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How and Why Knots Spontaneously Form

palegray.net writes "Scientists believe they have found the underlying reasons why knots are so common in the universe. This research helps us understand how knotty arrangements in various molecules lead to biological patterns, as in certain proteins. The article also provides a look at the field of topology, and how it relates to knots."

37 of 145 comments (clear)

  1. Hair by Verteiron · · Score: 5, Funny

    But can they explain why knots form in your hair after laying still for as little as an hour? My wife blames gnomes, and I'm inclined to agree with her.

    --
    End of lesson. You may press the button.
    1. Re:Hair by nuclearpenguins · · Score: 5, Funny

      Gnomes? I'm afraid knot.

      --
      Anonymous Coward: "This is slashdot. Accuracy is second class citizen here, unlike King Bias."
    2. Re:Hair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      It can't be gnomes, it has to be KDEs.

    3. Re:Hair by dbolger · · Score: 5, Funny

      A more relevant example would be how you can set up a PC for the first time, and have all the cables carefully arranged so that there is no crossing over or tangling, and yet when you come back six months later, to add a new device or to swap out a cable, every single one of them is wrapped tightly around the others to such an extent that you can't understand how it could come about without somebody doing it intentionally.

    4. Re:Hair by captain_dope_pants · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I used to be a fisherman for a living. Miles and miles of nets, rope etc. When the "knot gnomes" had their way with that lot it was a nightmare!
      There are also undersea variants of the "gnot knome". You go to haul your nets after a couple of days and they're gnotted all to hell.

      --
      while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();
    5. Re:Hair by SetupWeasel · · Score: 4, Funny

      I like how a post about a woman's hair gets no moderation, but a reply about computer wires with exactly the same point gets +5.

      Since this is Slashdot, all must be right with the universe.

    6. Re:Hair by sound+vision · · Score: 5, Funny

      Gnome has it's own version of knot, it's just called gnot.

    7. Re:Hair by orasio · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the computer reference has relevance to the Slashdot crowd (I mean, they've actually seen this phenomenon happen with cables) but a woman's hair? How often does a basement dweller get close enough to a woman to notice that her hair is tangled or not? Ten years have passed. We finally moved out of our parents basement. We grew old. People who are young now are no longer the nerds we were back in the day. Add to that the fact that nerds are much more attractive for the ladies right now, and you will see that most of us have seen a girl from up close, and even touched them with their consent.

      It was a nice joke, to say that slashdot people were virgins, but sadly that joke died. Learn to live with it. there are a lot of nerds still here, but B.O. and problems with girls does not define us anymore. In my case, for example, you could make fun of GNU evangelism or something like that, maybe.
    8. Re:Hair by Silver+Gryphon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Gnomes? I'm a frayed knot.
      There, fixed that for ya.
    9. Re:Hair by Lavene · · Score: 2

      I like how a post about a woman's hair gets no moderation, but a reply about computer wires with exactly the same point gets +5.

      Since this is Slashdot, all must be right with the universe. Wow! I AM a woman... with long hair, and I have modpoints. And it didn't occour to me to mod the post about hair but I wanted to mod the one about wires! (It was already at +5 though, which is good really since I'm kinda blond too and constantly mod first and post later throwing my points down the drain...)

  2. Slashdotted article text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.sciencenews.org.nyud.net:8090/articles/20071222/bob11.asp

    Tied Up in Knots
    Anything that can tangle up, will, including DNA

    Davide Castelvecchi

    Knotted threads secure buttons to shirts. Knots in ropes attach boats to piers. You can find knots in shoestrings, ties, ribbons, and bows. But even without Boy Scouts or sailors, knots would be everywhere.

    Call it Murphy's Law of knots: If something can get tangled up, it will. "Anything that's long and flexible seems to somehow end up knotted," says Andrew Belmonte, an applied mathematician at Pennsylvania State University in University Park. Belmonte has plenty of alarming anecdotal evidence. "It certainly happens in my house, with the cords of the venetian blind." But the knot scourge is a global one, as anyone who owns a desktop computer can confirm after peeking at the mess of connection cables and power cords behind the desk.

