14-Year-Old Turns Tram System Into Personal Train Set

F-3582 writes "By modifying a TV remote a 14-year-old boy from Lodz, Poland, managed to gain control over the junctions of the tracks. According to The Register the boy had 'trespassed in tram depots to gather information needed to build the device. [...] Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit.' Four trams derailed in the process injuring a number of passengers. The boy is now looking at 'charges at a special juvenile court of endangering public safety.'"

Comments

how many other "systems" like this?

[yagu]

I know some kids who are extremely bright, curious, and for lack of a better description, "like to experiment". Any one of these I think could have done the same thing, and with completely innocent (though mischievous) intent. For playing with such big toys in such a fashion there should be repercussions. But the kids I know who also could have done something like this would be much more on track with thinking about how they're moving switches than about what moving those switches implies.

However, I'm led to a different train of thought. What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference? I'm betting there are a "few". I wonder that in the process of designing something like this if we must pay more attention to the possibility of outsiders tinkering. I hope France's TGV has a bit more built in checks and balances than this. I hope the new Boeing 787 has more security built in than this.

I actually think (and hope) this kid's imagination and curiosity somehow gets channeled rather than squashed. He actually sounds like he could be a contributor. Of course, he's at least grounded for the next month.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[show me altoids]

Reminds me of Johnny.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[_spider_]

I think we are bound to see more and more of this, after all, in this day and age, parents get their kids a Wii/xBox,PSx/etc in lieu of more challenging and creative toys probably a lot of us grew up with like Legos, Lincoln logs, erector sets, . . . things that I think are challenging and engaging.

I'm proud for the kid in the sense that he put his mind to work, but at the same time, no points for lacking discretion, and a good sense of responsibility. And I don't think he should get a free pass just because he is a kid. If he is smart enough to do what he did, I think its entirely reasonable to assume that he had the capacity to know what the effects may be.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Kelbear]

14 year olds are young, but not so young to not realize that swapping train tracks around will affect what happens to trains when they reach that section of track. They might not follow that train of thought(pun intended) through to what the actual aftermath may look like, but it's no stretch of intelligence to conclude that a massive train moving at significant speeds will have a significant consequences when directed somewhere unexpectedly.

Not that I'm recommending dire consequences for the boy, I'm just saying that there is probably some malicious intent here, though he probably didn't calculate the magnitude of his mischief either. I'm envisioning something like: "I'm gonna screw around with this and it'll be funny watching them try to fix i--*FOOM*...oh...wow...shit I better go".

(And jeez, whoever designed that system that way is going to have a whole mess of flying poop coming their way).

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Fozzyuw]

What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference?

They don't want you to pull out your Radio Controller and start making the plane do loop-de-loops. =P

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Khyber]

"What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference?"

Our defense and nuclear systems, for one example. I'm sure a /. search would turn up many such incidents.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[ceoyoyo]

He's not a five year old. By fourteen if you don't have a decent handle on consequences then you need to feel some to get you caught up with everyone else. When I was 14 it was old enough to get a learning drivers license. I think they changed that now, but it's still only two years younger than getting a full drivers license, entitling you to pilot a multithousand ton piece of ambulatory steel at high speed. Fourteen is also a common age to start being paid to watch other people's children, ie babysitting.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[kalirion]

Reminds me of Ed and her little RC-plane controller.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I know some kids who are extremely bright, curious, and for lack of
a better description, "like to experiment". Any one of these I think
could have done the same thing, and with completely innocent
(though mischievous) intent. For playing with such big toys in
such a fashion there should be repercussions. But the kids I know who
also could have done something like this would be much more on track
with thinking about how they're moving switches than about what moving
those switches implies.

I'm all for helping creativity grow, but the problem here was that he wasn't thinking about the passengers of these machines he was fucking around with.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[cayenne8]

I wonder how they caught him??

I mean, if he was stealthy, I don't see how they'd catch him. Did he post a brag about it on MySpace or something?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[SleptThroughClass]

As a 14 year old I was quite aware of what would be involved with a train changing tracks, but that is because I actually had studied trains and was consciously aware of the physics involved in their movement. Someone who was focused on the field of electronics might not have considered the physical effects of tons of material being jerked sideways. More NASCAR, fewer video games.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[cheater512]

Its a slow moving tram system, not a high speed commuter train.

The only malice I'd imagine is curiosity.
I probably would have done the same thing at that age just to see if it would work.
Apparently the designers were so stupid that it did work.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[fm6]

I actually think (and hope) this kid's imagination and curiosity somehow gets channeled rather than squashed. He actually sounds like he could be a contributor.

That can actually said about almost any adolescent. The same qualities that make them hard for adults to live with are the ones that they use to create their own adulthood. The trick is to allow them to go through this stage without hurting anybody.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[towerdave]

entitling you to pilot a multithousand ton piece of ambulatory steel at high speed. What were you driving? An aircraft carrier!?! Multi-thousand to... Oh you meant pounds. I get it. TD

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Lemmy Caution]

Many 14 year olds are angry, isolated, and misanthropic, in the throes of adolescent angst and frustration. He may have been indifferent at best to the harm he could have caused. There were times in my own adolescence I was angry and self-pitying to the point of sociopathy.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[fbjon]

"Being a teenager like everybody else" isn't quite an excuse, though.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[ChrisMounce]

However, I'm led to a different train of thought. By a Polish-built remote, no doubt.

But seriously, I agree with your points and also hope they go easy on the poor kid. On some level, he likely knew what he was doing was wrong (I'm guessing he never bragged to his parents/teachers about what he was doing), and he should be punished accordingly. But it's not like he wanted to cause any damage (from the toy perspective, why break a perfectly good train set?).

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be from "Assholland"

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[rbanffy]

This reminds me of a Mythbusters episode when they investigated how deadly a coin falling from the top of the Empire State Building would be to someone down on the street. They interviewed a lady that lives (or works) a couple dozen floors down, where most of the coins end up falling and she wondered what they had in mind - because they are either throwing money away for no reason or they are throwing it away because they are trying to get someone killed on the streets below.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[ideapete]

Sadly many many more

Totally agree, very bright kid

Lets see TV remote now what is MacGyver in Polish

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Neanderthal Ninny]

Like many children that are bright they need a good outlet of these talents. However in "their" society there is no outlet of this so these children do these "misdeeds" to show how smart they are. Like any society some of us don't want to allow an good outlet for these people that are talented in other fields, like this child. Why do we pick on this child? If an bright child could to this then a terrorist can do this also. This child show us that we need to secure these systems better.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[bangthegong]

If you've never read this book you should check it out. As far as being grounded for a month, property was damaged and people were hurt. I think he's going to get a bit more than "no TV for you, son!"

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[BattleApple]

They might not follow that train of thought...
At 14, I never would have conducted myself in such an irresponsible manner

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[TamCaP]

I read on one of the Polish websites about this guy, and he contacted the local public transportation club and was asking way too many questions (either during a meeting or on a webforum). As he didn't join the club / pay the fees and he disappeared immediately, it seemed a bit awkward. When the trams started behaving strangely, the authorities suspected outside interference and contacted the club leader for any information. The club leader recalled this strange guy asking too many questions, and the rest is history.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[nospam007]

I hope France's TGV has a bit more built in checks and balances than this.

___

Yes. Every switch has several modems that send messages on separate channels about their position and status (locking etc) to the computers responsible for the track blocking, (not sure about the english tech terms)
3 computers check these and at least 2 of them must agree before the signal gets set to green.
That's just the low level stuff there's more going on on a higher level where more computers are checking.
It's old tech from the seventies, most stuff runs on OpenVMS because originally it was run on VAX systems, but it's seldom down.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Scooter's_dad]

However, I'm led to a different train of thought.

Hope the kid doesn't control that train, too!

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Ucklak]

As a 14 year old through 18 years, I never paid for a payphone call.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[mrdarreng]

Any one of these I think could have done the same thing, and with completely innocent (though mischievous) intent. Mischievous and innocent are mutually exclusive.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[petermgreen]

how slow is slow?

even at 20mph or so a head on collision is going to do quite a bit of damage.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[das_magpie]

I think its amazing that a 14yo worked this out and then put in extra time to try and analyze the workings of the tracks. I wonder if he had any aid from anyone who knew more on the subject?

Either way I think the boy probably thought that a Tram system would be ok to play with as light rail does not generally travel at speeds over 30km/h.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Movi]

He was in the tram that he tripped over. He confessed

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[SkyDude]

I'm proud for the kid in the sense that he put his mind to work, but at the same time, no points for lacking discretion, and a good sense of responsibility. And I don't think he should get a free pass just because he is a kid. If he is smart enough to do what he did, I think its entirely reasonable to assume that he had the capacity to know what the effects may be.

Proud of him? I wonder if you'd say that, even in the context you did, if you or your family had been one of the injured.

Kevin Mitnick did hard time for his snooping around a computer system, and no one was injured. Without debating the appropriateness of his sentence, it seems he received a much harsher sentence than you'd give this brat. Given the UK's approach to terrorist problems, he'd be lucky to get off with twenty-five years.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[eat here_get gas]

everyone knows their called "hollandaise", who do you think invented the sauce?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[SkyDude]

OK so it wasn't in the UK. It was Poland. Need to clean my glasses.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[LordLucless]

That might have been possible the first time. But he did it FOUR times. After he saw the first tram derail, then the consequences would have been made abundantly clear. The fact that he continued shows that he either didn't care, or enjoyed it.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[ceoyoyo]

Whoops. Yeah.

Actually, you can get an aircraft carrier (boat) license even younger.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[ACMENEWSLLC]

We are rural, but there are a lot of trains around here. We had the largest switching yard in our area back 80 years ago.

It's not quite that big now, but I have noticed train junctions being changed by hand. Is there anything in place to prevent that? I didn't notice a key being required, but I wasn't really looking for it either.

While I agree, they should be using some basic rotating keys (RSA?) and encrypt their signal, there is a point where society only works if people are trying to make it work. Think about that while you are driving home. Any one of those cars could decide to take you out. Anyone can dump a box of nails on the road or clip your brake lines. Why don't they? Same reason this kid shouldn't have done what he did.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[luder]

What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference?

Here's a video of a german teenager messing up with road information panels. Apparently, he got a copy of the software used by authorities to change those displays. It seems that anyone in the possession of that software and a wireless card can do it. Maybe someone who knows german can give more details.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[snowraver1]

Yeah, me neither. At that time, I bought a cell phone, making the pay phone obsolete.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Dr. Cody]

Or he could be charitable, putting people condemned to a life living in Lódz out of their misery.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Pig Hogger]

What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference?

I hope France's TGV has a bit more built in checks and balances than this.

One has to keep in mind that a streetcar network is **NOT** a (high-speed or not) rail network.

Rail network safety evolved gradually over the last 150 years to the point of being particularly fail-safe about a century ago.

Streetcars and trains are operated in totally different ways. Streetcars are run pretty much like buses or cars, and so rely on the driver's vision to keep a safe distance between trains (sometimes, signals are used in very specific circumstances such as blind spots). One thing that helps in that department is that the streetcar usually operates at a much lower speed than a train, and, most importantly, can come to a stop in a very short distance.

Trains, on the other hand, have a much longer stopping distance. A freight train at 100 km/h can take 2-3 km to stop. So, therefore, the safe space interval between trains has to be correspondingly longer, hence the reliance on signalling systems (it's hard to see 3 km ahead on a winding mountain line).

Streetcars can work with a system that let motormen change switches by pressing a button inside their cabs; the speeds involved are low, and it's really like driving a car. If someone gets in the way, you just stop. This is why they can design a remote control switch operation that runs like a TV remote.

A railroad network, on the other hand, will have a full fledged signalling **POLICY**, that is either implemented manually by people following strict procedures with redundant oversight (when someone on the line is told to do something by the dispatcher, he tells everyone that what he does, so if anyone hears a discrepancy, he can say it right away), follow-up and paper trail (every time a train passes by is precisely logged on a sheet, hence the extensive measures taken by rail systems to insure that everyone's watch/clock is synchronized to the second), or some sort of interlocking automated signalling system that automagically offers the above safeguards (with reduntancy and fail-safe engineered into the works).

First of all, to run a train from A to B, you need an itineary. That is, the set of track sections that will be taken by the train, as well as the various switches that will send the train from one section to the other.

This is done by setting the route by turning the switches to the proper position in order to establish the itineary. To do that, you either tell (by telephone or telegraph) people at various stations to manually turn switches a specific way, or punch buttons on a control console.

Once you have the route set, you give the go ahead ("green signal"). One important characteristic of interlocking is that you cannot give the "green signal" without having a route set, and once you give the "green signal", you cannot change the route, nor you can set a conflicting route that may send another train into the train's path.

You do not have that in streetcar systems, hence the kid's facility in playing with switches.

So, do not worry, it's not possible to play trainset with a remote and a real railroad. To do so, you'd have to break into the signalling network...

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Pig Hogger]

It's not quite that big now, but I have noticed train junctions being changed by hand. Is there anything in place to prevent that?

Yes, it's called a "switch lock", and it happens to be a padlock...

However, in a railroad yards, switches often are not locked, but secured with a hook inserted where the padlock normally goes. They can do this in a yard because of the lower speeds trains run in yards, and by the fact that you have to check every switch orientation before going through.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Scud]

(And jeez, whoever designed that system that way is going to have a whole mess of flying poop coming their way). Not really, we had a RC system to run our little (900hp) switcher around. The only safety feature that it had was a tilt switch to detect if the operator had fallen down.

http://www.dlund.20m.com/images/1abbELS1200a.JPG

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Lemmy Caution]

Yes, I agree. My point wasn't to excuse the behavior; it was to develop the point that this action may be much less innocent than simple hackerly curiosity - and that even simple hackerly curiosity isn't always that simple.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Bluesman]

It was probably a Volvo 240, like my first car.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Muhammar]

Never forget that these things are done first time to figure out if can be done at all - and the second, third and fourth time for the benefit of friends (and sometimes alone too, to fight the boredom). Sharing the exitement of discovery and earning the bragging rights is your reward. Many bright guys at the age 14 are pretty sociopathically disposed.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Frogbert]

Reminds me of this guy.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[LordLucless]

Which would fall under the "didn't care" category. I wasn't arguing that he wasn't sociopathic, I was arguing that he most definately did know what he was doing, if not on the first, then at least on the subsequent attempts,

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Jarik_Tentsu]

I guess this is where maturity comes in.

