Wonder Woman Gets a Woman's Point-of-View

theodp writes "Traditionally, comics have been by, for and about men. But more and more women are breaking into the traditional boys' club. Beginning with Wonder Woman #14, the superhero's tale is being told by Gail Simone. It's a break from nearly 66 years of being written for the most part by men. '[Her work as a blogger] led to a writing job for the all-female comic 'Birds of Prey' for DC--which became a short-lived, live-action TV series--and in turn won her the "Wonder Woman" job. Simone says she sees a change since she wrote her refrigerator rant 10 years ago. 'At that time, the trend was towards grim stories where female characters were killed,' she says. 'We only had a handful of female characters to look up to. Today we're not seeing those stories so much.'"

Comments

the Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux! *Thought I'd make an apropos-of-nothing Linux reference before someone else finds a way to*

Re:the Story

[Anonymous Coward]

This article proves that Vista is the worst operating system, because men developed it.

uh oh

[deftones_325]

From now on, WonderWoman will only wear approriate non-demeaning attire. No more tight pants. Trade them in for a pant-suit or business dress and a PDA. And please refer to her as WonderPerson, its less shovanistic.

Re:uh oh

[rednip]

If you'd turn away from your thrice daily dose of 'liberal outrage', and crawl out of your parent's basement, you'd realize that the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity. Others who continue propagate such trash, do so as they believe that some reward could be gained (ratings, votes, book sales, and other forms of income in particular).

Re:uh oh

[SanityInAnarchy]

Oh, I guarantee that women like that exist. There is simply too much diversity in the world for them not to. It's the principle of "If you can think of something, it already exists on the Internet, and there's probably already fetish porn about it."

But while I wouldn't call you a "Nazi Socialist PC ball buster", look what you did here: "men who are insecure about their own masculinity."

I don't disagree that it's possible to be feminist without being a feminazi, and you may even be right that the feminazi is a myth. But I've seen women propagate and participate in that myth.

When attacking others for their intolerance or prejudice, it helps to not be showing your own prejudice in the same breath. (Not even going to start with the "crawl out of your parent's basement" comment.)

Re:uh oh

[0xdeadbeef]

Of course their masculinity is threatened. What psycho-sexual complex do you think something like this springs from if it weren't?

Re:uh oh

[Scudsucker]

And if it's on the Internet, it must be true!

Re:uh oh

[geekoid]

"If you'd turn away from your thrice daily dose of 'liberal outrage', and crawl out of your parent's basement, you'd realize that the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity."

Sorry, you are wrong. Some women take pride being just that, and they announce it loudly. You really should look around a little bit more.
Also, stop propagating the 'basement' stereo type, it only make you look stupid and petty.

Re:uh oh

[rednip]

Sorry, you are wrong. Some women take pride being just that, and they announce it loudly. You really should look around a little bit more.

Not one of the three posts I've responded to even indicated that the OP was an ass. Instead you'all seem to insist that they do exist, and actually you are right, they do, it's a big world and not enough people are on lithium. Claiming that some random loser on the internet lives in his parent's basement is far more likely on target, and nowhere near the insult that was given. One is far more likely to find a right wing nut job than a militant feminist, and I believe that I've done angered a whole nest of them, again.

BTW, for the record, I'm a dude, and I'd hardly call myself a feminist, but I really hate it when women of are subject to these sorts of bulling. Congratulations on your post, I'm sure that some idiot will take it as further proof that women deserve this kind of treatment.

Re:uh oh

[Chuqmystr]

Eon Flux: Dead. Reborn. Dead. Reborn. Dead. Reborn. Dead -- if [ "Eon" = "dead" ]; then rebirth; fi Eon rulez (please excuse 5kr1pt k1dd13 speak) Eon, will you please marry me? Nevemind my current wife - lets move to U**** where it's alright and we can build a super secret superhero fortress/luv-nest in the desert and thwart dickhead badguys together ;-) I'm an old married geek. If I comment anymore I'll just shoot myself in the foot again. Ah, what the hell, This *term zombie says "Send more r0x0r Eon - type grrrlz..." Mod me down - I'm going to bed, screw you clowns! Now just where'd I leave my false teeth and ankle wrap? Grumble... complain... ZZzzzzz....

Re:uh oh

[c6gunner]

Of course their masculinity is threatened. What psycho-sexual complex do you think something like this springs from if it weren't?

Since when is humour a psycho-sexual complex? :/

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, you're even more of an ass than him so we target you first.
Don't worry, his turn will come to pass. We do not discriminate among ass
but we have every right to prioritize.

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

Read http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Biting_Beaver

There really are that much worthless humans out there. Some of them are women. Some or man. Some are caucasian. Some are black. Some are asian.

Even if you belong to a minority, you can still be worthless.

It's a male thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Women won't understand.

Fine by me...

[merc]

as long as the new Wonder Woman has big boobies and wears a skimpy patriotic bikini.

*blinks*

what?

Re:Fine by me...

[ILuvRamen]

funny you should mention this. I saw something on the history channel about Wonder Woman and way back in the day when it first came out, even the author admits it was practically kinky porn with clothes on. It was like some pervy bondage comic. They showed shots of some pages and I was like WHOA seriously wtf.

Re:Fine by me...

[hkmarks]

Gail Simone is a fantastic writer and a personal hero of mine.

I'm counting on two things in her Wonder Woman run... which actually started a couple of months ago, so this story is kind of late, but anyway...

The same standard of quality storytelling and hilarity she's shown on her previous books, such as Birds of Prey (about ex-Batgirl Barbara Gordon, now super-hacker Oracle, and her various superheroine operatives). So far, we have evil Amazons and talking gorillas, so all is well.

And, as in her previous books, plenty of equal opportunity nudity.

Re:Fine by me...

[ThirdPrize]

Nope, I hear it's going to be dungarees with an eagle on the escape hatch.

Re:Fine by me...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was confused there for a moment, since Birds of Prey is also a book by Wilbur Smith. :)

There's a reason for it.

[Token_Internet_Girl]

Jack Nicholson was once asked in a movie, "How do you write about women so well?" to which he replied "I think of a man. Then I take away reason and accountability." Comics are boys club because boys don't want to read soap opera emo trash. Not that I'm a traitor to my gender, its just that its true. So maybe if this chick can bring those two little spices into the comic, she deserves to write it.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[vajaradakini]

Not every woman writes "soap opera emo trash" and not all comic book readers are men (as the article discussed, if you felt like reading it).

Re:There's a reason for it.

[0xdeadbeef]

Boys have always fawned over soap opera emo trash. Name any popular superhero who hasn't spent time drowning in angst and self-doubt. What would you expect in the wish-fulfillment fantasies of the awkward and outcast?

No, they'll read anything if there is fighting involved and nothing that threatens their sexual self-image.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, hardwired for sex.

A rush of serotonin when encountering the right kind of skin tone(s), eyes, mouth, etc... impedes normal thought processes, making some people a lot more interesting then they actually are. After a hell of a lot repetition, the Pavlovian effect begins to show it's ugly head and it's too late (providing he didn't get her knocked up to begin with).

I've been making faces (zoned out, whatever you want to call it) since I was a baby. It's not sexual, or at least it doesn't have to be. Stops being cute at about ten and starts being creepy at 12. It's kinda like Stan from South Park alway puking on Wendy.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[uxbn_kuribo]

Soap Opera stories + violence = comic books. And pro wrestling.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[kaizokuace]

guys will read soap opera emo trash, if you wrap it up in political intrigue. If you have read tale of genji you will see that essentially one of the first illustrated books(or scrolls) was total emo drama just with politics and stuff.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Name any popular superhero who hasn't spent time drowning in angst and self-doubt. What would you expect in the wish-fulfillment fantasies of the awkward and outcast?

Read some comics from earlier than the 80s. The angst and self-doubt is new in this area.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[boyko.at.netqos]

"Comics are boys club because boys don't want to read soap opera emo trash."

*cough* Sandman *cough*

Right, but "boys" aren't reading the comics. When was the last time you saw a comics shop with kids in it outnumbering the adults?

No, I think you're onto the right thing for the wrong reason. Comics lend themselves well to short, action stories and simple parables because of the nature of the medium. 22 short pages. Very little text. Lots of artwork. And a history of only being able to tell the most bland of stories due to the legacy of the Comics Code.

I do, in fact, see women reading comics - but those comics are manga stories which are usually published in large compilations that can go on for thousands of pages. In the "manga style", you can tell a long story with subtlety, spend pages exploring a single emotion or moment. But guess what, guys read it too.

There are traditional, non-manga comics which can look at these themes, and I'll pass up "Superman" every time to get to them. But those are rare and hard to pick out amongst the TONS of comic book titles.

I mean, if I'm looking for a long, epic story exploring complex themes, I'll rent a 3 hour movie. Or get a TV series on DVD.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Comics are boys club because boys don't want to read soap opera emo trash.

WTF are you talking about? (And how did this get modded Interesting?) Nobody wants to read "trash".

I went into a comic book store yesterday (which had been recommended to me as a good one, even), and over half the store was adolescent male power fantasies. Another 1/4 of the store was DND books. If you walked into a Barnes & Noble and saw this distribution, you'd laugh your ass off -- and then leave. Where's the rest of it? Where's the nonfiction? Where are the biographies? (I found Scott McCloud's 3 books on the bottom shelf, labeled "Miscellaneous", behind the counter, nestled between some out-of-print superhero comics.)

Video games are going through the same thing. You don't have to make something women-only; you just have to make something good that's not men-only. When some people come along and make a game that isn't just another bloody FPS, everybody loves it. (Does John Romero come up with good games, and then remove the women and add guns and bullets and blood? It sure seems like it.)

If you think the only types of comics are adolescent male power fantasies, and "soap opera emo trash", you're part of the problem.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[hkmarks]

Not quite. It was the key to Marvel Comics' success in the 1960s. Spider-Man exemplified it.

Prior to that, there was plenty of angst and doubt in comics outside of the superhero corner. E.C. thrived on it.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[BeanThere]

Funny, I've re-read it a few times and I just cannot see anything in Token_Internet_Girl's post that claims or even insinuates that every woman writes "soap opera emo trash" or that all comic book readers are men. Where did you get that? It also seems you may not have noticed the poster is a woman.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[BeanThere]

But it's never been the "core" of the writing, even though it existed, the vastly predominant aspects are action and storyline/plot.

Re:There's a reason for it.

[Joe Tie.]

I mean, if I'm looking for a long, epic story exploring complex themes, I'll rent a 3 hour movie. Or get a TV series on DVD.

A big problem there, however, is that 3 hour movies are pretty rare. Quality ones even more so. And TV series usually try to steer as far away from continuity or character development as possible, as not being able to skip an episode or five and then dive back in is a death kiss for ratings. Even aside from the main writer only gracing most series with a couple of scripts per season and the other writers being forbidden to mess around with things too much.

What about the woman last year?

[JustJon]

Is this really such a big break when novelist Jodi Picoult wrote Wonder Woman last year, and is a woman herself?

Re:What about the woman last year?

[Anonymous Coward]

Picoult's run was very short-lived and really quite terrible. She wrote Wonder Woman as a ditz who didn't know how to order a cup of coffee or how to fill a gas-tank. After only a few issues it's clear that Simone's Wonder Woman is superior by every standard.

Re:What about the woman last year?

[scowling]

Which isn't saying much.

I'm going to voice the unpopular opinion: Gail Simone not a very good writer, neither of fiction or bloggy opinion pieces. Her work is overly-fannish, similiar to what we see in Peter David's or Mark Waid's work, but without the character development of David or the skilful plot unification that Waid is known for. IMHO, what sets Simone's work apart from other comics writers is its astounding degree of 'fanservice'. Fans want to see X beat up Y? So does Simone. Fans want to see fan-favourite characters A, B and C in a team? So does Simone. Whether it makes sense from a plot perspective or whether there's any kind of character development that grows from those stories is secondary -- and usually non-existent.

Simone also writes in too many 'Mary Sue' characters. Birds of Prey's Misfit. Tranquility's Sheriff Thomasina. And on and on and on.

Tranquility had a great high concept, but has failed terribly in its execution. The best large-cast stories are able to develop the characters of the cast. The worst focus on one or two and leave the rest as cardboard cutouts. The very worst can't even succeed with one or two. And then there's Tranquility, with a cast of cardboard characters, none of whom the audience should care about, inhabiting a virtually incomprehensible story. Don't get me wrong: the idea was great, but someone else should have written it.

So far, Simone's WW arc has had several retcons: WW's lasso can do *what*? Captain Nazi's mother was a what? And some of the plot points are just asinine; Diana agrees to serve some Hawaiian god? Talking gorillas in her apartment? More unnecessary bloodshed directed against women, ironically from a writer who has railed about such violence for years?

As with so many other fanservice writers before her, fans mistake her ability to press the right buttons in the fannish pleasure centre for good writing.

Re:What about the woman last year?

[Tamora Pierce]

As the Newsweek article puts it, "When the novelist Jodi Picout was approached in 2006 to write a few installments of the Wonder Woman comic book series ..." The writer then goes on to say, "With the release of this month's `Wonder Woman' No. 14, the superhero gets her first permanent, ongoing, female scribe, Gail Simone ..." Their POV being it's the permanent one that counts. ::shrug::

Nobody in the kitchen!!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the only reason women aren't being killed off too much: There's nobody in the kitchen anymore.

What about Marsden's Bondage Themes?