    Now, scientists think they may have found out how and why things find their way into knotty arrangements. By tumbling a string of rope inside a box, biophysicists Dorian Raymer and Douglas Smith have discovered that knots--even complex knots--form surprisingly fast and often. The string first coils up, and then its free ends swivel around the other coils, tracing a random path among them. That essentially makes the coils into a braid, producing knots, the scientists say.

    The results' relevance may go well beyond explaining the epidemic of tangled venetian blind cords. That's because spontaneous knots seem to be prevalent in nature, especially in biological molecules. For example, knottiness may be crucial to the workings of certain proteins (see "Knots in Proteins"). And knots can randomly form in DNA, hampering duplication or gene expression--so much so that living cells deploy special knot-chopping enzymes.

    Raymer's interest in knots began as an answer waiting for a question. Two years ago, he was an undergraduate student working in Smith's lab at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD). Raymer fancied taking a class about the abstract theory of knots, offered by UCSD's math department. Smith told him that he should take it only if he could find a practical use for it--some kind of knot experiment.

    Raymer never took the class, but he and Smith did come up with a simple idea for an experiment. They put a string in a cubic container the size of a box of tissue. By tumbling the box 10 times "like a laundry dryer," as Raymer puts it, the researchers hoped to observe knots forming spontaneously on occasion. They didn't have to wait for long: Knots formed right away. "The first couple of times, it was pretty amazing," Raymer says.

    The researchers repeated the procedure more than 3,000 times, and knots formed about every other time. Longer strings, or more-flexible strings, tended to knot more often.

    The researchers took pictures, planning to gather precise statistics of the types of knots that were forming. Raymer soon realized that, to make sense of the mess, he'd need to teach himself the mathematics of knots after all.

    Ready-made tools

    The theory of knots began in earnest in the 1860s, under the stimulus of the British physicist William Thomson, later known as Lord Kelvin. Kelvin suggested that atoms of different elements were really different kinds of knotted vortices in the ether. So to lay the foundations of chemistry, he believed, it was imperative to classify knots. Ultimately, physicists discovered that the ether didn't exist. But mathematicians took an interest in knots for knots' sake, as part of the young branch of mathematics called topology.

    Topology studies shapes. Specifically, it studies shapes' properties that are not affected by stretching, moving, twisting, or pulling--anything that doesn't break up the object or fuse some of its parts. The proverbial example is that, to a topologist, a coffee mug is the same as a doughnut. In your imagination,

  3. All knotted up for next year. by theleoandtherat · · Score: 5, Funny

    Any tip about packing christmas lights?

    1. Re:All knotted up for next year. by SimonTheSoundMan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Google 'reverse coil' or 'overhand coil'. Wires tangle because people do not know how to coil them up correctly.

    2. Re:All knotted up for next year. by gbutler69 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've found that rolling them up in a ball, like one would yarn, works absolutely perfectly. It never tangles. It's compact. It's easy. It seems a little counter-intuitive, but, if you think about it, why do women who knit or crotchet wrap their yarn in balls? Because it works!

      --
      Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
    3. Re:All knotted up for next year. by vagnerr · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      -- Vagnerr - (www.vagnerr.com) Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    4. Re:All knotted up for next year. by f_raze13 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Umm... yeah, this actually is a real link. Way to go, mods.

      It links to http://www.realsimple.com/realsimple/package/0,21861,1683690-1133623-3,00.html.

    5. Re:All knotted up for next year. by Leebert · · Score: 2, Informative

      Try this, it should get you started:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over/under_cable_coiling

      (having myself wrapped probably hundreds of miles of cable with this technique.)

