget that part."
Either Monte Verde is bogus or it means that an earlier population just simply died out.
you wrote alot of stuff starting with "no", but you completely ignored the absolute truth of my statement that the oceans have been rising since the last ice age. With or without the minute contribution to the ocean levels by climate change, the peoples who are relocating because their lands were within inches of sea level would have to do so in future decades anyway, because sea levels will continue to rise with or without man's contribution.
I think the story goes.... God sent Jesus, and the Jewish elders had him killed by the Romans.
Excuse me, could someone explain to me how "the theory that the ancestors of modern native peoples throughout the Americas came from a single source in East Asia" is not a theory, as the !atheory tag seems to point out?
You just got troll'd!
A single glance at pictures of Tibetans and natives from the Andean highlands convinced me of that years ago - but then I'm not a scientist and don't work under any burden of proof, so I have it easy.
Go against the group think, and you get modded down into oblivion.
This totally ruin's their theory that ships came across from northern Africa to South America. Sort of blows all sorts of holes in their religion.
. Few can argue that Columbus is the first non-native person to set foot on the Americas since the original migration
Actually, there's a pretty solid chance the Vikings made it to Canada for a bit. So they beat Chris by almost 500 years.
you completely ignored the absolute truth of my statement that the oceans have been rising since the last ice age.
Probably because the absolute truth about that absolute truth is that it is irrelevant.
With or without the minute contribution to the ocean levels by climate change, the peoples who are relocating because their lands were within inches of sea level would have to do so in future decades anyway, because sea levels will continue to rise with or without man's contribution.
Again, No. The oceans have been rising since the last ice age because the polar ice is melting and the glaciers have been retreating since then. But THIS much ice doesn't usually melt; and the ocean's don't usually rise this much.
In other words, the people who have to move right now due to rising oceans would be just fine, if this was -any- other inter-ice-age period in recorded history.
So, no, they shouldn't 'have to move in future decades anyway'. The ice that is melting NOW, didn't melt after the Ice Age before it, nor the ice age before that, nor even the ice age before that, and on down the line.
This ice doesn't normally melt between Ice Ages! Get it?! But its melting NOW!
Not ALL the ice on the planet melts between Ice Ages. The glaciers retreat, but they only retreat so far. You knew that didn't you? Well THIS time the Ice that doesn't get melted between Ice Ages is melting.
And as a result the oceans are rising MORE *IN TOTAL* than they normally rise between ice ages.
I do wish people wouldn't make such baseless claims as that. "... the first ..."? We have found some fossil remains that predate that (as in, more than 12000 years ago) by quite a bit. One could claim that those others failed to survive where they'd have descendents alive today - raising the question of when they died out and for what reason - but claims that the first humans in the Americas arrived 12000 years ago are obviously false.
Probably you got modded Off Topic because you started your comment with "Probably I'll get modded troll or off-topic
Probably.
He doesn't forget it, you just can't make money off the carbon trade if people think it is natural. It all has to be your fault, and there has to be something that can be done about it.
Unlike what is claimed in the summary, the study makes no claims about the "first humans" in the Americas, only about the ancestry of the existing descendants of early settlers.
IMHO, it is a stretch to use the analysis they did for making conclusions about migration routes and so forth. We're talking about an analysis of general DNA diversity after over 10,000 years of empires, wars, and extinctions of many lineages.
1) We know there existed in the south, especially the extreme south, morphological diversity non-existent in the north. Some examples are the "giants" Magellan and others saw in Patagonia -- even if you discount his reports, the most conservative estimates still put them at 6 1/2 feet tall, which is still "giant" by comparison to everything else at the time; There is another extinct race -- whose bones we actually have, not based on reports of others -- from the same region, with thick bones, large vertebrae, and prominent browridge, almost as if they were a cross with neanderthals.
2) Analysis of the Y-chromosome DNA distribution and the mitochondrial DNA distribution, show a much different, and apparently unrelated, distribution between the male ancestry of the current populations, and the female ancestry. As with most of Asia and Europe, the female ancestry in the region is older, which stands to reason as with new invasions, female populations are kept, while male populations are killed off and replaced by the invaders. Except, in the Americas, the last successful invaders seem to have a significantly different genetic history than the original females.
3) Certainly, there were migrations over the Bering Strait. There's lots of evidence for that. But IMHO, the only reasonable conclusion is that there were also migrations by sea to the west coast of South America around the same time. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence to support it, and the only argument against is that people 10kya were too "primitive" to navigate the ocean -- which is nothing but "cave man" prejudice.