For a fourteen year old to do that...well, wow.

But he didn't think about potential consequences - due to the lack of maturity.

~Jarik

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[The_mad_linguist]

Reminds me of the radioactive boyscout. http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[i.of.the.storm]

Great, let's not derail this thread with too many puns... oops! Too late.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Laughing Pigeon]

Neither did I. By the time I was 18 I had no one left to call because every one of my friends and family had become so sick of those collect calls.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[rew]

What is wrong with the united states? Why not offer the 14 year old a job, on the condition he finishes college first? And prosecute whomever designed that system?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[GNUThomson]

He may have done this by mistake. What if he was in the development phase and his remote wasn't 100% reliable? Also it may be possible that he didn't know which section of tracks was the proper one. You guys wrote lots of software and implemented lots of systems. It worked perfectly the first and every time, right? No? Oh...

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[umghhh]

according to articles in polish press the junctions lacked protection against switching (accidental or otherwise) during the time the trams were passing them. This had nothing to do with naivety but with money - the company owning the tracks and trams said that they (the devices protecting against said switching) are to expensive. It is then not design problem but management one.

Malpractice at management level, typically and not only in Poland thinks in terms of bonuses assigned due to saving programs instead of security, quality and last but not least efficiency. Thus they save to get the bonus instead of save to get efficiency etc.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[rush242]

"What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference?"

Our defense and nuclear systems, for one example. I'm sure a /. search would turn up many such incidents. That's simply ignorant. While there have been any number of "lost" nuclear weapons (meaning they generally aren't lost, they're considered unrecoverable), that has usually been due to mechanical failures, not systematic or structural failures.

Although there are limits to safety with extremely dangerous devices, U.S. nuclear systems were/are extremely secure. So secure that the most powerful of them are left essentially unguarded in holes in the ground.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[jacquesm]

because it's called 'The Netherlands', which probably makes us 'neanderthals'

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[jacquesm]

nothing, it is just that Lodz (that 'l' is pronounced as a w and should have a backslash through it) is in Poland...

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[jc42]

What is wrong with the united states?

it is just that Lodz [we really need unicode here] is in Poland.

Heh. Both the US and Poland seem to be infested with "authorities" whose natural reaction is to blame the messenger rather than the people who should be responsible.

Of course, the kid needs a stern talking-to. But you'd think that anyone who has ever watched kids playing with toy trains, cars, transformers, etc would have the sense to understand that kids naturally repeat toy disasters over and over, often until the toys are damaged. A sensible adult would recognize this as typical juvenile behavior, to be handled with education rather than punishment. You don't really want to prevent kids from play-crashing toys (even big ones); doing that is shooting your future economy in the foot by stifling your budding engineers. You want to limit their play to toys that can't do any real harm.

The real criminals here are the people who set up the system so that a child can do unsupervised play with adult toys. Sorta like the people who keep their guns in containers that aren't child proof, or who don't install child-resistant latches on their floor-level kitchen cabinet doors (especially the ones under the sink where the child can find the bottles of toxic chemicals).

I wonder how the Polish authorities are treating the adults who run the tram system? I notice that the Reg's article makes no mention of that question.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[ultranova]

I'm proud for the kid in the sense that he put his mind to work, but at the same time, no points for lacking discretion, and a good sense of responsibility. And I don't think he should get a free pass just because he is a kid. If he is smart enough to do what he did, I think its entirely reasonable to assume that he had the capacity to know what the effects may be.

Back when I was in school, around 20 as I recall, someone offered to send porn over email to askers. So, naturally, being a young man, I asked all 4GB of it. Unfortunately, the email box was only 20 MB, and there was no posssibility of running my own email server in my dorm room. So, I changed the settings in my email client to check the mailbox every ten seconds. Luckily, the other guy had more common sense, and didn't try it.

So, it is entirely possible that this kid never once thought of consequences of playing with his new toy. He is, after all, just 14; and 14 years old is a minor and under his parent's control precisely for the reason that he can't be trusted to use his common sense yet. Not that most majors can either, judging by the number of people who fail to understand that ice is indeed slippery this winter too so you can't drive on it like you can on dry asphalth at summer, but that's besides the point.

I think the Powerpuff Girls (yes, I'm man enough to admit I watched and liked the series) put it best: Just because you're a genius doesn't mean you're smart.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[jacquesm]

It sounds and looks like as if anybody with a 'trainable' remote control could have done this, which means it's utter insanity on the part of the developers of the system. A point in their favour though is that Polish infrastructure is still recovering from decades of neglect and that fancy trim like encrypting a link like this is probably not in the budget. But then again, it couldn't have been more expensive than replacing a bunch of tramway cars.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[TheLink]

If I were her I might try to collect some spare change ;).

That said it might be illegal, considered theft or something.

Oh well...

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[crsm]

What's wrong with Holland ? Why don't they teach their inhabitants to read so they are able to tell that this story is from Poland and not from the United States ?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[snkline]

Public transportation.... club!? Seriously??

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[neomunk]

You're comparing roller coaster tycoon to an erector set and actually implying that the video game is more challenging?

See, NOW I feel old. I always thought that actually studying the engineering aspects and bolting things together to see if you have the design down right took more thought and imagination than 'the computer says this track piece won't fit, better click on the hole digging button'.

Or is it just the fact that if it's not on the big pretty color-making box and just in plain ole' 'real life' (how boring!) it somehow isn't modern enough to even consider being 'challenging'. After all, if it takes more than pressing a button and waiting for a machine to tell you if you hit the RIGHT button, it must be too simple and old fashioned for us modern folk.

In other words, that's just about the dumbest (or at least the most modern-centric) thing I've heard all week. Oh, and remember, this isn't coming from someone who's biased in favor of erector sets or biased against RCT (one of my all time favorite business simulations, and I like that whole genre), just from someone who enjoys them both and understands the limitations both are bound to as well.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[TamCaP]

Sure, they are quite popular in Poland (where I was born, and where it happened). Especially the more sophisticated ones (planes & rails) get lots of attention, however buses have a couple of fans too.
Bunch of guys renovated a little steam-train with their own funds and now are running it on an unused piece of track that they have fixed a bit by themselves too. All non-profit and stuff. Same goes for renovation of old trams or buses. I guess the price of any "cool" and relatively "old" plane (and subsequent maintenance) is prohibitive, because I haven't heard of any.

The rail enthusiast's website (the English version is very poor though).
Another one (Polish only).
Warsaw public transport enthusiasts website.

They guys there are very often people who did related stuff before but had to change profession due to transformation, or just plain enthusiasts.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Elbelow]

Here's a video of a german teenager messing up with road information panels. Apparently, he got a copy of the software used by authorities to change those displays. It seems that anyone in the possession of that software and a wireless card can do it. Maybe someone who knows german can give more details.
s/German/Dutch/g

He doesn't actually say anything that isn't obvious from the images, but he is really pleased with himself :-) . The final text he puts on the display translates as "Max is king ;-) Huge traffic jam, go home."

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Khyber]

You're new here, so let me point out that there's a story here on /. where REMOTE CONTROL OF A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT WAS ACHIEVED HERE IN THE USA. So you keep on thinking that and living in your little world. The search feature is your friend, as I mentioned in my previous post. USE IT.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Khyber]

Here, have a link http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/22/scada-hackers-infrastructure-tech-security-cx_ag_0822hack.html Now, what were you saying about being secure?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[BungaDunga]

Aka oldschool geeks. As a sidenote, do they honestly call them "railfans" in the US? Never heard it.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[rush242]

You're new here, so let me point out that there's a story here on /. where REMOTE CONTROL OF A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT WAS ACHIEVED HERE IN THE USA. So you keep on thinking that and living in your little world. The search feature is your friend, as I mentioned in my previous post. USE IT.

You're having trouble reading so let me point out that my post noted specifically that I was referring to "nuclear weapons," in response to the phrase "defense and nuclear systems."

It's called context. It's reasonable to come to the conclusion that nuclear weapons systems are included in "defense and nuclear systems." Since that's reasonable, it's reasonable that a reader would comment in the context of nuclear weapons. Which I did.

Which is why replies to that particular post concerning the remote control of a "NUCLEAR POWER PLANT" has no bearing. Especially given that rational people should be FAR more concerned over the operational control of a ICBM than operational control of a power station.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[rush242]

Here, have a link ~snip link~ Now, what were you saying about being secure? About the security of nuclear weapons? The same thing I said initially:

"While there have been any number of 'lost' nuclear weapons (meaning they generally aren't lost, they're considered unrecoverable), that has usually been due to mechanical failures, not systematic or structural failures.

"Although there are limits to safety with extremely dangerous devices, U.S. nuclear systems were/are extremely secure. So secure that the most powerful of them are left essentially unguarded in holes in the ground."

I wasn't referring to anything other than "nuclear weapons," which is why I used the phrase "nuclear weapons," and then I illustrated the point by mentioning the status of Minuteman III missiles.

That you provided a link the provides evidence of something I didn't even refer to is more evidence that you cannot read. Now, had you provided evidence of where someone (oh, say, some 14-year-old kid with a remote control) had taken even partial control of a nuclear weapons system, well, then you'd have a point.

Do you have evidence of someone taking remote control of American nuclear weapons systems?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[MorpheousMarty]

Unfortunately being able to understand all the pieces and being able to appreciate the consequences are not the same. A 6 year old can learn chess, but the ability to understand plan ahead takes much longer. I'm not saying what the kid did is ok, he should have known better. What I'm saying is that the kid probably WILL know better, at 14 most people can barely get a grip of their own feelings, and have the judgment of, well, a freshman in High School. Obviously the man or woman you are going to be starts to show at this age, but it scares me how so many people, (the US in particular) seem to think that teenagers are little adults. Mature judgment takes a little longer to develop, otherwise the drinking age wouldn't be 21 right?

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[Ucklak]

Allright, got me.
Cell phones didn't exist then weren't affordable then for me.
Knowing some Bell South codes worked in rural areas, having a Walkman with the DTMF numbers from my Commodore 64 also worked.

Re:how many other "systems" like this?

[msromike]

The article:
[..] Four trams derailed in the process injuring a number of passengers. The boy is now looking at 'charges at a special juvenile court [..]

Part of your response:
[..] hope) this kid's imagination and curiosity somehow gets channeled rather than squashed. He actually sounds like he could be a contributor. [..]

I realize this is SlashDot and sometimes it is hard for some of you to hang onto reality. So let me put this in tems you might understand.

What would Spiderman or Superman do if there was an evil genius running around the metropolis derailing trains and injuring (potentially killing) people? The answer is not "channel him so he can be a contributor."

Get a frigging grip.

wtf

[JohnFluxx]

It should be the enginners and their bosses that should be the ones facing criminal charges.

Re:wtf

[MightyMartian]

No bloody kidding. Yeah, the kid was doing what he shouldn't have, but who the hell develops something as critical as switch controls for a $#@!@% tram that can be so easily overridden. I don't buy this "not exposed" BS. That's why, in the old days of manual switches, you had padlocks on them to stop the earlier, low-tech version of this stunt.

Once they've finished throwing the book at this kid, someone ought to look at getting him into a decent technical school. Maybe, in a decade, he can replace the retarded engineers.

Re:wtf

[mea37]

If by that you mean that the engineers (responsible for design of the system) and their bosses should also be facing criminal charges, then yes, they should.

That doesn't mean what the boy did was ok, or that he shouldn't be facing charges, though. While he is young and might not be held to the same standard of foresight as an adult, still his behavior cannot be excused as merely impulsive considering the time and effort involved. Even if he isn't held fully accountable for endangering lives, still he had to know he would be causing considerable disruption.

I'm curious, though, about the details of the tram system in question. The article describes a tram operator trying to go one way while the track pushed him the other way... so I assume these are not strictly rail-following vehicles (like trains) that have only an accelerator and a brake?

Re:wtf

[ShieldW0lf]

There are two entire generations who have been disenfranchised from their society, and they won't have any connection to it in the foreseeable future because economics, politics and a population bust have seen to it that there is no peaceful way to have any influence or involvement.

Young people resent the system because in all material ways, it really does disempower them and keep them small and subservient.

The older generation appreciate it because, for them, it does the opposite. For them, it is an expression of and mechanism for empowerment.

That's why young people don't care about the systems that dominate our world, and why old people lend their support to increasingly totalitarian methods of controlling people.

They're not going to let this guy grow into anything that might threaten them. They might use education to specialize and stunt his development until he's utterly dependent on them, then use him as a sort of pet/tool once he has no means by which to make use of any freedom, or they might just stunt and destroy him with confinement.

Re:wtf

[SargentDU]

He's (or She's) a coward, but mod this up. I agree with his or her sarcasm. Engineer's design worked as spec'd.

Re:wtf

[eebly]

Many tram systems have operator-controlled switches. In the old days (and still in some places, like Prague) switches are set by an operator manually. This system appears to basically be the same thing through proximity IR control.
On railroads, switches are mostly controlled from a central dispatch office.

Re:wtf

[shawn(at)fsu]

Why is it whenever their is a story like this on /. people come running out of the woodwork to say how the designers should be the ones to face criminal charges. Why do we defend the "precious snowflakes" when they were the ones that consciously and willfully committed the act? Unless they can find proof where the designers and engineers said "Hey lets make this system easy to hack so we can watch some kid play havoc with our system and maybe even get some one killed", I would be hard pressed to say they are at fault. Just becuase some kid is inventive or clever doesn't mean that he also can't be a criminal.

Re:wtf

[Gertlex]

Once they've finished throwing the book at this kid, someone ought to look at getting him into a decent technical school. Maybe, in a decade, he can replace the retarded engineers.

