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14-Year-Old Turns Tram System Into Personal Train Set

F-3582 writes "By modifying a TV remote a 14-year-old boy from Lodz, Poland, managed to gain control over the junctions of the tracks. According to The Register the boy had 'trespassed in tram depots to gather information needed to build the device. [...] Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit.' Four trams derailed in the process injuring a number of passengers. The boy is now looking at 'charges at a special juvenile court of endangering public safety.'"

63 of 380 comments (clear)

  1. how many other "systems" like this? by yagu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know some kids who are extremely bright, curious, and for lack of a better description, "like to experiment". Any one of these I think could have done the same thing, and with completely innocent (though mischievous) intent. For playing with such big toys in such a fashion there should be repercussions. But the kids I know who also could have done something like this would be much more on track with thinking about how they're moving switches than about what moving those switches implies.

    However, I'm led to a different train of thought. What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference? I'm betting there are a "few". I wonder that in the process of designing something like this if we must pay more attention to the possibility of outsiders tinkering. I hope France's TGV has a bit more built in checks and balances than this. I hope the new Boeing 787 has more security built in than this.

    I actually think (and hope) this kid's imagination and curiosity somehow gets channeled rather than squashed. He actually sounds like he could be a contributor. Of course, he's at least grounded for the next month.

    1. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by show+me+altoids · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Reminds me of Johnny.

      --
      I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel
    2. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by _spider_ · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think we are bound to see more and more of this, after all, in this day and age, parents get their kids a Wii/xBox,PSx/etc in lieu of more challenging and creative toys probably a lot of us grew up with like Legos, Lincoln logs, erector sets, . . . things that I think are challenging and engaging.

      I'm proud for the kid in the sense that he put his mind to work, but at the same time, no points for lacking discretion, and a good sense of responsibility. And I don't think he should get a free pass just because he is a kid. If he is smart enough to do what he did, I think its entirely reasonable to assume that he had the capacity to know what the effects may be.

      --
      '/dev/wit' is not available.
    3. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by Kelbear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      14 year olds are young, but not so young to not realize that swapping train tracks around will affect what happens to trains when they reach that section of track. They might not follow that train of thought(pun intended) through to what the actual aftermath may look like, but it's no stretch of intelligence to conclude that a massive train moving at significant speeds will have a significant consequences when directed somewhere unexpectedly.

      Not that I'm recommending dire consequences for the boy, I'm just saying that there is probably some malicious intent here, though he probably didn't calculate the magnitude of his mischief either. I'm envisioning something like: "I'm gonna screw around with this and it'll be funny watching them try to fix i--*FOOM*...oh...wow...shit I better go".

      (And jeez, whoever designed that system that way is going to have a whole mess of flying poop coming their way).

    4. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by SleptThroughClass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As a 14 year old I was quite aware of what would be involved with a train changing tracks, but that is because I actually had studied trains and was consciously aware of the physics involved in their movement. Someone who was focused on the field of electronics might not have considered the physical effects of tons of material being jerked sideways. More NASCAR, fewer video games.

    5. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by towerdave · · Score: 2, Funny

      entitling you to pilot a multithousand ton piece of ambulatory steel at high speed. What were you driving? An aircraft carrier!?! Multi-thousand to... Oh you meant pounds. I get it. TD
    6. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many 14 year olds are angry, isolated, and misanthropic, in the throes of adolescent angst and frustration. He may have been indifferent at best to the harm he could have caused. There were times in my own adolescence I was angry and self-pitying to the point of sociopathy.

    7. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You must be from "Assholland"

    8. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by rbanffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This reminds me of a Mythbusters episode when they investigated how deadly a coin falling from the top of the Empire State Building would be to someone down on the street. They interviewed a lady that lives (or works) a couple dozen floors down, where most of the coins end up falling and she wondered what they had in mind - because they are either throwing money away for no reason or they are throwing it away because they are trying to get someone killed on the streets below.