That's only the surviving population; it doesn't tell you whether there were previous migrations that didn't survive, or small previous migrations that just completely got absorbed in the last big one.
People that are hypothesizing previous migrations (and there is some archaeological evidence) generally also assume that those populations died out, were killed, or were absorbed by the "native Americans".
The land bridge connecting Siberia to North America was still in existence 6000 years ago, and there was most likely migration into and out of the Siberian territory and North America between 12,000 years ago and 6,000 years ago.
That is totally wrong. Even the IPCC report correctly state that the peak temperature during the last interglacial was significantly higher than present temperatures. (It blames a difference in orbital factors, which is unfounded.) There is nothing climatic that is outside the normas at all, certainly not temperature. The only thing that is outside the norms is CO2 concentration.
The Mormons claim that the American Indians are decendants of the ancient Israelites. (Main storyline of the Book of Mormon.)
Problem is that all of the evidence, including this, disprove that conjecture. Not that Mormons look at evidence that might challenge their beliefs. (They are taught to look the other way when faced with proof that their beliefs are total fantasy.)
Of course the history of The Pearl of Great Price's translation should have shown them that the Church is not true, no matter how many times they repeat the mantra in testimony meetings.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
You speak of Native Americans as if they were all the same culture. Some tribes did live in peace and harmony with each other. Others were warlike. You do know that we got our idea of a Republic from the Iriquois Confederacy, right? Obviously, you didn't get very accurate or in depth "native American heritage".
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
the first half of the 20th century had the greatest rate of ocean level rise, that fact doesn't help your religious arguments
I was under the impression that speakers of Na-Dene languages were believed to be from a distinct and separate migration that occured after the other migrations.
I find it odd that the article did not touch on the Na-Dene, given how widely believed that there is something distinct with them.
This ice doesn't normally melt between Ice Ages! Get it?! Actually, the way you are using the term, the recent ebb and flow of glaciers in the last few hundred thousand years are all part of a single true ice age (we're in one now because of landed ice existing). Over the larger timescale of true ice ages there are periods of time when *no* landed ice exists. Therefore your statement is absurd and unscientific, the ice DOES all melt between true ice ages.
"Well theoretically, under trinitarian doctrine Jesus IS God, and God sent Jesus down to die. Therefore God did kill Himself."
Actually since all three of the "trinity" are spirit in nature, wouldn't it just be the body that was sacrificed? "fear him who can kill body AND spirit?"
Not to mention that he sent him down to be a sacrifice.
We ALL know that scientific conclusions supported by consensus are beyond reproach, and this... Clovis Denier... should be run out of the scientific community in disgrace!
"a consensus became so established that dissenters felt uneasy challenging it."
Good thing our scientists have grown beyond such close-mindedness!
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
First it doesn't allow for multiple migrations from the same Asia population and it doesn't take into account the possibility of extinct migrations. It's possible several migrations failed and all immigrants died whether from starvation or even being wiped out by future migrations like in New Zealand.
Even the IPCC report correctly state that the peak temperature during the last interglacial was significantly higher than present temperatures. (It blames a difference in orbital factors, which is unfounded.) There is nothing climatic that is outside the normas at all, certainly not temperature. The only thing that is outside the norms is CO2 concentration.
Yeah, I misspoke. I started out by simply saying 'norms' which is what I meant, but yeah, I followed up by talking about 'warmer', and then followed that up by talking about how we were way beyond the peak. Chalk it up to bad re-editing, so that the statement about far far beyond the peak followed the statement about warmer, instead of the statement about norms.
Thanks for correcting that. I didn't mean to say the world was warmer now that it had ever been.
The Book of Mormon isn't clear on which direction the ships came from, but the most widely-believed theories are that the earlier migration was from the East (Europe/Africa) while the later one was from the West (India/Asia), both by boats. Also, it doesn't "blow all sorts of holes in their religion", it merely contradicts one of the beliefs.
Why is it that it's always assumed that they crossed via a land bridge? Just because there was a ice age then?
This is what drives me farking insane about some 'scientific' research. THE ASSUMPTIONS MADE ARE REPRESENTED AS FACT!
If you don't know how they got here.. because there is NO way to know.. than SAY SO or don't say anything @ all. Just state what you have learned.