    6. Re:All knotted up for next year. by hazem · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I worked for a summer with a flooring contractor before going to basic training in the army. They did a cool technique with their extension cords where they basically made a long loose crochet chain out of them. A 50 ft cord would end up about 10 feet long and then they'd toss them all in their big "contractor box".

      For some reason, cords that were already looped up like this didn't tend to knot up with each other. Which makes me wonder if there is a maximum knotty potential... straight un-knotted cords have a higher probability of knotting while ones that are already knotted will be less likely to. It seems I read something recently, maybe out of the "Book of Ignorance" (http://www.amazon.com/Book-General-Ignorance-John-Mitchinson/dp/0307394913), said that straight hair tends to get knotted more then curly hair.

      It's amazing to me that seemingly simple things end up yielding entire fields of math and science.

    7. Re:All knotted up for next year. by pwnies · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think what SimonTheSoundMan was trying to get at was something called "Over/under cable wrapping". It's a method of wrapping cables used mostly by sound guys that eliminates spin in the wires (which from my personal experience is the #1 reason why cables get all tangled about). You can check out the wikipedia article on it (albeit short) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over/under_cable_coiling , and a great tutorial for it here: http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/flipcoil/howto.html .
      In regards to Christmas lights though, this still may not work simply because of the nature of the wire layout and the obstacle the lights themselves create, but it's worth a shot. I wrap all my cables this way, and even in my box of 100+ cables, I almost never get any tangles (and when I do, they only take a few seconds to untangle).

  4. Do we really need an answer? by pla · · Score: 5, Funny

    This research helps us understand how knotty arrangements in various molecules lead to biological patterns, as in certain proteins.

    Because He reached out his noodly appendage and put the spark of life in our universe.


    "And the earth was without form, and void; and straightness was upon the face of the pan. And His Noodly Appendage moved upon the face of the sauce.

    And FSM said, Let there be knots: and there were knots.

    And FSM saw the knots, that they were good: and FSM divided the knots from the straightness as happens when you boil short and long pasta at the same time.

    And FSM called the knots Spaghetti, and the straightness he called Ziti. And the strands and tubes were the first course."


    Duh?

  5. Wrap them by Chmcginn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Get a long sheet (about 50 cm x 2-5 meters, depending on the number of lights.) Starting at one end, wrap it around the short end of the rectangle, then fold it over about 10 cm. Repeat until all your lights are in a big cigar tube.

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
  6. Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Prototerm · · Score: 5, Funny

    That explains why knots spontaneously form in wires and cables when you stick them in a box, but what about the way knots spontaneously come undone in your shoe laces? Perhaps in an alternate universe, shoe laces spontaneously knot themselves, and wires and cables untangle in storage. Of course, with that sort of altered physics, Homer Simpson would probably be the President of the United States.

    Oh, wait.

    --
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
    1. Re:Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Informative

      but what about the way knots spontaneously come undone in your shoe laces? That's often because they're in that case an unbalanced granny knot. :-)
      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    2. Re:Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What gets me is how knots form when both ends of the cable are plugged into something. And they form in such a way that there's no way to untangle it without unplugging everything and painstakingly unpicking it from the mess.

    3. Re:Yes, but what about shoe laces, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Shoelaces come undone due to the type of knot being used. There is an entire site http://www.shoeknots.com/ devoted to this, and another site http://shoelaceknot.com/shoelace/index.htm with exhaustive details on shoelaces in general.

      [disclaimer: I maintain one of the sites]

  7. Fishing line by Eudial · · Score: 3, Funny

    Fishing line is epic.

    It can be straight, but the moment it comes into contact with anything, or disappears outside of the line of view, or for no apparent reason at all, it's a virtual loom of spontaneous knots.

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    GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
  8. It's true, Bush does it. by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 2, Informative

    I heard he spits in your mouth as you sleep too.

    1. Re:It's true, Bush does it. by CarAnalogy · · Score: 2

      The guy who modded this informative probably wakes up with a foul taste in his mouth every morning.