    9. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by TamCaP · · Score: 4, Informative

      I read on one of the Polish websites about this guy, and he contacted the local public transportation club and was asking way too many questions (either during a meeting or on a webforum). As he didn't join the club / pay the fees and he disappeared immediately, it seemed a bit awkward. When the trams started behaving strangely, the authorities suspected outside interference and contacted the club leader for any information. The club leader recalled this strange guy asking too many questions, and the rest is history.

    10. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by Scooter's_dad · · Score: 2, Funny

      However, I'm led to a different train of thought.

      Hope the kid doesn't control that train, too!

      --
      The road to hell is paved with Cat 5 cable.
    11. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That might have been possible the first time. But he did it FOUR times. After he saw the first tram derail, then the consequences would have been made abundantly clear. The fact that he continued shows that he either didn't care, or enjoyed it.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    12. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by luder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference?
      Here's a video of a german teenager messing up with road information panels. Apparently, he got a copy of the software used by authorities to change those displays. It seems that anyone in the possession of that software and a wireless card can do it. Maybe someone who knows german can give more details.
    13. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by snowraver1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, me neither. At that time, I bought a cell phone, making the pay phone obsolete.

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      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
    14. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or he could be charitable, putting people condemned to a life living in Lódz out of their misery.

    15. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by Muhammar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Never forget that these things are done first time to figure out if can be done at all - and the second, third and fourth time for the benefit of friends (and sometimes alone too, to fight the boredom). Sharing the exitement of discovery and earning the bragging rights is your reward. Many bright guys at the age 14 are pretty sociopathically disposed.

      --
      I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
    16. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by jacquesm · · Score: 2, Funny

      because it's called 'The Netherlands', which probably makes us 'neanderthals'

    17. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by neomunk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're comparing roller coaster tycoon to an erector set and actually implying that the video game is more challenging?

      See, NOW I feel old. I always thought that actually studying the engineering aspects and bolting things together to see if you have the design down right took more thought and imagination than 'the computer says this track piece won't fit, better click on the hole digging button'.

      Or is it just the fact that if it's not on the big pretty color-making box and just in plain ole' 'real life' (how boring!) it somehow isn't modern enough to even consider being 'challenging'. After all, if it takes more than pressing a button and waiting for a machine to tell you if you hit the RIGHT button, it must be too simple and old fashioned for us modern folk.

      In other words, that's just about the dumbest (or at least the most modern-centric) thing I've heard all week. Oh, and remember, this isn't coming from someone who's biased in favor of erector sets or biased against RCT (one of my all time favorite business simulations, and I like that whole genre), just from someone who enjoys them both and understands the limitations both are bound to as well.

    18. Re:how many other "systems" like this? by TamCaP · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sure, they are quite popular in Poland (where I was born, and where it happened). Especially the more sophisticated ones (planes & rails) get lots of attention, however buses have a couple of fans too.
      Bunch of guys renovated a little steam-train with their own funds and now are running it on an unused piece of track that they have fixed a bit by themselves too. All non-profit and stuff. Same goes for renovation of old trams or buses. I guess the price of any "cool" and relatively "old" plane (and subsequent maintenance) is prohibitive, because I haven't heard of any.

      The rail enthusiast's website (the English version is very poor though).
      Another one (Polish only).
      Warsaw public transport enthusiasts website.

      They guys there are very often people who did related stuff before but had to change profession due to transformation, or just plain enthusiasts.
  2. wtf by JohnFluxx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It should be the enginners and their bosses that should be the ones facing criminal charges.

    1. Re:wtf by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No bloody kidding. Yeah, the kid was doing what he shouldn't have, but who the hell develops something as critical as switch controls for a $#@!@% tram that can be so easily overridden. I don't buy this "not exposed" BS. That's why, in the old days of manual switches, you had padlocks on them to stop the earlier, low-tech version of this stunt.

      Once they've finished throwing the book at this kid, someone ought to look at getting him into a decent technical school. Maybe, in a decade, he can replace the retarded engineers.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:wtf by mea37 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If by that you mean that the engineers (responsible for design of the system) and their bosses should also be facing criminal charges, then yes, they should.

      That doesn't mean what the boy did was ok, or that he shouldn't be facing charges, though. While he is young and might not be held to the same standard of foresight as an adult, still his behavior cannot be excused as merely impulsive considering the time and effort involved. Even if he isn't held fully accountable for endangering lives, still he had to know he would be causing considerable disruption.