Just because something has been repeated often enough does NOT MAKE IT TRUE.
[/rant]
There I feel better.That was just one small population, not all "native" Americans. IIRC, that group eventually was killed off, as well.
People are bitching about global warming then because they want to see another ice age?
I rather enjoy short, mild winters and warm summers. You've pretty much convinced me NOT to worry about global warming, cause it's good for us!
If "normal" is having long-term periods of global freezing, then to hell with what is "normal"! It's a lovely day out! Let's keep it that way.
Of course, all of this is predicated on the unlikely event that you're assertion is correct.
What on earth have you been smoking? Look here. Sea level has been pretty static for a long time. Now it is on the way up again. Just to put current rises in perspective, the steepest part of the rise in that graph comes out to about 15 mm per year. Whereas recent sea level rises show an increase of about 20 mm per year.
Bitter and proud of it.
We are not in a warming period between ice ages. We are in a warm period within an age ice. Ice ages last a long time, and consists of long periods of glaciation punctuated by brief warm periods, like the one we're in now. The current ice age started in the Pleistocene epoch, and includes the entire Holocene thus far.
Current global temperatures and CO2 levels are abnormal within the current ice age, but not at all extreme in Earth's history. CO2 levels in the Silurian period were 6-10 times as high as they are now, and temperatures were a bit warmer, but not extreme.
The mechanisms which regulate global CO2 levels are simply not well understood, except perhaps for the largest, longest cycle. In this cycle, CO2 levels are governed by rock weathering, trapping carbon in the lithosphere to be released eventually through gelological activity (mostly volcanic). The carbon in the lithosphere (including calcium carbonate marine sediments, not including fossil fuel deposits) accounts for over 99.5% of the Earth's carbon store. That's a long cycle, however, hundreds of millions of years.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
What the hell is wrong with you? "Religious arguments"? I don't know (or care) which of you two is right, but accusing your opponent of basing his argument on religious dogma (when there's no sign that is the case whatsoever) is just really weak and childish.
Yeah. Less like being killed, more like having your car torched. It's a nuisance, but you can get another one, and with good insurance you can have a courtesy car ready in as little as 36 hours...
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
The following is taken from the writings of LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith:
JOSEPH SMITH LOCATES CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK.
Perhaps this matter could rest at this point, but the question of the territory now embraced within the United States having been in possession of Nephites and Lamanites before the death of Mormon, carries some weight in the determining of this matter. In the light of revelation it is absurd for anyone to maintain that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess this northern land. While Zion's camp was marching on the way to Jackson County [Missouri], near the bank of the Illinois River [in Illinois] they came to a mound containing the skeleton of a man. The history of this incident is as follows:
"The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part--one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites."
HEBER C. KIMBALL TELLS OF DEATH OF ZELPH.
Elder Heber C. Kimball who was present recorded the following in his journal:
"While on our way we felt anxious to know who the person was who had been killed by that arrow. It was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph. This caused us to rejoice much, to think that God was so mindful of us as to show these things to his servant. Brother Joseph had inquired of the Lord, and it was made known in a vision."
ANCIENT CITY OF MANTI IN MISSOURI.
The following is also taken from the history of the travels of the Kirtland Camp:
"The camp passed through Huntsville, in Randolph County [Missouri], which has been appointed as one of the stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti, and pitched tents at Dark Creek, Salt Licks, seventeen miles. It was reported to the camp that one hundred and ten men had volunteered from Randolph and gone to Far West to settle difficulties."
The following account of the same event is taken from the daily journal of the Kirtland Camp, and was written by Samuel D. Tyler:
"September 25, 1838. We passed through Huntsville, Co, seat of Randolph Co, Pop. 450, and three miles further we bought 32 bu, of corn off one of the brethren who resides in this place. There are several of the brethren round about here and this is the ancient site of the City of Manti, which is spoken of in the Book of Mormon and this is appointed one of the Stakes of Zion, and it is in Randolph County, Missouri, three miles west of the county seat."
NEPHITE AND JAREDITE WARS IN WESTERN NEW YORK.
In the face of this evidence coming from the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, we cannot say that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess the territory of the United States and that the Hill Cumorah i
You can't seem to write a grammatically correct sentence. You try to get all "high and mighty" with your moronic, run-on sentence (three in one, no less!). "Hello pot. This is the kettle. You're black!"