[Bonker]

William Marsden created Wonder Woman as a role model of what he considered feminine strengths. These are very much the traditional 'yin' feminine values and focused less on female empowerment and much more on beauty, demure behavior, and obedience. Women can be strong, Marsden reasoned, by focusing on their womanhood and need not waste time trying to fit into male roles.

Marsden was also a bit of a pervert. His wife and their live-in slave... er... maid, lived in more-or-less open polygamy. They were his bondage slaves, and were apparently quite happy to be so. This theme, of feminine happiness through obedience and subservience, is repeated frequently through Wonder Woman. Not only did Wonder Woman frequently get tied up with her own magic lasso, but pretty much all the Amazon girls loved being bound, spanked, or otherwise disciplined by their superiors.

While you may disagree with Marsden's symbolism, any retelling of Wonder Woman that leaves out the bondage isn't really doing the subject very much justice. Wonderwoman need not end up stuffed in a refrigerator, but she does need to be frequently paddled to keep the story moving.

Re:What about Marsden's Bondage Themes?

[Anonymous Coward]

No discussion of Wonder Woman's bondage themes would be complete without pics...

http://www.superdickery.com/bondage/1.html

Suffering Sapho! I really hope Gail Simone does bring back the bondage.

Re:What about Marsden's Bondage Themes?

[Shipwack]

You have it backwards... Marston believed in female -superiority-, not submission. If anyone was the slave in their poly household it was him. A quote from him form the Wikipedia article:

"Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves!"

From Nick Gillepsie's article about him in Reason magazinehttp://www.reason.com/news/show/28014.html/:

For Marston, the most "constructive" comics were those that laid the groundwork for what he insisted was the coming age of "American matriarchy" in which "women would take over the rule of the country, politically and economically."

I doubt very much the two woman he lived with were his "bondage slaves".

Work as a blogger?

[Telvin_3d]

Her work as a blogger? Simone has been working in the comics industry for almost a decade now and got the job of writing Wonder Woman due to a solid history of writing well crafted, memorable, stories. She has worked for both the major comic companies and a few of the minor ones writing everything from established superhero books to quirky creator-owned stuff. To suggest that she got a high profile job because of her BLOG is kind of insulting to the hard work she has put in over the years.

Re:Work as a blogger?

[\\]

Her blog got her noticed at CBR, which got her noticed by Bongo, which eventually got her noticed by Marvel & DC, which eventually got her a Wonder Woman job. It took close to ten years, but that was the progression. Yes, she's talented, and her humble beginnings in the comic book industry begain with a blog.

Gail Simone didn't "get" anything because of her blog, she earned her way as a good writer that got noticed and continues to do so. The path she took just happened to start with a blog. What are you so defensive about?

Excuse me?

[Frisbee_Chick]

Um...yeah...but no

Read the rant. Completely disagree. FYI I don't have hairy pits or legs.

Doesn't every character/hero of consequence go through some life-defining moment. She writes as is every female goes off to a grimson end or a tragic moment but uh hello...there's life....there's character building...there's a good friggin story.

Look at the list and it blatantly leaves out key figures in the comic universes. Examples:

Superman died

Batman was paralyzed only to come back and take out the sorry sack of shit who replaced him

Robin died

Spawn was a crusader who was reborn in hell...how more tragic is fighting for what you believe to be a noble cause and hello you go straight to hell

Wolverine was used, abused, lost his memory and then ended up working for the X-men

Sorry...but a personal pet peeve is a feminist fight without a true argument. Sorry to say but women were allowed the same fates as men. I personally love when the woman is a villain. At least we're acknowledged as a threat. A good story always involves a sad or grimsom moment for the lead character. Thankfully women have been subjected to same fates of men in the comic world.

Re:Excuse me?

[Anonymous Coward]

The complaint was that too many comic writers treated female characters as disposable than male characters. Female characters lack the permanence of male characters. When a writer wants to kill off a character for shock value, to give a character "depth" by putting them through something traumatic, or just to change the direction of the plot from where a previous writer was taking it, female characters tend to be the most convenient targets.

Re:Excuse me?

[dasunt]

Women can't be true villains.

They are just naive and confused, and thus easily wander astray!

It is only men that have the higher brain capacity to be evil.

Women, being the weaker sex, need to be protected by staying in a safe place. Preferably the kitchen. And since they are in there, they can make me a sammich. :p

This was sarcasm, for the humor-impaired.

Re:Excuse me?

[Cosmic AC]

What is grimson/grimsom?

Re:Excuse me?

[Anonymous Coward]

And since they are in there, they can make me a sammich. :p

: ^ D

Re:Excuse me?

[Planesdragon]

When a writer wants to kill off a character for shock value, to give a character "depth" by putting them through something traumatic, or just to change the direction of the plot from where a previous writer was taking it, female characters tend to be the most convenient targets. Odd. Care to name examples?

There'll be a little bit of a slant towards women being victims, because so often the lead of a comic is a man, and you can't kill off the lead and keep your book going strong. And since most comic heroes have a love interest, and aren't gay, you have your slant towards women being victims.

Maybe it's just because I read Marvel instead of DC or Image. I gotta love a company that puts all heroes through crap equally.

Re:Excuse me?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's great and all, but what guy uses the word sammich? Last I heard, that word was popularised by Food Network's pet star Rachael Ray.

Re:Excuse me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, THAT is why they say sarcasm is the lowest form of humour.

just kidding. what. oops. oh.

Re:Excuse me?

[Anonymous Coward]

uh hello.. grimson/grimsom is a word used by uh hello.. like people who read too much graphic literature and skip the uh like word boxes and stuff.. like..

Re:Excuse me?

[Kierthos]

Okay, how about Kyle Rayner's (the Green Lantern replacement after Hal Jordan was possessed by the Parallax entity) girlfriend, killed by Major Force and stuffed in a fridge? Or Kyle's mom, killed by one of the Sinestro Corps?

How about the incidents which started the Identity Crisis in DC? Those would be the (revealed as a past event) rape of the Elongated Man's wife, Sue Dibny, and then later her murder? Oh, and the ultimate culprit of it was Jean Loring, the ex-wife of the Atom.

Superman dies during the attack by Doomsday, but he ends up coming back. Hippolyta (Wonder Woman's mother) dies during the fight with Imperiex and stays dead. Batman gets his back broken by Bane in the Knightfall arc but ends up getting better. Barbara Gordon is partially paralyzed by the Joker in Batman: The Killing Joke and never regains the use of her legs (well, okay, for like two issues in Birds of Prey she does).

Do you need more examples?

Re:Excuse me?

[Kierthos]

Superman ended up coming back to life.

So did Robin (Jason Todd). Robin (Stephanie Brown) is still dead. Maybe.

Re:Excuse me?

[foreverdisillusioned]

All dead superheroes will come back to life eventually, so long as they're popular enough. Neither DC nor Marvel is going to permanently kill of anyone of any gender unless they are looking unprofitable.

Re:Excuse me?

[Lemmy Caution]

This entire thread is based on conceptions of sexual and representational politics that was stale by the end of the 1980's.

It lead to the production of well-intentioned media products that depicted "strong women" in a way that was completely divorced from people's day-to-day experiences of actual gender relations. In practice, both men and women collaboratively - and often enthusiastically - produce a world in which men both threaten and protect women, in which women are identified with roles as either nurturers or social aggregators. Attempts to engineer away the complex practice which produces gender roles fail just like government campaigns which try to produce fears about drugs fail: when a public service announcement depicts marijuana as dangerous, the source of that announcement loses all credibility even when talking about crack.

Oddly enough, academic feminism in this stripe is nearly dead (and usually exiled either to mediocre institutions or to a couple tenured hangers-on) - instead, a much more nuanced view has emerged.

Re:Excuse me?

[Kierthos]

But if they're popular enough, they're not intended to stay dead anyway. Do you think that the writers of the Doomsday story in the Superman titles ever intended for the big blue boy scout to stay dead? Hell no.

Plus, the point trying to be made here is that there is a lot of history towards "unpopular male character retires or dies only to return for a later comic as needed" as well as "unpopular female character dies or get crippled or tortured only to never return".

Re:Excuse me?

[Greg_D]

Two words for you: Jason Todd.

You can say whatever you want about the TINY, TINY percentage of females in comics who have died over the years, but Jason Todd was VOTED TO DIE BY THE FANS, and nobody gave it a thought, because men are supposed to die.

The percentage of men in comics who are killed, maimed, depowered, and disfigured DWARFS the female characters both in percentage and number.

Hell, the ORIGINAL Superman was beaten to death. His wife just passed away naturally. Chalk up old Lois to the list, I guess. And it isn't important the way that Kara Zor-El died, only that she did. Who gives a shit about heroism when you can have kvetching instead?

Batman and Superman couldn't BE Batman and Superman without being alive or being able to walk. It's kind of a prerequesite to the job, and they obviously aren't going to have anything major happen to them since they support so many books. Hyppolyta didn't stay dead. And Barbara Gordon is a more important character now as Oracle than she ever was as Batgirl... and the reason she isn't walking right now is because she CHOSE not to, in a story that Gail wrote.

The entire line of thinking is fucking stupid. Most of the main characters in comics are men, because men are the people who buy the majority of comics. If you want to build up conflict, you can do it a number of ways, but when you want to build up a tragedy for a character, it's going to come in the form of hurt to someone that character cares about, and MOST of them are heterosexual men, therefore most of their love interests are going to be women.

Did it have to be Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis? Yeah, it pretty much did. Sue and Ralph have been around in comics for years, but aren't really important characters. Sue in particular had a reputation for being sweet and fun, so it made sense for her to be the target if you're going to have to kill off a non-hero character important enough to the other characters for them to all panic without directly impacting any of the other books. Likewise, Jean Loring wasn't an important character, UNTIL she killed Sue. Now, she's one of the most important characters in the DC comics universe.

But you know what? If it had been a guy killing another guy the exact same way, you wouldn't have given it a second thought. Because men are supposed to be violent and kill other men, but women are supposed to be precious. What utter bullshit.

Re:Excuse me?

[Kierthos]

You do know that Jason Todd is alive again, right?

Re:Excuse me?

[TheLink]

You like to prove bias using anecdotal evidence?

Here's anecdotal evidence - Uncle Ben dies and stays dead for most universes (in comic books there's always going to be one universe where a major character doesn't die or die permanently).

If you really want to do a proper study you'll have to do stuff like take a decent sized random sample of comic books, then list down the characters, how many issues they appeared in, whether they were male or female (or both or one then the other etc :) ). Then you list down how many times they died, were resurrected, were not actually dead, were alive in some other universe, didn't die etc.

If it bothers you all so much, maybe you should go do it to back up your claim.

Personally I couldn't be bothered - most US style comic books don't seem particularly anti-female, given the target audience appear to be mainly young males.

The US comics industry appear to prefer to invest in a few characters and reuse those characters for many decades. As such it does limit you in which characters you can kill off and keep dead.

Heck if you had a main female character that was targeted at young males, the usual whingers would claim it was misogynistic because she'd likely often be scantily clad :).

Re:Excuse me?

[Kierthos]

Okay, so in my original reply, the parent (Planesdragon) asked for examples, and I listed some, and you're busting my balls because it's anecdotal evidence?

Of course it is, you jackass. I gave examples, like he asked, not a complete historical breakdown over which gender has had the shit kicked out of it more in comics and permanently suffered because of it. For fuck's sake, it's not like I'm claiming comics are anti-Native American because the original Thunderbird is one of the few X-Men to die permanently.

Re:Excuse me?

[foreverdisillusioned]

Plus, the point trying to be made here is that there is a lot of history towards "unpopular male character retires or dies only to return for a later comic as needed" as well as "unpopular female character dies or get crippled or tortured only to never return".

1. She didn't make that point. All she gave was a list of female characters to whom bad things happen--we have no idea of their relative popularity, nor whether or not they were ever conveniently temporarily revived. We don't even have a similar list of dead and mangled male characters to compare it to. Considering how large the comics industry is, and for how many decades it's been popular, I don't think her list is a very big at all.

2. I didn't even realize it at first, but a lot of them apparently aren't even superheroes. OF COURSE bad shit happens to the superhero's (or supervillian's) girlfriend--bad things happening to innocent bystanders is a primary motivation for good *and* bad guys everywhere. That most superheroes (and supervillians) are male is a given--therefore, it shouldn't be surprising if most innocent-bystanders-just-waiting-to-be-killed-or-maimed-for-plot-advancement are female.

3. A lot of the non-fatal stuff she mentions (and less than half of the characters mentioned actually die) appears to be completely temporary in nature, like person X losing her powers (when I know for a fact that they regain them later on.) This is... simply absurd. I'm only a VERY casual comic fan, but I've read entire-series summaries and they typically go like this: Superman fights XYZ, loses his powers, gains powers again, gets turned into a weird green blob, gets turns back again, gets his ass kicked, makes a comeback and kicks his own ass, etc.

In short, temporary negative shit happens to every single superhero ever conceived... period. If Batman wasn't humiliated and brutalized from time to time, he wouldn't be Batman. If Superman didn't lose his powers occasionally, he'd grow tiresome (weeeeeell, he's tiresome anyway, but that's beside the point.) Shit happens, superheroes deal with it, THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. I mean look at this crap:

* Scarlet Witch (children 'die'/vanish/are lost because they are figments of her imagination)

I know very very very little about the Scarlet Witch. As I recall, she's from the X-Men universe and she has the power to alter reality at will. I don't even know if she's a good guy or bad guy or switch hitter, but anyway--what's described there sounds like a very powerful bit of character development. Villian or hero, that sounds interesting... but according to the writer, it's just another way to degrade women. She even put "figments of her imagination" in italics, for emphasis, as if it was almost too horrible to be believed.