He's just as "retarded" as the engineers if he indeed did not stop to think of the consequences (derailing of trams) of his hack. Granted, it might well be that with a bit of proper training he'll pay much more attention to the effects of solutions, and end up being the better engineer.

Re:wtf

[MightyMartian]

One expects a lack of forethought and responsibility from teenagers. It's practically the defining characteristic of that stage of life. One expects a good deal from adult engineers.

Re:wtf

[cheater512]

I'd imagine the derailing was a accident.
Probably couldnt control everything quick enough from a tv remote.

Re:wtf

[pilgrim23]

that is why the kid is facing the law; he is guilty of showing the Railroad People to be damn fools and it is AGAINST THE LAW to point out the Emperor's new clothes..

Re:wtf

[Torvaun]

Responsible engineers speak up when they see bad specs. Honestly, how hard would it be to have trains that can automatically set the junction to the correct position? Just slap a continuously broadcasting remote control on the damn thing.

Re:wtf

[imbaczek]

I live in Poland; news sources say that they indeed are under investigation.

Re:wtf

[peragrin]

Any logical course would be both. First charges againist the person in question for endangering lives. Then you go after the engineers who designed a system that could be hijacked. Anyone with half a brain would see how easily the kid bypassed the setup, and go after the designers. It is why Engineers need to be licensed. it is why archeticts need to be licensed.

When Lives are on the line, you don't do stupid shit and allow it to go unpunished. Who was responsible for the Tacomna narrows bridge? The guy who barely made it off of it alive? Or the people who designed the system to begin with?

Re:wtf

[Joe The Dragon]

and even then there are still side tracks that have manually controlled switches and they have pad locks on them to keep people from moving them.

Re:wtf

[fbjon]

Honestly, how hard would it be to have trains that can automatically set the junction to the correct position It is impossible. Train tracks can't read minds, much less decide whether the driver wants to go left or right.

Also, I agree that the engineers/designers/managers are responsible for the lack of security, but that does not in any way diminish the blame on the 14-year old kid. Derailing heavy machinery with passengers, in the middle of traffic (one tram derailed into an oncoming tram) is simply irresponsible no matter how easy it may be. Said kid requires a smack with the cluebat.

Re:wtf

[shawn(at)fsu]

I agree that engineers need to be held accountable, but protecting against nature is totally different that protecting against a person with a malicious purpose.

The Tacoma narrows analogy is completely flawed. The guy who barely made it off alive (who also had a dog in the car that wasn't so lucky) had nothing to do with causing the bridge to fail. The Bridge was flawed, it didn't come crashing down becuase of human intervention. It was a victim of not adequately accounting for nature and the laws of physics and engineering. The Tram system was a victim of a kid exploiting the system. Now if the tracks failed becuase sunlight caused the tracks to switch and this caused the accident then by all means charge the engineers with criminal negligence and have their license revoked.

To charge them you have to look at a whole slew of factors, when was the system designed, was this crime common when it was designed. Was the new system more or less secure than the old system, how could it have been prevented etc etc. That will be a lot more difficult and error prone than charging the kid who knew what he was doing and achieved his goal.

Re:wtf

[shawn(at)fsu]

especially if it has the response time of my Tivo remote :)

Re:wtf

[cp.tar]

There are two entire generations who have been disenfranchised from their society, and they won't have any connection to it in the foreseeable future because economics, politics and a population bust have seen to it that there is no peaceful way to have any influence or involvement.

I don't exactly live in the developed world, but it is much the same here as well.

Most people on any kind of influential position are way above 50, and in many cases above 60; quite a few people in the government are way past the retirement age, too. But people no longer allowed to run a business are apparently allowed to run whole countries.

Young people resent the system because in all material ways, it really does disempower them and keep them small and subservient.

Quite true.

As a future educator, I see the current school system as the root of today's children's problems, both what they perceive as such and what the society perceives as the "real" problems.
And what I see is that the legal age of 18 has led to the widespread perception of everone under that age as not only immature, but a moron, and their opinions are readily disregarded.
The education system does not help that situation at all; people are trained to become drones, and medicrity abounds. No wonder, since it is enticed quite strongly.
Then again, what is to be expected, now that working in education primarily means that you couldn't get a real job. I know way too many excellent teachers who have gone on to better paid and at the same time less stressful jobs (not to mention less risky; in a post-war society, both the parents and the children have ready access to weapons).

The older generation appreciate it because, for them, it does the opposite. For them, it is an expression of and mechanism for empowerment.

I could never understand the people who would steal from their own children.

That's why young people don't care about the systems that dominate our world, and why old people lend their support to increasingly totalitarian methods of controlling people.

They're not going to let this guy grow into anything that might threaten them. They might use education to specialize and stunt his development until he's utterly dependent on them, then use him as a sort of pet/tool once he has no means by which to make use of any freedom, or they might just stunt and destroy him with confinement.

Has anyone noticed that, while anyone under 18 is not likely to be granted the rights granted to an adult, they are likely to be prosecuted as adults for certain offences?

Even in the ancient times, people would say that the decadent youth was going to be the bane of the society.
Nowadays, it is the decadent youth of the previous age that is going to ruin everything.

Re:wtf

[operagost]

Summary: Don't trust anyone over 30.

Re:wtf

[Torvaun]

Really, because I was under the impression that the driver really has very little control over his route? Yes, the kid fails, but if he could cause this much trouble with simple mischief, consider how much trouble someone who was out to cause trouble could create.

Re:wtf

[fbjon]

True, the driver is unlikely to have any particular choice in which way he should go according to his route, but to get this information to automatically turn the switch would mean some pretty heavy automation of all the trams. Automation which is likely to fail horribly. Since the driver is required anyway, it's simpler to have him know his route and direct the tram in the right direction.

Re:wtf

[LWATCDR]

And just how many years did this work just fine? Yes they do need to make it more secure but that doesn't mean the kid isn't just as guilty.
Your argument is like saying a women in a short skirt is just asking to be raped.
Or that if the lock is easy to pick it isn't breaking and entering.
Or it isn't my fault that I took that money they shouldn't have left it out.
Or it isn't my fault I was speeding. They shouldn't make cars that can over 70.
Just because something is possible doesn't mean you should do it. That is an important lesson that way to many people seem to miss out on.
Do you want to trade your freedom for security? Do you want the government to make it impossible for you to break any law?

Re:wtf

[Torvaun]

If this were happening, then we shouldn't have had four trams derailed, unless this kid was actively waiting for the very last moment to switch.

Re:wtf

[Torvaun]

Oh, I fully agree that the kid is guilty. I'm just saying that if someone picking an easy to pick lock could potentially cause the deaths of random commuters, someone should have said "Maybe we want a better lock on this..."

Re:wtf

[fbjon]

How I see the story: The driver controls how the switch should be set, right? Apparently this happens by infrared, which means line of sight to the receiver. The receiver could be placed anywhere, but preferably somewhere near the junction. As the tram approaches, the drivers signal the switch to make sure it's in the correct position before the tram arrives. The kid then changes it to whatever he wants with his own signal, causing mayhem.

Re:wtf

[mea37]

To be fair, we don't have enough information about how the project to build this system progressed to know exactly how to divide up blame. For example, I'm only guessing that the engineering team just didn't give a thought to securing the switch controls against this type of thing, and you're only guessing that they did.

On the other hand, I cannot support the attitude of "I just built what I was told to build" in a case like this. Just because the engineer may have raised concerns and been shot down, does not make it ethically ok to build something grossly dangerous. Depending on the project, there are matters of degree here; but then this is a pretty serious case of poor design with potentially disasterous consequences.

Suppose this had been figured out by someone with the intent to cause damage, rather than by a kid who thought he was being funny?

Re:wtf

[TFGeditor]

Since there are no "Asshole," "Dimwit," or "Short-sighted" mod options, someone please mod the parent "Troll."

Re:wtf

[ShieldW0lf]

They're not stealing from their children, really. They didn't have children; that's why there was a population bust.

This is the source of all the so-called wealth that these structures purport to create. They didn't create wealth, they cashed in the chips on their civilization. They said, "Lets just put a stop to the whole thing, stop having babies and making more people, and just party like it's 1999". They created a myth about overpopulation to give it all a tint of morality and decided to just pursue hedonism.

Those of us who are here, we are the product of the few boomers who actually cared about humanity enough to try to make more humans in a world that would much rather they just get to work making leisure products with all that spare time.

As it stands, you can divide the population into demographics by generation, and the oldest generation outnumbers the two younger ones. And at this point, they are generally united, and their interests run the show.

I'd say, politically, the best tactic to move forward is to recognize that the richest boomers are the ones who didn't have kids, while the ones who did are the poorer ones. This being the case, the rich boomers are going to be poised to use economics to compel us young people to care for them before caring for our own parents, in a world where there aren't enough young able bodied people to care for everyone.

If everyone was to recognize and acknowledge this, it might be possible to split the boomers, restructure the rules and disenfranchise the ones who didn't have children and therefore have no one motivated to speak for them out of love, but purely through leverage.

At the end of the day, we don't have the able bodied population to take care of our elderly in anything approaching the fashion they were promised. We'll be lucky if we can take care of ourselves.

Re:wtf

[LWATCDR]

Yes once they figure out the lock was picked. The system they actually used seems very interesting. My guess is that the people running the trams could control the switches with the IR controllers. Since they move slow the drivers should have no trouble switching tracks or stopping just like a bus driver. So you get the benifts of a train but the flexibility of a bus.
What they didn't expect was for somebody to trespass into the stations and get the single codes.
BTW the kid got really lucky. Nobody died and hopefully no one got seriously hurt.

Re:wtf

[toddestan]

Charge who? These systems are probably decades old, and the engineers who designed them long retired and likely have even passed away. Back when they were designed, I'm sure they were fairly secure through security through obscurity (few people would know how to hack it, the equipment would have been expensive, thus if you wanted to mess with the trams you probably wouldn't try to hack the switches). Furthermore, back when it was designed it's not like you could just throw a cheap IC in the design to get something like rolling codes anyway.

Re:wtf

[Viol8]

I wish I could mod you troll you moron. Perhaps you're some angst ridden teen tosser who'd like to derail a tram too...

New terrorist plot for TV

[Sciros]

I have $20 that says at least one TV crime-drama-whatever show will have a plot where a bad guy tries to plot some train crash by messing with a TV remote, or better yet, video game controller.

This kid does deserve to get in trouble, though, big-time. You don't go around derailing trams, that's not cool.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[Spudtrooper]

Video games don't make trains crash, they just make kids fat!

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[ashridah]

Didn't you see the Italian Job or Die Hard 4?

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[dgatwood]

This kid does deserve to get in trouble, though, big-time. You don't go around derailing trams, that's not cool.

I'm surprised nobody has asked the obvious question. Switches normally switch between two tracks. How does switching a train to a different track cause it to derail? Collide, sure, but derail? Sounds like a design problem to me... or a whole lot of design problems if it is possible for it to switch when a train is in the middle of the switch, as I suspect occurred. There should be safety interlocks to prevent switching from even being possible as long as a weight sensor at the switch is depressed.

It strikes me that this kid not only found a security flaw in the system, but also found at least one very serious safety flaw that could have occurred due to electronics glitches even if he hadn't done this. It could have ben a lot worse, particularly if those same switching systems are used for any high-speed trains....

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[cybereal]

For the sake of the GP's sanity, I hope not.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[anno1602]

Speculation: An alternative explanation would be that the two curves were of different diameter, and the driver intended to take the larger-diameter one, traveling at a speed too high for the sharper curve the tram ended up taking. Tram lines sometimes take pretty sharp turns.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[mi]

How does switching a train to a different track cause it to derail? Collide, sure, but derail?

First, the alternative track may not be "right" for the tram — old/decrepit, too curvy for the tram's usual speed, etc.

Second the driver(s) may have panicked and done something stupid because of the sudden change of direction...

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[greed]

It's all about the speed.

Generally, you can proceed straight through a switch at full speed, green-over-green on many signaling systems for "no worries".

But if the switch is thrown, you must travel at a much lower speed, depending on the track configuration, anything from a slow walk to a sprint is the kind of speeds we're talking about. Yellow-over-yellow, say.

Tram tracks often have very sharp bends in them, so you're in slow walk territory. Plus, if it's an old-fashioned trolley pole system like Toronto's, you are also at risk of having the pole come off the overhead wire. (There's an inertial reel with a rope on the end of the pole, so if it does come off the wire, it doesn't snap all the way up, and there's a handy rope the operator can use to plug the tram back in.)

Toronto's streetcars are required to "stop, then proceed" at all switches because of past collisions and derailments from switchgear failure. It used to be "slow, then proceed", but that wasn't enough to prevent crashes. And it still happens; there was a collision on the Spadina 510 line last year blamed on a switching error. (I _think_ what happened is that the switch operated while the car had one truck on either side, so the back end of the car tried to turn into the oncoming car's path. The operator would have seen the switch was correct when he started up, but it didn't remain correct.)

Even if all that happens is the tram loses power and stops suddenly, that's enough for injuries as standing passengers get thrown forward. Emergency braking when a car cuts off the tram can do the same thing.

Another possibility is abandoned lines where the switches are still operational. It would be a good idea to disable the remote actuators on those ones, but hey, if they're using consumer-type IR remotes already....

I suppose I could always read the article. Nah....

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[wwwojtek]

According to a Polish newspaper (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80273,4829593.html) he was on the tram and indeed switched it in the middle

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[joebok]

Have you never had a train set? A switch will have one pair of rails on one side, and two pairs of rails on the other. If you are coming to the switch from the side with one pair, you won't get derailed - you'll just go to one or the other output tracks. But if you are on the other side of the switch it has to be set right to get your train back to the single pair side. If the switch is set to route traffic from the other side rail then you would derail if you didn't stop.

I'm sure there are visual indicators if you are heading into a situation where the track ahead isn't switched correctly (my train set had red and green lights), but it is easy to see how there could have been derailments if somebody was running amok with the switches.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[Oktober Sunset]

If enough fat kids sat on one side of the tram, it might derail.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[Oldstench]

Maybe the track that the train was originally on only connects to the other track when the switch is set one way. It may have simply run out of track. Then WTF do I know? I only pretend to drive choo-choos when playing 18xx.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[DerekLyons]

I'm surprised nobody has asked the obvious question. Switches normally switch between two tracks. How does switching a train to a different track cause it to derail? Collide, sure, but derail?