      I'm curious, though, about the details of the tram system in question. The article describes a tram operator trying to go one way while the track pushed him the other way... so I assume these are not strictly rail-following vehicles (like trains) that have only an accelerator and a brake?

    3. Re:wtf by eebly · · Score: 3, Informative

      Many tram systems have operator-controlled switches. In the old days (and still in some places, like Prague) switches are set by an operator manually. This system appears to basically be the same thing through proximity IR control.
      On railroads, switches are mostly controlled from a central dispatch office.

    4. Re:wtf by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One expects a lack of forethought and responsibility from teenagers. It's practically the defining characteristic of that stage of life. One expects a good deal from adult engineers.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:wtf by imbaczek · · Score: 2, Informative

      I live in Poland; news sources say that they indeed are under investigation.

  3. New terrorist plot for TV by Sciros · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have $20 that says at least one TV crime-drama-whatever show will have a plot where a bad guy tries to plot some train crash by messing with a TV remote, or better yet, video game controller.

    This kid does deserve to get in trouble, though, big-time. You don't go around derailing trams, that's not cool.

    --
    I like basketball!!1!
    1. Re:New terrorist plot for TV by Spudtrooper · · Score: 2, Funny

      Video games don't make trains crash, they just make kids fat!

    2. Re:New terrorist plot for TV by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This kid does deserve to get in trouble, though, big-time. You don't go around derailing trams, that's not cool.

      I'm surprised nobody has asked the obvious question. Switches normally switch between two tracks. How does switching a train to a different track cause it to derail? Collide, sure, but derail? Sounds like a design problem to me... or a whole lot of design problems if it is possible for it to switch when a train is in the middle of the switch, as I suspect occurred. There should be safety interlocks to prevent switching from even being possible as long as a weight sensor at the switch is depressed.

      It strikes me that this kid not only found a security flaw in the system, but also found at least one very serious safety flaw that could have occurred due to electronics glitches even if he hadn't done this. It could have ben a lot worse, particularly if those same switching systems are used for any high-speed trains....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:New terrorist plot for TV by anno1602 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Speculation: An alternative explanation would be that the two curves were of different diameter, and the driver intended to take the larger-diameter one, traveling at a speed too high for the sharper curve the tram ended up taking. Tram lines sometimes take pretty sharp turns.

    4. Re:New terrorist plot for TV by joebok · · Score: 4, Informative

      Have you never had a train set? A switch will have one pair of rails on one side, and two pairs of rails on the other. If you are coming to the switch from the side with one pair, you won't get derailed - you'll just go to one or the other output tracks. But if you are on the other side of the switch it has to be set right to get your train back to the single pair side. If the switch is set to route traffic from the other side rail then you would derail if you didn't stop.

      I'm sure there are visual indicators if you are heading into a situation where the track ahead isn't switched correctly (my train set had red and green lights), but it is easy to see how there could have been derailments if somebody was running amok with the switches.

    5. Re:New terrorist plot for TV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Speculation: An alternative explanation would be that the two curves were of different diameter, and the driver intended to take the larger-diameter one, traveling at a speed too high for the sharper curve the tram ended up taking. Tram lines sometimes take pretty sharp turns.

      That would explain the case of a train entering the base of the Y and exiting the top. The far more likely case is that the train entered the top of the Y and the switching rail was on the other leg. The inner rail would be pointed at the other leg. Trains don't run well on a giant gap in the rail.

  4. Law enforcement differences by KaiserSoze · · Score: 5, Funny

    Good thing he wasn't in the United States, where he'd be charged with terrorism, waterboarded, sodomized with a broom handle and thrown in Guantanamo Bay forever. The Department of Homeland Security would then increase the Train Flight Security Awareness Threat to Indigo, and the attorney general would trumpet the great work that the US Government is doing to prevent further Terrorist Train Derailments.