* Wolfsbane (locked in werewolf form for awhile, needs major therapy)

I know nothing of the character. Sounds like it's the typical "couldn't control own powers" plot line that pretty much every single goddamned superhero has had to deal with.

* Diamond Lil (kidnapped, experimented on by own government, developed benign breast tumor)

...a benign tumor. BENIGN. OMG, and Superman had a hangnail in #9375. Re: government experimentation, this is an EXTREMELY common theme with any hero who possesses superpowers (Wolverine leaps to mind.)

In short, this looks like a very lame, cherry-picked list without any male list to compare it to.

OMG, Bruce Wayne had to watch his parents die WHEN HE WAS A KID! And he acted kinda crazy and macho in the Dark Knight Returns! And Superman has turned evil and lost his powers and died and god knows what else. And all kinds of bad crap happens to Spiderman! Right there, those are the top 3 superheroes in the world... so that's proof that the comics industry HATES men!!!!

Idiot.

Re:Excuse me?

[foreverdisillusioned]

Sorry, can't resist, one more:

* Crimson Fox (both sisters dead)

The emphasis is hers--not mine. This character has lost TWO, yes TWO relatives, and just to drive this point home she uses bold on "both". (What about Bruce Wayne's parents, Superman's entire fucking family, Spiderman's uncle/girlfriend/etc...)

It's all just so cluelessly whiny I have a hard time taking it seriously. About the only thing she mentions that probably aren't VERY common with males are the sexual assaults.

Re:Excuse me?

[localman]

Superman died ... Batman was paralyzed ... Robin died

Doh! Where was the spoiler warning!?! ;)

Re:Excuse me?

[dirk]

I think the main point isn't that something bad happened to these character (whether permanent or temporary) but why it happened. These things happened generally to further define/motivate a male character. The majority of time, these women were used as designated victim to motivate a male character. The things that happened didn't help define these women as characters, they helped to show why the man was upset and wanting revenge.

When Batman's back was broken, it lead to him coming back stronger and help define his character more. When Black Canary was beaten to a pulp in the Longbow Hunters, it lead not to her coming back even stronger and helping to further define her character, but to Green Arrow coming in and killing the perpetrators, thus showing more about his character. If Black Canary had come back from the beating like Batman did, we wouldn't be talking about it. But instead of using it to further her character, it happened to further the male character.

When writers never (or extremely rarely) take a male friend and kill them to anger the male character. They always use a female as the designated victim. The injury to the women are used not to push forward their own story, they are used solely to enhance the males in the story and give them a reason to do something.

Re:Excuse me?

[LoverOfJoy]

I'm no comic guru but didn't this happen all the time with batman and robin? I remember people joking frequently about Robin wearing bright clothes to be an easy target and therefore be easy in motivating and developing batman? On the flip side, the bad things that happened to Rogue and Psylocke of the X-Men were to develop them as characters, not their male teammates. It sounds like most of the complaints can be chalked up to their just not being a whole lot of female main characters relative to male stars so statistically speaking the bad things that happen to females are going to be happening to nonmain characters. And that can be chalked up to there just being a lot more male comic fans than female.

Re:Excuse me?

[Steve001]

Kierthos wrote:

Superman ended up coming back to life.

So did Robin (Jason Todd). Robin (Stephanie Brown) is still dead. Maybe.

Jason Todd is a special case. He was killed, buried, and spent years in his grave. But due to the actions of Superboy-Prime in conjunction with "Infinite Crisis" (which altered the timeline) Jason Todd's death was undone and a short while ago (after years in the grave) he suddenly woke up in his grave with all of the injuries he acquired from being beaten by the Joker with a crowbar and then being blown up. It took a dip in the Lazarus Pit (used to keep Ra's Al Ghul alive) that restored him back to health.

Death in comics has become far too unpermanent. Just on the DC Comics side, Superman, Wonder Woman (Diana), Wonder Woman (Hyppolyta) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) have all died and returned to life. Death used to be a big deal, now its more like giving the character a pause.

Re:Excuse me?

[TheLink]

1) The original claim was "female characters tend to be the most convenient targets."

Planesdragon asked for examples to presumably back that claim.

Your reply did not back that claim. There are so many female and male characters after all.

2) If I somehow "busted your balls" with my reply, I apologize.

Re:Excuse me?

[hkmarks]

That's right. Someone called that "dead men defrosting" (as opposed to "women in refrigerators").

Men get to go back to their former status quo after getting screwed. Women generally don't. WiR specifically refers to women getting screwed over or killed to advance NOT their own development, but instead the development of a male character to whom they are attached. If a male character (such as Wolverine) gets screwed, it's usually to advance his own character, not someone else's.

It's not a hard and fast rule, of course, but a general observation. There are plenty of counterpoints -- it's not like the boys don't get killed. The key thing is that it's hard for women to enjoy comics when the female characters are getting raped and murdered. It's just not fun to read about.

http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/

Re:Excuse me?

[Scudsucker]

Death in comics has become far too unpermanent. Just on the DC Comics side, Superman, Wonder Woman (Diana), Wonder Woman (Hyppolyta) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) have all died and returned to life. Death used to be a big deal, now its more like giving the character a pause.

We're used to people dying and coming back, especially villains. The one that pissed me off though was when Marvel brought back Norman Osbourne, when he was the one major bad guy to have actually stayed dead. And it's not just that they brought him back, but in a gloriously shitty storyline that had Norman "hiding out in Europe for five years" to explain why he didn't come back sooner.

Re:Excuse me?

[Scudsucker]

Scarlet Witch (children 'die'/vanish/are lost because they are figments of her imagination)

That's because some jackass writer or editor at Marvel decided she didn't want her to have kids, so they made them to be her imaginary friends. Marvel likes to periodically have an orgasmic shitstorm of bad writing. Wanda's kids are one example. Other's are brining back Norman Osbourne, the one major villain to actually stay dead, Onslaught, dragging out the Spider Clone story, and having Wanda reduce Earth's mutant population from millions to a few hundred.

And every time I think they've hit rock bottom, they find a new way to prove me wrong. Not only did they bring back Norman Osbourne, but now supposedly he had an affair with Gwen Stacey...and knocked her up...and she had kids. I shit you not.

Re:Excuse me?

[Scudsucker]

When Black Canary was beaten to a pulp in the Longbow Hunters, it lead not to her coming back even stronger and helping to further define her character, but to Green Arrow coming in and killing the perpetrators, thus showing more about his character. If Black Canary had come back from the beating like Batman did, we wouldn't be talking about it. But instead of using it to further her character, it happened to further the male character.

But Black Canary did come back like Batman did. Savant broke both her legs and chained her to a rotten mattress to user her as leverage against Oracle (Barbra Gordon). After she heals and gets more training, she challenges him to a fight and wins.

Re:Excuse me?

[Scudsucker]

Okay, so in my original reply, the parent (Planesdragon) asked for examples, and I listed some, and you're busting my balls because it's anecdotal evidence?

No, you deserve to be busted for copying the "women in refrigerators" argument verbatim instead of coming up with your own examples. Hint: it was called Women In Refrigerators for the woman that was stuffed in a refrigerator.

And there's the flipside to her feminist rant: the reason women are hurt and put in danger is because female life is more valued than male life. Thus, when they are threatened, it makes for more tension. Watch any horror movie, a woman is likely to be the last survivor if not one of the last survivors. Women and children first, and all that.

Re:Excuse me?

[smurgy]

It's a combination of grim, gruesome, and the lead character in the original CSI.

Re:Excuse me?

[Card Zero]

Most of the main characters in comics are men, because men are the people who buy the majority of comics. And why are men the people who buy the majority of comics?

It really shouldn't be that difficult for writers to produce stories that appeal to women. Why are comics of this type so rare?

If they're not rare, why aren't women buying them?

As a woman who appreciates good storytelling and great artwork as much as any man, I have a very hard time finding comics with main characters that appeal to my interests. The industry would have a lot more of my money if they could figure out a way to appeal to my interests.

Featuring strong female leads who didn't routinely get raped/sterilized/possessed/kidnapped/driven insane/refrigerated/etc. might be a good start, but I agree that heroic stories often require high tragedy counts whether the victims are male or female.

So how about featuring strong female characters whose strength (or fatal flaw) didn't ultimately derive from their husbands, brothers, sons, or breasts?

It's great that Lois Lane outlived her husband, but she was still just "Superman's wife." My introduction to Kara Zor-El was as "Supergirl, Superman's female cousin." When male comic books characters actually do end up subservient to female leads like Wonder Woman, more often than not there seems to be an undercurrent of lesbianism (or goddess worship) intended to titillate a heterosexual male audience. I wouldn't deprive the heterosexual male audience of those comics even if I could, but I'd still love to see more comics out there that were written and drawn for my enjoyment or titillation. It seems to me that more stories written by women is a step forward in that goal.

Re:Excuse me?

[Steve001]

Scudsucker wrote and included with a post:

Death in comics has become far too unpermanent. Just on the DC Comics side, Superman, Wonder Woman (Diana), Wonder Woman (Hyppolyta) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) have all died and returned to life. Death used to be a big deal, now its more like giving the character a pause.

We're used to people dying and coming back, especially villains. The one that pissed me off though was when Marvel brought back Norman Osbourne, when he was the one major bad guy to have actually stayed dead. And it's not just that they brought him back, but in a gloriously shitty storyline that had Norman "hiding out in Europe for five years" to explain why he didn't come back sooner.

I break down death in comics into two classifications:

• The typical comic book death, where a character can return to life via a plausable explanation, or no one is even pretending that the death is going to be permanent. The best example of this is with Donna Troy. Although she was shown to have died, the story's epilogue made it clear that she wasn't actually dead, she was simply somewhere else for the time being.
• The no-kidding death, where it is firmly and without reservation stated that the character is permanently dead and will not be returning. The best example of this is with The Flash (Barry Allen). In "Crisis On Infinite Earths" he was clearly shown to have died, and subsequent stories have made it clear that not only is he dead, but undoing his death would result in the destruction of the universe. More recently is the death of Superboy (Conner Kent), which was clearly shown in a way that there is little question that he did die right then.

For me, I'm not irritated much by a character's return from the dead except in the case where it has been made extremely clear that the character is permanently dead.

Re:What about MARSTON's Bondage Themes?

[Bonker]

Hmmph. I spelled his name wrong. It's Marston and not Marsden. I should be bound and flogged by nubile Amazon warrior maidens.

Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.

Interestingly, Marston is also frequently credited as the inventor of the Polygraph. He discouraged its use as a law enforcement device.

Next thing you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

...niggers will be writing the comics starring their filthy kind.

Oh wait, niggers can't read or write. No worries!

Re:Next thing you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the longer this retarded thread continues, I should add my take...

In response to the comment above this.. That was pretty dumb.. Please untie all the black people and women in your basement that are still alive.. Maybe you should come my way; my AR-15, let me show it to you. Please tell your klan buddies I have some 7.62 mm pudding and pie here waiting for them too..

I do enjoy all the bra-burning femi-nazi responses, even the chicks who are in total femi-nazi denial.

I got a gal who I swear is outta 1949. Keeping her man happy makes her happy. Is she the chosen one sent to destroy the fem-nazi movement in this overly-politically correct world? She's my fucking super hero.

Retardo slashdot mods please mod this down.. and by the way, this new DHTML and/or AJAX comment viewing system is totally fucking retarded. I'll slowly stop reading /. now because I cant see comments nested and in the order they were submitted. Instead I have to slide a slider and then click "More" about 60 times...

Re:Next thing you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

and by the way, this new DHTML and/or AJAX comment viewing system is totally fucking retarded. I'll slowly stop reading /. now because I cant see comments nested and in the order they were submitted. Instead I have to slide a slider and then click "More" about 60 times... Create an account. Move the dark gray slider on the annoying floating thing down as far as it will go. This will prevent comments from being hidden. I personally drag the white slider down until everything modded above 0 is expanded. This way I can click to expand comments by AC's and read trolls (trolls are the reason /. is my favorite site). If you click the "/" button on the annoying floating thing it stops floating and docks above the comments.

By having an account the settings will be saved so you don't have to set them again. You can still post anonymously by checking "Post Anonymously". Once set up like that the new comment system is freaking sweet Works great, even on threads with hundreds of comments. Plus, no captha's.

Re:Next thing you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's way too complicated. Just change your User-Agent to Internet Explorer and the old comment system is back.

Re:Next thing you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

To access the ultimate comments view you just need to find 15-30 hot girls and get into a big hot tub with them. Not kidding.

Ms. Magazine and WW Celebrate 35th Anniversary

[theodp]

Wonder Woman graced the July 1972 and Fall 2007 Ms. Magazine covers.

one thing's for sure

[Anonymous Coward]

No matter who writes Wonder Woman, we can all agree on one thing: that's one fine pair of funbags filling out that top.

So...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it about time we stopped celebrating every time a woman works in a "geek" job, with the implication they're overcoming the sexism of the powers-that-be in industry or some other such nonsense?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe the prejudice is there. These are simply businesses that attract men (and geeky ones at that.) If you have to ask why, then you never went to junior high. Geeky girls don't find solace in video games and superhero comics the same way boys do (barring exceptions, I'm speaking for millions here), and certainly don't aspire to make them their careers.

