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How and Why Knots Spontaneously Form

palegray.net writes "Scientists believe they have found the underlying reasons why knots are so common in the universe. This research helps us understand how knotty arrangements in various molecules lead to biological patterns, as in certain proteins. The article also provides a look at the field of topology, and how it relates to knots."

23 of 145 comments (clear)

  1. Hair by Verteiron · · Score: 5, Funny

    But can they explain why knots form in your hair after laying still for as little as an hour? My wife blames gnomes, and I'm inclined to agree with her.

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    1. Re:Hair by nuclearpenguins · · Score: 5, Funny

      Gnomes? I'm afraid knot.

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      Anonymous Coward: "This is slashdot. Accuracy is second class citizen here, unlike King Bias."
    2. Re:Hair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      It can't be gnomes, it has to be KDEs.

    3. Re:Hair by dbolger · · Score: 5, Funny

      A more relevant example would be how you can set up a PC for the first time, and have all the cables carefully arranged so that there is no crossing over or tangling, and yet when you come back six months later, to add a new device or to swap out a cable, every single one of them is wrapped tightly around the others to such an extent that you can't understand how it could come about without somebody doing it intentionally.

    4. Re:Hair by SetupWeasel · · Score: 4, Funny

      I like how a post about a woman's hair gets no moderation, but a reply about computer wires with exactly the same point gets +5.

      Since this is Slashdot, all must be right with the universe.

    5. Re:Hair by sound+vision · · Score: 5, Funny

      Gnome has it's own version of knot, it's just called gnot.

    6. Re:Hair by orasio · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the computer reference has relevance to the Slashdot crowd (I mean, they've actually seen this phenomenon happen with cables) but a woman's hair? How often does a basement dweller get close enough to a woman to notice that her hair is tangled or not? Ten years have passed. We finally moved out of our parents basement. We grew old. People who are young now are no longer the nerds we were back in the day. Add to that the fact that nerds are much more attractive for the ladies right now, and you will see that most of us have seen a girl from up close, and even touched them with their consent.

      It was a nice joke, to say that slashdot people were virgins, but sadly that joke died. Learn to live with it. there are a lot of nerds still here, but B.O. and problems with girls does not define us anymore. In my case, for example, you could make fun of GNU evangelism or something like that, maybe.
    7. Re:Hair by Silver+Gryphon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Gnomes? I'm a frayed knot.
      There, fixed that for ya.
  2. All knotted up for next year. by theleoandtherat · · Score: 5, Funny

    Any tip about packing christmas lights?

    1. Re:All knotted up for next year. by SimonTheSoundMan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Google 'reverse coil' or 'overhand coil'. Wires tangle because people do not know how to coil them up correctly.

    2. Re:All knotted up for next year. by gbutler69 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've found that rolling them up in a ball, like one would yarn, works absolutely perfectly. It never tangles. It's compact. It's easy. It seems a little counter-intuitive, but, if you think about it, why do women who knit or crotchet wrap their yarn in balls? Because it works!

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    3. Re:All knotted up for next year. by f_raze13 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Umm... yeah, this actually is a real link. Way to go, mods.

      It links to http://www.realsimple.com/realsimple/package/0,21861,1683690-1133623-3,00.html.

  3. Do we really need an answer? by pla · · Score: 5, Funny

    This research helps us understand how knotty arrangements in various molecules lead to biological patterns, as in certain proteins.

    Because He reached out his noodly appendage and put the spark of life in our universe.


    "And the earth was without form, and void; and straightness was upon the face of the pan. And His Noodly Appendage moved upon the face of the sauce.

    And FSM said, Let there be knots: and there were knots.

    And FSM saw the knots, that they were good: and FSM divided the knots from the straightness as happens when you boil short and long pasta at the same time.

    And FSM called the knots Spaghetti, and the straightness he called Ziti. And the strands and tubes were the first course."


    Duh?

  4. Wrap them by Chmcginn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Get a long sheet (about 50 cm x 2-5 meters, depending on the number of lights.) Starting at one end, wrap it around the short end of the rectangle, then fold it over about 10 cm. Repeat until all your lights are in a big cigar tube.

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    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
  5. Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Prototerm · · Score: 5, Funny

    That explains why knots spontaneously form in wires and cables when you stick them in a box, but what about the way knots spontaneously come undone in your shoe laces? Perhaps in an alternate universe, shoe laces spontaneously knot themselves, and wires and cables untangle in storage. Of course, with that sort of altered physics, Homer Simpson would probably be the President of the United States.

    Oh, wait.

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    1. Re:Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What gets me is how knots form when both ends of the cable are plugged into something. And they form in such a way that there's no way to untangle it without unplugging everything and painstakingly unpicking it from the mess.