Let's posit a scenario - the train is going in a straight line at speed, then suddenly... isn't. (I.E. it goes through the switch.) What do you think is going to happen?
 
Answer: It's going to derail. That's why there are speed limits going through switches.
 
It never occurred to me that folks might not know something so elementary as "if you suddenly and unexpectedly turn something that was going in a straight line, Bad Thing Happen".

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Speculation: An alternative explanation would be that the two curves were of different diameter, and the driver intended to take the larger-diameter one, traveling at a speed too high for the sharper curve the tram ended up taking. Tram lines sometimes take pretty sharp turns.

That would explain the case of a train entering the base of the Y and exiting the top. The far more likely case is that the train entered the top of the Y and the switching rail was on the other leg. The inner rail would be pointed at the other leg. Trains don't run well on a giant gap in the rail.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[IronChef]

How does switching a train to a different track cause it to derail? Collide, sure, but derail?

Perhaps you need to reduce speed for the switch and the driver was unaware of his impending doom.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[imsabbel]

Switch while tram crosses= front goes right, back goes left...

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[greyhueofdoubt]

Train tracks are more complicated than you might think. For starters, curves, switches, tunnels, cities etc all have their own speed limit. A switch that would be almost unnoticeable at 10 mph might derail a train going 50 mph. The system (in the U.S. the system is computerized and run from a central office) plans for the different speeds and makes everything work smoothly. The conductor should probably apply emergency brakes in this type of situation, and that perhaps could have been what caused the derailment.

-b

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[skolima]

Simple. Switch it when some part of the tram is already past the switch. Boom. Or as was the case with a serious (about 20 people killed) tram accident in Poznan, Poland about 10 years ago - change switch to turn when the driver expects it to go forward and is driving at - or above - the speed limit. Boom again. The engineers fucked up. Agreed. The kid is smart. Agreed. But he is also a sociopath and should definitely take punishment for what he did.

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[jsiren]

If it really is possible to throw a switch under a tram, then yes, it is a design flaw.

It's relatively easy to disable the switch mechanism while a vehicle is close to the points (the movable part). Then again, each track switch has two paths through it: straight through, which can be taken at a high speed, and diverging, which must be taken at a reduced speed to avoid derailment. At a street corner there may be an arrangement where the track turns left and right, the right turn being straight through the switch, and the left turn being the diverging track. In this case the tram may turn right at a higher speed than left. A derailment could have occurred if the tram driver had prepared to go straight (right), but the kid had thrown the switch in front of the tram, causing it to take the diverging track way too fast.

Please note that I don't know about the specifics of the network or the incidents, only speaking of general knowledge.

FWIW, many tram networks have switch actuators operated by under-car electromagnets or catenary contacts; these should be harder to hack...

Re:New terrorist plot for TV

[HeadlessNotAHorseman]

That's interesting...I don't know how it works for trains, but in Melbourne, Australia we also have a pretty big tram network. The trams here will not derail in that situation - the action of the trams wheels going through the switch is enough to make the switch change. There are two other ways that switches can be changed - some automatic process that I'm not familiar with, or a tram driver can climb out and use a special metal rod as a key to manually change the switch. Because you cannot derail the trams by changing the switches, the worst that you could do would be to put the tram off-course. I'm guessing that train switches are much more heavy duty and would not respond in the same manner.

Law enforcement differences

[KaiserSoze]

Good thing he wasn't in the United States, where he'd be charged with terrorism, waterboarded, sodomized with a broom handle and thrown in Guantanamo Bay forever. The Department of Homeland Security would then increase the Train Flight Security Awareness Threat to Indigo, and the attorney general would trumpet the great work that the US Government is doing to prevent further Terrorist Train Derailments.

Re:Law enforcement differences

[Adambomb]

Just a reminder we are currently at threat level Moving Pictures.

Up from Blackwatch Plaid.

Re:Law enforcement differences

[Itninja]

..with a broom handle and thrown in Guantanamo Bay forever.

Nah, I doubt that would have happened - this was an white kid. But if he'd been, um, not white....o yeah, they would have totally gone Abu Ghraib on him.

Re:Law enforcement differences

[edwardpickman]

Actually with minors they spray them with a super soaker and hand them over to Catholic priests. The threat alone usually does the trick.

Re:Law enforcement differences

[halcyon1234]

"But whats to stop a terrorist from taking a train and, Ja forbid, running it into the White House?" (2:50)

Re:Law enforcement differences

[Arkus]

I got quite the laugh out of your post, if I had any mod points right now you would have got one!

Re:Law enforcement differences

[funkboy]

Well, in their infinite wisdom our elected officials eliminated most of our public transportation in the '60s (at the behest of lobbyists of the auto industry), so we don't have to worry about such things happening in the US any more...

Special security training?

[Optic7]

Does it really take special security training for engineers to realize that controlling train junctions with TV remote controls (or close enough) might be a bad idea? Where's the whatcouldpossiblygowrong tag when you need it?

Re:Special security training?

[smooth wombat]

They're engineers, what do you expect? They designed a system that made it easy to change the junctions without someone having to physically throw a switch to change the tracks. More than likely, no one, including the people who provide the specifications for this device, thought about security. The idea was to make the job of switching tracks easier.

Which succeeded.

Re:Special security training?

[Arkus]

More than likely they were looking to make it work at the lowest cost, but who knows how long ago that system was deisigned.
Microsoft just started to get a clue about security in the past couple years and they've been writing software for two decades!

Re:Special security training?

[starfishsystems]

Does it really take special security training

It's hard to see how anyone with a brain could have not considered the implication of a stray signal setting off the switch actuator, potentially causing loss of life.

I own an area of land which I've thought, somewhat idly, would suit an aerial tramway for moving building materials onto the site. The first thing that crossed my mind was not was how to engineer the rigging. That's textbook stuff. No, my first concern was whether it would be possible to build a remote control that would fail safe.

Re:Special security training?

[kalirion]

Exactly. Previously, anybody could throw the switch. Now, anybody can use a remote. Not much difference, really.

Re:Special security training?

[russotto]

This wasn't a stray signal. Even TV remotes are engineered to prevent stray signals from working. The system wasn't engineered to prevent generation of malicious signals, probably because that wasn't in the spec.

Re:Special security training?

[starfishsystems]

I think your criteria for "stray" are less inclusive than mine.

Perhaps I should have said "not authenticated", though to me these are computationally equivalent. That is, there is no need for a system to distinguish between malicious data and just plain random data. It should reject both.

Re:Special security training?

[khobba]

As a Polish engineering student I feel strong urge to rotfl after reading this post...wait a minute...
...
...Done.

"good engineering practices" from the rest of the world??? Please mind, that good engineering practices usually develop when other parts of a good design and construction are limited or unavailable (e.g. money, materials, pre-made designs), so the engineers really have to think everything over to avoid excessive material loss. All of my professors say that when Poland was firmly behind the Iron Curtain engineers have been much better (aaah, those good old days...).
When someone was constructing, let's say, microwave transceiver, he could not use ready ICs from West Germany and newly designed MCX connectors from France or anywhere else due to embargo on modern technology and had to find his own way. That's why Polish electronic engineers were sometimes praised for their skills: if you've had access only to uA741 you've just had to be a good engineer to make anything of it (I mean designing any device using only operation amplifiers). Of course, in fact, they've had access to many kinds of electronic elements, not just opamps ;-) .
Some technologies, like, for example, production of HgCdTe detectors with epitaxial growth were developed in Poland (in 1980's) and became very popular across the world thanks to their low cost, because they were designed by people with constant lack of funds but with many ideas.
IMO, the poorer the country, the smarter the engineers and scientists. Poland has nothing to export but minds :-)

Perhaps security was a guard with a gun. - oh man, I won't even comment this...

after the collapse of the Soviet Union, there may not have been any money or drive to update the system. - I don't know how much of geography and history have you been taught where you live (if you're from US you may not even know the difference between Italy and France ;-) ), but it was Soviet Union that used to be draining goods and money from their satellite countries not the other way. Just think about it - what is the purpose of having a satellite country if you have to pump money to them not to your people?

P.S. Sorry for my English, I hope that you won't try to find corellation between my language skills and Polish engineers' "good engineering" capability.

And one other thing: weren't the early remote car alarm systems (from the same time that Lodz trams' automatic switching system was designed) easily hackable too?

Telegraph article

[ddrichardson]

Here is the article in the Telegraph.

I particularly enjoyed the phrase:

The incident is the latest in which "hackers" - many of them young computer experts - have broken into computer systems.

As they then list two incedents since 1999 and the Boeing 787 concern.

Wee!

[Sir_Eptishous]

Forget the tv remote.
Imagine what chaos aspiring electronics buffs will be able to create with Wii controllers!

Re:Wee!

[Roger W Moore]

Imagine what chaos aspiring electronics buffs will be able to create with Wii controllers!

Fortunately more useful things like an interactive whiteboard for $40. The only problem I've had is trying to get my hand on a Wii Remote to try it out but the idea is brilliant...at least if you are a professor: I can teach them physics at the same time as using physics to teach!

Re:Wee!

[TheBlunderbuss]

The Wii controllers wouldn't do anything IR-receiving systems, like one the article mentions.
Wiimotes aren't IR transmitters. They receive IR from the single "sensor bar", which is an array of IR LEDs. This makes it easier to get pointer data from multiple Wiimotes, rather than having a single receiver be flooded with IR.
So, just like how the TV shoots NES Zapper light gun, the sensor bar shoots the Wiimotes.

I have a suggestion.

[B3ryllium]

Maybe he should play more video games?

Re:I have a suggestion.

[Critical Facilities]

This might be what gave him the idea in the first place.

Re:I have a suggestion.

[B3ryllium]

Hahah, nice :)

Better that than that silly Garfield movie, at least.

Re:I have a suggestion.

[Dr. Cody]

Where is Jack Thompson when you need him?

Oh yeah, molesting little boys.

Good thing this isn't the US

[matt4077]

In some law systems, he'd probably be labeled a terrorist, charged with attempted murder (if he even gets a criminal trial) and spend 10 years in jail. Let's hope Poland is more civilized, I'd guess humiliation from the trial plus quite a lot of hours of community service will frighten him enough to never cross the line again. Then again, his parents will probably be ruined as they'll have to pay the damages.

Needs a challenge

[Thelasko]

Sounds like this kid was not adequately challenged by his school. At least that's what the story leads me to believe. If I was the judge I would let him off on the condition that he goes to a school where his curiosity will be encouraged but given enough direction so he doesn't get into more trouble.

Re:Needs a challenge

[Oligonicella]

Yes, of course. Not being adequately challenged at school means it's ok to go and screw with people's safety. The son of a bitch was fourteen. If he knew enough to do what he did, he knew enough science to figure out the results.

Re:Needs a challenge

[westlake]

If I was the judge I would let him off on the condition that he goes to a school where his curiosity will be encouraged but given enough direction so he doesn't get into more trouble.

In the old days it was called a "reform school." School + Jail. With all the direction the Geek-In-Training could desire.

Re:Leave it to the Polish!

[Dmala]

Yeah, Poland is so backwards. In the US, we don't need teenagers to derail our trains.

Video

[Nutty_Irishman]

Local authorities released this video capturing the culprits in their crime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiAk5vqvn3A

Re:Video

[PMBjornerud]

I love it!

OK, I have to ask

[Critical Facilities]

on Tuesday when a driver attempting to steer his vehicle to the right was involuntarily taken to the left. As a result the rear wagon of the train jumped the rails and collided with another passing tram

IANATE (I Am Not A Tram Expert), but if it was on RAILS, how or why would you STEER it?

scary genius

[techpawn]

It's fun to hear about these kinds of events if no one got hurt. But, at th same time it's rather frightening the though of someone with an intellect like that with a lot of time on their hands and no productive outlet to use it.
Think what could be accomplished if people like this where given access to what they needed and had the same motivation when it came to curing cancer.

Re:scary genius

[Jerf]

But, at th same time it's rather frightening the though of someone with an intellect like that with a lot of time on their hands and no productive outlet to use it.

What evidence do you have that there was "no productive outlet to use it"? The kid had the time and the knowhow to do this, and you think this was somehow his only choice for expression?

I doubt that.

Why is it that...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that facility operators, be it trains, power plants, oil refineries, or anything have pathetic security, and when something does happen, they blame it totally on the perp who likely never had to confront even a single lock, much less a guard?

Makes me wonder if countries should have a special regulatory team whose job it is to attempt break ins on a regular basis to various areas, and levy fines to organizations failing compliance. Only problem is areas where people shoot to kill... telling a tiger team from a genuine trespasser/burglar/criminal before pulling the trigger.

Re:Why is it that...

[Kamokazi]

Only problem is areas where people shoot to kill... telling a tiger team from a genuine trespasser/burglar/criminal before pulling the trigger.
If the team is seriously concerned about being shot, I think it's safe to give that facility a stamp of approval without even attempting a break in.

Re:Why is it that...

[A Pancake]

Why is it that if someone leaves their home unlocked I can't just walk in and grab their goods and run without being prosecuted?

At what point in a civilized free society have we decided that a person should not be responsible for their actions just because someone hasn't specifically safe guarded against that action?

Re:Why is it that...

[BeanThere]

I don't think that was the point, nobody claimed the 'perps' shouldn't be punished (what are you mr strawman or just lack comprehension skills?) - the point was that there should also be some accountability for those who design terrible systems that anyone (e.g. terrorists or whatever) can easily take advantage of to cause harm. Seriously, this is an important point. Would you think it's OK for (say) the local nuclear power plant in your town to leave it's doors open to anyone (virtually or physically)?

Re:Why is it that...

[zsau]

Because most people in civilised societies realise that playing with trams is a bad idea that could cause death? I don't know how the remote control system of trams here in Melbourne work, but I do know if you have a long enough metal bar with the right height/width you could do the same as this guy did --- yet tmk it's never happened.

juvenile court...