Please either justify or qualify this claim. Are there not archaeological finds that document palm trees in Alaska, grasslands and wildlife under what is now Siberian permafrost, etc.? This seems to suggest that our warm peaks have in fact been much warmer than we are now.
In fact, this historic temperature plot shows that our current temperature, while on the high end, is actually well below the temperature peaks reached 130K years ago, 250K years ago, and 340K years ago.
So while there is clearly cause for concern, I submit that your emphatic assertions that we are in unexplored territory and the GP is mad for questioning this are sheer bunk.
CrispinThe Inuit peoples (aka Eskimos) are not represented in the study, and are generally considered to have different origins from the First Nations peoples. I wonder how their inclusion would have fit with the rest of the data.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
Well, that and this whole 100,000 year large ice age thing might have really started when the isthmus of Panama formed and prevented the ocean from getting even warmer at the equator than it does now. This extra warmth would have propagated away and moderated global temperatures. Since that warmth cannot accumulate, the cyclical changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun would cause lower dips in temperature allowing ice accumulations during the colder periods.
During the cretaceous, the Earth was likely 10 C warmer on average than it is now, with ocean surface temperatures up to 20 C higher, and there is no evidence that polar ice caps existed during the Cretaceous (note: this is not the same as saying that they didn't exist).
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
The "Topper Site" has radiocarbon dates to about 45,000 B.P. This indicates there were previous migrations. Over the course of 30,000 years, the genetic marker discussed in this study would have integrated itself into the entire population, regardless of when the root migration took place. I'm afraid the conclusions drawn by the researchers are not accurate, and do not reflect the latest archaeological data available.
Here is another link (on the fringe perhaps) of asian/polnesian migrations.
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page5.htm
There is some genetic evidence and cultural evidence a group Japanese 2000 years ago became/interbred with the Zuni...
The Zuni language has several unique traits from other native Americans -- Japanese traits
The Flying Spaghetti Monster used many pirate ships over many years to bring them all across! Just because he touched their genes with his noodly appendage to make it appear that they were all genetically similar does not mean they all started that way.
That is all.
This study may well be entirely supported and its sample group representative. I have no expertise in this matter at all.
That disclaimer aside, there is a chance that this study's base assumption belies a fatal flaw. The exact percentage of Indigenous peoples to the Americas that survived the epidemics unleashed upon them by the Early Europeans is unknown. The percentage of the survivors may be lower than 10% of the general population after 1492 than existed before that time.
Testing a population after a **massive** cull brought on by an epidemic centuries ago is a very slippery genetic slope.
By way of a poor analogy, Cystic fibrosis is a mutation traceable to Scandanavia in the middle ages where the mutation - as horrible as its longterm effects may be - played a significant role in the carriers of the mutation having a genetic advantage to survive infection by bubonic plague. What means miserable death now meant life, then.
If (and that's a BIG if) the genetic marker they are tracing played a role in the survival of the current population from the epidemic unleashed upon them by the Europeans (believed to be primarily small pox) then what is being studied as a representative sample of an entire population may, in fact, be an isolated view of a trait that the survivors of the smallpox epidemic all shared. As a consequence, this result may have nothing to do with the vastly larger genetic base of the those who died and the migration patterns THEIR genes would have shown.
We simply don't know. I suppose that DNA samples from those frozen Mayan children (whose genes were not selected in any way by epidemiology) could be illuminating on this issue.
If you are, in fact, examining a control group, but believe that biased control group to be a representative sample of a much larger general population, your data may well be fatally flawed.
.Robert
Because the speed of light affects atomic decay and there is proof the speed of light has always been decreasing, radiocarbon dating of fossils and anything else is put into question. Not to say the values are wrong, but they aren't the final values because they don't take into account the fact that c has always been decaying which changes the carbon date results. Gary Setterfield has a ton of information on this topic on his site along with referenced research papers for those who think evolution (which needs millions/billions of years) is unquestionably correct. A timeline matching up traditional geological ages with the real ages of the universe is also on his site here which seems to be appropriate for this story. If anyone has some sites that refute these claims I'd like to read them.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
The campaign against run-on sentences seems to be almost an entirely modern thing. Perhaps the TV induced decline of attention spans is spreading even to Prose?
Try reading a book written one or two hundred - or even fifty - years ago, and you'll see how short and concise even the worst so called "run on sentence" is in comparison.
Using entirely the wrong word is a far worse sign of a lack of grammar than adhering to a certain specific and relatively modern style guideline.
"I suppose that DNA samples from those frozen Mayan children (whose genes were not selected in any way by epidemiology) could be illuminating on this issue."
Looks like I was wrong about that part. Those Incan (not Mayan) children were sacrificed in the early 1500s, and do not appear to predate 1492. In fact, they may well have been sacrificed BECAUSE they were healthy at a time when the smallpox virus was otherwise ravaging their people. See link here: http://www.bookofjoe.com/2007/09/la-doncella-fro.html
Unless their DNA can be verified to pre-date Columbian contact, I don't think their DNA would reliably serve to shed any light upon this potential problem.
.Robert
And a further correction - the latent CF mutation quoted above protects against typhoid, not bubonic plague. When the CF mutation is no longer latent (roughly a 1 in 4 chance if both parents carry the gene) - you die. But the evolutionary strength of the latent mutation if you are in the 3 out of 4 people who simply are carriers is *very* real.
Accordingly, the problem presented by the epidemeology presented by smallpox appears to be a distinctly possible and very slippery genetic slope. Worse, there is no other human population group alive to compare the remaining indigenous peoples too in terms of smallpox resistance. By definition, the survivors don't appear that radically different from other populations - all of which also share the resistance.
We don't know if that's a shared genetic trait among the survivors - and it appears likely that we never will for sure.
.Robert
China's relations with other states in the 15th century was varied, and assimilation/domination of other cultures was definitely within their repertoire.
And hasn't changed, either: Taiwan, Tibet etc.
While many of those who've heard of Tibet know it was invaded by China, it's nice to see someone especially here on /. that knows Taiwan isn't Chinese. When Chang Kai Chek's Nationalist Army invaded Formosa, Taiwan to many, between 18,000 and 28,000 Formosans were massacred by the KMT who then subjugated another 20 million Formosans. A date with a lot of meaning to Formosans is 28 February 1947.
FalconShould there be a Law?
4. The origin of Columbus' maps (which he refers to having in his log books) is a matter of extensive debate. Some say they were nordic, some say Chinese. Lots of theories... but the charts did not survive history, and no one really knows.
I've heard of the Basque as originators of maps to the Americas as well.
FalconShould there be a Law?
China's fleets knew how to prevent scurvy. Did the Europeans of the day?
One way to prevent scurvy is by eating citrus fruit like oranges and despite both California and Florida growing a lot of oranges, oranges are native to Asia, China.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You do know that we got our idea of a Republic from the Iriquois Confederacy, right? Obviously, you didn't get very accurate or in depth "native American heritage".
I haven't ever heard that, but admittedly I don't know a whole lot about Native American heritage. I assumed that our idea of a Republic came from Greek, Roman, and European sources. What evidence is there that it stemmed directly from the Iroquois?
The idea of the form of government came from the Iroquois Confederacy however while the Iroquois also had liberty the liberty envisioned by the USA's Founding Fathers especially with Thomas Jefferson was grounded in the Age of Enlightenment in Europe.
FalconShould there be a Law?
He doesn't forget it, you just can't make money off the carbon trade if people think it is natural. It all has to be your fault, and there has to be something that can be done about it.
I don't make money either way but if Global Warming is true then it will be future generations that will have to pay for what we are causing now.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Yah. But more of a late breaking "Anglo/Welsh/Scottish/Irish/Germanic mutt in my case..." relative to the 1000 a.d'ers... :-)
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
me bad. In my defense it was a low caffeine count that induced the spelling difficulties, officer.
'Twill remember and do better next time.