      Oh, the joys of the /. moderation system :)

  9. Doesn't anybody know how to tie a knot? by CaptScarlet22 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Spongebob: Doesn't anybody know how to tie a knot? (lightning appears as well as the Flying Dutchman)

    Flying Dutchman: Did somebody say knot?

    Spongebob: (eyes grow large) I did.

    Flying Dutchman: So, you wanna tie knots, do ya? Well, do ya?

    Spongebob: Yes, please, Mr Flying Dutchman, sir.

    Flying Dutchman: Then you've come to the right flying ghost, kid. You're looking at the first place winner in the fancy knottin' contest for the last 3,000 years!

    Spongebob: Hooray! (floats up into the air and into a heart)

    Flying Dutchman: (grabs Spongebob) You're gonna have to not do that. And stop staring at me with them big old eyes! (Spongebob's eyes shrink) Now, stand back and watch me be knotty. (laughs and pulls out a rope) Haha! Behold! (rope is in pretzel shape) The pretzel knot!

    Spongebob: Ohh. (Flying Dutchman makes the rope into 2 diamonds)

    Flying Dutchman: The double-diamond knot! (holds the rope, now in the shape of a square, in front of Spongebob) The square knot! (rope slithers over and squeezes Spongebob) The constrictor. (Grabs Spongebob and pulls him apart revealing a knot that looks like intestines) The gut knot! (Flying Dutchman makes a knot in the shape of a pillow) The pillow knot. (turns the knot over where Spongebob is sleeping. Then he makes the knot into a butterfly) The butterfly knot.

    Spongebob: Ohh...

    Flying Dutchman: Wait! There's more. (Spongebob takes out a pen and paper and his glasses) The monkey chain! (shows the rope as a chain) The monkey's fist! (shows the rope into a ball) The monkey! (shows the rope as a monkey)

    Monkey: Ohh, ohh!

    Flying Dutchman: This one here's a loop knot, otherwise known as the 'poop loop'. (pulls the rope)

    Rope: Poooop!

    Spongebob: (laughs) Those are great, Mr Flying Dutchman, sir! Now can you show me how to tie my shoes?

    Flying Dutchman: (laughs) I don't know how to tie me shoes. I haven't worn shoes for over 5,000 years! (holds a sock with two blue stripes up) But sometimes I like to wear this little sock over me ghostly tail. (laughs as he flies off. Scene cuts to Spongebob crawling into his pineapple) No need to RTFA, I bet the Flying Duchman would know...we should ask him!!

    --
    It's left blank because I have nothing to say to you punks!
  10. Loose ends cause most of the trouble... by jddj · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a kayaker, I'm familiar with a rescue tool called a throw bag. Apparently, throw bags were developed for the maritime industry, then downsized for kayakers.

    The theory is quite simple, but it's amazing to watch how well it works:

    • Tie a rope through a hole in the bottom of a bag.
    • Stuff the bag with the rope, leaving the tail end of the rope sticking out of the top.
    • Grab the tail end of the rope and throw the bag towards the person who needs the rope.
    • Watch as the rope magically pays out of the bag, completely free of knots or tangles.
    • Don't get so awed by the rope coming out untangled that you let go of the end...

    I've watched these bags work time and time again, amazed that with the rope just stuffed into the bag, they work reliably. I've used store-bought bags and ones I've made myself and have never seen the rope tangle.

    I realize that without loose ends proper knots can't form, but with a throw bag, you don't even get close to tangles!

  11. Knot-unknot asymmetry by SpinyNorman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Surely the fundamental reason why knots form (or rather why they persist/accumulate)is because of the inherent assymmetry of them formign/unforming.

    A loose end in a jumble of coils, if jiggled around, is almost bound at some point to pass though a coil and form a potential knot, but a knot once formed is by no means destined to become unknotted, especially once additional knots form on the loose end thereby securing earlier knots.