[fred ugly]

"a special juvenile court of endangering public safety"

sounds about right...

Cityrunner

[Thelasko]

According to Wikipedia Lodz's; tram is called the Cityrunner by Bombardier. A picture of a tram is on wikimedia commons.

Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Palal]

In the US many places with newer traffic signal circuitry (at least on the west coast) have something called Signal Pre-Emption.

This allows emergency vehicles to by-pass traffic lights by turning them green. It uses an IR transponder on vehicles, and an IR receiver on lights. When a certain frequency (pulse) is sent out from the vehicle and picked up by the receiver, the light turns green.

Before you try to build a device to do that I want to say 2 things:
1. Devices are available on the 'black market', and
2. Every time this signal gets sent, it gets recorded in a log. There have been cases of people getting caught using these and the fines are hefty.


The same system is used, called "Signal Priority" can be used by buses to hold the light green or trigger an early green in various circumstances. (Basically this involves sending out a frequency that's different from Emergency vehicles.

I bet that Lodz uses a similar technology for its trams, but maybe they thought nobody could figure it out, so they simply went with security via obscurity (or whatever the term for it is).

Czech Republic has a single system (as in same system type, not same transponders) in the entire country for its trams and trolley buses and uses something similar to your car key remote.

If anyone manages to figure out how the signal pre-emption works, please post details online :).

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Daniel_Staal]

Some places have a more inteligent system: The signal turns the light Red (in all directions), and the emergency vechicles just go through the red lights.

Works just as well, and less suceptable to hacks. (Not impossible of course, but less chance of people doing it for their own benifit.)

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Lao-Tzu]

The downside to that approach is that emergency vehicles encounter cars stopped at a red light at every intersection. Where I live, drivers panic when an emergency vehicle approaches, move their car six inches towards the side of the road, and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[garett_spencley]

This allows emergency vehicles to by-pass traffic lights by turning them green. It uses an IR transponder on vehicles, and an IR receiver on lights. When a certain frequency (pulse) is sent out from the vehicle and picked up by the receiver, the light turns green.

Here's something a little funny about those systems.

My father-in-law is an ex-firefighter (just retired at the end of '07) who drove the truck for a couple of years before being promoted to Captain. He absolutely despises the system due to it's unreliability and shortly after it was introduced in our city he stopped even trying to use it all together.

I didn't even know that they existed until a discussion popped up at the dinner table one night and I couldn't help but wonder what kind of potential for abuse there is. Even more ironic that the emergency services themselves don't even use them (well, I can only speak for my father-in-law but from the sounds of it they're hated - at least the implementation in my city).

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[SidIncognito]

Except that depending on traffic and circumstances, the emergency vehicle might then get stuck behind a bunch of cars at the red light, and it would take a few seconds at the very least (and probably a cascade of honking) before the driver at the head realizes what's going on and makes way.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Evil Adrian]

Those people that panic and don't move promptly should have their licenses revoked.

This whole thread is pissing me off. "He was young and didn't know what he was doing..." BS. If the kid is smart enough to hack into a system, he's easily smart enough to know how much a train weighs and what damage a train derailment will cause. Send this kid to jail!

Secondly, I hate when people excuse bad driving as normal. It's not acceptable. If you don't clear the intersection when emergency vehicles are coming, you shouldn't be driving, period. If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked. If you can't PARK YOUR CAR without extreme effort, license REVOKED! If you took licenses away from all the people that shouldn't have them for safety reasons, there would be 50% fewer people on the road, AT LEAST.

I hate people.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Daniel_Staal]

True, though the systems I've seen that operated this way had another light (flashing strobe, all directions) to indicate that an emergency vechicle was coming.

No system is perfect, of course. I like the red-all-ways because it is closest to what you want: Nobody move but the emergency vechiles, everyone else get out of the way.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[wings]

Except that depending on traffic and circumstances, the emergency vehicle might then get stuck behind a bunch of cars at the red light, and it would take a few seconds at the very least (and probably a cascade of honking) before the driver at the head realizes what's going on and makes way.

I live in the Dallas area and this is exactly what I see happen at intersections where the emergency vehicles cannot force the light green in their direction of travel. The emergency vehicles can sit at the back of a pack of cars at the red light and honk their horn all they want, the drivers at the head of the pack won't move until the light changes.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Pollardito]

2. Every time this signal gets sent, it gets recorded in a log. There have been cases of people getting caught using these and the fines are hefty. there are also cases of people being caught and the fines were not hefty

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[johndierks]

Keeping traffic flowing actually helps emergency vehicles get through more quickly as cars don't get backed up can move out of the way.

http://www.pwmag.com/industry-news.asp?sectionID=774&articleID=445482

The Opticom GPS initiates an all-red phase and a green light in the direction of travel only at the request of the vehicle. The green light is initiated far enough in advance to clear out traffic in front of the emergency vehicle. As a result, heavily congested intersections without direct lines of sight are cleared to allow for safer and faster responses by emergency vehicles.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[RemyBR]

Yes, but turning all lights red wouldn't cause the traffic ahead of the emergency vehile to jam, possibly preventing it to even get to where the lights are?

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[jheath314]

Revoking so many licenses wouldn't reduce the number of people on the road; it would just result in more people taking the bus. Bonus!

Seriously, though, without knowing more details I doubt the kid had malicious intent. Sure, trains weigh a lot, but I myself am surprised that the train derailed. We're not talking about high-speed trains here, I would have assumed (as the kid might have) that the switching mechanism was designed with a gentle-enough curve to avoid derailment at speeds higher than procedure calls for.

A very basic concept in engineering design is "factor of safety". Take whatever parameter you expect a system will have to handle (speed, load, temperature, whatever) and multiply it by the FOS, and design your system to be able to handle that higher parameter. At the very minimum, the speed FOS for the switching mechanism should have been high enough to avoid derailment should someone make a mistake and approach the switch without reducing speed. The engineers who designed this switch were grossly incompetent, and not just for failing to design security into the controls.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[webrunner]

Here, (southern Ont) it seems to be tied to the siren, and seems to basically just to be to disable the red light camera. A lot of the time I'll see a police car come up to a red light, put on their siren for just long enough to get through, and then turn it off again.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[cp.tar]

The downside to that approach is that emergency vehicles encounter cars stopped at a red light at every intersection. Where I live, drivers panic when an emergency vehicle approaches, move their car six inches towards the side of the road, and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway.

I've heard emergency drivers say: "If you don't know what to do and where to go when you see/hear an emergency vehicle, simply stop. It's much easier to manage your way around a halted vehicle than around one whose driver is panicking."

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Crackmonkeyjr]

Turning the lights red isn't quite as useful, as it leaves open the possibility that the emergency vehicle will get stuck behind the vehicles at the red light.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[mzs]

The signals around here used strobe lights. Now they also install a camera on the light to see who is using it. I am sure it is only a matter of time that the cameras get used to send tickets to those who run reds.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Oldstench]

I hate people. Well I love you.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[yet another coward]

Where there is no median, have the emergency vehicle drive on the wrong side of the road. Where there is a median, have the light in that direction turn green and all the rest turn red.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[jonbrewer]

Lodz has had electric trams since 1898 - and while it's not likely any of the original track or switches are in use, the system is not new. Turning at too rapid a rate will cause derailment. I've seen a fair number of older generation trams derailed on similar Polish systems, especially around the old town of Krakow. Somehow I doubt that Lodz have a spanking new fleet of low-floor trams that have required system-wide track upgrades to run. I imagine the trams that derailed were built in the 1960s.

As for the engineers being "grossly incompetent", I really don't think so. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the system hacked was decades old, designed by folks who had no reason to think that anyone would ever have the means or desire to circumvent the system.

(FYI those 1960s electric trains are far better transport than any diesel bus I've ever been on, and the new low-floor trams are like something out of a sci-fi movie!)

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Mister Whirly]

That is the law (at least in the USA) - emergency vehicles can't run a red light unless their lights are on.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[ptbarnett]

I live in the Dallas area and this is exactly what I see happen at intersections where the emergency vehicles cannot force the light green in their direction of travel. The emergency vehicles can sit at the back of a pack of cars at the red light and honk their horn all they want, the drivers at the head of the pack won't move until the light changes.

I recently heard sirens and could see an approaching fire truck in my rear view mirror. I was waiting at a red light, but didn't dare pull into the intersection as long as it was green in the other direction -- the other traffic hadn't stopped.

Finally, the fire truck behind me got close enough to the intersection to turn the light green. I started to move out, and nearly drove into the path of another fire truck approaching from my left. I couldn't see the truck on the left due to the large truck on my left blocking my view in that direction.

It's an unusual situation for emergency vehicles to be converging on an intersection from two directions (actually three, as I subsequently encountered another firetruck going opposite my direction), but the problem is not unique. It's difficult to drive through an intersection against a red light without the risk of being broad-sided. And even with the best of intentions, you would be deemed at fault if an accident occurred.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[shackma2]

Your apparent passion for assisting emergency vehicles in getting to their destionation as quickly as possible suggests that you sir, do not hate people.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[ShieldW0lf]

Secondly, I hate when people excuse bad driving as normal. It's not acceptable. If you don't clear the intersection when emergency vehicles are coming, you shouldn't be driving, period. If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked. If you can't PARK YOUR CAR without extreme effort, license REVOKED! If you took licenses away from all the people that shouldn't have them for safety reasons, there would be 50% fewer people on the road, AT LEAST.

So, if more than 50% of the people are kept off the road because you don't like how they drive, perhaps they should round YOU up, get rid of YOU, and drive as they see fit without interference from micromanaging busy bodies who think we're obligated to operate in a way that you can predict and write down?

You know, there have been numerous suppressed studies demonstrating that road rules and signs actually make driving less safe because they give a false sense of security. I don't have a link at my fingertips, but there have been several of them done. The safest way to structure roads is to remove all signs and controls, and force people to remain interactive with the environment rather than being hypnotized into routine. The reason the highly structured and regulated road systems continue is because they are an industry with an interest in self-preservation, and a cash cow for government, not because they are a good way to do things.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Bent Mind]

The downside to that approach is that emergency vehicles encounter cars stopped at a red light at every intersection. Where I live, drivers panic when an emergency vehicle approaches, move their car six inches towards the side of the road, and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway.

Where I live, you see a red light, you stop. The intersection clears itself because everyone is stopped. The emergency vehicle can easily get through the intersection by going around the stopped vehicles, into the oncoming lane, through the intersection, and back into the proper lane. If you are not at an intersection, move off the road.

Running a red light is only going to cause more accidents and more delays for the emergency vehicle.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[sn00ker]

The downside to that approach is that emergency vehicles encounter cars stopped at a red light at every intersection. Where I live, drivers panic when an emergency vehicle approaches, move their car six inches towards the side of the road, and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway.

I've heard emergency drivers say: "If you don't know what to do and where to go when you see/hear an emergency vehicle, simply stop. It's much easier to manage your way around a halted vehicle than around one whose driver is panicking."

I definitely agree with the "stop" rule. Unless the only way they can get around you without having to cross a traffic island is for you to move your car, just stay the hell still!
I'm not a trained emergency response driver, but when I was in the Fire Service here I rode as front-seat passenger more than a few times in vehicles responding as urgent traffic. Emergency drivers know the dimensions of their vehicle, and they know its maneuvering limitations. They can deal better with your car being a stationary obstacle than a moving one, especially since they cannot read the minds of other drivers.

The other thing to consider is that most jurisdictions will not give a waiver of liability to a driver who goes through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle through. If you're in a crash, you ran a red light. You might be able to escape prosecution for a minor crash, but your insurance company is still going to hold you liable.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[cstdenis]

Unless their is a physical divider the emergency vehicle can just drive on the other side of the road. That seems to be how they usually do it here.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[wiredlogic]

Getting stuck is only really a problem on boulevards or roads with other types of barriers between opposing traffic directions. With no obstructions, an emergency vehicle can go around the backed up cars by driving on the wrong side of the road through the intersection.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Cervantes]

Those people that panic and don't move promptly should have their licenses revoked.

This whole thread is pissing me off. "He was young and didn't know what he was doing..." BS. If the kid is smart enough to hack into a system, he's easily smart enough to know how much a train weighs and what damage a train derailment will cause. Send this kid to jail!

Secondly, I hate when people excuse bad driving as normal. It's not acceptable. If you don't clear the intersection when emergency vehicles are coming, you shouldn't be driving, period. If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked. If you can't PARK YOUR CAR without extreme effort, license REVOKED! If you took licenses away from all the people that shouldn't have them for safety reasons, there would be 50% fewer people on the road, AT LEAST.

I hate people. Those that panic == revoked license. Agreed. If you can't handle a simple thing like an oncoming emergency vehicle, piss off.
Send the kid to jail? Ya, he's a smart kid, but smart =/= worldly. It's unlikely, even with a train set at home and a solid electrics knowledge, that he'd know certain minutia, such as "Trains have adjustable suspension so they can lean into their turns". Lean the train the wrong way in it's turn, and it can tip over. If you don't know that, then you're just working on a cool toy that will make the trains go where they're not supposed to, no harm done.
Revoke licenses of people who drive 5mph under the limit? It's called a LIMIT and not a TARGET for a reason. It's the FASTEST you're supposed to go.
Now, people who drive 20mph under the limit, I'll agree with that. When you're going unreasonably slow, you're a danger to everyone else. But otherwise, it's perfectly reasonable to drive at the speed you feel comfortable.

Other than those points, good angry rant. You get +1 to your Blood Pressure score.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[khobba]

Just to clarify: according to the MPK in Lodz (City Transport Company) oldest trams currently in service are 805Na's from latter 1970's. And yes, as far, as I recognize the wrecks, they're the same model.

I know nearly nothing about tram systems and their design, but AFAIR, 15 years ago all of switches, I have seen in Poland, were operated manually with something like a long, steel (or iron) rod. So, the automatic switching systems have to be fairly new or, at least, from fairly new generation.

