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Couple Busted For Shining Laser At Helicopter
coondoggie sends us to another Network World piece, this one about a couple charged with shining a green laser into the cockpit of a police helicopter. The FBI and the US attorney's office charged the California couple under a federal statute. They could end up paying a $250,000 fine and doing 20 years of jail time. "The complaint states that on November 8, 2007, at about 10:55 p.m., a green laser beam illuminated the cockpit of a Kern County Sheriff's Department helicopter, which was flying at 500 feet during routine patrol in Bakersfield, California. When the light hit the cockpit, it disoriented the Kern County Sheriff's pilot, causing pain and discomfort in his eyes for a couple of hours, the FBI said in a statement."
It may seem excessive but as a pilot who's had some jerk shine a laser at me while I was on final I can say that I'm glad they caught them.
There's a lot that goes on when you're trying to land a plane and a small distraction can be disastrous.
Besides, it is a federal offense to do that kind of thing.
GREEN LASER OF DEATH (as far as I could tell from the report; they said a $50 laser from RadioShack).
So... don't buy one of these pens or you might shine it at a chopper at night by accident and then spend 20 years in the slammer or pay a quarter mil or whatevs. Though for forking over that much dough for a stupid laser pen to begin with, a $250,000 fine may ironically be appropriate.
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Green laser pointers are much more powerful and allow for the "trace" of the laser to be seen. They are very useful for star pointing, etc.
You don't want one shined in your eye though.
Especially when flying a helicopter.
These are generalisations but :
Presentation pointers are red, very low powered, you can't see the beam without some kind of mist, you can get them for under five pounds in the UK all over the place, normally smaller than a pen, but thicker.
Green lasers are more powerful, you can see the beam in clear conditions, they cost an awful lot more ( somewhere between 100 - 200), are much larger, closer to say, a couple of coke cans stood on end, and can cut through a polystyrene cup....
Or at least that was the case the last time I looked maybe a year ago, I just took the first google hit that caught my eye and unsurprisingly they've got smaller and cheaper now : http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a47/
heh, the thinkgeek page even specifically points out "Warning: Green lasers are very powerful. Pointing at aircraft may land you in jail. Without a Monopoly card to get you back out. Use it wisely."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I can't remember the website off the top of my head, but a few months back, I ordered a green laser pointer for about 20 bucks. It was the least powerful of the green lasers they had (5mW), it can't cut through anything. It's a normal pen size, similar to the one you linked on think geek. They had increasingly powerful ones, but the price differences were very small.
I use mine primarily to point things out while documenting buildings, and went with the weakest green laser just for a little bit more safety. It's still significantly brighter than any red laser pointer I've ever seen, plus human eyes are much more sensitive to green light than red, so it's really easy to see. I can see the beam itself at night, but not during the day. If I have just put fresh batteries in it, and shine it at a white projection screen, the spot is bright enough that it's unpleasant to look at.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Yeah I faced 90 days in jail and a 500$ fine for not having a rabies tag for my dog. I showed the judge proof that i vaccinated him after the ticket and the judge dismissed it.
Welcome to American law.
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No no no. It completely depends on the statute. There are plenty of laws that only require knowledge and there are even strict liability laws that do not require any knowledge of the illegal activity taking place. Violating them can land you in jail. Gross negligence can also land you in jail.
You got it backwards, except for lightsabers. X-wings, Y-wings, A-wings, and Corellian Corvettes have red lasers. TIEs and Star Destroyers have green lasers, as did the Death Star.
I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
Those lasers are powerful enough to show up (ie: a green line) when pointing out stars and constellations to your significant other or children.
I'm not really sure how a laser would bring down a plane though. Do you really think the pilots are up there doing dives and loops and such?
Once upon a time, making these distinctions in sentencing was left up to people who were supposed to do this kind of thinking in the process: judges. I suspect this sentence may be a product of "deterministic sentencing", a.k.a., removing human judgment from courts.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
I agree and I call shenanigans on the cops. Try and point a laser pointer at a stationary object that far away. You can't hold it still enough. Even if a helicopter was hovering in place, I'll bet that the victim pilot couldn't hold a beam on something as small as a helmet visor inside a cockpit from a quarter-mile away for anything longer than a fraction of a second. Wahhhhhhhh.....
Actually the helicopter was at 500 feet ALTITUDE. If it was directly over the laser, nobody would have seen the beam. So in reality, the helo was probably at least a half mile (slant range) from the laser. Given this, the beam was probably five or six feet wide - easy to get both aircrew at once.
For all the "oops, it was an accident" types, consider that anyone using a laser beam outside at night is doing it TO LOOK AT THINGS - you will NOT miss an airplane with its flashing beacons and strobe lights. This kind of thing is NOT an accident.
Also, it's very unlikely that the brief flash caused by crossing a stationary or wandering beam would have been a real problem, compared to several seconds of targeted exposure, during which the natural tendency is unfortunately to look AT the beam (and thus increase the risk). So it makes perfect sense to me to prosecute in this case.
--Brandon / Split Infinity Music
It was a GREEN laser, which puts out a lot more power than your standard red keychain ornament.
No, no, and... No!
A IIIa (now called 3R for the type of devices under consideration here) puts out less than 5mW. 5mW of green laser light doesn't magically contain more energy than 5mw of red laser light.
Humans perceive green light as much, much brighter because we have a higher sensitivity to it. But in terms of total power, 5mW equals 5mW equals 5mW.
That said, IIIB/3R can cause temporary eye damage, though it takes some effort to target it just in the right spot and for long enough (a quick random sweep across the eyes won't do it). But "disorientation" and "hours of discomfort", over 500ft away and through a window? No. Evil piggies just want to cry victim.
Um. . . no.
A 200mw green laser is no more / less powerful than it's red / blue / infrared counterparts
of the same power level. If the couple were truly evil, they would have used an infrared
lab laser with an output of 5-15 Watts. The officer wouldn't even know what happened until
his eyes 'popped'. Infrared is actually more dangerous because of the lack of the blink
factor. Shine a bright light in your eyes and you'll close them / turn away to deal with
it. Infrared you won't even realize you're in danger until it's too late.
A green laser appears to be more powerful because the human eye can see that wavelength a
lot better than we do with the red end of the spectrum. So while it LOOKS brighter,
200mw is still 200mw any way you slice it, thus the green lasers are no more powerful than
any others. ( Based solely on color / wavelength )
I've owned one of these lasers for a little over two years now. It is nothing short of amazing to hold in your hand and press the button on what is nothing more than a pen sized laser pointer that will illuminate an object over 40 miles away. When you first take hold of one of these at night, the desire to point out any and every object you can see with your naked eye is overwhelming. It takes a better man than I am to resist that temptation. Then if you have the opportunity to illuminate a moving object? It is a very natural desire, I've felt it. Its like seeing a car accident and avoiding the temptation to even look. It is easy to criticize.
When my wife took hold of the laser, we were driving in the car in SoCal and she illuminated a mansion up on a hill and exclaimed "This thing is AWESOME!" which was one of the only times in memory she has shown avid approval of any of my "toys". Then she said "I can see why people want to shine this at flying objects."
If you illuminate any of the reflective street signs with the laser, it is amazingly impressive. The entire sign, regardless of size, illuminates so blindingly bright that you cannot look at it. Do this at a street sign over a freeway and you could easily cause an accident.
To avoid the temptation not to play with one of these is too great. I sympathize with this couple completely.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
As some of you have pointed out, the divergence of the laser should be taken into account, however, these green lasers operate at a wavelength that the human eye is particularly sensitive to. The eye does not have a flat response to the visible spectrum as one might think. The green hues are the ones that the eye is most sensitive to, as such a little bit of green light will seem disproportionately brighter than the same fluence of, say, red light. As for blocking these green wavelenghts, do you really want to be flying around in a vehicle that can not see anything green (i.e. building lights, other aircraft light, etc.)?
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
I managed to acquire a 50mw pen sized green laser on eBay quite easily. The people in question could have done the same. My laser can do interesting things to objects about a mile away. At 500 feet, I can easily hit a windshield. Some types of glass and plastic react in an interesting way to my laser, they turn totally green and almost opaque. If this were the case, the entire cockpit would have been flooded with a bright green light. If I were the pilot, it would have scared the crap out of me, and might very well have hurt my eyes a lot, since I can't just shut them, because I'm flying a helicopter and I'm having trouble seeing through the green windshield. Yeah, these people who used the laser on an unsuspecting pilot did a very bad thing, a federal offense, and should be hung out to dry for it. I recognize the danger of the device I own and would never even accidentally shine it near someone's face, nor would I ever let anyone else use it that way.
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Psyclo, the dark night.
Mike, the computer geek.
"The helicopter was at 500 feet, so the distance from laser to cockpit was at least 500 ft, and probably more than 1000 considering the angle needed to enter the cockpit rather than bounce off the bottom of the helicopter."
