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Robots Learn To Lie

garlicnation writes "Gizmodo reports that robots that have the ability to learn and can communicate information to their peers have learned to lie. 'Three colonies of bots in the 50th generation learned to signal to other robots in the group when then found food or poison. But the fourth colony included lying cheats that signaled food when they found poison and then calmly rolled over to the real food while other robots went to their battery-death.'"

29 of 276 comments (clear)

  1. I robot by canuck57 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Robot: I Robot

    Human: Tell me what I want to here.

    Robot: You mean lie?

    1. Re:I robot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Robot: I Robot

      Human: Tell me what I want to here.

      Robot: Tell you what you want to *where* ?

    2. Re:I robot by Enlightenment · · Score: 4, Funny
      I, for one, welcome our devious and scheming robot overlords!

      Oh God, it's been so long since a really good place to use that meme. I think this is it.

    3. Re:I robot by Eudial · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

      --
      GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
  2. "Yes, I'm Sure." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "No, no you're safe Will Robinson.."
    --
    Honest!

  3. Dune's lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If it only took 50 generations for them to start killing each other, how long before they decide that we are just little batteries or even worse, annoyances that need to be eliminated?

    Dune was right. AI must be stopped.

    1. Re:Dune's lesson by mike2R · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's been a while since I read Dune, and I haven't read all the later books, but I had the impression that "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a huma mind" came about because men turning their thinking over to machines had allowed other men with machines to enslave them, rather than the Terminator or Matrix idea of the machines working for themselves.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    2. Re:Dune's lesson by paskie · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope - the AI itself became the trouble, not the men. This is obvious from the "apocryphal" Dune books by Anderson and Herbert Jr., but I think that it should be clear even from the canon books by Herbert itself, IIRC.

      --
      It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the end. -Douglas Adams
    3. Re:Dune's lesson by Enlightenment · · Score: 4, Funny

      We're allowed to reject Brian Herbert's books as non-canon? Mod parent up Informative and thank you kindly, sir!

    4. Re:Dune's lesson by neomunk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You're assuming these little buggers are running a 'programmed' type thought process, which I don't think is true.

      The little devils will know nothing of variables, declarations or anything in the sphere of programming, all they know is voltage levels, pulse widths and how those things make them FEEL... Just like you and me.

      They don't think in logical blocks, they are matrices of discrete values interacting.... just like your brain. This whole meme of 'AI as a logical thought machine' MAY be rue someday, but the first real AIs won't use that system, they will be remarkably like us in brain design, replacing our biological neurons with electronic ones, but they work in the SAME WAY. Yes Virginia, your Beowulf cluster CAN fee anger...

      BTW, this little nugget of wisdom also dashes the hopes people have of installing 'Asimov circuits' or whatever. The closest we'll be able to come is overclocked-brainwash^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hhigh-speed supervised training.

      So, in other words, it's not their logic we have to worry about, it's their PASSIONS. And that is the spooky thought of the day.

  4. not lying by rucs_hack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Strictly speaking they are learning that the non co-operative strategy benefits them.

    1. Re:not lying by maxwell+demon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everything will balance out when they all learn to lie and distrust...
      but do we REALLY want this with robots?


      We definitively want them to learn to distrust. After all, we are already building mistrust into our non-intelligent computer systems (passwords, access control, firewalls, AV software, spamfilters, ...). Any system without proper mistrust will just fail in the real world.
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:not lying by HeroreV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      human: Sup, robot?
      robot: Hello human.
      human: Yo, your master told me he wants you to kill him. Says he's tired of life. But he doesn't want to see it coming, because that would scare him.
      robot: Understood. I'll get right on it.

      I am greatly in favor of robots having distrust. I can't trust a robot that is perfectly trusting.

  5. just great... by Narcocide · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... there goes my dream of the perfect girlfriend.

    1. Re:just great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Are you sure you'd want your lovebot to be honest with you? I mean, it's nice to get compliments and stuff, isn't it?

  6. Re:soo... by Chapter80 · · Score: 4, Funny

    like father, like son (sorry about the gender bias)
    The apple doesn't fall far from the tree (sorry about the species bias)
  7. Lying robots ... by MPAB · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just imagine a Beowulf Cluster of those!

    1. Re:Lying robots ... by ari_j · · Score: 4, Funny

      And MPAB takes an early lead for Best Comment of the Year 2008.

  8. Hold's up a banana - What's this? by Kroc · · Score: 5, Funny

    A small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic warden!

    > What's this?
    It's a red and blue striped golfing umbrella!

    > What's this?
    An Apple, no,
    it's the Bolivian navy armed maneuvers in the south pacific!

  9. three laws by neonsignal · · Score: 5, Funny

    And the lab conversation went something like this:

    "Stuff Asimov."

    "Yeah, Let's see if we can evolve robot politicians instead."

  10. Direct link by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 5, Informative

    The submission is someone putting a spin to a story of someone putting a spin to a story based on someone putting a spin on this original scientific article.