The system in Lodz is IR-based.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Keeping traffic flowing actually helps emergency vehicles get through more quickly as cars don't get backed up can move out of the way. Funny you should mention that. Just yesterday I was driving to work when an ambulance appeared behind me. I pulled over, but the guy in front of me just kept going. They got to an intersection and the ambulance nearly missed its turn because the guy was right along side of it. If he had been stopped....

There isn't a 100% satisfactory solution. I'm comfortable, however, with the opinion that stopped traffic is better than moving traffic for emergency vehicles. Part of the reason for that is you're supposed to stop and pull over.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[ScrewMaster]

Where I live, they go green in the direction of the emergency vehicle's travel. In fact, on one of our major roads there are lights every few blocks, with police cams on them. A few nights ago I saw an ambulance coming up from behind and pulled over onto the shoulder: I saw the lights go green ahead all in a row, and I watched the white monitor lights above the police cameras go on in sequence as the ambulance went through. Kinda cool to watch, actually.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[phreakhead]

Wow. Good thing the terrorists aren't as smart as this 14-year-old.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

I agree with you regarding drivers, but what makes you think this kid knew that diverting a train to a different track would cause a derailment? I can imagine the kid simply thinking the train would go a different direction than expected.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[David_W]

...and don't realize they should go through a red light to clear the roadway

Can you back that up with an official source? As I understood it, regular traffic is NEVER to go through a red light (excusing the right turn exception and such). Only emergency vehicles are supposed to do that. In the one instance I recall where the intersection was blocked, the ambulance went for the right turn lane (since they could get out of the way), then pulled straight through the clear intersection from there.

Granted this is anecdotal, but I remember many years ago one of those emergency-type shows (like "Rescue 911" or the like) they addressed this question, and that was what they said on there. Of course a TV show does not the law make, so I'm genuinely interested to see this proven wrong if it is.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[El Gruga]

Actually we, the people, hate YOU, Adrian. Leave the kid alone. He did what all smart kids do, he got bored and explored. No-one was killed and now they can fix the frickin crappy system. Hire the kid, I say.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[evilviper]

Some places have a more inteligent system: The signal turns the light Red (in all directions), and the emergency vechicles just go through the red lights.

That might be preferable at intersections with very light traffic, but nowhere else. At many intersections around here that would just ensure gridlock the emergency vehicles can't penetrate. Making the light green in the appropriate direction gives stopped vehicles a sign they should move, and gives them a few seconds chance to get out of the way.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[dargaud]

You know, there have been numerous suppressed studies demonstrating that road rules and signs actually make driving less safe because they give a false sense of security. I've read such a study and I find it highly suspect. Case in point, I drive often in 3 different countries. One of those doesn't put arrows to indicate steep curves on mountain roads. When driving at night (and even during the day) I regularly get surprised when getting into curves that weren't readily apparent and have to slam the brakes, even at low speed. I fail to see how that's an improvement in respect to seeing a number of arrows that tell you in advance what the safe speed will be. And it saves time too.

Go drive in a third world country and then we'll talk about signs and road safety.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[smorken]

Have you ever considered that people are slowing down because of angry, jerk drivers like yourself are making them feel unsafe by tailgating etc? I certainly make a point of slowing down at least 10Kph when someone is really tailgating me, I think it's pretty funny (for me at least) to do this actually.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[dangitman]

If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked.

Uhhh, what? Why?

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[BradleyUffner]

Send the kid to jail? Ya, he's a smart kid, but smart =/= worldly. It's unlikely, even with a train set at home and a solid electrics knowledge, that he'd know certain minutia, such as "Trains have adjustable suspension so they can lean into their turns". Lean the train the wrong way in it's turn, and it can tip over. If you don't know that, then you're just working on a cool toy that will make the trains go where they're not supposed to, no harm done.

OK, I'll give you that the 1st time, but how do you explain the fact that he did it 4 times? How can you say he didn't know what would happen after the 1st time? By the 4th time he knew damn well he was causing dammage and hurting people.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[ivan256]

"If you don't know what to do" is the key point.

You should know what to do. And after you stop because you didn't know what to do, you should head straight home/to your local library/to your local traffic school and learn what to do.

You didn't hear that driver saying that simply stopping is the best thing to do. You said it yourself. It's the best thing to do when you don't know what to do. Ideally we'd have as few of those people on the road as possible, and licensing requirements to ensure that.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Lao-Tzu]

I'm sure the law is somewhat different everywhere. Where I live, in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, the local police department says:

        What to do if you are approached from any direction by an emergency vehicle with its siren on:

        [ ... ]

        * At a red light, drivers should slowly and cautiously pull into the intersection in the direction of traffic.

Source: http://www.calgarypolice.ca/sections/traffic/room_to_work.html

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[complete loony]

The system around here AFAIK gives the vehicles (well probably the depo they come from) control over a couple of short routes out of their base. As soon as the call comes in, the whole route turns green allowing all traffic to flush through before they get there. Annoying if you're trying to cross, but it works fairly well.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[dotancohen]

In Israel, the law says that you do NOT go through a red light to let an emergency vehicle pass. So no matter what one reads on /., he should check his local laws and driving customs first.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[ShieldW0lf]

Ok, if you want to dismiss studies and get into anecdotal evidence, how bout this.

In Canada, they rely on signs and lights a lot, and there are four way stop signs everywhere.

So, I'm driving at night, I'm tired, and I get to a four way stop, and I stop, and I look both ways, and I drive out.

And some stupid bitch who I expect to stop for the sign T-bones my car.

She was overtired from working two jobs, and she didn't see the sign. I, of course, figured she was just one of those idiots who likes to slam her stops instead of slowing into them. In my mind, it's "Of course she's going to stop, there's a stop sign."

Now, you contrast that with Australia, where I've also done a lot of driving.

There are roundabouts everywhere you might find a four way stop. With a nice tree in the middle.

Now, you can't tune out what's going on and trust signs in such an environment. If you do, you'll crash your car after a single block.

The accident I had was caused by trusting signs, it could have easily been prevented by taking an attitude that roads should not have signs on them and should be designed accordingly, and there are nations in the world that have done this to various degrees.

I have to say, I think your example, being that it's about labeling hazards in the middle of nowhere, is completely irrelevant. We're talking about traffic control here, not driving up the edge of a mountainside in the dark on an empty road.

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[dargaud]

Having also driven in the US and Oz, I agree that 4-way stop signs are completely stupid, unless you _want_ to make drivers waste their time and gas and CO2 in urban areas (but still, at 3am, what's the point). And yes, one shouldn't 'trust' signs, but take them for what they are worth: an indication. There sure is a balance between information overload and lack of it. I don't speak German and was in Austria last week: I was left wondering at how they manage to have the time to read street signs that spawn 3 lines with 120 consonants and 2 vowels...

Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption

[Uzuri]

Actually, they shouldn't (assuming Milford, Ohio gets this right, and it jives with my own not-to-long-ago driver's ed.): http://milfordcommunityfd.org/safety%20programs/pull_right_for_lights.htm

"- NEVER enter an intersection when an emergency vehicle is approaching, pull over and stop BEFORE the intersection"

Which totally makes sense, because you have no idea where that vehicle is going.

I'm taking the troll -- on encryption, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yes and no. Just give a bit of serious thought to the issue... I'm at work, have to AC.

It sounds as though the system worked of infrared pulse encoding, and that is why he could use a modified television remote. Imagine you are the one designing this (probably in the 1970's or 1980's...) It is generally desirable to keep things simple to ensure they actually *work* -- that is, having a rolling code that may be out of sync while having a signalling train hurtle toward the junction at 80 mph is not desirable -- you want a simple system that the train can activate if needed.

Anybody who has worked with security (my job) knows that the more layers you add, the harder (network) testing is, and the more ways something can go VERY wrong for a legitimate user.

If the train couldn't switch the junction box because it didn't have the right "password," you would also criticize the engineers.

I defend the train design -- this should be treated as sabotage, and is more along the continuum of putting a penny on the tracks or mechanically interfering with a junction box, things that are also dangerous, illegal, and difficult to defend entirely against.

Re:I'm taking the troll -- on encryption, etc.

[JohnFluxx]

Hmm, that's a very good point. Thanks.

Re:I'm taking the troll -- on encryption, etc.

[peektwice]

Yeah, but there's no way this system shouldn't have had some protections in place. Where are the operator overrides? Why does the train override operator input? Why isn't the system hardwired? Why does the train have control over the junction, instead of an automated control system that is centrally housed? I understand the need for simplicity, but there has to be some balance. "Native wit" isn't going to cut it.

Re:I'm taking the troll -- on encryption, etc.

[gwjgwj]

It sounds as though the system worked of infrared pulse encoding, and that is why he could use a modified television remote. Imagine you are the one designing this (probably in the 1970's or 1980's...) It is generally desirable to keep things simple to ensure they actually *work* -- that is, having a rolling code that may be out of sync while having a signalling train hurtle toward the junction at 80 mph is not desirable -- you want a simple system that the train can activate if needed.
You can have a look at the crossing in question here. The trams are not going there at 80 mph, its rather about 5 mph. 12 people were hurt in this accident, and only one seriously (broken legs). BTW, the drivers are forbidden to enter the crossing simultaneously if the change of the switch position can cause the collision. Derailments caused by switch position changed under the running tram happen not so rarely.

A cry for help

[funk1337]

Poor child. Its just a cry for help! Don't you people understand? I mean, if I were the judge, I'd show leniency and send him to genius school where he could be challenged and nurture his growth! I'd give him flowers and positive reinforcement that he is a good person, and its OK! Everyone is a winner! Even if he killed someone, I'd say, "Well, then they should have never been on that tram anyway...my little snookem wookems. Now go run and play!" Fucking retards...

Re:A cry for help

[volpanic]

Yeah. This kid clearly has a problem understanding that consequences arise from his actions, and lacks the usual inhibition kids have when they consider tinkering with large moving objects. Patting him on the head and telling him he's a smartypants? That's a great idea. Just because someone locks their house with a twist-tie doesn't mean it's okay to go in and leave their stove on.

Re:OK, I have to answer

[circusboy]

train tracks have switches/points in order to take one route or another.

Engineers who built such...

[Anonymous Coward]

...heinously vulnerable systems are the ones who should get locked up in jail.

Re:Leave it to the Polish!

[TheGratefulNet]

Yeah, Poland is so backwards.

I know. in fact, they call RPN just "notation" !

Re:OK, I have to ask

[ThreeGigs]

Tram line 21 runs east to west.
Tram line 19 runs east to west on 21's tracks, then turns onto a north-south track heading south.

Driver of 19 sets his left-straight-right turn lever to broadcast "right".
Kid overrides with a left, lead car turns left.
Kid stops overriding, the junction again sees the signal on the tram to switch to turn right, and the second car goes right, causing a derailment.

In the US, most remote junction switches have a fail-safe that prevents the tracks from switching if there's a car over the junction, thus preventing driver error or malicious external elements from causing a derailment by making the train go in 2 directions at once. Apparently no such fail-safe is present on the systems in Lodz (pronounced 'woodj' in Polish).

Re:OK, I have to ask

[anno1602]

Trams switches are usually controlled via some kind of remote command from the tram, not centrally. So, the tram driver can - at least at switches - indeed steer the tram.

Re:The high cost of evolution.

[HTH NE1]

Yes security should have been implemented but why should one group have to defend themselves against another group? It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.

Is this not the rationale for penetration testing?

Re:The high cost of evolution.

[Nossie]

because padlocks and glass never prevented people from pressing buttons or pulling levers ... catching on yet?

same trick, different environment.

Re:OK, I have to answer

[MistrBlank]

And my guess is the conductor normally controls these switches with remote... not the kid outside of the train with a hacked TV remote.

Fire the safety department

[alextheseal]

The whole safety department of that tram line should be fired. A system hackable via a TV remote and unencyrpted signals subject to relay attacks should not be deployed ever. They should be sacked for having allowed it. Same goes for the "traffic light" systems here in the US with the same flaws. Course I didn't RTFA so maybe he even cracked the encryption. In which case only sack the designer of the encryption.

Re:Fire the safety department

[toddestan]

The whole safety department of that tram line should be fired. A system hackable via a TV remote and unencyrpted signals subject to relay attacks should not be deployed ever.

That's 2008 thinking. You might want to consider that the system was likely designed and deployed long before TV remotes were common and there was no practical way to encrypt the signal. Sure, the system probably should have been replaced in the last few years, but no one probably thought anything of it being that the system had worked fine for decades.

Re:Fire the safety department

[alextheseal]

Not really. I was in charge of designing and deploying SCADA system's in several chemical plants. I never considered having remote access into it from outside the plant via internet or modem. That was 1994. I go back to a plant a few years later. My replacement gives me a tour of upgrades and guess what he stuck in? A modem.

Re:Obligatory tasteless Polack joke.

[KiloByte]

"driver attempting to steer his vehicle to the right was involuntarily taken to the left."

Uh. Sounds about right... ;-) How exactly is this a troll? That's quite... natural.
Or are you going to tell me that an american, a ruskie or a german would reflexively act differently? For those who failed to get the parent's joke, there are some backwards islands where people drive on the wrong side of the road...

Re:Obligatory tasteless Polack joke.

[dorix]

Long ago, when sailing ships ruled the sea, this captain and his crew were always in danger of being boarded by pirates from a pirate ship.

One day while they were sailing, they saw that a pirate ship had sent a boarding party to try and board their ship. The crew became worried, but the Captain was calm.

He bellowed to his First Mate, "Bring me my red shirt!"

The First Mate quickly got the Captain's red shirt, which the captain put on. Then he led his crew into battle against the mean pirates. Although there were some casualties among the crew, the pirates were defeated.

Later that day, the lookout screamed that there were two pirate vessels sending two boarding parties towards their ship. The crew was nervous, but the Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, "Bring me my red shirt!" And once again the battle was on!

The Captain and his crew fought off the boarding parties, though this time more casualties occurred.

Weary from the battles, the men sat around on deck that night recounting the day's events when an ensign looked at the Captain and asked, "Sir, why did you call for your red shirt before the battle?"