    If the chance of becoming knotted is less than the chance of becoming unknotted, then there's going to be a trend towards becoming increasingly knotted (to some limit where the accumulated knots limit mobility of the mass).

    It seems there may also be a ratcheting effect once a loose knot forms - the knot/loop being bulky will more likely catch on the surrounding mass then the single stands leading into it, so that if the loose ends get tugged by the jiggling of the surrounding mass then the knot will tighten.

    But there again I'm just a dude who uses string rather than a high powered topologist getting paid to research string, so what do I know?!

  12. So this is where string theory leads us? by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Funny

    How hard is this? The Universe is a box full of string. Knots form. Some make pretty big knots.

    Eventually, when the chimps write a decent but unpopular novel, balls of string form. Many balls. In time, these seem to have gathered and caused all sorts of interesting phenomenae, like stars, Western clothing, and Jessica Alba.

    Unfortunately, this can only end one of two ways...

    1- The string gets untangled. All devolves into a box of string again. Knots form again.

    2- All this gets emptied into another box. Sold at a yard sale. Who knows what happens with the new owner... Actually, even if the string gets untangled, it ends up in a yard sale.

    Physics. It's really all about yard sales.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  13. Hands-on knot theory by clawsoon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a sysadmin who has spent days untangling hundreds of tangled cables from the backs of too-crowded racks - hundreds of A/V lines criss-crossed by dozens of network lines criss-crossed by power cords - I've had some time to think about practical knot theory. I've established two primary hypotheses:

    1. Placing cables is difficult because you are not just defining the position of that cable, you are also defining the position of every other cable in relation to that cable. As the number of cables rises, the complexity increases combinatorially. (Or exponentially. Or something. I faked my way through those math classes.)

    2. There are many more ways for cables to be tangled than to be untangled, so statistically, tangling is overwhelmingly likely. It's like entropy that way: There are many more ways for particles to move in different directions than there are ways for particles to move in the same direction, so it takes special effort or special circumstances to get them all to line up.

    1. Re:Hands-on knot theory by poopdeville · · Score: 3, Interesting

      2. There are many more ways for cables to be tangled than to be untangled, so statistically, tangling is overwhelmingly likely. It's like entropy that way: There are many more ways for particles to move in different directions than there are ways for particles to move in the same direction, so it takes special effort or special circumstances to get them all to line up.

      You need to make the notion of counting ways to be tangled and untangled more precise. In any case, the problem with real cables is that most cable runs have a half turn in them. But where the turn happens varies. Moreover, the turn introduces distortion in the cable at the turn since it isn't under tension. Heating and cooling, and Type I and II Reidemeister moves caused by the distortion moving do the rest.

      But note that these kinds of knots are trivial to untangle if you keep the cables connected, and much harder if you don't, since Type I and II Reidemeister moves can't produce knots, just tangles.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
  14. Re:Hair & Wires by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 2, Funny

    When I parsed the mentioned comment, it stated "undeclared-your" hair was the subject of the knotting. The Wife's spurious attribution of the cause to small semi-sentient beings does not change the knots in your hair.

    Meanwhile, when is the last time you swapped your hair strands around with the purpose of installing new hardware?

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  15. Re:Hair & Wires by SetupWeasel · · Score: 2, Funny

    I've never personally purchased a weave, but I hear many women do.

  16. A string walks into a bar. by Fjord · · Score: 2, Funny

    A string walks into a bar.

    He asks for a shot of tequila. The bartender replies "Sorry we don't serve strings". So the string leaves.

    The next day, the same string walks back into the bar. He asks for a shot of tequila. The bartender replies "Sorry we do not serve strings, please go away."

    The following day the string stands outside the bar debating about whether to go in or not. He ties himself up and messes the top of end so that it's loose and uneven.

    He goes in and asks for a shot of tequila. The bartender replys "Hey aren't you that string that's been coming in here all the time."

    The string replies "No I'm a freyed knot".

    --
    -no broken link