I've worked in comics. Trust me, the editors would love to have more female artists and writers involved, but the applicants just aren't there in any significant numbers. And by the way once you start delving into the indie comics scene, which is closer to "art", you'll find that easily a quarter to a third of the creators are women. They do like the medium of cartooning, it seems, they just don't care about superheroes.

Re:So...?

[dosius]

Seems to be more woman comic authors in Japan.

Naoko Takeuchi did a comic in 1992 that became not one, but TWO TV series...one ran for 200 eps, the other for 51...

-uso.

Re:So...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you, I was just wondering what my next anime series should be. I don't care what the premise is, if it ran for 200 episodes, it has to be good!

Re:So...?

[dosius]

I was referring, of course, to Sailor Moon.

BTW, Pokemon's run for I want to say 500-some-aught eps already and still running...

-uso.

I beg to differ...

[Shadolite]

Surprise! Comics and manga are really the same thing!

Fingers Crossed

[Anonymous Coward]

That she's not going to be a self-righteous, smug, dismissive, bore who thinks physics is a construct of man and her pussy is a weapon of war.

Positive female role models (and not the kind whose beating a guy up) are hard to come by. Usually ploys of conformity for reliable demographical behavior in buying and voting.

The Great Theme Music

[Anonymous Coward]

Television adaptations of comic books have left us with some truly great musical TV themes:

1. Batman
2. Wonder Woman
3. Spider-Man

Have I missed any?

Re:The Great Theme Music

[Hucko]

no, but I sure did... *shudder*

Hip and edgy...

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

How is the comics business doing? Still trying to be hip and edgy, but saddled with a failing business model?

Re:Hip and edgy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... we are talking about the comics industry, not the music industry.

Re:Hip and edgy...

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

So? You think people dont scan them and upload them all the time? It is arguably just as easy to download a comic as it is to drive to a store and buy it.

Re:Hip and edgy...

[aussie_a]

They are actually adapting.

A female point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

Superman is flying around the world looking for villains, while he discover that Wonder Woman is laying on a grass field, completely naked and legs open. He thinks "this is my occasion, she always said no to me" and using his super-speed, penetrates her like this: ba-dang! and then flies away. At that point, the invisible man says - ouch! what a pain in the ass!

Re:A female point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

errr.... http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/T9QCKGAQ0OABTORAS

Invisible man would be jerking off all by his lonesome... that kind of shit no sane person with both eyes open would want to touch.

On the rag makes it to the cartoon books

[Anonymous Coward]

'bout time we get to see the REAL wonder woman, one who half the month is bitchin' about nothin' and the other half is out screwing every pecker she can

ugogrrl

Wonder Woman Turns Feminist

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, Please! Now Wonder Woman is going to turn into some feminist claiming oppression by the male race ...

rhymes with french toast

[Anonymous Coward]

FFfffffffffFFFFfffffffffffffFffffffff
ppPpppPPPPPPpppppppppppPpppppppppp

FROST IT BITCHES

Cooking

[Tweekster]

Makes perfect sense, she really should be cooking and cleaning. and as another poster mentioned, skimpy bikini is preferable.

Why do women wear white on their wedding day?
so the dishwasher matches the oven

Re:Cooking

[the honger]

...I take it this will happen once a month...publication...

Re:Cooking

[c6gunner]

Next time you find yourself wondering why no woman will sleep with you, refer back to this comment.

Re:Cooking

[Anonymous Coward]

Why doesn't a woman need to wear a watch?
There's a clock on the stove.

No, they do exist.

[rjh]

In 1993 I was a freshman at a large university. I saw a fellow student staggering under a double armload of textbooks, and I did precisely what I would do for any student in a fellow situation: I opened the door. The fact this student was female had no bearing on my decision. In return for this, I got a glare and then a shouted "You know, it's because of domineering, overbearing males like you that one in four college women is raped!" Then she stormed off and found another entrance to the building, just so she could avoid the door I opened for her.

But wait, she's not the caricature the far-right draws of the militant feminist. She was just a jerk. Women can be jerks as easily as men.

A few years ago I was talking to a Women's Studies professor at Florida State and I related this story. I also mentioned how angry I had been at the time, still was, to be lumped in with rapists just because I opened a door for someone who had a double armload of books. This professor listened, considered her words very carefully, and then said clearly I needed to take her introductory Women's Studies course so that I could understand the jerk's "context". I said I didn't really care about her context, it was a stupid comparison to make, and the hate directed at me was entirely undeserved and uncivilized. "Yes, but that's the point, you see," she explained to me patiently. "You've never opened your eyes and thought about what sort of life experiences could make her react in such a way, or the actions you did which provoked this response. You only care about your own male-oriented view and undercutting the validity of her life experience." (I am not quoting her exactly, but I am quoting her pretty darn close. It's been a few years, but the outrageousness of the dialog has made it stick in my memory very clearly.)

She went on for about another ten minutes before I had enough and stormed away.

The woman in 1993 was just a jerk. The Florida State Women's Studies prof who defended her and not once expressed a sentiment of "yes, she was a jerk"? She was the right-wing caricature of a feminazi.

Fortunately, people like her seem to be rare. At least, I've never found one outside of a Women's Studies department. (And I've met one Women's Studies prof since then who characterized the Florida State prof as "what a bitch!", which did my heart no end of good.)

Re:No, they do exist.

[rednip]

I got a glare and then a shouted "You know, it's because of domineering, overbearing males like you that one in four college women is raped!"

So a 5 second reaction from a girl who might have emotional problems proves that these women exist. Well, ok then. Furthermore, a conversation where you presented yourself as a victim, didn't go over so well:

You've never opened your eyes and thought about what sort of life experiences could make her react in such a way, or the actions you did which provoked this response. You only care about your own male-oriented view and undercutting the validity of her life experience.

Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it? (I didn't think so)

The original poster laid a scathing attack on a artist for her significant accomplishment. Those kind of attacks against women success are far more common and, sadly, accepted. I won't, but you seem to.

Re:No, they do exist.

[bombshelter13]

The point is that if the girl carrying the books would have reacted any differently to a female who'd attempted to help her with the door*, then her reaction was inappropriate. Regardless of any life experiences she may have had, her reaction was sexist and uncalled for. No possible (or impossible but theoretically describable) life experience could make this action non-sexist. This is not to say that her life experiences do not have value, it is to say that the value of her life experience (whatever that may be) and the appropriateness (is that a word) of her choice of reaction are in no way connected. * Before anyone jumps on my saying 'how do you know she wouldn't have said the same thing to a female who'd helped her, well, the rather gender specific nature of the words in her reaction leaves me to believe she would have taken a third option. If you honestly, seriously, believe she would have reacted identically, keeping in mind that reacting identically requires her refer to the female assisting her as an 'overbearing man', then I cannot argue with you.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have spit in her face. She's a bad guy, like a nazi or someone breaking into your home to rape your daughter.

Spewing ideology like drunk, sex and regret should tell you everything.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bending over backwards and patronizing offers the path of least resistance and does the most unsaid harm.

You probably made her feel obligated to rush and she beaked off using the most readily available 'advice'.

Re:No, they do exist.

[toiletsalmon]

"So a 5 second reaction from a girl who might have emotional problems proves that these women exist. Well, ok then."

Yes, I believe it does prove that she was a "Feminist Ball Buster". She was hostile and showed aggression towards a man for no real reason so to speak, and then insulted him BECAUSE he was a man. That seems rather feminist to me, and I think it was pretty obvious that she was, indeed "busting his balls". I'm glad we agree on that :)

"Furthermore, a conversation where you presented yourself as a victim, didn't go over so well:"

Same thing here. She was taking a "feminist" position here. Maybe she wasn't "busting his balls" per se, but that was feminist jibba-jabba if I've ever heard it.

The problem with many (not all, many) feminists is that they really don't give a damn about empowering women (which I'm all for BTW). They've got their own agenda that has to do with taking power away from the "rich white man" and then using it to "get even" with him for all the bad things that he's done. On the one hand, that might not be such a bad idea, but on the other hand swapping one abusive "master" for an abusive "mastress" isn't really what I'd call progress, and it certainly isn't in the spirit of equality. At least what I would call equality.

Granted, the aforementioned professor wasn't THAT extreme in her beliefs, but she was on the other side of the same page because what she was basically saying is that the "book girl" deserved some special type of consideration because her genitals are on the inside. Special treatment and equality are usually mutually exclusive.

If any man said that men should bet treated differently just because his genitals are on the outside of his body, most people would say that he was a chauvinistic jerk. Why should it be any different for women?

Re:No, they do exist.

[c6gunner]

Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it?

From the PP:

"The woman in 1993 was just a jerk. The Florida State Women's Studies prof who defended her and not once expressed a sentiment of 'yes, she was a jerk'? She was the right-wing caricature of a feminazi."

You've attempted not only to defend the original sexist jerk, but you've also attempted to defend the professor who was defending her. Congrats, Red, you fit the description of "right-wing caricature of a femenazi" even better than that prof did.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats, Red, you fit the description of "right-wing caricature of a femenazi" even better than that prof did. Culture of fear and hate, you've been brought up with it from birth, I bet. !goodluckwiththat.

Re:No, they do exist.

[freeweed]

And there are some men out there (not all, some) who think that women are their toys, and beat the shit out of them every night.

But you don't see me going on some page-long diatribe trying desperately to prove they exist, and furthermore, explaining their motivations.

Yes folks, news flash - bizarre extremes of humanity exist. Typically in very small numbers. It's when you hop up on your soapbox trying to act personally offended about it that people start to wonder about your motivations.

The point of this sub-thread is seriously lost on me.

Re:No, they do exist.

[jb523]

I think you should have taken that class.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but if he was honestly trying to help the person (and it sounded like he was), then it was completely fucking out of place for the woman to flip out because he was a guy and she was a girl. THATS the point. If he wasn't helping her because she was a girl, but her fucked up sense of victimization read that into his intentions, then she was every bit the caricature of a feminist bitch that the right-wing has portrayed them to be.

And every Women's Studies person I know (professor and student alike) subscribes to this same twisted worldview that reads every interaction between men and women as an attempted power play.

Fuck them. Sometimes people are just trying to be polite.

Re:No, they do exist.

[rpillala]

I think context is the perfect explanation for both of these people. Women do live in a different larger context than men, and aren't as free to have the context redefined from moment to moment. I guess that's the line of thinking anyway. Your friend from 1993 should have reacted to the context of "it would have been difficult to get through this door with a double armload of books," but instead reacted to "men treat women like they're helpless." Domineering though? I'm gonna go with no. Like with most jerk behavior, it comes from insecurity. The women's studies professor has spent too much time in her head meditating on this to realize that it's not a valid way to assign blame. You personally aren't responsible for any of the way 1993 was treated in her past. She had no call to treat you that way, but women in the abstract do have some claims against men in the abstract. The freedom from a larger context in which people make assumptions about you is surely a characteristic of a (social) majority. I can relate to this because may parents are from India and I'm nonwhite. It used to be that in every group of people I was the standin for all Indians. Meaning when I met someone new they asked me if I knew their doctor or if I worshipped a cow. They weren't talking to me, they were talking to the generic case of "Indian person." Being forced to always be the ambassador from India and explain Hinduism and caste gets old very fast. It still happens now, and with people I've known for years. They see me and immediately start talking about their new Indian neighbor or colleague or brother-in-law. Or they hear that I'm vegetarian and start talking at length about their favorite meat foods from India. Whoops I'm venting sorry. I don't go off on these people but I sure feel like it sometimes, as you can see. Does that make me a jerk? I don't know.

Once when I was in high school I was working at a mall store and someone came in and angrily demanded to know whether I spoke English. I had read about discrimination before but never had it applied directly to my face. Until then I had never thought about it happening to me. Since then it's been very hard for me not to consider whether I'm being treated differently because of race. For white people I'm sure this almost never enters their thinking because by and large there are no assumptions about behaviors and competencies (and deficiencies more to the point) based on whiteness. I couldn't say for sure since I've never been white. For white people I think it most often comes from having an ethnic name, but really I don't know.

So I think that's what women's studies professor 1 meant by context, but she should have known that you can't dismiss people's experiences when trying to make them see other people's experiences. College professors aren't always teachers inside.

Maybe next time check and see what the books are first :)

Re:No, they do exist.

[identity0]

You know, you don't really know if her actions are based on past experience with people who really were condescending jerks.

One time at a computer lab, a black woman sat down next to me, and I thought I ws being polite by moving my bag out of the way and closer to me. But she interpreted it as something else, and she snorted, "I'm not gonna take your bag!" and started using the computer.

It would not surprise me if other people had acted like she was going to steal their stuff, and she had gotten more or less used to that mind set. It would then be hard to imagine that someone is doing something for your sake, instead of theirs.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you a poor troll or are you really this ignorant in real life? If it's the latter I'd suggest seeking help for your warped world-view before you explode in a shower of self-righteous bile.
I'm guessing you've been called a feminazi, probably by a woman, which only served to push your head further up your backside. She may or may not have been correct but you certainly have the potential to become the caricature you rail against.

Re:No, they do exist.

[RespekMyAthorati]

Correct. As an academic myself, I have found that all of the feminist nut-case extremists are:

1. students or faculty members in either English or Women's Studies
2. gay
3. man-haters

Unfortunately, these extremists seem to get all the press, unlike most regular feminists, who are just women seeking a more level playing field.

Re:No, they do exist.

[obender]

You know, it's because of domineering, overbearing males like you that one in four college women is raped!" Was she complaining about being the one in four or being one of the neglected three?

Re:No, they do exist.

[TobyWong]

I've experienced similar variations on your door opening story on multiple occasions. I hold the door open all the time if someone is coming behind me, regardless of what gender they are. Once in a blue moon a woman will refuse to accept the courtesy. All you can really do is shrug your shoulders and walk away. Their hangups, not mine.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

But think of all the women who are now CEO's of major corporations thanks to the selfless actions of this one girl - refusing to walk through an opened door and accusing you of being a rapist isn't rude, it's EMPOWERING and women the world over thank her.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am white but most my years in school I was the biggest computer geek. Computer geek wasn't good status back then so I suppose as an outsider I gravitated to other social outsiders (which most the immigrant students also were.) So I surrounded myself with immigrants.
In a somewhat similar situation; my immigrant friends would use me as the generic white guy or generic american guy in a somewhat similar situation. Mostly they thought I was the expert of my race and culture but often it would include stereotyped presumptions about me as well.

I replied because I found a similarity between that and the computer geek/nerd status; once people found out I was a computer geek it was a similar situation to the race & culture, its not as much today as people don't have the perceptions about computers they once had. You still have people who assume you know everything there is to know about anything computer related and ask similar ignorant questions. I guess I thought making the connection to computer people would help to better express it. Oh, and 'nerds' have mild discrimination too; especially in american high schools.

It all comes down to lack of exposure which results in ignorance; doesn't seem to matter what the dividing factor is.

On the flip side, I was raised by a feminist and so I treated women as equals for most my life. They do not really want to be equal! I did much better when I treated men like men and women like women. American culture isn't ready to meet the ideals they think they are following. A "metrosexual" seems to be the acceptable middle-ground but I'd never try that.

Teachers are not always teachers either. Professors are also not educated in education.

Re:No, they do exist.

[BeanThere]

Give it up already and admit you were wrong and that such women exist, and stop attacking and blaming in a pitbull-like manner anyone who confirms that they do --- God, what is wrong with you? --- while most aren't, I've met a few women over the years who definitely ARE like this, in quite high up places out here in the real world (e.g. in publishing).

And don't complain that somebody was "bullying" this woman who just happened to succeed - it wasn't just a random attack suggesting she's PC just because she's a woman, rather, this woman came in SPECIFICALLY on a *platform* of complaining about how sexist the traditional writing has been - it's her STATED AGENDA to rectify this.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's been very hard for me not to consider whether I'm being treated differently because of race. For white people I'm sure this almost never enters their thinking because by and large there are no assumptions about behaviors and competencies (and deficiencies more to the point) based on whiteness. I couldn't say for sure since I've never been white.

Speaking only for myself: I think about it all the time, but in a different way.

If there are 2 people waiting to be helped, and I get asked first, was the darker-skinned person next to me the victim of discrimination? If I don't say anything, I could be the willing tool of racism; if I do, I could be characterized as a domineering jerk.

Just as you want to get your fair shake, I want to know that I've gotten where I am by what I did, not my skin color and sex. (Maybe that's why some of us are driven to do other things which the business establishment doesn't seem to like, like growing our hair long, and dressing grungy.) Unfairness hurts us all, to some extent.

Or they hear that I'm vegetarian and start talking at length about their favorite meat foods from India. Whoops I'm venting sorry.

No prob. Trying to get people to understand vegetarianism (or any other dietary choice) is often hard for all of us, regardless of race. It's been 10 years and my mom still doesn't get it.

Re:No, they do exist.

[ProteusQ]

Your post did _my_ heart no end of good. After hearing the message of "It's YOUR fault, you damn Christian white male!" one too many times, I question the point of Women's Studies departments at all, except to keep gender-based Guilt alive like some creation of Frankenstein's. Nice to hear you ran into a WS prof who has a brain and a heart.

Re:No, they do exist.

[Stormwatch]

WTF man... if I was in your place, I'd have gone THIS IS SPARTA on the 1993 bitch.

Re:No, they do exist.

[rjh]

I would suggest reading Christina Hoff Summers' Who Stole Feminism? sometime. It's a well-written book authored by a women's studies professor who takes to task some of the extreme elements of the field. If you can find it, it's plenty worth reading, and might bring you some more hope.

I will sit down and listen to an old-school equity feminist like Summers any time. I have no patience for the new school of gender feminism.

Re:No, they do exist.

[JohnFluxx]

Hmm, I do tend to do exactly that when I meet an Indian person. Discuss the caste system, Indian food, religion, etc. I can see that it can get repetitive, but people are just curious. What would be point in asking a non-Indian about the caste system?
I really don't see it as a racist action or anything. People ask me about holograms when I tell them that's what I work on. It's called making conversation. Yeah it can be a bit boring to explain each time, but mostly I'm glad people are interested.

And, I gotta ask, do you worship cows? ;-)

Re:No, they do exist.

[ProteusQ]

Thanks!

In other words...

[SanityInAnarchy]

It's a boy's club because it's a boy's club?

That is, there are more men writing comics because there are more boys reading comics?

I mean, not that I mind it -- I do feel that soap opera emo trash doesn't help anyone, and I am a guy, after all. But I wonder, is there something about the medium itself that would prevent soap opera emo trash from succeeding?

typical

[rednip]

When attacking others for their intolerance or prejudice, it helps to not be showing your own prejudice in the same breath. Not even going to start with the "crawl out of your parent's basement" comment Awe, the crass trash talking fool, all got his feelings hurt, I'm sorry :(. But perhaps before you lecture me on my manners, I believe that you owe the comic book lady an sincere apology. Otherwise your words ring hollow. You just can't take what you so freely dish out, how typical.

Oh, I guarantee that women like that exist. There is simply too much diversity in the world for them not to.

Perhaps, but you will never meet one (feminist BB that is), and one is extremely more likely to run across a man who is a rapist, murder, a liar, 'insecure about their own masculinity' or living in their parents basement.

Re:typical

[Hucko]

Really? Perhaps feminist BB are just more common in Australia.

Re:typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Really you are the insecure one. Here is a nice gender neutral phrase for you. Go fuck yourself, no one gives a shit. Thanks for playing though.

Re:typical

[keeboo]

Perhaps, but you will never meet one (feminist BB that is), and one is extremely more likely to run across a man who is a rapist, murder, a liar, 'insecure about their own masculinity' or living in their parents basement.

Oh, please.. quit this crap.
Feminists always come with arguments on how women are the default victims and stuff, and assume that women have no issues whatsoever.
When feminists speak, there's always a logical explanation for a woman's actions. But a man's actions always fit in the rape-murder-domination-masculine_insecurity category.

And this 'masculinity insecurity' argument is so tired is not even an argument. Nowadays it's simply a way women, ones with issues, found to offend men.

Re:typical

[rednip]

Feminists always come with arguments on how women are the default victims and stuff, and assume that women have no issues whatsoever.When feminists speak, there's always a logical explanation for a woman's actions. But a man's actions always fit in the rape-murder-domination-masculine_insecurity category.

I didn't say that there aren't any psyco bitches, trust me, there are plenty of them and most don't even call themselves feminists. However that wasn't germane to the conversation. Nor did I say that all men are like that, I'm a guy and that's not me. I just said that one is more likely to find a man (or a woman for that matter) of that ilk than the above described militant feminist. Hell, I've only seen them on TV, the loud mouths always end up on TV, it's good for ratings.

Hell, it still amazes me that you guys seem to be making excuses for the original troll, somehow pretending that he had a point and was right to bully a woman on her significant accomplishment. !Nice.

Re:typical

[Anonymous Coward]

not really, your validating her emotions for the cause of the all important self-esteem and encouraging her to misinterpret her local environment.

Re:typical

[Headw1nd]

What orginal poster/troll? You replied to a guy talking about Wonder Woman in a pantsuit with a rant about militant feminists. Did you mean to reply to some other post?

Re:typical

[SanityInAnarchy]

Awe, the crass trash talking fool, all got his feelings hurt, I'm sorry.... I believe that you owe the comic book lady an sincere apology.

Who, me? Are you serious?

Maybe you were talking about this guy, who has since been modded -1 Troll. But that is not me. I entered this conversation with this comment, which has since been modded +5 Insightful, and I really, honestly don't see how it was "crass" or "trash talking".

But maybe I'm wrong. If I've said something crass, can you point it out for me?

You just can't take what you so freely dish out, how typical.

That actually sounds more like you right now. Defending those poor feminists from stereotypes, but when I point out your flaw, you attack.

I honestly did not intend for this to be a fight. I meant for you to take a step back and learn something about yourself. Not for me, but because it would make you a more effective person.

Perhaps, but you will never meet one (feminist BB that is), and one is extremely more likely to run across a man who is a rapist, murder, a liar, 'insecure about their own masculinity' or living in their parents basement.

Stereotypes all the same. You're far more likely to run across decent, well-meaning, mostly well-adjusted people than you are to run across rapist, murderers, or people living in their parents' basement.

I actually don't know anyone who lives in their parents' basement. Nor do I know of anyone who does. Maybe I'll never meet one?

Wonder Dyke?

[Anonymous Coward]

So does this mean that Wonder Woman is now going to become a man-hating dyke that blames men for all of her problems?

HAHAHAHAHahahaha

[geekoid]

"William Marsden created Wonder Woman as a role model of what he considered feminine strengths."

He created her because he liked to dominate women with bondage. Not exactly an example of feminine strength.

Intersting my ass.

Re:HAHAHAHAHahahaha

[Anonymous Coward]

Feminism was about the right to choose, not just to be like men. Some women like to be dominated and bound. Do you, the big strong man, need to protect them from themselves?

Re:HAHAHAHAHahahaha

[tverbeek]

Marston's view of women as a lot more complicated than you seem to think. It certainly wasn't a simple case of liking to dominate women (a misconception that says more about the conceiver than it does about him). He actually believed that women were better than men, and wanted men to submit to their loving domination.

Re:HAHAHAHAHahahaha

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong, feminism was about misandry and superiority over men. And still is. Reverse chauvinism.

Simone on Wonder Woman? News from April, 2007.

[JoshDM]

Slow News Day at Slashdot if you're covering something that was announced almost a year ago.

With any luck

[geekoid]

The next story will be about a foreigner and we will get to hear some jokes about them, preferably a light bulb joke.

Jackass.

Re:With any luck

[Anonymous Coward]

How many foreigners does it take to change a lightbulb?

gee, they have lighbulbs over there?

breaking news... about 2 months ago

[Lalo Martins]

come on, doesn't anybody here read comics? CBR? Wizard? Wow.

Re:breaking news... about 2 months ago

[Khyber]

Goes to show you just how much of /.'s population truly are geeks.

*goes to grab his latest Wizard to check price on an original, mint, 1st edition M:TG Black Lotus*

To sum up

[dbIII]

Scared people react badly sometimes. I suspect that's what the academic was talking about with "context". It sounds like quite a harmless act intending to be helpful caused a bit of association there and got the reaction. Misunderstandings often for incedibly stupid reasons happen sometimes just due to eye contact - don't worry about it and don't assume you can define somebodies personality from one bad reaction.

where's the tenderness?

[rednip]

Still, no compassion for this girl you scared, and it's fairly clear that you scared her. Yes, it's likely she might have acted different if some girl ran up. However, just imagine a shy girl, first semester (maybe) in a large University , away from home, maybe just out of the 'date rape discussion' they force on every freshmen, walking back to her dorm, minding her own business. Random guy comes up and without any introduction get into her personal space. Then she gives a quick not even half though explanation, about why she got jumpy, but that proves she is a militant feminist.

What you should have done was announce yourself, saying perhaps 'let me get that for you'. I do it all the time, and a couple of times I've had them size me up for a second, in particular when I've blindsided them. I sincerely hope that someone doesn't judge you as harshly. Dude, you really need to take a fresh look at both of those conversations, I'll be that you see them differently, if you step back from yourself.

Re:where's the tenderness?

[trytoguess]

Er... no, being told there's a 25% chance of rape is no excuse, especially when you're in campus during the day with at least some people who can hear you. If I start giving women special treatments in such situations then I'll be forcing myself to believe that women are inferior to men in some way, and frankly I don't want to do that. It'll be like me after hearing theft is rising, accusing someone of stealing when they help me say... pick up my wallet. She might have been scared, but her actions were inexcusable, no justification can change that.

Re:where's the tenderness?

[cp.tar]

Still, no compassion for this girl you scared, and it's fairly clear that you scared her.

It isn't clear to me. To me, she only sounds enraged. And opening a door for someone cannot be considered a hostile act.

And I know girls like that as well. They consider every kind of help from a guy chauvinistic and overbearing.

What you should have done was announce yourself, saying perhaps 'let me get that for you'.

Or he should have been a self-centered bastard and left her to struggle with the door herself.

That girl, to put it mildly, overreacted. Should enough girls overreact like that, you'll find that men will have stopped holding the doors to women altogether.

Oh, BTW. I haven't attended any Women Studies courses, but I have friends in my classes who have. I know no rabid feminists outside those classes, and very few normal girls in those classes.
Oh, and no guys either. On gay guy allegedly enrolled in one of those classes, but then dropped out. Go figure.

Re:where's the tenderness?

[mrbooze]

I haven't attended any Women Studies courses, but I have friends in my classes who have. I know no rabid feminists outside those classes, and very few normal girls in those classes.
Oh, and no guys either. On gay guy allegedly enrolled in one of those classes, but then dropped out. Go figure.

While attending film school, Joss Whedon's biggest concentration was gender studies and feminism.

P.O.V.

[themadplasterer]

Wonder Woman in a P.O.V.? That's hawt!

No, they do exist-Karma.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it? (I didn't think so)"

There's a subtlety I don't think you realize at work here. The myth of the perfect person. What's that? "But I didn't say that!" No you didn't...directly. The myth of the perfect person basically is..."I'm perfect...BUT!" With the "BUT" being replaced by some external agent whom blame (and negative consequences.) can be directed at.

Note I'm NOT avoiding the effects of others actions, but pointing out that if everyone took responsability of their (re)actions however inconsiquentual they might be. Ripple-effects would see to it that the good results wouldn't stay confined, and maybe the overall burden would be lesser.

Note that no one would ever says that avoiding exercise, and indulging in bad food habits is a better way to build a person, but we constantly try to avoid the weights that try our spiritual and moral muscles and eat an unhealthy mental and emotional diet and wonder why we're all out of shape for the inevitable hills an imperfect world offers.

Boilerplate

[Dobeln]

"the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity."

You would be more convincing if you left out at least the most tired of Nazi-Socialist-PC-ball-busting clichés.

this makes as much sense

[circletimessquare]

as a romance novel written from the point of view of the ridiculously sensitive male leads in the story:

"your tits are huge, let's shag"

yeah, that's going to sell romance novels

impossible proportioned female superheroes exist to satisfy the id of prepubescent boys. there is no female pov to these characters that has any meaning. they are stereotypical characters meant to satisfy male views about solving problems by fighting. women have their own fantasy fiction with impossible male characters meant to satisfy female views about the glory of courtship with a great guy

why mess with these shallow fantasies? nothing is improved, the value of the characters are just negated for their intended audiences

Re:this makes as much sense

[SamSim]

Comics aren't so much for prepubescent boys anymore. The target demographic has grown up considerably in the last few decades. It's twenty-somethings upwards now. Demands are more than just "shallow fantasies" now.

Re:this makes as much sense

[Anonymous Coward]

The target demographic has grown up considerably in the last few decades. It's twenty-somethings upwards who are still living in their parent's basement now.

There.. fixed that for you.

Re:this makes as much sense

[angus_rg]

Doesn't Larry Flint publish a monthly romance novel from the male's point of view? I believe it sells real well.

Hmmmmm, come to think of it, maybe you're right about why women are in comics. She still looked good, even if her costume consisted of blue star granny panties.

Culture of fear

[rednip]

Please tell me how the OP in this thread was somehow 'right'. People (including women) have been using the specter of the 'scary feminist' for so long it's gotten really old, but I'm sure that your glad that women can be random attacked in such manner. In particular when they dare to enter a male realm.

The problem with many (not all, many) feminists is that they really don't give a damn about empowering women (which I'm all for BTW)

Really? All for? Sounds to me that your tolerance only last until they speak up for themselves and express their own opinions. Of course you'd probably object if I called you a right wing tool, and while it might be fun do so, there is a chance that I'm not entirely right, but hey, you're quick to judge harshly, so I should as well.

They've got their own agenda that has to do with taking power away from the "rich white man" and then using it to "get even" with him for all the bad things that he's done.

So, these evil feminist are like the Black Panthers. Wow, f*****g culture of fear. The tell you of the most fringe elements of any movement, not even a complete picture, and you take it as gospel. Ditto heads, go figure.

Re:Culture of fear

[toiletsalmon]

I wouldn't say "scary feminist" as much as "extremist asshole", but I guess we just disagree about the validity of this so called specter.

Yes, I am all for anyone speaking up about whatever they please, as long as they're not an asshole about it. It just so happens that many of the self described "feminists" that _I_ have had to deal with were general assholes, but also assholes about topics with a feminist slant to them. Again, I guess we just see things differently.

I actually don't feel I'm a right wing tool because:
-I'm 30 and I haven't felt compelled to vote yet
-I'm not Caucasian
-I don't make more than $100K a year
-I'm not Christian
-I think Ronald Reagan was a tool himself
-I actually believe women should have the right to choose to have an abortion
-I think there is no valid excuse for women making noticeably less than men in a given field.

I might be a tool (I'll have to think about it), but I'm pretty sure I'm not a right wing tool.

Yes, the more extreme feminists (that I most certainly have met, that you say don't exist are very similar to the Black Panthers. And they are similar in the fact that they don't want "equality". They want "equality++" which we all know is not the same thing.

Re:Culture of fear

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the more extreme feminists (that I most certainly have met, that you say don't exist are very similar to the Black Panthers. And they are similar in the fact that they don't want "equality". They want "equality++" which we all know is not the same thing.

I didn't say that militant feminists don't exist, just the cartoon version alluded to in the first troll post (well besides people who are actually insane). I submit to you that one is much, much more likely to hear from right wing nut jobs than a militant feminist, (particularly on Slashdot, but really in all but a few places). One of the things that they have really done right for their 'cause' is to create a dialog where labels such as 'feminist' or 'liberal' can be replaced with 'n*gg*r', without even a change in tone. It is generally a one big straw man argument, which has been successfully placed in the public conscious, and people such as yourself unwittingly build validity for that bias.

Such rhetoric is attractive to many as the absolute knowledge that they claim is comforting to those who are struggling for understanding, whereas open minded people often grapple for nuances. I would suggest that the most militant of the feminist, if you have ever really interacted with such a 'beast', are people who are searching for absolutes, and should be treated not as thinking individuals, but as the same sort which are attracted to cults (or Fox News :). Ascribing their values as feminist is akin to calling Republicans Fascists. Sure it's true in some cases, but it's not for which they stand, even if some of the talking points are the same.

-I actually believe women should have the right to choose to have an abortion Well, good for you, personally I think that they shouldn't (except for extreme cases) exercise that right, as I see it as immoral. However, making it illegal violates a woman's medical rights, so I am for a woman's right to choose, but only in legislative sense.

-I'm 30 and I haven't felt compelled to vote yet

It's a duty of an American citizen to vote. Fortunately there is no penalty for skipping the polls, except a marginally smaller chance of getting a government which works for you. Frankly, sometimes I'm surprise that many don't have a bumper sticker that says' "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for anyone", or more properly "I'm too lazy to interact with my neighbors, if even for 10 minutes". Sometimes people complain that negative campaigning turns them off, if so then vote for the least negative, if that is too hard to figure out, then vote for the challenger, etc. These days I think voting Democratic is a fine default, but that could change, as I was once a republican, and I've always have had a 'crush' on the libertarians, and would consider switching if they had good viable candidates.

***(If it seems as though I have a lot of parentheses, one should note that I am just trying to be as perfectly clear as I can, as if I say even something like, 'the sun will come out tomorrow' someone will say 'no, it might not')

Only on Slashdot

[rednip]

A +5 for a long winded story about two chance encounters with women who didn't say 'nice things'.

I like slashdot, but it says something that when someone defends an innocent woman against a baseless attack by insulting the poster, this post gets moderated better. One gets tired claiming every little expect ion when responding to a troll, and for the record one might note that . Then this guy jumps in and says 'really, I've seen one', I wasn't talking about unicorns, I was talking of a fringe woman's political movement and took a good guess that the OP has never met a real one, and certainly not well enough to understand her issues. Talk radio is full of blow hards who use such talk for their own advantage, and one doesn't have to go any father than this story to see it's affect.

Usually Slashdot is much more reasonable, but apparently not when it comes to a woman's right not be randomly insulted. I know that in the end you were just trying to be nice. But trust me, you scared her, and she blurted out the first excuse that came to mind, the other girl recognized it, and was likely pissed that you didn't see it.

Re:Only on Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

The first girl was rude, and the second refused to admit she was being rude for ideological reasons. That's the problem.

Re:Only on Slashdot

[LoverOfJoy]

This is slashdot. Even people who agree with you will point out if you overstate your case, bring up an incorrect side comment, or simply use "their" instead of "there". It doesn't always mean they are defending the parent or grandparent or great grandparent poster.

Just like the guy doesn't know why the girl acted like a jerk (and yes, she can act like a jerk on an off moment even if she isn't a jerk in her "normal life") it's also true that you may be jumping to conclusions about why all these other guys (or perhaps girls) seem to be jumping to a jokesters defense.

Personally, I got the impression that the original poster wasn't making an attack on the woman who landed a wonder woman job but poking a little fun at the feminist caricature. Perhaps it was uncalled for...but I didn't see it all that much more uncalled for than when some poster mentions a girlfriend and a half dozen people pipe in with some "humorous" comment about living in a basement or "pics or it didn't happen" or other such at male nerd caricatures. Again, doesn't make it right, but again we can't assume we know why a particular person made such a joke.

I really don't know that I'd agree that one type is so much more common than another, either. Girls that are jerks and use a cliche feminist line while being a jerk aren't exactly scarce where I've lived. Neither are guys who seem to have hygeine issues and make some comment about their mom that make it sound like he lives downstairs from her. We tend not to delve deeper with both of those kinds of people to get at the truth of their lives and understand them and figure out if our assumptions are correct simply because that process is so often an unpleasant one.

now cue the posts about how I misspelled hygiene and point out some superfluous flaw in my reasoning. This is slashdot. Enjoy it for what it is. :)

Heh

[Moraelin]

Heh... so basically you're saying that it started as a pervert's and misogynist's substitute for porn. Even the sophistry about a female's role and strength being reduced to obedience and modesty isn't entirely a new philosophical concept, it's pretty much standard misogynistic stuff.

Well, gee, I guess you illustrate perfectly why women didn't really take her as a role model.

Astounding !

[rednip]

She might have been scared, but her actions were inexcusable, no justification can change that.

Astounding! I dare you to put that in your sig. Do you want to be held accountable for that?

What if I told you that there is a 25% chance of getting pounded (unwilling) in the ass? I'll bet dollars to a dough nut that you'll think 'don't ass fuck me', and maybe even say it when presented unexpectedly with an event associated with it. I've said similar thoughts with nearly every post to this thread, but you'all seem to hoping to validate 'your' anger toward women. Slashdot on a late Saturday is weird.

Re:Astounding !

[trytoguess]

No, I'd think that if some guy was trying to pound me in the ass in that situation we'd be making enough noise (cause one of us will be yelling in pain very soon in that senario) for me to worry about rape, assault yes. I'd understand if she said it to some guy trying to get her drunk, I'd possibly even understand it if it was dark (it'd still be rude, but then I can at least get the fear). In the current situation she at best acted totally irrationally and needs to apologize.

Most cases of college rape are done by people the female knows. I do wish people would remember rape in any form requires you to have easy access to a person, so the chances of a stranger trying to sexually use you, is relativly slim (not to say one shouldn't be wary of course).

Incidentally, why do you assume I'm angry with women instead of this one female who for all we know doesn't exist? It's rather hard to be mad against a sex I consider equal to my own, but perhaps you think differently.

Re:Astounding !

[It'sYerMam]

What if I told you that there is a 25% chance of getting pounded (unwilling) in the ass? I'll bet dollars to a dough nut that you'll think 'don't ass fuck me', and maybe even say it when presented unexpectedly with an event associated with it.

If you associate opening a door with being raped then that's not the fault of the door-opener. The wallet example is a good one. If you pick up someone's wallet (or other important/valuable item) and hand it to them, you would surely be justifiably offended if they yelled 'Thief!' snatched it from your hands and ran away. You would be even more offended if they incorporated some prejudiced slur into their justification for calling you a thief - be it a reference to your gender, race or something else. Whatever experiences that person has had, they are still a jerk, or at least perhaps paranoid to the point of illness, if they associate a helpful action with malicious intent.

Re:Astounding !

[Anonymous Coward]

Most cases of college rape are done by people the female knows.

True, but 'fear is the mind killer', and people should be given understanding when presented with unexpected events.

Incidentally, why do you assume I'm angry with women instead of this one female who for all we know doesn't exist?

The real questions are "why are you 'angry' at her?", "why are her alleged actions inexcusable?". Even better than putting it in your sig, go ahead and print out the entire thread, right from the first troll post to this one, show it to every woman in your life. Your mother, sisters, daughters, girlfriend, wife, wife's girl friends, coworkers (if you dare), etc. Perhaps one of them will be utterly outraged at the side you took, if not most of them.

Honestly, my anger and sarcasm was more pronounce than needed, but the first post I responded to really pissed me off. Then the rest of you jokers, kept making excuses and using right wing nut job claims of feminism run amok. I'm not proud of all of my responses for this thread, some of my messages lack the editing I typically fuss over (way too tired), but I believe that my overall message has been one of defending women who I've seen insulted without reason. Real men defend women, not because they are weak, but because we are strong, besides there isn't enough women on this site to speak up in the first place.

Re:Astounding !

[Anonymous Coward]

I would tell you that 81% of statistics are made up and that
it is 100% sure that your statistic is among the made up ones.

Re:Astounding !

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but 'fear is the mind killer', and people should be given understanding when presented with unexpected events. Since when was opening doors for someone whose hands are full unexpected events? Only a sheltered person, or an idiot would think that, and I'm not about assume all women, (or men) are either. By insisting an (very) irrational emotion is a valid excuse however, you've posted one of the few real insults to women in this thread.

The real questions are "why are you 'angry' at her?", "why are her alleged actions inexcusable?". Even better than putting it in your sig, go ahead and print out the entire thread, right from the first troll post to this one, show it to every woman in your life. Your mother, sisters, daughters, girlfriend, wife, wife's girl friends, coworkers (if you dare), etc.

Heh, funny you mention my mother. She's one of the strongest people I've ever known in my life, and has a pathological hatred for stupidity. A woman like her would piss my mother way more than it irked me (can't get too angry at a story with no citations yes? please assume I've some logic, but no thesaurus in me), since such knee jerk reactions only perpetuate the stereotype that women can't control their emotions to allow rational thought, and that's an extreme pet peeve of hers. The rest of the females in my life vary in many ways, but the ones closest to me would agree that calling someone a rapist in that scenario is at best idiotic, and apologizing for your own stupidity is good manners. Perhaps I've stronger women in my life then you do.

Real men defend women, not because they are weak, but because we are strong, besides there isn't enough women on this site to speak up in the first place. Let me reword your logic, women are weaker than men and therefore need protection. After all if they were strong as we were why would they need protection? That's disgusting, we should be empowering women to overcome whatever... whatnots they have so that they may protect themselves, not coddling them. Women cannot accept anymore help then men get otherwise they are not equal to us. The way I see it real men uplift women (if necessary) since that benefits females the most. Weak men submit to their primitive protective instincts and make sure a woman will never be as strong as they are. Sexist at best, cowardly at worst. Then again you never claimed to be feminist, or believed in its ideals...

Re:Astounding !

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand. Which AC were you? Or did you later decide to go AC and if so, why?

Re:Astounding !

[spun]

Slashdot on a late Saturday is weird. All the guys who can't get dates and thus hate women hang out at Slashdot on Saturday nights. There's a lot of misogyny here at the best of times. Remember, physical touch and affection is vital to sanity. Men's oppression says we can only get that through sex with a woman. So sex and women take on a far greater importance than they would otherwise have. That's where the desperation and anger come from.

On the flip side, remember that most oppression comes from within oneself. Most of the rest comes from within one's peer group. Ever watch how women treat each other? My wife is a very strong intelligent woman, but a little overweight. Who do you think gives her more shit about that? Who do you think puts her down more, men or women? Men love the shape of her body, she's got nice curves. Women try to 'put her in her place.'

Maybe if feminists spent as much energy stamping out women's oppression among women as they do blaming men, we wouldn't be at this impasse.

Re:Astounding !

[Anonymous Coward]

She's one of the strongest people I've ever known in my life, and has a pathological hatred for stupidity. Please, then show her your efforts. Of course women tend to be protective of their men, in particular their children, but I suspect that if she is fair minded, you'll find yourself on the receiving end of a conversation you never expected to hear.

Let me reword your logic, women are weaker than men and therefore need protection No, please don't set up the straw man. Men and women are different, we think differently, not on average as differently as the variations from within our sex, but still differently. Ironically, one of the characteristic often mis attributed to feminists by right wing nut jobs is the the 'equal at all costs' approach.

Sexist at best, cowardly at worst. Then again you never claimed to be feminist, or believed in its ideals... Nope, I'm not a feminist, but some of it I do support [like bra-burning! :) ]. So you believe that it's cowardly to defend those who cannot defend themselves, interesting rhetoric. I never said that the scarred girl was right, I just laid out what I saw as a reasonable explanation for her words that were (I believe) more logical than a chance encounter with a militant feminist which that poster claimed. What is surprising and sad is the number of vehement responses damning what I see as a poor scarred girl.

The way I see it real men uplift women (if necessary) since that benefits females the most.

I didn't say that they don't do that. Real men have many responsibilities, I shouldn't have to list every responsibility when I mention one of them. Another straw man argument, you seem to be fond of them. Also, my ideas of a 'Real man' are my own expectations, which I don't always live up to, but I do try. When I don't, I try to make up for it, when I cannot, I just take it as a life lesson and move on.

Weak men submit to their primitive protective instincts and make sure a woman will never be as strong as they are.

That is the side you have chosen. Look at this thread, the original troll post, which you have never even acknowledged, is a scathing attack against a woman's accomplishments. After that, it was all about you guys insisting that militant feminist are 'real', and expecting contrition from me for defending (I'll say it again for effect) a poor scarred girl caught up in a moment of fear. We all have fear sometimes, expecting perfect response under such circumstances is silly at best.

Only a sheltered person, or an idiot would think that, and I'm not about assume all women, (or men) are either. By insisting an (very) irrational emotion is a valid excuse however, you've posted one of the few real insults to women in this thread. So I'm an idiot for calling for understanding. Empathy for others is the most human of characteristics, however some lack it, men more often than women. In the end, I hope that your apparent lack of empathy is a function of internet abstraction and male competition (always wanting to be right), rather than the efforts of a budding psychopath.

Re:Astounding !

[trytoguess]

Please, then show her your efforts. Of course women tend to be protective of their men, in particular their children, but I suspect that if she is fair minded, you'll find yourself on the receiving end of a conversation you never expected to hear. I already showed my mother, she agrees with me, happy? If you're REALLY curious as to what women would think of this feel free to post this on random female communities. I imagine some would be pissed at my imprecise wording, but still think said woman was a bitch, or at least wrong in some way.

No, please don't set up the straw man. Men and women are different, we think differently, not on average as differently as the variations from within our sex, but still differently. Ironically, one of the characteristic often mis attributed to feminists by right wing nut jobs is the the 'equal at all costs' approach.

You went further than stating we're different, you obviously stated we're stronger than women in some way shape or form, otherwise they don't need unique protection by men, especially not in a trivial situation like this one. Do tell me how I set up a strawman.

That is the side you have chosen. Look at this thread, the original troll post, which you have never even acknowledged, is a scathing attack against a woman's accomplishments. After that, it was all about you guys insisting that militant feminist are 'real', and expecting contrition from me for defending (I'll say it again for effect) a poor scarred girl caught up in a moment of fear. We all have fear sometimes, expecting perfect response under such circumstances is silly at best. I said nothing against the woman mentioned in the article, or militant feminism. Stop fucking claiming I did, cause I don't really care about either. I heard about Gail Simone months ago, and I don't read DC comics. I've nothing against women comic book writers in any case, and don't think "feminazis" have any real control over mainstream feminism.

Oy vey... dude I understand your pov. However, I also think the rationale is retarted. Notice the part where I stated when I might sympathize? Like I said the only reason to have fear in that senario is if your acting completly irrationally, and again apologizing for insulting someone after an irrational action is polite. I apply this rule on every male and female. You think becuase she might've had some crappy data shoved into her head we should be kinder. I disagree and wonder why you even make such an assumption. While we're at it I'll just assume she was just a man hating bitch, and a world weary senior. Just as vaild no?.

At this point we're starting to talk in circles. Feel free to always assume that women are mentally dainty when they blow up at ya for no apparant reason, and only deserve our sympathy. My mom and closest female friend send their rational non dainty FUs for that notion btw. They have their moments of stupid like we all do, but don't expect men/women to kow tow to irrational rudeness.

So I'm an idiot for calling for understanding. Empathy for others is the most human of characteristics, however some lack it, men more often than women. In the end, I hope that your apparent lack of empathy is a function of internet abstraction and male competition (always wanting to be right), rather than the efforts of a budding psychopath. In this precise situation, yes I lack sympathy. If you've fucking read my posts a bit close I've stated when I might have empathy (same situation only it's dark, etc). But continue to assume I'm a irredemable sociopath, if it make you feel any better.

Dead Men Walking

[Per Abrahamsen]

She wrote another "answer" rant called "Dead Men Walking", which selectively listed male heroes who had died and came back.

Her rants could probably be used in a textbook as an extreme example of biased sampling. They are extremely annoying to anyone with a science background, or people otherwise inclined to rational thought.

However, given her background as a hairdresser, one can maybe excuse the poor reasoning, and praise the clear prose. Too much logic is probably a handicap when writing superhero comics, if there is anything the superhero genre does not lend itself to, it is logic.

Actually, you illustrate another point

[Moraelin]

Actually, you're onto something there, but IMHO that quote really just illustrates the fact that men are more likely to relate to another man's view of women. It's because both have the same stereotypes and wishful-thinking ideas, while reality often tends to not quite fit that.

So, yes, if Jack Nicholson describes women as the men's stereotype of women, including the illogical and unaccountable part, other men will find it a perfect portrayal of women.

It's not even something new. In medieval Japan the justification of why only men are allowed to play women roles in Kabuki theatre was... that supposedly women are too close to feminity to play it accurately. At first read it sounds like a major WTF. If they're closer to feminity, wouldn't that make them _more_ believable in a woman's role? Well not unless you also consider the audience: for men. A real woman wouldn't fit the male audience's stereotypes and prejudices as well as a man playing those stereotypes. Those guys came to see their stereotypical medieval woman image, all airhead, submissive and utterly unable to even exist without a Real Man lording over her. They want to see someone embodying that stereotype to the letter, and sometimes melodramatically, not someone showing the quirks of a real woman.

Or you can see the same phenomenon on MUDs and, to some extent, MMOs. Men pretending to be women are quite often more believed in that role, than the real women. Believed by other men, that is. Because they fit the audience's distorted notions better than the real thing does.

Yes, there are also the ones dancing naked in the Stormwind fountain. But just because _some_ people are unable to play a stereotype well, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work for more talented authors and actors.

Just to be entirely fair, though, I suppose the opposite should also be true. A man portrayed by a woman should probably also be more believable to other women, than the real thing.

I've actually had the mis-fortune of seeing a few romance movies, and the guys were portrayed as far from the real thing as you can get without adding tentacles and bug eyes. Whether it was Mr Perfect wooing the heroine or the henchman or whatever, those just fell somewhere in _my_ uncanny valley. They acted disturbingly not quite like real men. The actors may have been biologically male, but the role wasn't. But apparently the core demographic for that kind of thing doesn't have their suspension of disbelief tripped.

Re:Actually, you illustrate another point

[Headw1nd]

Just to be entirely fair, though, I suppose the opposite should also be true. A man portrayed by a woman should probably also be more believable to other women, than the real thing. I've actually had the mis-fortune of seeing a few romance movies, and the guys were portrayed as far from the real thing as you can get without adding tentacles and bug eyes. Whether it was Mr Perfect wooing the heroine or the henchman or whatever, those just fell somewhere in _my_ uncanny valley. They acted disturbingly not quite like real men. The actors may have been biologically male, but the role wasn't. But apparently the core demographic for that kind of thing doesn't have their suspension of disbelief tripped.

If you're looking for some more examples of this, might I suggest The Lifetime Network? Where every man is either a impossibly kind and sensitive father figure, or a malicious, abusive rapist? (Possesing, in either case, perfectly styled hair)

Re:Actually, you illustrate another point

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

In medieval Japan the justification of why only men are allowed to play women roles in Kabuki theatre was... that supposedly women are too close to feminity to play it accurately. At first read it sounds like a major WTF. If they're closer to feminity, wouldn't that make them _more_ believable in a woman's role?

That sounds like a straw-man argument to me. More likely, the argument was that women didn't have the self-control to act like the woman portrayed in the script rather than herself.

Or, if acting was the men's livelihood, they didn't want members of their cast being out-of-commission for a few days every month, or getting pregnant and going on the equivalent of maternity leave---leaving everyone else without a full cast, which could jeopardize their ability to put food on the table.

Not that those are bulletproof arguments, but if you're going to ridicule someone's position, try to refute their best arguments. Otherwise, you end up looking like an Intelligent Design creationist.

I think you make a good point, though, about how meeting your audience's stereotypes makes you more believable than being totally realistic.

Re:Actually, you illustrate another point

[Doggabone]

At it's inception, Kabuki was performed by women.

The history of kabuki began in 1603 when Okuni, a miko (young woman in the service of a Shinto shrine) of Izumo Taisha, began performing a new style of dance drama in the dry riverbeds of Kyoto. Female performers played both men and women in comic playlets about ordinary life. The style was instantly popular; Okuni was even asked to perform before the Imperial Court. In the wake of such success, rival troupes quickly formed, and kabuki was born as ensemble dance and drama was performed by women--a form very different from its modern incarnation. Much of its appeal in this era was due to the ribald, suggestive performances put on by many troupes; this appeal was further augmented by the fact that the performers were often also available for prostitution.[1] For this reason, kabuki was also written "" (singing and dancing prostitute) during the Edo Period.

In Kabuki theater's nascent period, women were the only performers in the plays. Soon women began attracting the wrong types of audiences and gaining too much attention from men. This type of attention raised some eyebrows and officials felt as if women were degrading the art of kabuki theatre. In 1629 the theatrical appearance of women in the performance of kabuki theatre was banned. When the ban of women in kabuki theatre was passed many thought of it to be very odd because women began Kabuki theater.

Since kabuki was already so popular, young male actors, known as wakashu, took over after women were banned from performing. Young male boys began taking the role of women due to there youthfulness and higher pitched voices in comparison to that of a grown male. Along with the change in the performers' gender came a change in the emphasis of the performance: increased stress was placed on drama rather than dance. Their performances were equally ribald, however, and they too were available for prostitution (also to male customers). Audiences frequently became rowdy, and brawls occasionally broke out, sometimes over the favors of a particularly handsome young actor, leading the shogunate to ban young male actors in 1652.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki Apparently, the problem was not the self-control of the women (or of the young men), but of the audience.

Mark Millar sums it up pretty well

[roskakori]

...in his response to the refrigerator rant:

As regards the female characters thing, I'm afraid I think it's giving male creators a bum deal. The list does read pretty shocking at first until you think of everything the male heroes have gone through, too, in terms of deaths/mutilations/etc. Granted, the female stuff has more of a sexual violence theme and this is something people should probably watch out for, but rape is a rare thing in comics and is seldom done in an exploitative way.

There is always an excuse.

[okoskimi]

Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it? (I didn't think so)

You are confusing "understandable" with "acceptable". In most cases, there is an understandable reason for unacceptable behaviour. For example, rapists have themselves frequently been molested as children. While that makes it possible to understand their behavior, it does not excuse it.

Now, in some extreme cases past experiences may be considered to be so extreme that the person in fact could not act in any other way than he/she did, and so is not responsible for his/her actions. That is also known as an insanity plea.

Since you were excusing the girl and laying all the blame on the guy, it does not seem likely you were just giving an explanation for her actions. You were in fact trying to shift blame. Exactly the same thing as first defending rapists by saying they had a bad childhood, and then going on to explain how it was the girl's fault anyway for wearing such revealing clothes.

Or perhaps you are arguing that the girl was crazy?
...didn't think so.

And yes, I am using rapists as an example exactly because this is a feminist discussion. Tends to flush out the hypocrisy...

Good day, Mr Cholmondley-Warner.

[caluml]

Women! Know your limits! And for pity's sake - don't drive.

Hey

[whitespiral]

If you think women superheroes have it tough, black superheroes have it tougher. There's not one that's worth a damn. There's a whole movement promoting the black green lantern, and as far as I've read, that character will be used in an upcoming League o Justive series. To me that's heresy! It's like telling Superman's story from the point he resurrected! Green Lantern's main character and story starting-point should always be Hal Jordan! That's why I'm protesting the only way I can: With my wallet. Even though Hal Jordan's my favorite superheroe, I won't ever buy any merchandise that features Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner, or John Stewart. If the comic studios want to promote a black superguy, create a new one!

Re:Hey

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the only superpower a nigger has is the power to smoke crack, steal electronics, and rape white women.

Re:Hey

[Lieutenant_Dan]

Not sure what they're planning with Jon Stewart.

Other solid characters: Luke Cage, Mr Terrific, Storm, Firestorm, Falcon, "Black" Lightning, Bronze Tiger, Thunder, Cyborg, Cloak, "Black" Panther, and Spawn.

More here.

In the minority, but still better represented than Latino, Asian, or Aboriginals ...

Female Control of Comics

[Anonymous Coward]

from Obligatory MJ Statue Post.

1997

FAT GUY IN A SPIDER-MAN T-SHIRT: Dude, I found this awesome bust of Kraven, and a painting of some naked chick with pterodactyl wings.

GUY IN LEATHER TRENCHCOAT: Sweet. I bought this replica of the sword the black guy from "Serenity" used, and a bunch of useless shit with Jay and Silent Bob on it. It's a good thing we only packed one day's worth of clothing, or we wouldn't have any room to pack all this stuff for the trip home. I'm gonna put this sword in the tub, unless you need it.

FAT GUY: Nah, I showered the day before we got here, so that ought to do.

....

2006

FAT GUY IN A CROSSGEN SHIRT: And so I got George Perez to draw me a sketch of Donna Troy strapped to a gynecology table. Weird thing is he actually gave me a discount. Boy, there sure are a lot of girls this year.

GUY IN LEATHER TRENCHCOAT: Yeah, I noticed that while I was buying my Slytherin iron-on patch for my backpack. You remembered to pack extra deodorant, right?

FAT GUY: Sure did. And I brought my own soap, too. Those little hotel bars just don't cut it, I've found.

...

2012

FAT GUY IN A JACK SPARROW T-SHIRT: Great news, I finally completed my collection of Batgirl. Steph + Cass = Wibbles.

GUY IN LEATHER JACKET: That's such a great series. The artwork is sexy, but it's not TOO sexy, which is great. Also, Batgirl is such an empowered heroine, which is really admirable. Speaking of admirable, I bought this sketch by Phil Jimenez of Nightwing assf***ing Arsenal.

FAT GUY: Their love is so canon, thanks to the Federal Slash Canon Act of 2010. Hey, by the way, do you envy the dead as much as I do?

GUY IN LEATHER JACKET: If not more, old friend. If not more.

THE END (or is it?)

Series synopsis

[whuddafugger]

#14: Wonder Woman takes on vericose veins
#15: Oprah Winfrey: How Amazons survive in today's slimmed down world
#16: 101 uses for your magical rope: Enliven your sex life in middle-age
#17: Dealing with menopause while kicking ass and taking names (Cameo appearance: Bat-Girl)
#18: Choose the right color panties when flying around in your invisible jet
#19: Wonder Woman vs. Osteoporosis
#20: Dr. Phil: Domestic violence and anger management. How to handle it when you're married to the Incredible Hulk (Cross-over series with Marvel Comics)

Japan has a Separate Female Comic Culture

[StCredZero]

Japan has an entirely separate comics culture for females. That makes a lot more sense than making superhero comics more woman-friendly.

Truth be told, Manga's diversity is just huge, and shows how paltry comic culture is in the west. There are popular comics about baseball, mountain climbing, boxing, surrealism, relationships, historical fiction, art,... it goes on an on. Such things exist here, but they are little paltry niche items. Those things exist in Japan with commercial distribution and real readership levels.

Comiket, or Comic Market is held twice a year, and yet has over half a million attendees!

The center of comics culture is Japan.

Re:Japan has a Separate Female Comic Culture

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. The amount of "for women, by women" comics in japan is almost equal to the "by men, for men" comics. The first Japanese comic book store I visited surprised me with the 50/50 mix of male/female customers, and the vast age range of 8 to 80.

Comics as a male-only club seems to be a western characteristic, not global.

Re:No, they do exist. So live with it ....

[chawly]

I would have just blown her a kiss. Might have worked up a salacious leer ..... Then I'd have returned to my life ..... and forgotten the incident.

At my age I quite often have women who offer me their seat in the public transport for instance. I always accept with thanks. Question of how you're brought up, I think.

Do you know this joke about Wonder Woman ?

[jalet]

Superman is drinking and chatting with Spiderman.

Superman tells :
  - Last week I was flying over New York City, when I saw Wonder Woman, on the roof of a skyscraper, naked, her pussy wet, and groaning. Then of course my dick had a Super erection, and then I flew over her and fucked her Super fast.

Spiderman :
  - Wasn't she angry after you ?

Superman :
  - No, but Invisibleman was !

Not sure about gender wars, but her writing rocks

[smurgy]

Have you read Birds of Prey?

It's an astounding mix of the superhero procedure with female ethics and interpersonal relationships.

When characters in are in conflict in male-written comics... they resolve it through a nice big punch up.

Gail Simone's characters resolve conflict in a way that is always surprising but also subtly reflects both who each character are, and (more importantly) reflects the nature of their relationship at that point in time - and the resolution of the conflict will change that relationship in the future, so future conflicts are resolved in an intelligently different way.

Jack Nicholson is cool, but he's also vastly immature, which is part of his appeal I guess. Reasonable and accountable are the last things I think of when I think of the man.

uh huh

[Have Brain Will Rent]

the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity

Two words(although there are many many many further examples if you want them): Andrea Dworkin

Having shown your claim to be false let me proceed to voice an opinion. To make a statement such as yours requires that the person making it is either honest but exists in a profound state of ignorance or is wilfully promoting an agenda through propaganda.

Argh!

[foqn1bo]

You know, it's really depressing how these forums can expose just how nonchalant most guys still are about sexism. And no, I'm not a woman, or a "bra burning fem-nazi". For the sake of brevity (and because there's no arguing with outright bigotry) I'm going to ignore all the infantile sexist jokes that inevitably come up when a story like this gets posted. But for those of you who mean well but assume that being a woman in our society is all cake and soap operas, I sincerely hope you end up taking some kind of Womens' Studies course sometime so that hopefully you end up getting a badly-needed dose of context.

If you're a man consuming images in our culture, it's incredibly easy not to notice all the little (and not so little) ways that women are denigrated, from the classic "school crossing" icon of a dude firmly holding the arm of a younger girl, to female roles in Hollywood movies that serve little purpose other than to gratify both the male lead and the male audience member. This is because when the images in question are directed toward you, as they typically are, you will tend to accept images of women represented for male consumption because you haven't been given an alternative context, and more to the point, it gets you off. Nobody is asking you to feel ashamed for going to the movies (or at least I'm not) but it never hurts to be more aware of the ways this kind of stuff gets encoded in the media we encounter. Nor is it a bad idea to try to put yourself in a woman's shoes and try to imagine how irritating it can get when you're surrounded by images of women in the classic Western stereotype: irrational, passive, scheming, slutty or virtuous (or frigid) with no room in between, frivolous, etc. Claiming that some women in real life live up to their media representations is a cop out. That is, unless you are foolish enough to believe that your own identity is something whole and untainted by contemporary mythology, as though your mannerisms and fashion choices and social tendencies are obvious universalities of masculinity and not deeply performative amalgams of everything you have ever seen "normal" men do. Take the blinders off, people. We're all products of our culture. If this woman wants to tell the story of Wonder Woman from a female perspective, something that frankly should have already happened by now, great. You don't have to buy it. But don't doubt that there are nerdy comic-loving girls out there who would love to see a classic super hero shown from a perspective they can more readily relate to. You don't have to be a super-aggro-bitch (or a woman) to be a feminist.

Re:Argh!

[freedom_india]

Yup! Well Said.
To help remember, just recall what Carly Fiori.. did to HP.
That ought to shut up the fems for good.

Re:Argh!

[pedestrian crossing]

To help remember, just recall what Carly Fiori.. did to HP.

And then went on "60 Minutes" to cry about how she had been so unfairly treated......

Re:Argh!

[Kelson]

It's sad, but telling, that this comment could get modded as a troll.

Sometimes you gotta wonder what's going on...

[Anonymous Coward]

Take Heroes for example... I really liked the show. But if you think about the characters for a minute you realize that all strong female characters are either raped (or someone attempts to sexually assault them) or killed. Why is that always the setup in action oriented entertainment? If she's a really strong female character she won't need to wait for the male to rescue her. P.S. This is an interesting site that discusses women in comics: http://girl-wonder.org/index.php

Re:Fine by you...

[FauxReal]

The truth is, to an extent that's how some things tend to be in comics. An interesting article on the phenomena is discussed using the character Power Girl.

http://daveslongbox.blogspot.com/2005/09/boob-war-climax-everybody-loves-power.html

Ever notice how every strong female on Heroes is either killed off, raped or suffers an attempted sexual assault? Except the motor mimic girl, but the show went on hiatus mid beatdown.

So let me see if I get this right.

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

The professor wasn't trying to absolve the woman that you held the door for; she was trying to get you to understand what causes such encounters. However, you clearly are looking for others to rubberstamp your perspective on that encounter. That's not a luxury you deserve.

I'm truly impressed that you have been able to quote what this professor said all those many years ago in what I find a very convincing rendering of what she may have said. I'm disappointed, however, that you've not tried to understand it better. Are you aware to what extend women and people of color are subject to microaggressions throughout their lifetime, and what the effects of this may be? (Another good link.)

Here's your strong superhero's GF

[FauxReal]

Something Positive

Try to stay consistant...

[Shauni]

Come on, first you're claiming that men die more often then women, then saying, "well, even if there WERE more women dying than men it would be okay because they'd be pandering to the heterosexual men?" Take one claim and stick to it, please. And you can point out exceptions to the rule all you want, but in general: heroism *does* matter. Men don't get stuffed in fridges; they die in combat against a powerful foe. If they get crippled, it only serves to launch a story in which they overcome their debilitation and win the day. Rarely, if ever, are they victims. Women are more often truly "broken" (although this trend is stronger among non-hero females, eg. relatives) What men and women are "supposed" to do has nothing to do with fridge logic.

It enters their thinking

[LandruBek]

For white people I'm sure this [considering whether they are being treated differently because of race] almost never enters their thinking . . .

That strikes me as quite an odd statement. As you pointed out yourself, such things depend hugely upon context! In China, in India, in Egypt, in Thailand etc. where white people are just another minority, I should think they do frequently consider that others are treating them differently because of race -- every day, much of the day. And most major cities of Western Europe or North America are ethnically very diverse, so that a city dweller is bound to feel like a bit of an alien at times and in places -- maybe not every day, but pretty often -- regardless of her or his race. Why should white people be any different than anyone else in this regard?

Re:Not sure about gender wars, but her writing roc

[Abreu]

Jack Nicholson is cool, but he's also vastly immature, which is part of his appeal I guess. Reasonable and accountable are the last things I think of when I think of the man. I think you are confusing the Actor and the Characters he often portrays.

Re:Not sure about gender wars, but her writing roc

[smurgy]

Thanks for pointing that out, but in actuality no I don't believe movie characters are the same as the real people who play them. My opinion of the man is based on observing his inability to form a stable relationship with any of the reputed 9000 women he has been intimate with.

I was aware the GP sort of attributed Nicholson's characters' statement to the actor himself, however I responded in kind so as to enter into the spirit of the discussion rather than nitpick about terms.

Re:Fine by you...

[jamesmrankinjr]

Except the motor mimic girl, but the show went on hiatus mid beatdown.

That drove me nuts!

They show her watching Bruce Lee. Show her get a video iPod with all kinds of crazy stuff to study.

Then, she follows the bad guys I'm all like "Yes! Finally we get to see her go all Bruce Lee Kung Fu on those guys!"

Then, ..., nothing. She's kidnapped and held hostage like any stereo-typical female victim character.

I love Heroes, but that is hard to forgive.

-jimbo