Slashdot Mirror


Gaming Google a Gateway To Crime?

netbuzz writes "Merely hiring a blackhat practitioner of search-engine optimization may be indicative of a willingness to 'cut corners' — the kind that land business executives behind bars — says Matt Cutts, Google's top cop regarding such matters. It's an interesting theory, as generalizations go, but there would seem to be quite a leap between risking the death penalty from Google and risking a stint in prison."

28 of 162 comments (clear)

  1. it's not even cutting corners by yagu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not even cutting corners, the Google guy is euphemistically describing "illegal" activity by Google's rules. And while SEO activities that break Google's rules aren't technically illegal other than sanctions brought by Google for getting caught I think Cutts makes an interesting and probably valid point.

    Just because something isn't codified into law doesn't make it ethical or right. Law can and will never model completely human behavior, nor should it. But outside of the law there are behaviors that demonstrate or point to probability someone would also break codified law. SEO like any other discipline has approaches that work and are within ethical boundaries. But it also, like any other, has approaches that are not okay.

    IMO it's about boundaries, and the ramifications when activity infringes on another's ability to freely engage in their own activity. Competition is one thing. Subverting a mechanism is quite another, especially when subversion comes at others' expense.

    As for the quasi-argument from the summary:

    there would seem to be quite a leap between risking the death penalty from Google and risking a stint in prison

    The whole MO of people like this is they don't think they're risking a stint in prison. They completely rationalize their behaviors beyond any reasonable state of self-denial. Watch some of the videos of the Enron depositions... these guys (IMO) truly believe their actions were within the bounds of legal activity. (Actually some probably were, the shame of the whole Enron scam is a lot of goats took the fall for the more powerful, though it was nice to see at least a couple of high level execs finally taken out.)

    1. Re:it's not even cutting corners by canUbeleiveIT · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Part of the problem is that, for some reason, it is seen as somehow more acceptable, perhaps even noble to cheat for the sake of one's company.

      I worked in a Fortune 100 retail environment for many years and was amazed at the moral lapses that seemingly otherwise upstanding managers would commit on behalf of the company. One manager in particular, who was particularly hard on shoplifters (always prosecuted no matter the amount) and employee pilfering, would routinely shave hours off of employees' timesheets. His "thefts" added up to thousands of dollars per month and he felt perfectly justified in doing it.

    2. Re:it's not even cutting corners by Blymie · · Score: 2, Insightful


      You certainly touched on it and I'll add my bit here, focusing entirely and only on that last sentence fragment.

      The entire logic and reasoning behind that fragment is quite questionable. Frankly, I have to wonder about the character of the person that wrote it. To them, it would appear, the only reason people do not do wrong things, is because they are afraid of the ramifications of their actions. Put another way, the logic of that sentence fragment states that the only reason people do not slit your throat, steal your car, and rape your wife, is because they fear the backlash of their actions.

      A person that employs such logic would therefore clearly steal from you, if they knew there would be absolutely no backlash. That is, if they were positive there was no way to be caught, and quite confident of it. This is called "an asshole". A person without any moral fiber.

      A person with true moral fiber does not act based upon the laws, but acts based upon his code of ethics at all times. For example, it is clear that beating the living tar out of someone that just viciously beat and stole a purse from an old woman, is a very moral act. It is also quite illegal, unless that person is physically threatening you at the time. One is moral, one is legal.

      Also, I am sure that a good number of people on slashdot feel it is quite valid to kick the living tar out of someone that has acted in an extremely inappropriate fashion. Of course, this is also illegal. Morals and legality are often the same, but equating laws to morals is not valid, ever.

      So, I take a strong stand against someone discussing going to jail, as if someone looks at the possible jail sentence they might receive, decides if the act is worth that price, and the commits the crime. This is what that sentence fragment states. A better sentence fragment would be:

      "there would seem to be quite a leap between risking blacklisting from Google, and killing someone in cold blood"

    3. Re:it's not even cutting corners by kevin_conaway · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A person with true moral fiber does not act based upon the laws, but acts based upon his code of ethics at all times. For example, it is clear that beating the living tar out of someone that just viciously beat and stole a purse from an old woman, is a very moral act

      Thats actually not clear at all.