    --

    "What we elect to call imagination is mere combination of things not heretofore combined." - Frank Norris

  5. Special security training? by Optic7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does it really take special security training for engineers to realize that controlling train junctions with TV remote controls (or close enough) might be a bad idea? Where's the whatcouldpossiblygowrong tag when you need it?

    1. Re:Special security training? by khobba · · Score: 2, Informative
      As a Polish engineering student I feel strong urge to rotfl after reading this post...wait a minute...
      ...
      ...Done.

      "good engineering practices" from the rest of the world??? Please mind, that good engineering practices usually develop when other parts of a good design and construction are limited or unavailable (e.g. money, materials, pre-made designs), so the engineers really have to think everything over to avoid excessive material loss. All of my professors say that when Poland was firmly behind the Iron Curtain engineers have been much better (aaah, those good old days...).
      When someone was constructing, let's say, microwave transceiver, he could not use ready ICs from West Germany and newly designed MCX connectors from France or anywhere else due to embargo on modern technology and had to find his own way. That's why Polish electronic engineers were sometimes praised for their skills: if you've had access only to uA741 you've just had to be a good engineer to make anything of it (I mean designing any device using only operation amplifiers). Of course, in fact, they've had access to many kinds of electronic elements, not just opamps ;-) .
      Some technologies, like, for example, production of HgCdTe detectors with epitaxial growth were developed in Poland (in 1980's) and became very popular across the world thanks to their low cost, because they were designed by people with constant lack of funds but with many ideas.
      IMO, the poorer the country, the smarter the engineers and scientists. Poland has nothing to export but minds :-)

      Perhaps security was a guard with a gun. - oh man, I won't even comment this...

      after the collapse of the Soviet Union, there may not have been any money or drive to update the system. - I don't know how much of geography and history have you been taught where you live (if you're from US you may not even know the difference between Italy and France ;-) ), but it was Soviet Union that used to be draining goods and money from their satellite countries not the other way. Just think about it - what is the purpose of having a satellite country if you have to pump money to them not to your people?

      P.S. Sorry for my English, I hope that you won't try to find corellation between my language skills and Polish engineers' "good engineering" capability.

      And one other thing: weren't the early remote car alarm systems (from the same time that Lodz trams' automatic switching system was designed) easily hackable too?
  6. Telegraph article by ddrichardson · · Score: 3, Funny

    Here is the article in the Telegraph.

    I particularly enjoyed the phrase:

    The incident is the latest in which "hackers" - many of them young computer experts - have broken into computer systems.

    As they then list two incedents since 1999 and the Boeing 787 concern.

    --
    A thistle is a fat salad for an ass's mouth...
  7. Needs a challenge by Thelasko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds like this kid was not adequately challenged by his school. At least that's what the story leads me to believe. If I was the judge I would let him off on the condition that he goes to a school where his curiosity will be encouraged but given enough direction so he doesn't get into more trouble.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  8. Re:Leave it to the Polish! by Dmala · · Score: 2

    Yeah, Poland is so backwards. In the US, we don't need teenagers to derail our trains.

  9. Video by Nutty_Irishman · · Score: 5, Funny

    Local authorities released this video capturing the culprits in their crime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiAk5vqvn3A

  10. OK, I have to ask by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 4, Funny

    on Tuesday when a driver attempting to steer his vehicle to the right was involuntarily taken to the left. As a result the rear wagon of the train jumped the rails and collided with another passing tram

    IANATE (I Am Not A Tram Expert), but if it was on RAILS, how or why would you STEER it?
  11. Why is it that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why is it that facility operators, be it trains, power plants, oil refineries, or anything have pathetic security, and when something does happen, they blame it totally on the perp who likely never had to confront even a single lock, much less a guard?

    Makes me wonder if countries should have a special regulatory team whose job it is to attempt break ins on a regular basis to various areas, and levy fines to organizations failing compliance. Only problem is areas where people shoot to kill... telling a tiger team from a genuine trespasser/burglar/criminal before pulling the trigger.

  12. Re:I have a suggestion. by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This might be what gave him the idea in the first place.

  13. Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by Palal · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the US many places with newer traffic signal circuitry (at least on the west coast) have something called Signal Pre-Emption.