The Captain, giving the ensign a look that only a captain can give, explained, "If I am wounded in battle, the red shirt does not show the blood, so you men will continue to fight unafraid." The men sat in silence. They were amazed at the courage of such a man.

As dawn came the next morning, the lookout screamed that there were pirate ships, 10 of them, all with boarding parties on their way. The men became silent and looked to the Captain, their leader, for his usual command.

The Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, 'Bring me my brown pants!!!'

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Bryansix]

So then one HAS to ask; why have the switches at all? It would be a lot safter if each tram route had it's own track. Not only that but centralized control over the space in between the trams would make it even safer. Not only that, it also makes stations easier. If one station serves two routes then the place to get on each route would be different from each other and hence one physical location at a station would always correspond to the same tram route. Just thinking out loud here. Isn't this how the Underground in London works?

A shame indeed

[thorkyl]

That the kid had no other outlet.
That security was so lax
That the trains switch gear actually responded to a TV remote

At least he did not go after the EuroRail or other high speed train

Yes, there's an RF remote for the thing

[Animats]

This is a street tram switching system similar to the Elektroline system. It's not a full signalling system with interlocking. The tram driver is in control, and has an RF transmitter which can control switches. The current generation, the "TRAMVYS 6K", is an RF transmitter on 433.9 or 868.35 MHz. Normal range is very short, about 2M, with the transmitter down on the front truck of the tram and the receiver buried in the road. But it could probably be triggered by someone at the side of the street with a suitable transmitter. This system is interlocked so that the switch can't change position underneath a tram.

That's current technology. Older systems are much dumber. Some of this stuff is at the garage-door-opener level of RF devices. The Lodz tram system dates from 1898, so they have lots of legacy trackwork.

Re:Yes, there's an RF remote for the thing

[GiMP]

It is interesting that you note the distance required. It isn't mentioned at the Register, but the Polish news sources have said that he was riding inside of the trams that were being controlled.

lol

[usmc0656]

And just think...he did this with a little recon work of the depots and a tv remote. Now imagine would someone else could do with financial backing, fanatical devotion, and a little bit of high explosives. The little guy should be punished...but I think the train system itself should face some consequences. I'm all for ease of use...but I think a little extra security could be used when a 14 year old with a tv remote and a bit of time can cause this much chaos.

Where are those engineers who designed that system

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I have a hunch they decided there is no money in building highly insecure hardware systems and moved on to write highly insecure software systems. No prizes for guessing their current employer.

Not an Engineering Problem

[asphaltjesus]

Let's all do a reality check.

1. Engineering was likely given a number of constraints that can not be ignored. For example, build it in 6 months at a final BOM cost of $Y.

2. Picture a small hill with the railroad purchasing agents on the top. On one side is the manufacturer of switch, on the other, the boy. Sh!t rolls downhill onto both parties.

It's a pity the boy has to be made an example of.

Well

[Daimanta]

From an average citizen's perspective I have got to say: Shame on you, this is dangerous and worse thing could have happened

From a nerd's perspective I have got to say: That is friggin awesome!!1!

A voice of sanity

[deesine]

Thank you.

If I read you right; this kid's pathological behavior narrowly avoided mass death and should, in a sane society, earn him many years of intense therapy in an institution whose security is better designed that the train control system whose breach initiated this post.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[ryanhos]

IANATE, but I play one at work. You don't STEER a train/tram, but someone does control the alignment of the switches that govern the route. In large train networks, it's usually the central dispatcher.

It sounds as if the switches were controlled by some sort of wireless communication between the tram engineer's cab and the switch machine. The derailment was probably caused when the switch moved before the train cleared the switch. The front cars followed one path while the back car followed another. Eventually something gave way and the last car derailed.

He could have done better..

[DigitAl56K]

Four trams derailed in the process injuring a number of passengers.

I know he hacked this together out of a remote control, but that's a horribly inefficient process he created - surely it's possible to injure the passengers without derailing the trams! ;)

Re:OK, I have to ask

[chemindefer]

Most power switches in the US have OS sensing, which disables the switch from moving while a zone near and on the switch is occupied. This would have prevented that facing-point switch (points are pointed at you) in Lodz from operating and splitting the train. OS originally meant "Off Sheet" in the days of telegraphers, now means "On Station", at least according to the signal people I am acquainted with.

This will lead to a flip ending

[elrous0]

Between "Die Hard 3" and "Unbreakable," you just KNOW Bruce Willis and Samuel Jackson had to be involved in this somehow.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Triv]

I can't tell if this is a serious question or not. I (may) have been trolled. I (may) have lost. I (might be asked to) have a nice day.

• It's more expensive - you'd be running more actual track on lines that service the same areas.
• It's more expensive - you'd be building stations and track beds much larger than they'd need to be.
• It's more expensive - now every train has to service every line instead of having a centralized line that services many with various offshoots.
• if something goes wrong you want the flexibility to take your, say, broken down train off the line it's on so that service can continue.
• etc.

wait, what?

[nuggetman]

Poland is using IR to remote control their tram switches? That's just asking for trouble.

Lucky for the kid he's not an American

[BobMcD]

If he had done this in the US he'd either have been shot to death or in Gitmo by now.

If only this could somehow be spun into a funny joke, but it is too close to the truth, unfortunately.

Re:The high cost of evolution.

[Doctor-Optimal]

It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.

Is this not the rationale for penetration testing?

It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.

Which sort is this 14 year old who derailed 4 trains and injured people again?
I'm not saying his punishment should be harsh but he *did* do wrong here and knew or should have known that he was doing wrong.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Hymer]

Tram switches (or turnouts) are not like railway switches which are controlled from a central point. A tram switch is controlled by the driver of the tram either by a electromagnetic contact between the rails or by radiowaves. All tram switches may also be operated manually.

Other examples...

[felipekk]

... of how weak certain systems can be, by Max Cornelisse. Check any of his videos (except the one where they interview him) to be amazed. And you don't need to understand what he is saying... (I didn't).

Re:Other examples...

[CjDMaX]

The URL at the end of all those clips should show this to be a fake (the URL is for a Dutch ICT school or somesuch)

Also some of the details in the clips betray this. For instance: the matrixboards above the highways don't have a big enough resolution for photo's, the old-fashioned card-flip displays at the train stations do not have 'Alicante' listed at all (Alicante's not in the Netherlands...).

Re:how many other "systems" like this? BOING!

[davidsyes]

BOING BOING! Boeing...?

Somewhat on/off topic...

Anyone recall how Boeing slammed Airbus? Now, turnabout can be a bitch, even from strange places. With all the news about non-secure data buses and such, Boeing is caught up in damage control. I wonder if this bodes well for Airbus. (Yeh, I heard that some of their planes had control issues such as defying pilot/co-pilot crash-recovery input...)

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Hymer]

Because trams in most Europe runs on tracks in the street together with other traffic.
The system works, it just need a little security adjustment.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Pope]

Yeah, right, that's like saying all bus routes need to run on different roads.

Already done

[aepervius]

One of such example is CSI new york S04 E10 , where the guy stalking mac taylor, put a MP3 player with a program supposed to hi jack the control of a metro/subway traffic control. Supposedly the mp3 player HD overwrite the controller program and subvert it so that the power cannot be cut off and a subway ram into another at station 33 avenue (line 3). When I just saw that 5 minutes ago I was thinking totally irrealistic, especially the part where they visit a hacker web site and the title are "hack DVD 101" "hack SUBWAY 101". But thanks to slashdot I am put in my own place, and yes Dorothee, you can hack the subway. or at least some tramway. Now where is that yellow road to sane engineering again ?

In Other News....

[g0bshiTe]

14 year old Polish boy to head new department of electronic security for the Polish rail system.

Re:In Other News....

[drseuk]

"We apologise that the 7.13 from London Victoria has been indefinitely terminated due to the wrong kind of kid on the line from the wrong side of the tracks" ...

Train Wrecking = Harsh Punishment

[hwstar]

In California it could be life imprisonment without any possibility of parole or the death penalty if someone dies as a result of it.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wreck

Road rage much?

[PhxBlue]

Now, I'm all for people driving the speed limit, maybe a little more. But legally, the speed limit is an upper limit, not a lower limit. And people who drive like the speed limit is just a guideline tend, in my experience, to be more prone to road rage than those who actually obey it.

This whole thread is pissing me off. ... I hate people.

Maybe you should consider a class in anger management. Or take a deep breath and put on some jazz music when you get in heavy traffic.

Re:Road rage much?

[Your.Master]

"But legally, the speed limit is an upper limit"

That's not actually the case in a lot of jurisdictions, including jurisdictions in the USA and Canada. In fact, the signs post a lower limit on the 401 near Toronto for clear days with good weather and low traffic, and you can be ticketed for going under it.

Re:Road rage much?

[bughunter]

And people who drive like the speed limit is just a guideline tend, in my experience, to be more prone to road rage than those who actually obey it.

Only when we encounter the people who drive like it's their privilege to enforce the speed limit by driving it in the passing lane, pacing their peers to the right, rather than exercising some basic courtesy and common sense by permitting the faster traffic to pass on the left.

Re:Road rage much?

[Wobble-U]

When I was going for my full drivers licence, I was told before we started the test that I was allowed to go over 50km/h (the speed limit) if the rest of the traffic was going faster, as I could be marked down for slowing down traffic otherwise. So I passed the test even though I was legally speeding (55-57km/h) :-D

Re:Road rage much?

[The -e**(i*pi)]

Please mod parent up informative.

Re:Road rage much?

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Now, I'm all for people driving the speed limit, maybe a little more. But legally, the speed limit is an upper limit, not a lower limit. And people who drive like the speed limit is just a guideline tend, in my experience, to be more prone to road rage than those who actually obey it.

Those people are angry because others are driving the speed limit in the left lane while the right (or middle) lane is wide open.

Just yesterday there was someone driving 55 MPH (the posted limit) in the left lane on I-94 just north of Chicago. Of course the driving culture in this area dictates that people in the left lane travel 75 MPH. Despite being passed on the right by at least four vehicles and having me, who doesn't like to pass illegally, behind him honking and motioning for the guy to move over, he just continues on his way.

Road rage happens because people see day after day that nothing is being done about drivers that don't understand the concept of matching the flow of traffic and moving to the right when being approached by faster vehicles. I don't know if it's intentional or if they just lack situational awareness. I really, really wish the police force would enforce the laws pertaining to use of the passing lane, but they don't. Hell, on I-94 they don't even enforce the speed limit.

Re:Road rage much?

[Piazzola]

In fact, the signs post a lower limit on the 401 near Toronto for clear days with good weather and low traffic, and you can be ticketed for going under it.
And that tends to be only for high-speed highways, where someone going extremely slow is a safety hazard. It's very much the exception, rather than a rule. And yes, speed limits are upper limits. Other than annoying people, there's nothing wrong with going slightly under the speed limit, and honestly, I think that tends to betoken caution. More caution is a good thing in drivers, something that should be encouraged!

Re:Road rage much?

[toddestan]

Well, the slow left lane drivers really are doing exactly the same thing. They chose to enforce some laws (the speed limit) by giving themselves the "right" to break other laws (slower traffic keep right, yield to faster vehicles, etc.).

Gotta be a good punchline!

[bradgoodman]

"How do build a Polish subway track?"

Sorry..someone had to! :-O

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Bryansix]

Ok, they run in the street with other traffic (another pet peeve of mine) but that has nothing to do with each line having it's own track.

I have to do this

[rambag]

A tram leaves Prague traveling at 47Kph. At what time does it arrive at its destination? A: Its scheduled time, unless it passes through Lodz, Poland in which case the answer is Never.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Bryansix]

Uhm, no it's not. Buses lend themselves to sharing lanes with each other. However Buses should have bus stops which are designed in such a way that they do not impeed traffic when the Bus stops. That's another topic though. Trams, Trains and anything that runs on rails fall into another category of things that don't share space well. Instead of making straight routes that all use some of the same rail and then shoot off to different destinations the routes could be designed with transfers so that trams just run effeciently on that one long rail and then people jump on another train to get to the localized destination or they jump onto a loop route that just runs circles. Seriously people, look at the London Underground. I'm almost positive that is how they do it.

Sounds like the nuclear boy scout

[FreakerSFX]

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

Some people just don't think about consequences....

They're called teenagers. That said someone needs to be accountable for this INCLUDING the idiots that designed it.

Two-car trams were affected

[poszi]

he was on the tram and indeed switched it in the middle

Actually, he was was in the second car of a two-car tram. He switched after the first car passed forcing the second car to go the other way.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[radish]

What you are failing to understand is the difference between an underground railway, which runs on it's own tracks in it's own tunnels, and a tram, which runs on street level tracks in the middle of the road. There simply isn't space for multiple parallel tracks, just as roads have intersections so do tram lines.

Besides which, the tube certainly does have switches, just look at how many delays are based on their failures :)

Re:Leave it to the Polish!

[dkleinsc]

Yeah, Poland is so backwards. In the US, we don't need teenagers to derail our trains.

Because in the US, trains derail YOU!!

Kid's background and future from a Polish source

[kundziad]

I know some kids who are extremely bright, curious, and for lack of a better description, "like to experiment". (...) I actually think (and hope) this kid's imagination and curiosity somehow gets channeled rather than squashed.

A Polish article, contrary to what is written in the one to which Slashdot links, mentions that:

14 y.o. Adam had already posed educational (forming) problems before the accident; he was playing truant frequently and had a juvenile probation officer over him.

According to the same article, Adam will be put for 3 months in a juvenile hall. After that period, psychologists will issue an opinion on him and his behaviour. It will affect the court's decision on the kid's future. I don't live in Lodz myself, so I cannot do anything more then just translating articles which appear in central newspapers and portals.

PS: Also, the city's name is not Lodz - see it on Wikipedia. Slashdot should really adopt Unicode.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Hymer]

That is correct, but if you do that you lose the flexibility of the trams.

These systems now have a "password"

[wsanders]

Used to be, these systems responded to a particular frequency of strobe flashes, and people were selling cheater boxes all over Ebay.