    4. Re:it's not even cutting corners by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's exactly what I was going to say - that's not clearly moral at all, that's simply revenge. It's the attractiveness of that sort of response that is part of the reason why we have laws, to stop people simply dishing out whatever punishment seems fit at the time.

    5. Re:it's not even cutting corners by argiedot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In fact, on Kohlberg's Moral Ladder, that would be the way a small child would think. A simple attempt to minimise punishment and maximise reward which does not involve any thought of right or wrong outside the thought of the consequences to the person doing the act. Level I - Preconventional, that is.

    6. Re:it's not even cutting corners by J0nne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For example, it is clear that beating the living tar out of someone that just viciously beat and stole a purse from an old woman, is a very moral act. I have my doubts on this one...
    7. Re:it's not even cutting corners by billcopc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is revenge any worse than the arbitrary punishment decided in a courtroom or municipal office ? The same wackos, who would beat the "living tar" out of someone over petty theft, are also in offices writing the policies. Just because someone works for the city doesn't magically make them less prone to emotion and irrational behavior.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    8. Re:it's not even cutting corners by inviolet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Part of the problem is that, for some reason, it is seen as somehow more acceptable, perhaps even noble to cheat for the sake of one's company.

      I'll bet you we see a lot more of this in the future, because internationalization has introduced an element of nationalism into the competitions between companies. Nationalism enables our tribalist ability to slaughter (i.e. rip off) any human who is from a different tribe. Wow will it be nice when genetic engineering allows us to remove the tribalism gene.

      Also, the middle-class is heavily involved in the stock market now, and companies are responding by becoming increasingly short-sighted. Short-sightedness means cutting corners and selling out the long run, as we know.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    9. Re:it's not even cutting corners by mcpkaaos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is revenge any worse than the arbitrary punishment decided in a courtroom or municipal office ?

      It isn't about revenge. The hope is that the system will try to rehabilitate. Revenge only teaches a criminal to be more careful and/or armed.

      --
      It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
    10. Re:it's not even cutting corners by BakaHoushi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is why I hate the stock market with a passion.
      It's no longer about making money. Making money is the point of business and hey, that's just fine.
      But no, it's now about making MORE money.
      You can't be happy that you spent a million dollars and made a billion. Because you made 2 billion last year, so you should have made at least THREE billion.
      The stock market and its investors tend to, I've noticed, ignore the concept of averages. Sometimes, a store will do better than average. Sometimes, it will do worse. That's kinda the definition of average. But we want our stock prices to go up indefinitely. You can only raise stock prices by legal means so high. After that, well, that's when the less savory aspects of business kicks in, just to make sure we look "better" this quarter than we did last year. Nevermind the moral, legal, and long term financial ramifications.

    11. Re:it's not even cutting corners by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "The middle-class is heavily involved in the stock market now."

      The stock market was always a form of usury gambling, and ownership control over key assets and a way for them to increase their wealth exponentially, and also way for the upper classes to offload risk onto the middle and lower classes. The whole idea of investment is fucked up to begin with. Gaining money without working for it through ownership loopholes (i.e. 'passive income') which offloads risk onto other people (i.e. the workers working for the company, and all through the chain of other companies they buy/sell/deal with).

      Anti-trust is pretty much a failure because the government is owned and tooled by lobbyists, so the real government is the economy and the power players of the market itself and the government is merely an arm of private industry which is needed from people revolting and attacking big businesses. People really shouldn't hate the government, they should hate the private vested corporate capitalists and their lackeys fucking the world over.

      The whole concept of investment is fucked up because ownership, liability, and corporate personhood is the main problem. It's sad that companies are now more powerful then states and whole other countries combined.

  2. Suprise by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People who are anti-social, who attempt to game the system for their own gain at our expense, are known to engage in other anti-social acts to bring about their own gain at others expense.

    What a surprise.

    How about, "People who don't think about what larger effect their actions will have are amoral, while people who recognize that their actions will have larger, detrimental effects on others and still engage in those actions are evil."

    People behave according to their character.