    This allows emergency vehicles to by-pass traffic lights by turning them green. It uses an IR transponder on vehicles, and an IR receiver on lights. When a certain frequency (pulse) is sent out from the vehicle and picked up by the receiver, the light turns green.

    Before you try to build a device to do that I want to say 2 things:
    1. Devices are available on the 'black market', and
    2. Every time this signal gets sent, it gets recorded in a log. There have been cases of people getting caught using these and the fines are hefty.


    The same system is used, called "Signal Priority" can be used by buses to hold the light green or trigger an early green in various circumstances. (Basically this involves sending out a frequency that's different from Emergency vehicles.

    I bet that Lodz uses a similar technology for its trams, but maybe they thought nobody could figure it out, so they simply went with security via obscurity (or whatever the term for it is).

    Czech Republic has a single system (as in same system type, not same transponders) in the entire country for its trams and trolley buses and uses something similar to your car key remote.

    If anyone manages to figure out how the signal pre-emption works, please post details online :).

    --
    -Palal
    1. Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 5, Informative

      Some places have a more inteligent system: The signal turns the light Red (in all directions), and the emergency vechicles just go through the red lights.

      Works just as well, and less suceptable to hacks. (Not impossible of course, but less chance of people doing it for their own benifit.)

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    2. Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Those people that panic and don't move promptly should have their licenses revoked.

      This whole thread is pissing me off. "He was young and didn't know what he was doing..." BS. If the kid is smart enough to hack into a system, he's easily smart enough to know how much a train weighs and what damage a train derailment will cause. Send this kid to jail!

      Secondly, I hate when people excuse bad driving as normal. It's not acceptable. If you don't clear the intersection when emergency vehicles are coming, you shouldn't be driving, period. If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked. If you can't PARK YOUR CAR without extreme effort, license REVOKED! If you took licenses away from all the people that shouldn't have them for safety reasons, there would be 50% fewer people on the road, AT LEAST.

      I hate people.

      --
      evil adrian
    3. Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by cp.tar · · Score: 5, Informative

      The downside to that approach is that emergency vehicles encounter cars stopped at a red light at every intersection. Where I live, drivers panic when an emergency vehicle approaches, move their car six inches towards the side of the road, and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway.

      I've heard emergency drivers say: "If you don't know what to do and where to go when you see/hear an emergency vehicle, simply stop. It's much easier to manage your way around a halted vehicle than around one whose driver is panicking."

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    4. Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by jonbrewer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Lodz has had electric trams since 1898 - and while it's not likely any of the original track or switches are in use, the system is not new. Turning at too rapid a rate will cause derailment. I've seen a fair number of older generation trams derailed on similar Polish systems, especially around the old town of Krakow. Somehow I doubt that Lodz have a spanking new fleet of low-floor trams that have required system-wide track upgrades to run. I imagine the trams that derailed were built in the 1960s.

      As for the engineers being "grossly incompetent", I really don't think so. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the system hacked was decades old, designed by folks who had no reason to think that anyone would ever have the means or desire to circumvent the system.

      (FYI those 1960s electric trains are far better transport than any diesel bus I've ever been on, and the new low-floor trams are like something out of a sci-fi movie!)

    5. Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Secondly, I hate when people excuse bad driving as normal. It's not acceptable. If you don't clear the intersection when emergency vehicles are coming, you shouldn't be driving, period. If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked. If you can't PARK YOUR CAR without extreme effort, license REVOKED! If you took licenses away from all the people that shouldn't have them for safety reasons, there would be 50% fewer people on the road, AT LEAST.

      So, if more than 50% of the people are kept off the road because you don't like how they drive, perhaps they should round YOU up, get rid of YOU, and drive as they see fit without interference from micromanaging busy bodies who think we're obligated to operate in a way that you can predict and write down?