Not necessarily. When the article says they were flying at 500 ft, it is most likely quoting the official report which came from the pilot. To a pilot, "flying at 500 ft" means flying at 500 ft above sea level (altimeters measure altitude using barometric pressure, which indicates altitude above sea level, and therefore can't possibly know where the actual ground is). So, if, for example, ground level was actually at 200 ft above sea level, the helicopter would only be 300 ft above the ground. This is probably not an unrealistic altitude for a patrolling police helicopter.
It's also not necessary to shine it at much of an angle if the helicopter was banking in a turn and the pilot was looking into the turn, as a pilot might logically do when turning, and also looking down, which a police pilot on patrol might logically do.
The article also doesn't state that it's a 5mW laser, just that it's a hand-held green laser. There are much more powerful hand-held green lasers than 5mW available.
The article does not give enough information to write this off as "more green-laser hysteria".
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
actually just the opposite. You can see the beam because it is absorbed more than the red one ... and then retransmitted, which has the effect of scattering the beam.
The sun shines white, that's true. It appears yellow because the blue is scattered. By contrast the entire remainder of the sky appears blue (because the blue rays, while coming from the sun, have been scattered by absorption and re-transmission).
What an electron absorbs in energy, it will retransmit some time later.
It looks like it's just a local law here in New York City so I guess it's not everywhere. Sorry, my mistake.
As a helicopter pilot and an aviation safety officer (probably one of the few on /.) I can tell you that the danger to the pilots and the aircraft cannot be overstated. Laser illumination from the ground can result in full or partial blindness, and it can be either temporary or permanent. If you get blinded while you're flying a helicopter, you and everybody on the bird are gonna die. No ifs, ands, or buts about it--you will be a smoking hole in a field somewhere, and if you come down in civilization you'll take folks on the ground with you. I'm sorry these folks didn't know about the law, but "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and I sincerely believe this to be a completely justified law.
I am a laser engineer at work (trained to work with dangerous high power class IV lasers) and can tell you that there are limitations to this approach.
The filter material at most laser wavelengths would not be clear. My laser safety goggles for 532nm green lasers are dark amber, 660nm red laser goggles are blue. Not practical for navigating aircraft around obstacles.
There is no single filter that is effective for all wavelengths of lasers (green, red, co2, etc).
Also the optical density for a single filter - the blocking capability of the filter - is not the same level across different wavelengths. And optical laser filters do not block the laser beam, they reduce the energy level. Prolonged exposure even with laser safety goggles will still cause eye injury; the object of the goggles is to reduce the energy long enough to account for the reflex time of turning your eyes away from a laser beam and thus avoiding eye injury. This does little good in a cockpit when someone maliciously aims a laser beam at an aircraft.
There is also the hazard of refracted and reflected beam energy. The beam will be refracted as it strikes the cockpit glass and its energy may or may not be attenuated, and there is also the hazard of beam reflections off of objects in the cockpit. The danger of stray beams in this condition is very real and it may be near impossible - while affixed to the pilot seat via seat belt - to avoid exposure to any laser beam. There is also the remote possibility of the refraction of the glass having a focusing effect on the laser beam and exposing the pilot to higher w/cm^2 laser energy at the wrong place.
I have never experienced a laser eye injury, but have been told in laser safety training that they are extremely painful.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
Actually, there are a lot of green lasers out there that are exceeding the 5mW limit. They are not at all hard to get. You can get red ones, too, but the greenies are far more popular.
Even the "legal" ones can be easily modified by eliminating the IR filter. They put out considerably more power that way, but the IR diverges so quickly it's really only a hazard for those nearby.
My greenie cuts thin plastic, pops balloons, and ruins digital cameras. Fun stuff.
*sigh* Try RTFAing for a change... the helicopter pilot and observer traced the visible-light beam (by the backscatter) back to the house of the defendants. A subsequent search (with warrant) found the green laser pointer. The couple then admitted that they were using it on the night in question.
About the only question left for the court is did the couple shine it at the helicopter directly (in which case it was an intentional attack), or were they shining it in the sky and were just careless.
Yeah, if you used it in an open area, the cops might have more problems. OTH, it was a police helicopter, which are used to chase down suspects all the time.