    2. Re:Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Shoelaces come undone due to the type of knot being used. There is an entire site http://www.shoeknots.com/ devoted to this, and another site http://shoelaceknot.com/shoelace/index.htm with exhaustive details on shoelaces in general.

      [disclaimer: I maintain one of the sites]

  6. Fishing line by Eudial · · Score: 3, Funny

    Fishing line is epic.

    It can be straight, but the moment it comes into contact with anything, or disappears outside of the line of view, or for no apparent reason at all, it's a virtual loom of spontaneous knots.

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  7. Loose ends cause most of the trouble... by jddj · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a kayaker, I'm familiar with a rescue tool called a throw bag. Apparently, throw bags were developed for the maritime industry, then downsized for kayakers.

    The theory is quite simple, but it's amazing to watch how well it works:

    • Tie a rope through a hole in the bottom of a bag.
    • Stuff the bag with the rope, leaving the tail end of the rope sticking out of the top.
    • Grab the tail end of the rope and throw the bag towards the person who needs the rope.
    • Watch as the rope magically pays out of the bag, completely free of knots or tangles.
    • Don't get so awed by the rope coming out untangled that you let go of the end...

    I've watched these bags work time and time again, amazed that with the rope just stuffed into the bag, they work reliably. I've used store-bought bags and ones I've made myself and have never seen the rope tangle.

    I realize that without loose ends proper knots can't form, but with a throw bag, you don't even get close to tangles!

  8. Knot-unknot asymmetry by SpinyNorman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Surely the fundamental reason why knots form (or rather why they persist/accumulate)is because of the inherent assymmetry of them formign/unforming.

    A loose end in a jumble of coils, if jiggled around, is almost bound at some point to pass though a coil and form a potential knot, but a knot once formed is by no means destined to become unknotted, especially once additional knots form on the loose end thereby securing earlier knots.

    If the chance of becoming knotted is less than the chance of becoming unknotted, then there's going to be a trend towards becoming increasingly knotted (to some limit where the accumulated knots limit mobility of the mass).

    It seems there may also be a ratcheting effect once a loose knot forms - the knot/loop being bulky will more likely catch on the surrounding mass then the single stands leading into it, so that if the loose ends get tugged by the jiggling of the surrounding mass then the knot will tighten.

    But there again I'm just a dude who uses string rather than a high powered topologist getting paid to research string, so what do I know?!

  9. So this is where string theory leads us? by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Funny

    How hard is this? The Universe is a box full of string. Knots form. Some make pretty big knots.

    Eventually, when the chimps write a decent but unpopular novel, balls of string form. Many balls. In time, these seem to have gathered and caused all sorts of interesting phenomenae, like stars, Western clothing, and Jessica Alba.

    Unfortunately, this can only end one of two ways...

    1- The string gets untangled. All devolves into a box of string again. Knots form again.

    2- All this gets emptied into another box. Sold at a yard sale. Who knows what happens with the new owner... Actually, even if the string gets untangled, it ends up in a yard sale.

    Physics. It's really all about yard sales.

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    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  10. Hands-on knot theory by clawsoon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a sysadmin who has spent days untangling hundreds of tangled cables from the backs of too-crowded racks - hundreds of A/V lines criss-crossed by dozens of network lines criss-crossed by power cords - I've had some time to think about practical knot theory. I've established two primary hypotheses:

    1. Placing cables is difficult because you are not just defining the position of that cable, you are also defining the position of every other cable in relation to that cable. As the number of cables rises, the complexity increases combinatorially. (Or exponentially. Or something. I faked my way through those math classes.)

    2. There are many more ways for cables to be tangled than to be untangled, so statistically, tangling is overwhelmingly likely. It's like entropy that way: There are many more ways for particles to move in different directions than there are ways for particles to move in the same direction, so it takes special effort or special circumstances to get them all to line up.

    1. Re:Hands-on knot theory by poopdeville · · Score: 3, Interesting

      2. There are many more ways for cables to be tangled than to be untangled, so statistically, tangling is overwhelmingly likely. It's like entropy that way: There are many more ways for particles to move in different directions than there are ways for particles to move in the same direction, so it takes special effort or special circumstances to get them all to line up.

      You need to make the notion of counting ways to be tangled and untangled more precise. In any case, the problem with real cables is that most cable runs have a half turn in them. But where the turn happens varies. Moreover, the turn introduces distortion in the cable at the turn since it isn't under tension. Heating and cooling, and Type I and II Reidemeister moves caused by the distortion moving do the rest.

      But note that these kinds of knots are trivial to untangle if you keep the cables connected, and much harder if you don't, since Type I and II Reidemeister moves can't produce knots, just tangles.

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