      You know, there have been numerous suppressed studies demonstrating that road rules and signs actually make driving less safe because they give a false sense of security. I don't have a link at my fingertips, but there have been several of them done. The safest way to structure roads is to remove all signs and controls, and force people to remain interactive with the environment rather than being hypnotized into routine. The reason the highly structured and regulated road systems continue is because they are an industry with an interest in self-preservation, and a cash cow for government, not because they are a good way to do things.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    6. Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption by sn00ker · · Score: 2, Informative

      The downside to that approach is that emergency vehicles encounter cars stopped at a red light at every intersection. Where I live, drivers panic when an emergency vehicle approaches, move their car six inches towards the side of the road, and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway.
      I've heard emergency drivers say: "If you don't know what to do and where to go when you see/hear an emergency vehicle, simply stop. It's much easier to manage your way around a halted vehicle than around one whose driver is panicking."
      I definitely agree with the "stop" rule. Unless the only way they can get around you without having to cross a traffic island is for you to move your car, just stay the hell still!
      I'm not a trained emergency response driver, but when I was in the Fire Service here I rode as front-seat passenger more than a few times in vehicles responding as urgent traffic. Emergency drivers know the dimensions of their vehicle, and they know its maneuvering limitations. They can deal better with your car being a stationary obstacle than a moving one, especially since they cannot read the minds of other drivers.

      The other thing to consider is that most jurisdictions will not give a waiver of liability to a driver who goes through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle through. If you're in a crash, you ran a red light. You might be able to escape prosecution for a minor crash, but your insurance company is still going to hold you liable.

      --
      "God, root, what is difference?" - Pitr, userfriendly
  14. I'm taking the troll -- on encryption, etc. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, yes and no. Just give a bit of serious thought to the issue... I'm at work, have to AC.

    It sounds as though the system worked of infrared pulse encoding, and that is why he could use a modified television remote. Imagine you are the one designing this (probably in the 1970's or 1980's...) It is generally desirable to keep things simple to ensure they actually *work* -- that is, having a rolling code that may be out of sync while having a signalling train hurtle toward the junction at 80 mph is not desirable -- you want a simple system that the train can activate if needed.

    Anybody who has worked with security (my job) knows that the more layers you add, the harder (network) testing is, and the more ways something can go VERY wrong for a legitimate user.

    If the train couldn't switch the junction box because it didn't have the right "password," you would also criticize the engineers.

    I defend the train design -- this should be treated as sabotage, and is more along the continuum of putting a penny on the tracks or mechanically interfering with a junction box, things that are also dangerous, illegal, and difficult to defend entirely against.

  15. Engineers who built such... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...heinously vulnerable systems are the ones who should get locked up in jail.

  16. Re:Leave it to the Polish! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yeah, Poland is so backwards.

    I know. in fact, they call RPN just "notation" !

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  17. Re:OK, I have to ask by ThreeGigs · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tram line 21 runs east to west.
    Tram line 19 runs east to west on 21's tracks, then turns onto a north-south track heading south.

    Driver of 19 sets his left-straight-right turn lever to broadcast "right".
    Kid overrides with a left, lead car turns left.
    Kid stops overriding, the junction again sees the signal on the tram to switch to turn right, and the second car goes right, causing a derailment.

    In the US, most remote junction switches have a fail-safe that prevents the tracks from switching if there's a car over the junction, thus preventing driver error or malicious external elements from causing a derailment by making the train go in 2 directions at once. Apparently no such fail-safe is present on the systems in Lodz (pronounced 'woodj' in Polish).

  18. Re:The high cost of evolution. by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes security should have been implemented but why should one group have to defend themselves against another group? It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.

    Is this not the rationale for penetration testing?
    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  19. Re:OK, I have to answer by MistrBlank · · Score: 2, Informative

    And my guess is the conductor normally controls these switches with remote... not the kid outside of the train with a hacked TV remote.

  20. Fire the safety department by alextheseal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The whole safety department of that tram line should be fired. A system hackable via a TV remote and unencyrpted signals subject to relay attacks should not be deployed ever. They should be sacked for having allowed it. Same goes for the "traffic light" systems here in the US with the same flaws. Course I didn't RTFA so maybe he even cracked the encryption. In which case only sack the designer of the encryption.

  21. Re:Obligatory tasteless Polack joke. by dorix · · Score: 2, Funny

    Long ago, when sailing ships ruled the sea, this captain and his crew were always in danger of being boarded by pirates from a pirate ship.