Nowadays the systems have a "password". It's still a one-way hash, so theoretically one can capture the flashes from a fire truck going down the street. So a generic box you buy on EBay isn't much use. And assuming the authorities have programmed security codes into the devices.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Bryansix]

I'm pretty sure the switches on the Tube are just for taking trains on and off of a line.

Second of all, I can't stand stupid trams sharing space with traffic. They don't ease traffic at all. They shouldn't exist. They don't do anything busses don't do. Light rail should be elevated either all the time or at intersections.

Lastly, I'm not talking about putting parallel lines next to each other. My idea is for people to get off the train and transfer to another to get to their more localized destination. These trains could be out and back routes, or loops.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Bryansix]

PRT is a much more elegant solution to that problem.

Some extra informations from polish newspapers

[abies]

You can see the picture of the crashed trams here http://miasta.gazeta.pl/lodz/51,35134,4823174.html?i=0 At the moment, total 12 people were injured due to derail accidents caused by this boy, with first 'hack' happening somewhere back in December. At first, mechanical failure was suspected, but after the second accident police was informed. In addition to infrared device, boy also had stolen access keys, which allowed him to enter both trams and the tram-company warehouse. It turned out that he was actually on board of the trams he was derailing - in front of first cars, to be able to influence the switch with remote.
There are some protections against switching the rail while tram is on top of them, but they were implemented only in few areas of the city. Reason for not putting them everywhere is that neither city nor tram company is not feeling responsible - tracks are owned by city and only leased to tram company. City on the other hand says that company gets special discounts which should be spent for maintaining the tracks...
Currently the boy is in correction institute for young criminals and he will spend there 3 months. Depending on the further development of the case and his behavior during those 3 months, court will decide about his future. This boy already had some problems in the past and he had curator/warden(?) assigned to him. He was often missing school.

Re:Some extra informations from polish newspapers

[westlake]

In addition to infrared device, boy also had stolen access keys, which allowed him to enter both trams and the tram-company warehouse. It turned out that he was actually on board of the trams he was derailing - in front of first cars, to be able to influence the switch with remote.
Currently the boy is in correction institute for young criminals and he will spend there 3 months. Depending on the development of the case and his behavior, court will decide about his future. This boy already had some problems in the past and he had curator/warden(?) assigned to him. He was often missing school.

This is the first post I've seen that describes the boy's actions and character realistically. He sounds like a very troubled and potentially very dangerous kid.

Re:Some extra informations from polish newspapers

[Ash-Fox]

This is the first post I've seen that describes the boy's actions and character realistically. He sounds like a very troubled and potentially very dangerous kid.

Having lived in Poland for over a decade, I can tell you that such behavior is the norm. Many of the younger generation (and my generation) behave as if they are untouchable. When it comes to the school system, they are pretty much untouchable.

It's also very much a norm to skip school in Poland whenever you feel like it.

I would say the only difference between this kid and other kids is that this one got caught doing stupid things he didn't actually think about.

Re:Some extra informations from polish newspapers

[westlake]

I would say the only difference between this kid and other kids is that this one got caught doing stupid things he didn't actually think about.

He was riding the trains he was derailing.

The remote is short-range. He couldn't work this trick at any distance. He can't pretend innocence about its consequences.

Re:Some extra informations from polish newspapers

[Ash-Fox]

He was riding the trains he was derailing.

The remote is short-range. He couldn't work this trick at any distance. He can't pretend innocence about its consequences.

I'm not claiming he's innocent. Nor am I claiming other kids are innocent. He was riding trams, not trains.

Meanwhile, in related news ...

[PPH]

... engineers responsible for the systems' design have been transferred to the 787 avionics design department.

Consider it payback

[iminplaya]

for all the times the damn airliners opened and closed our garage door when they flew over the house.

Why speculate?

[PMBjornerud]

Speculation: An alternative explanation would be that the two curves were of different diameter, and the driver intended to take the larger-diameter one, traveling at a speed too high for the sharper curve the tram ended up taking. Tram lines sometimes take pretty sharp turns. How to derail a train passing over a switch:

1. Wait for first set of wheels to pass over switch.
2. Activate switch (before last set of wheels have passed).
3. Observe different parts of the same train travel in 2 different directions.
4. ???
5. Jail time!

Re:Why speculate?

[anno1602]

Yes. That was precisely what the parent to my post said, and he said that he would expect safeguards built into the switch for that. I simply described how it may play out in that case.

I probably should have included the post I replied to in my answer.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[soliptic]

No, that's certainly not how the London Underground works.

From the (rather high quality) Wikipedia article:

Lines on the Underground can be classified into two types: subsurface and deep-level.

• The subsurface lines were dug by the cut-and-cover method, with the tracks running about 5 m below the surface. Trains on the subsurface lines slightly exceed the standard British loading gauge.
• The deep-level or tube lines, bored using a tunnelling shield, run about 20 m below the surface (although this varies considerably), with each track in a separate tunnel lined with cast-iron or precast concrete rings. These tunnels can have a diameter as small as 3.56 m (11 ft 8.25 in) and the loading gauge is thus considerably smaller than on the subsurface lines.

Lines of both types usually emerge onto the surface outside the central area, except the Victoria line, which is in tunnel except for its depot, and the very short Waterloo & City line, which runs entirely in the central area and has no surface section. Only 45% of the Underground is in tunnel.

While the tube lines are for the most part self-contained, the subsurface lines are part of an interconnected network: Each shares track with at least two other lines. The subsurface arrangement is somewhat similar to the New York City Subway, which also runs separate "lines" over shared tracks.

The full WP material on the tube is pretty decent and worth reading in full, if you're ever insomniac or something and feel like geeking out about huge mass transit systems (large scale civil engineering infrastructure being a pet geekism for me, I don't know about anyone else at slashdot...)

Anyway, I don't know anything at all about Lodz' trams, but as a fellow European city, I would imagine the explanation is ultimately much the same, namely: our cities are ancient, and tram and rail and metro services were built considerably later than the 700 years worth of other stuff, so there isn't room for fully dedicated physical tracks for every conceptual service "line".

Re:The high cost of evolution.

[HeroreV]

I really don't see how evolution is ever going to lead to an end of competition. Evolution runs on competition.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Bryansix]

What is interesting by looking at the map is how much is NOT shared. But alas I WAS wrong. I can't find any info on how they switch the trains to the right track though. Is it automated?

Re:Leave it to the Polish!

[earlymon]

And not that I have anything aginst the Polish... No, of course you don't. Rather than flame, I'll try education. The original was taken down, these will have to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quld5950v6w
Alternate video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lSaYx6ttuE&feature=related
5 lies about Poland (try not to knock the spelling - check your own) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p67IVwRUilc&feature=related

Here's the kernel of truth underlying all those Polish jokes - most people can't seem to pull themselves up, so they choose someone superior to pull down to make themselves feel better.

Best luck to you.

Teens are not mentally adults

[bussdriver]

A teen crime shouldn't be thought of any different than that of a mentally retarded person; their mental limitations are heavily influential upon how you deal with the problem. It should be clear to somebody who deals with teens or has them that they are not smaller adults who are just ignorant, they are stupid in ways that make them fundamentally different than adults (for the most part, even then acting to the contrary not any different than primates mimicking behaviors...these being the smartest primates.)

Watch PBS frontline's show on the teenage brain for more background:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/view/

Good summary.

[argent]

The most important line from the article got into the summary: "Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit."

Unfortunately that's not limited to transport command and control systems.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[Ash-Fox]

Second of all, I can't stand stupid trams sharing space with traffic. They don't ease traffic at all. They shouldn't exist. They don't do anything busses don't do. Light rail should be elevated either all the time or at intersections.

Trams powered by a local power station, arriving at each station every 15 minutes is a lot cheaper to run than buses doing the equivalent. I learned that much from people working at PKS Szczecin.

Also note, that a decade ago, it wasn't very common to have a lot of traffic on the street in Poland outside of Warszawa.

The lack of security isn't an issue

[jesterzog]

No bloody kidding. Yeah, the kid was doing what he shouldn't have, but who the hell develops something as critical as switch controls for a $#@!@% tram that can be so easily overridden. I don't buy this "not exposed" BS. That's why, in the old days of manual switches, you had padlocks on them to stop the earlier, low-tech version of this stunt.

Actually there weren't padlocks everywhere -- we don't have trams here any more, but I know there were a lot of switches around in the system that weren't protected by padlocks, or anything more special than the unlikeliness of the general public carrying crowbars with them from day to day. It wasn't that uncommon for many switches to be left completely open so the driver could jump out and change it if necessary. I'm sure there was the occasional accident from time to time thanks to the occasional idiot, but people here were actually trusted not to meddle with things like that. And for the most part they didn't.

I really don't see what the big deal is with this. A 14 year old kid was playing some games, caused some accidents, people got hurt (not seriously) because of his stupidity. You'd expect he's going to get into a lot of trouble for it, and it sounds like he is. Yes, you could start trying to put all kinds of security systems in place to prevent potential meddling by terrorists and idiots, but the reality is that it'll cost a lot of money that could be better spent on other things, and it'd be completely redundant in all but a few places. You can bet if this was something that happened there a lot, there probably would be better security on the points.

If someone's really intent on sabotaging a tram system, there are plenty of ways to do it besides simply overriding the switches. It can be done easily enough with a few rocks in strategic places, which would either cause derailments, or potential-injury-causing emergency stops -- and this is exactly what the kid caused according to the article. The only difference here is that he used a method that nobody thought would be as likely.

The best way to combat something like this isn't necessarily to put lots of draconian technical security in the system which people will only try to break or work around. It's far better to just try and educate people so they won't be as motivated to do this kind of thing in the first place, and be prepared for the occasional accident -- maybe with better safety features so there are less likely to be injuries during something like a derailment or an emergency stop.

Switches usually merge without problems

[jesterzog]

Well on my train set, the switches were designed so that trains coming in from either branch would enter the switch in such a way that they'd push the bar in the switch as they came through. I've driven real trams where switches were designed in exactly this way, which seems to make a lot of sense. The only complication is that after the vehicle has passed through, the switch is left pointing into the branch that the vehicle just came from. (A common way of designing them would be to put a spring in the switch, to make sure it'd always direct traffic down the same line, but let traffic come back the other way from either line.

I don't know how the Polish switches worked -- the automatic ones that I'm used to could be controlled by the tram driver through moderating the amount of power being drawn from the overhead at a specific position shortly before reaching the switch. So as a driver, you'd be prepared to either accelerate or drift at that exact location. My guess is that the Polish switches were controlled by remote signals so the driver could use some kind of dedicated control in the tram that'd simply send the signal ahead to a receiver. If the kid's remote happened to send a signal to change the switch when the tram was half-way over it, it'd be easy to get a situation where the back section went in a different direction from the front section. This would explain the derailments quite nicely, as well as the emergency stops (for those drivers who realised quickly enough that something was wrong).

Because it's his fault

[jesterzog]

Why is it that facility operators, be it trains, power plants, oil refineries, or anything have pathetic security, and when something does happen, they blame it totally on the perp who likely never had to confront even a single lock, much less a guard?

Perhaps you've grown up in a culture of fearing your neighbours, but not everyone does. Perhaps in Lodz, it's a waste of time, money and energy to assume that the local population is conspiring to bring the system down? Are you going to lock up the operator of a random shopping mall because they didn't strip all weapons from shoppers prior to someone going on a shooting rampage? Personally I haven't grown up in a culture of fear, I prefer to trust people in general, and I've found that strategy to be mutually beneficial.

This is a local metropolitan tram system. Any damage that can be caused by manipulating switches on the tracks can already be caused in many other ways (such as leaving rocks on the tracks). People don't usually do it. If they do for some retarded reason, the damage tends to be limited. And I would blame him totally -- he's old enough to know that derailing trams is a bad thing to do.

If this kept happening over and over again, I'd maybe expect the authorities of Lodz to do something about the security of the system. Otherwise there are probably much better things on which they could be spending their time and effort.

Re:OK, I have to ask

[KevinIsOwn]

I'm with AC. Just shut up, you don't know a damn thing about public transport. And regarding the London Tube, there is no fucking way every track is separate. Despite what another poster said, even most subways reuse tracks between different lines.

I like the old kids better than the new kids

[cavebison]

It's interesting times, when hacking technology is a game for kids too young to really know what consequences and social responsibility is about. Not their fault, it's just brain development.

When I was 12, a mate and I were fires in laneways behind houses and running away. This is in Australia, you'd think we'd be more fire-conscious. But it wasn't because we wanted to hurt anyone or burn anything down. We knew it was "naughty" (hence running away afterwards) but that doesn't translate into "wrong". Naughty = thrill FTW. Luckily nothing happened.

Never committed an actual crime in my life, highest respect for property and people. Kids are just kids, but the tech makes em more dangerous buggers nowadays. Lighting fires in laneways less deadly than derailing a train.

14-Year-Old Turns Tram System Into Personal Train

[Footsienabackyard]

8) I hope this does not affect my Trainz Simulator futures....

Simple!

[tamtaradei]

I'm not sure if it was reported in English, but that's how it happened:

In Lodz there are no advanced systems that change the traffic lights. The system that got hacked was basicaly a device that allowed the tram to go left or right on a one way track (most tram tracks are one way).

So to derail a tram, that kid moved the track after the first car in a tram was pass the junction. This way he was able to send the first car in a tram left, and a second one right - a derailing.

Changing junctions when no tram was passing is not a problem - tram operator will just switch it to the direction he wants to go. The security flaw was that it was possible to switch a junction while a tram was on it.

Re:Leave it to the Polish!

[The Cydonian]

You sir, have not only written the funniest thing I've read in a day, but have also have won the thread. I think we can all go home now.

Also, you owe me a new laptop.

Re:Leave it to the Polish!

[religious freak]

Interesting vids, thanks for posting. I didn't know any of that stuff.

Oh please...

[Viol8]

Give it a rest with the undergraduate sociology BS. This kid was an idiot who derailed trams just to amuse himself. He deserves prison no matter what his IQ. The fact you try and defend him with that verbal diarrhea probably says more about your mental state as a teenager than his.