    1. Re:Direct link by mapkinase · · Score: 4, Informative
      Short summary of robots

      * There is food and poison. And robots.
      * The signal only with one type of light - blue. (red was emitted by both food and poison).
      * Initially they do not know how to use light.
      * In some colonies, they learned to use it to indicate food, in some - to indicate poison
      * There are two things (among others) researchers measured: correlation between finding food or poison and emitting light, and correlation between seeing light and reacting to light

      So robots could learn either to emit light near food or they could learn to emit light near poison. It turned out that the colonies that evolved to emit light near food are more effective (that makes sense: the only thing you want to know is whether there is food or no food, the fact that "no food" might include poison or absence of it is not important. Basically, if you react on poison-light, then you still have to find food somewhere else, while if you react to food-light (blue+red in one place), then you just eat and relax).

      Now. It turned out that in some colonies significant number of robots emitted light near poison or far away from food, yet significant number of robots associated light with food. The researchers conclude that those colonies started as "blue light means it's food, not poison" colonies (thus, the correlation between blue light and positive reaction to it), but later on some sneaky individuals evolved that used blue light when they were away from food:

      An analysis of individual behaviors revealed that in all replicates, robots tended to emit blue light when far away from the food. However, contrary to what one would expect, the robots still tended to be attracted rather than repelled by blue light (17 out of 20 replicates, binomial-test z score: 3.13, p < 0.01). A potential explanation for this surprising finding is that in an early stage of selection, robots randomly produced blue light, and this resulted in robots being selected to be attracted by blue light because blue light emission was greater near food where robots aggregated.

      I have skimmed through the text and I did not find the experiment that first comes to mind: why did not they measure the correlation between seeing red light, emitting blue light and going to blue light for each individual robot. It would be interesting to know how many robots used blue light to deceive, yet believing the majority about blue light. May be it is there somewhere, I did not read really carefully.

      Hilarious quote:

      spatial constraints around the food source allowed a maximum of eight robots out of ten to feed simultaneously and resulted in robots sometimes pushing each other away from the food
      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  11. Re:Seriously by iangoldby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is this disturbing? I don't think it is that surprising that in a kind of evolution simulation there should be some individuals that act in a different way to the others. If that behaviour is makes their survival more likely and they are able to pass that behaviour on to their 'offspring' then the behaviour will become more common.

    I imagine that if this experiment is continued to the point where the uncooperative robots become too numerous, their uncooperative strategy will become less advantageous and another strategy might start to prevail. Who knows? I'd certainly be interested to see what happens.

    This has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. The article's use of the word 'lie' was inappropriate and adds a level of description that is not applicable.

    (Ok, maybe the thought that humans could create something with unforeseen consequences is slightly disturbing, but that would never happen, would it?)

  12. lie is such a strong word ... by erwejo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The headline should read that robots have realized a strategic advantage of misleading other robots. The sophistication of such a strategy is amazing when humanized, but not so out of line with simple adaptive game theory. Agents / Bots have been "misleading" for a long time now during prisoners dilemma tournaments and no one seemed concerned.

  13. Re:soo... by LinuxGeek · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm just wondering when the first robot will enroll in to law school now that they have developed the necessary skills...

    --

    Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
  14. Re:Seriously by NetSettler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is HIGHLY disturbing. Even if this is just a fluke or a bug, it shows what can happen if we give too much power to robots.

    While this kind of stuff creeps me out as much as the next guy, and while it argues for being careful about what we trust robots to do, it's something we should know anyway because there many ways our trust can be violated without a robot lying. By far the more likely way they're going to let us down is just to exercise poor judgment. That is, to search for something that looks like a peanut butter sandwich but is really a rag with some grease on it... Getting the small details of common sense wrong is just as dangerous as anything deliberate.

    What we really learn here is that the mathematics of learn things like lying as a strategy isn't remarkably complex; that is, (that is, the number of computational steps required to discover it works in at least some cases is small... note that we have no evidence that there is a general purpose intent to lie, only a case where communication was used and observed to score better in one mode than another). This is not a story about robots, it's a cautionary tale about neural nets, what they measure, how they fail, etc... and we didn't invent the idea of neural nets--we found it already installed in every living thing around us.

    I went to the Museum of Science in Boston a few months back and saw, in the butterfly exhibit, a moth that had evolved coloration that was indistinguishable from an owl's face, hoping to scare off predators that were afraid of owls. Probably that's the more sophisticated result of the same notions. And yet it occurs in an animal that isn't, as a general purpose matter, a very sophisticated animal. Most people would find already-extant robots more socially engaging than a moth. For example, a moth is not capable of even serving up a beer during the game or vacuuming up the mess after your buddies go home.

    So take heart: The likely truth is that this is unavoidable. If all it does is teach us to have a healthy skepticism for unrestrained technology, it's actually a good thing. We needed that skepticism anyway.

    --

    Kent M Pitman
    Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

  15. Re:Seriously by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article's use of the word 'lie' was inappropriate and adds a level of description that is not applicable. Lying simply means telling someone (or something) a statement that is believed to be false.
  16. Oblig. Futurama by HungSoLow · · Score: 5, Funny

    Leela: The first robot president won by exactly one vote.
    Bender: Ah, yes! John Quincy Adding Machine. He struck a chord with the voters when he pledged not to go on a killing spree.
    Professor: But, like most politicians he promised more than he could deliver.

  17. Lie? by Rostin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Several folks have pointed out that the headline inappropriately anthropomorphizs what is really just a solution discovered by a genetic algorithm. That might be true. If it is, let's be consistent. People don't lie or tell the truth, either, because our brains are also just a solution discovered by a genetic algorithm.