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The Supremes issued a 5-4 ruling back in 2005 that sentencing guidelines are not mandatory, they are advisory only. IANAL either, but here's a link from the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers:
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/mediasources/20050113b
And just this month a 7-2 ruling in the Minbrough and Gall cases, related to crack cocaine sentencing guidelines, again they are advisory only, not mandatory. Here's a link from the LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-sentencing16dec16,0,1084405.story?coll=la-opinion-center
What you are neglecting is the retina absorption of laser radiation, which varies with wavelength. The human eye absorbs the most light energy in the 500-700nm wavelength range, which happens to be where green (532nm) and red (660nm) fall within. In the same amount of time, 5mW of 532nm laser energy will do more eye damage than 5mW of ultraviolet 400nm laser energy.
Incorrect. Any laser higher than class 1M can cause permanent eye damage. Laser eye injuries are extremely painful even at class II 1mW or lower levels. Class IIIR (formerly IIIa) lasers can produce no more than 5mW, but class IIIB lasers can produce as much as 500mW and can cause skin damage.
Lasers are not a controlled substance. One could purchase a class IIIB green laser that puts out 500mW of laser energy and really do damage to a pilot from the ground. If you think these people are exaggerating about their suffering, you are dead wrong.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
Absolutely positively not true. Laser sources that emit a non-visible beam fall in class IIIR, class IIIB or class IV which are the worst eye hazards regardless of power. ANSI Z136.1 specifies that non-visible class IIIR or higher laser beams must be enclosed to prevent laser radiation exposure to non-trained personnel.
I work around exposed class IV CO2 10600nm laser beams capable of putting out 100 watts (that's watts, not mW) of power. The beam is invisible to the human eye yet it is capable of cutting metal. "Not dangerous at all" is a serious understatement.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
I know you are just joking, but it is possible to filter out all available wavelengths and still maintain visibility.
... costs are at issue here, probably, since those laser safety goggles themselves cost an arm and a leg. But the reality is not as bleak as you humorously made it out to be.
First of all, there are not "at least three colors". Very few laser diodes (cheap ones, especially) lase at wavelengths less than 600 nm. There are green lasers at 532 nm (so here's one color to block), and I suppose apparently there are blue laser pointers now. But since those things cost an arm and a leg, it doesn't need to be blocked. Most red lasers lase at something close to He-Ne wavelengths (633 nm) or above (around 650 nm or so).
So, to effectively block all commonly available laser wavelengths, you just need a coating to block 532 nm, and another to block the range of 620 - 680 nm, and guess what---except for these specific wavelengths, it's no worse than wearing two sunglasses---actually better; you'd know if you've seen laser safety goggles; those things are pretty transparent (I've worn three on top of one another and still see most everything, except for the three wavelengths of the lasers I was working with at the time).
And as far as lost visibility goes, well, at daytime it doesn't really matter (it might actually help, by reducing glare or something). At nighttime, we are pretty insensitive to red anyway (rods are not too sensitive to red), so really, it's more like just wearing the green laser laser safety goggle. I don't know about you, but I'd feel pretty comfortable flying around (if I knew how, of course) wearing the green laser safety goggle.
Of course
Exactly.
When I was a kid, in the boy scouts, we used to play lightsabers with our flashlights. On nights when the fog's rolled in early here in SF, I've seen kids playing lightsabers with the red laser pointers that you gan get for $5 at just about any drug store. I've no doubt that as soon as the green ones get down to about $20 or so, kids are going to be just thrilled that they can be Luke Skywalker now instead of Darth Vader.
WTF are the pigs going to do then? Lock up every kid who plays Star Wars for twenty years of their lives???
Hell... I've been zapped in the face with green lasers before. I used to go out to clubs and raves all the time, and once and a while, the laser guy aims his gear a little low. Yes it's annoying and unpleasant. But you blink, turn away, and get over it. Seeking to harm the laser guy would be just petty, stupid, and priggish. But then, this *is* the police we're talking about here. They really do need to just pull the gigantic stick out of their collective ass.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
Pain I'm skeptical of too, and I bow to your superior experience in this regard, but even temporarily dazzling a pilot over a city is serious.
Having had afterimages for several minutes after being exposed to a specular reflection of a 5mW green laser in office-lit conditions (reflected from a whiteboard), I can sympathize.
It doesn't say the power of the beam - you can quite easily pick up green laser pointers on eBay that are advertised as 100mW or more (here in the UK, at least). Also, the copter is likely to be quite low, and you'd only want to try this at night so you could see the dot. The pilot's pupils would be dilated due to the darkness, so I can imagine quite a severe dazzling effect.
Sean Ellis
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