The actual data, including -historical- data, disprove their hypothesis, however, their claims are politically correct. It appears that the first humans in the Americas were Melanesians, similar to the Australian Aborigenes, possibly as long as 40,000 years ago. The next major wave appear to have been Europeans (though probably more like the Tuareg, Basque, "black Irish" and Saami, than blonds or redheads. These were the Red Paint People, and also the Clovis culture. Then came a -series- of migrations from Siberia, normally along the seacoast by boat, and NOT over the Bering land bridge. The most recent major migrations were the Athabascan/Dineh/Na-Dineh, then then Inuit, who finally eliminated the Dorset -after- the Norwegians had lived in Greenland for a few hundred years. To this day, Inuit peoples move freely across the Bering Straits in kayaks. The prevelance of a gene marker simply means that the locals intermarried, which we already know from their oral histories. Further, the local populations are not genetically homogenous; the Cheyenne show a higher than average European component probably going back to the Clovis people. The Olmec heads may show Melanesian ancestery. The culture of the PNE is nearly identical to that of the Jomon peoples of ancient Japan and Korea (now known as the Ainu of Hokaido, which have heavily interbred with the later Japanese invaders) The anime movie Princess Mononoke illustrates this in an anime fashion. Peoples moved around a lot. The dirt or stone pyramid building/human sacrificing culture can be found from St. Louis, Missouri to the Peruvian coastal plains. The cities of the Wari and Inca closely resemble those of the Ainu and Peublo peoples. The lodge-towns (or as they are called in early European cultures, "hall"s such as Heorot's Hall in Beowulf) culture is found from Canada to the Amazon. We should take the locals seriously when they tell us their oral histories about coming from different places, including Europe, and about their migrations in North and South America.
I was part of a group discussion regarding education about 18 mos ago,
1 black
1 asian
1 white girl (from a poor W. VA coal mining community)
1 Puerto Rican
1 white male - me (a son of poor Italian immigrants who came over about 40 yrs ago)
we started talking about race and education and I quickly learned that being a white male can be a liability, no matter what is said. The interesting thing is that nobody else in the room except the other white girl understood that ALL of us felt "left out," "different" and excluded from the normal population. I can't say that I've EVER felt that I fit in - part of it is because of my upbringing and part of it is that most people I know don't think like I do about things. Anyhow, the white girl felt outside the "safe zone" because of her upbringing and coal-mining history. All of my examples of alienation or feelings of discomfort were met with the general attitude of "you have no idea, your white." This will continue for as long as we continue to group people together and use labels without actually listening to people.
I think that ALL of us have some inner voice wondering if we fit in. This should be understood before having any discussions. My pet peeve is quickly becoming using labels to group types of people.
It's amazing how many people who call themselves "Republicans" (yes, I did it) hear a couple of my questions about healthcare costs and quickly jump to the conclusion that I'm a "Democrat" and from that point on tune me out - no matter that I believe in lowering tax rates, shrinking gov't, and many other ideas that "Democrats" would use to call me a "Republican." The fact of the matter is that I'm an individual that believes in some of _these_ ideas and some of _those_ ideas. How I vote depends on who more closely aligns with the sum total of my ideas. I get lumped into a group of people called "Democrats" because I think it is outrageous to pay $18,000 to deliver a baby with NONE, ZERO, ZIP complications. God forbid you ask the question - How is the average American, earning $45k/yr, supposed to pay for a post-tax delivery of $18k? What, work for 6 mos to pay for 3 days in the hospital??? Something isn't right with the system.
Didn't mean to get political but that seems to be an area where labels get thrown around quickly.
The last I heard (early 90's) the linguists studying New World languages were postulating 3 major migrations.
I'd put "major" in quotes myself. The straight itself really isn't that much of a barrier to humans. The native people currently living on both sides ("Aleuts") are very closely related, and take their boats back and forth across the date line (or US/Russia border, if you prefer) all the time.
It doesn't seem like the non-overkill theories are so suppressed anymore. This looks like pretty mainstream coverage to me:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/stoneage/megafauna.html
I saw that show and it was thoughtful and nicely done, and naturally didn't conclude those species were hunted to extinction. People are just following the evidence and realizing that overkill just doesn't compute. It's just too bad a few anthropologists won't.
And I was wondering if they'd checked European DNA from the "old" races, like the "little dark people" of the British Isles, who predate the Celts. You might still find some in Wales, I dunno.
I don't recall ever hearing about "little dark people" before, so I Googled "little dark people" "british isles". Then I replaced "british isles" with wales, when I did I came across The Manx People and their Origins about the Manx on the Isle of Man. As I'm interested I'll have to go through the results. Thanks.
FalconShould there be a Law?
More information on Native Americans and genetics can be found in the article: What Do Molecular Genetic Studies Tell Us About the Peopling of the Americas?. I think the genetic data is still up in the air.
No prob, I'm nowhere near being an expert but I occasionally look into the Multi-regional vs Out of Africa debate.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Actually, the only reason the Wright Brothers are hailed as the first to achieve motorized flight is because their plane was only allowed on exhibition if they were claimed to be the first despite several reports of flights made months or years earlier. Are you suggesting that Columbus's claim is that tenuous?