    One day while they were sailing, they saw that a pirate ship had sent a boarding party to try and board their ship. The crew became worried, but the Captain was calm.

    He bellowed to his First Mate, "Bring me my red shirt!"

    The First Mate quickly got the Captain's red shirt, which the captain put on. Then he led his crew into battle against the mean pirates. Although there were some casualties among the crew, the pirates were defeated.

    Later that day, the lookout screamed that there were two pirate vessels sending two boarding parties towards their ship. The crew was nervous, but the Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, "Bring me my red shirt!" And once again the battle was on!

    The Captain and his crew fought off the boarding parties, though this time more casualties occurred.

    Weary from the battles, the men sat around on deck that night recounting the day's events when an ensign looked at the Captain and asked, "Sir, why did you call for your red shirt before the battle?"

    The Captain, giving the ensign a look that only a captain can give, explained, "If I am wounded in battle, the red shirt does not show the blood, so you men will continue to fight unafraid." The men sat in silence. They were amazed at the courage of such a man.

    As dawn came the next morning, the lookout screamed that there were pirate ships, 10 of them, all with boarding parties on their way. The men became silent and looked to the Captain, their leader, for his usual command.

    The Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, 'Bring me my brown pants!!!'

  22. Yes, there's an RF remote for the thing by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is a street tram switching system similar to the Elektroline system. It's not a full signalling system with interlocking. The tram driver is in control, and has an RF transmitter which can control switches. The current generation, the "TRAMVYS 6K", is an RF transmitter on 433.9 or 868.35 MHz. Normal range is very short, about 2M, with the transmitter down on the front truck of the tram and the receiver buried in the road. But it could probably be triggered by someone at the side of the street with a suitable transmitter. This system is interlocked so that the switch can't change position underneath a tram.

    That's current technology. Older systems are much dumber. Some of this stuff is at the garage-door-opener level of RF devices. The Lodz tram system dates from 1898, so they have lots of legacy trackwork.

    1. Re:Yes, there's an RF remote for the thing by GiMP · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is interesting that you note the distance required. It isn't mentioned at the Register, but the Polish news sources have said that he was riding inside of the trams that were being controlled.

  23. He could have done better.. by DigitAl56K · · Score: 2, Funny

    Four trams derailed in the process injuring a number of passengers.

    I know he hacked this together out of a remote control, but that's a horribly inefficient process he created - surely it's possible to injure the passengers without derailing the trams! ;)

  24. Re:The high cost of evolution. by Doctor-Optimal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.

    Is this not the rationale for penetration testing?

    It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.

    Which sort is this 14 year old who derailed 4 trains and injured people again?
    I'm not saying his punishment should be harsh but he *did* do wrong here and knew or should have known that he was doing wrong.
    --
    New punctuation update "~" (no quotes) at the end of a line to indicate sarcasm. ~
  25. Re:OK, I have to ask by Hymer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Tram switches (or turnouts) are not like railway switches which are controlled from a central point. A tram switch is controlled by the driver of the tram either by a electromagnetic contact between the rails or by radiowaves. All tram switches may also be operated manually.

  26. Road rage much? by PhxBlue · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Now, I'm all for people driving the speed limit, maybe a little more. But legally, the speed limit is an upper limit, not a lower limit. And people who drive like the speed limit is just a guideline tend, in my experience, to be more prone to road rage than those who actually obey it.

    This whole thread is pissing me off. ... I hate people.

    Maybe you should consider a class in anger management. Or take a deep breath and put on some jazz music when you get in heavy traffic.

    --
    !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  27. Re:Leave it to the Polish! by earlymon · · Score: 2, Informative

    And not that I have anything aginst the Polish... No, of course you don't. Rather than flame, I'll try education. The original was taken down, these will have to do.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quld5950v6w
    Alternate video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lSaYx6ttuE&feature=related
    5 lies about Poland (try not to knock the spelling - check your own) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p67IVwRUilc&feature=related

    Here's the kernel of truth underlying all those Polish jokes - most people can't seem to pull themselves up, so they choose someone superior to pull down to make themselves feel better.

    Best luck to you.
    --
    Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.