    --
    -1 Uncomfortable Truth
  3. This should have been dumped in the Firehose! by garcia · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the article's quotation of Cutts:

    Can I definitively claim that there's a connection between a willingness to embrace blackhat SEO and a willingness to cut corners in other areas of business? No, of course not.

    So in other words, he's drawing a conclusion based on one (or a handful, who knows) of cases and then this particular author made a story out of it and Slashdot picked it up?

    Yeah, non-issue; move along.

  4. Makes sense to me by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not as much as an indication of willingness to commit crime as general untrustworthiness.

    If you are willing to pretend you are something you are not to the search engines (which is basically what black hat SEO consists of) in order to lure customers to your site, there is a good chance you are willing to do something similar to the customers in order to ensure a sale.

  5. Sounds a lot like Microsoft noises ... by Syncerus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's funny how Google sounds more and more like Microsoft as time goes by ...

    --
    "Man is nothing without the works of man" -- Helvetius
  6. Gateway to crime? by the_skywise · · Score: 3, Funny

    Father: "Why are you gaming Google to get your myspace page to the top of the list? Where did you learn to do that, huh?!"
    Kid: "YOU, alright! I learned it from watching you!"

  7. Maybe it's breaking the rules by jessiej · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think it makes some sense, try thinking of it as "breaking rules". Google has a set of rules about proper search engine optimization. Some of these rules might not be well documented but people generally know when they're trying to get around them or cheat them.

    Any success in breaking Google's rules could result in increased profits from a higher pagerank giving the rule breaker a sense that it pays to cheat. So why not cheat somewhere else with another set of breakable rules? Taxes? Mortgages?

  8. This reminds me of a commercial I saw... by RandoX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You wouldn't steal a car...

    1. Re:This reminds me of a commercial I saw... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You wouldn't steal a car... I would if I could fucking download one.
  9. Cutts makes no sense by Venik · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Matt Marlon of Traffic Power was arrested for running a mortgage scam, not for breaking Google rules for SEO. Cutts is just using this to push his agenda. God help us all if some other SEO boss gets arrested for shoplifting or grand theft auto.

  10. Google by jorghis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oh come on now, how much of a fanboy do you have to be to think that modifying your own web pages in a way you see fit is equivalent to committing a crime because Google doesnt like it? Google has no right to tell people what they can and cant do on the internet, they are not the law. Doing something they dont like is not equivalent to breaking the law. If their algorithm doesnt handle other people's websites doing certain things very well they should fix their algorithm, not demand that everyone play by their rules and design their websites in a way which doesnt mess up their algorithm.

    I know that a lot of the things they push may be in the best interests of the tech industry but at the same time it doesnt seem right that they have anointed themselves as the police and lawmakers of the internet. (how many lobbyists do they have again trying to get laws written which are friendly to them?)

  11. Google Cuts Corners on Taxes With Irish Subsidiary by theodp · · Score: 3, Informative

    From Corporate Profits Take an Offshore Vacation : Google similarly set up an Irish subsidiary, Google Ireland Holdings Ltd, which in 2004, its first year, helped the company avoid paying about 131 million dollars in U.S. taxes. Google noted in its annual report that year that it expected its effective tax rate to drop even more significantly. It explained, "This is primarily because proportionately more of earnings in 2005 compared to 2004 are expected to be recognised by our Irish subsidiary, and such earnings are taxed at a lower statutory tax rate (12.5 percent) than in the U.S. (35 percent)."

  12. It's funny - laugh. by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The amusing part is that if Microsoft or Sony said 'breaking our rules indicates a tendency towards criminal behavior'... The replies would be filled with flames and laughter.
     
    But it's Google, so they get a pass and people take them almost seriously.

  13. It *is* an issue by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yeah, non-issue; move along

    The mere fact that Cutts can't prove definitively that there is a correlation between use of blackhat SEO techniques and cutting corners in other areas doesn't mean that his statement is without merit. Anecdotal evidence has shown me that in the business world if you cut corners in one place, you're likely to do the same in others. Hire undocumented workers. Pay people under the table. Don't divulge some earnings. Mix your personal and business accounts. Tarnish other businesses with innuendo. Hire a blackhat SEO specialist.

    I think it is important to recognize that SEO is in the mainstream of most big business operations these days, and it is no longer appropriate to think of blackhat SEO as just a "geek topic." It's a front and center business ethics issue.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  14. Correlation != Causation by hellfire · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "gateway crime" theory is way overused. It's true dishonest people do dishonest things. The question is, did gaming the search engine come first, did cooking the books come first, or are the people involved simply dishonest to begin with and it doesn't matter which one they did first, they'll just do anything to make a buck. I'm betting the last one rings true in this and most other situations.

    The same holds true for marijuana as a gateway drug. People think that taking marijuana almost always leads to harder drugs. That's simply not true. The fact that someone jumps from mary jane to cocaine does happen, but it has nothing to do with the drug, but the person using it. Just like people continue to think "prostitution" is a gateway crime and therefore want laws strictly enforced. If government would simply make it legal and regulate it, crimes tied to prostitution would be drastically reduced, but that would require going against the moral majority and thinking outside the box.

    If you are willing to do one dishonest and illegal thing (and do it with no remorse), you are likely to do others (i.e. correlation). It all has to do with the morals of the person committing the act. The article doesn't say much but it makes sense in all other areas. But stop calling it "Gateway crime," I'm sick of that label because it implies causation and leads to stupid crime prevention policies.

    --

    "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

  15. Kind of a stretch for me by Roman+Geyzer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Although I don't disagree at a high-level with Matt, this is also a bit of a stretch. The way I see it, Google's algorithm is far from perfect. All too often, I search for something and get results back from web sites that don't deserve to be at the top of the list but are not necessarily doing any kind of black-hat SEO. For whatever reason, Google incorrectly bestows traffic (and therefore revenue) to these sites that appear at the top. So would you blame someone who has a better web site from "pushing the envelope a bit"? To say that this behavior automatically constitutes some degree of moral decrepitude is a bit of a stretch. There are behaviors that are clearly wrong and I wholeheartedly disagree with them. But to expect perfection from the masses when Google's search results themselves are not perfect is a bit hypocritical in my view. Another way of putting it: It's easy for Google to sit back and say you do this and that to web site owners while Google's making Billions and so many sites are barely able to survive despite good quality content and top-notch intentions. Worse still is that Google has a "diversity problem" in my opinion. Top 10 search results will be from only 4 or 5 sites instead of from 10 different sites so you have more options to choose from. But what do I know.

  16. Re:How to help? by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting
    • If the consultant says "You should really just RTFM, but if you're not technical enough to do that, or don't know if the web page design tools you're using implemented it correctly, you can hire me to do an audit", that's reasonable. It's probably not worth paying much money for, and the consultant shouldn't be charging you very much, and there are a number of web sites and books that'll help you get up to speed; it's really not very hard.


    • If the consultant says "Search Engines try to find pages that are interesting and useful for people who read them, and if you want people to read your web pages more than once you need interesting and useful content.", it's a good start. Usually, consultants who say that call themselves "web designers" or "editors" if they're white-hat, and if they call themselves SEOs it's usually because they're trying to sell you prefab robo-generated "content" that'll pump up the advertising revenue on your ad-banner page, and they're probably at least sleazy if not outright black-hat.


    • If the consultant says "There are billions and billions of web pages out there, and one way for people to find the interesting content on your web site is to advertise on other relevant web pages, and we can help you with that", they'll probably call themselves something like "advertisers" or "marketers" if they're legit, and only call themselves SEOs if they're not, but of course the guys who are not legit sometimes pretend that they are.


    • If the consultant says "We can help you drive traffic to your site and TRIPLE your advertising revenue", then you know what business they're in, and if you hire them, you know what business you're in. Just make sure your accountant isn't also wearing a black hat.


    • If the consultant says "You're trying to provide legitimate content about a topic where 99.99% of the web pages are run by scammers who hire SEOs, and you need to find a way to not get lost in all that noise", then you've got an interesting edge case, and you might want to compare the consultant's hat with a Pantone chart to see exactly what color of gray it is. Sometimes that's a non-trivial problem; if you're trying to provide a legitimate online pharmacy or drug information, for instance, there are very few sites above the noise level, and I usually ignore Google and either start with Wikipedia or go to the manufacturer's web page.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks