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TiVO Patent Upheld, Dish May Have to Disable DVR
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "The US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit upheld a ruling by a lower court that Dish Network DVRs infringe upon TiVO's patent on a 'multimedia time warping system'. According to some analysts, this could not only make Dish liable for damages, it could force them to shut down their DVR service, harming their customers. The patent in question has already been reexamined once and the ruling on appeal (PDF) was unanimous."
I wonder if this will have any effect on MythTV?
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
As I understand it, Dish Networks has pushed upgrades to their units, resolving any infringment issues. Deactivating DVRs isn't on the table.
...isn't that prior art?
"Multimedia time warping"? What's this, Captain Picard's DVR?
They'll have to shell out for licensing. If they lose the DVR option, they're going to lose half their customers. I'm with Dish now, but the minute the DVR is disabled I'll be calling up to cancel (God help them if they try to hold me to my contract, since they'll clearly be breaking it by not providing the service they promised) and calling up DirecTV to see what they have on special that week...
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The jury awarded TiVo $73 911 964 in damages. No wonder there are patent-trolls roaming about, with this kind of money being tossed around.
The patent specifically mentions conversion to and manipulation of the incoming signal via an MPEG formatted stream. Does this mean that devices that use another format for manipulating the streams, say Ogg/Vorbis/Theora, would not be infringing?
Tivo's patent is for analog to digital conversion / time warping.
Dish's patent is for digital to digital (different digital formats) conversion / time warping.
Guess which broadcast standard is going away.... =)
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Correct, unless the other format is MPEG compliant
(emphasis added)
I'm surprised that no one is commenting on the GPLv3 and the effect this has on Tivo using GPLed products.
I can see several situations develop. First, Tivo uses GPLed code (GPLv3) with their time shifting software and is forced to not apply the patent to derived code. Second and probably more likely, they don't use GPLed code (or GPLv3 code) for the recording and time shifting and use the patent to stop hackers from messing around and getting the Tivo functions working with non Tivo firmware or signed kernels.
Or 3, they don't use GPLv3 code all together and nothing has changed. But it is definitely interesting to think about.
Are you kidding? Tivo is pretty much screwed at this point because most people are content (happy is too strong a word - have you SEEN an Explorer 8300!?) with the crappy DVRs their cable/satellite providers now give them.
They NEVER "got plenty of money" - I don't believe they have had more than a couple profitable quarters in 10 years (and those were probably due to lawsuits!)
Their only hope of survival at this point is to protect their patents (that probably still have a good 7-8 years left). Patents that seem to be violated by most of the other DVRs. They are just going after Dish because DirecTV still has Tivo DVRs in service, they made a deal with Comcast (which uses Motorola), and Time Warner uses Scientific Atlanta which is a stretch to call it a DVR ("piece of crap" is a better term).
The idea is not that no one else can make DVRs - it's that Tivo gets more money from Echostar. They only have to stop selling DVRs if they are not willing to come to an agreement. Though Echostar is the kind of company that is happy to screw over it's customers and blame someone else just to be cheap.
Again, someone missing the point about VCRs.
Could you record one program and watch another previously recorded program at the same time? Could you pause a live signal and keep recording while you answered the phone or went to the bathroom?
That's the main difference between a DVR and a VCR. Multitasking recording and playback at the same time, not just passing through the signal for realtime viewing while recording something else.
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
I'm curious to see if I get flamed for this, but I'm going to say that on some philosophical level, Tivo should win this.
I've been very critical of patents in the past, and in general I think they are overused by trolls and big corps to squash competition on obvious ideas. But most people admit that somewhere underneath all that crap is the ideal of a little guy being able to spend a bunch of time and money to invent and bring something to market without having someone else immediately copy them and usurp the benefits of all their hard work. There's a valid, society benefitting reason for patents, it's just that they're almost never used in that way these days any more.
I think Tivo is an example of what patents should protect. My understanding is that Tivo was a pretty clever idea, and they spent a lot of time and money creating something very cool and unique. I never owned one myself, but friends did, and it seemed to me that if anything was patentable it would be Tivo. I was later a bit weirded out when all these competing DVRs appeared. In fact I took it to mean that the patent system was broken in both directions: it encouraged patent trolling over obvious ideas and it failed to protect inventors.
Now I hear that they may be getting patent protection after all, and for the first time since Dyson protected himself against the vacuum manufacturers that refused to license his work, I'm seeing patents do what they were meant to do: encourage actual invention.
If you think Tivo was not worthy of a patent, then I don't know what to tell you. It's not just a VCR, and if it were people would be including VCRs in cable boxes. They came up with something cool that nobody else was doing, and if I understand the market at the time, something nobody else wanted to do. And before they could turn a profit they were slammed by knockoffs from several sides.
Anyways: I just want to call out that while I generally gag at the patent cases I see, this is not one of them. I think Tivo brought something unique to market and they should have a (truly) limited time to exclusively benefit from it.
Cheers.
This case is actually a textbook example of why patents exist. TiVo came up with a novel, innovative product and basically created the market for DVRs. Dish copies the idea, having to invest much less into R&D because they can just do what TiVo does, bundles it with their service so they can cut TiVo out of the market. TiVo is different from a patent troll because TiVo was actively developing and selling products based on the technology and were actually harmed by Dish's violation of their rights.
I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you
I believe it was GoVideo that had the two tape VCR. With this VCR, you could record one show and watch another previously recorded program. You could also start recording a show from the point you wanted to get up. This would allow you to continue watching from the point that you left off. In essence pausing.
Bullshit. TiVO came up with a deadly obvious invention and managed to patent it first.
I had the concept behind TiVO years ago when digital video first started becoming available. It's an obvious idea that anyone who's worked with UNIX pipes could have thought of. TiVO is just more for video.
What stopped people from doing it before TiVO is the same thing that made TiVO ridiculously expensive at first: technology. Hard drives simply weren't big enough to make recording TV to disk a reasonable home application.
When that changed, we got TiVO. Now that technology has improved even further, we've got HD DVRs that can record up to something ridiculous like 50 hours of HD programming.
But the concept is simple. The idea was never novel, it's just assembling a bunch of off-the-shelf parts together. It's why TiVO is dieing - they may have been first to market, but they entered the market before technology had really caught up far enough to make DVRs cheaply.
I'm pretty sure that video capture cards on the PC predated the Tivo. I see that AIW was first introduced on 11/11/96. The Tivo patent is dated 6/30/98. I'm pretty sure that devices that did what the patent claims were down right common by 98. The only thing that Tivo did that was cool was put it in a nice stereo looking case, and had a nice UI.
I know that the AIW pro that is sitting here next to me did everything described by the patent. And it predates the Tivo patent. I don't see how Dish successfully lost this case.
Not really. When I looked this up a while back, as far as I could tell TiVo had several relatively narrow patents on DVR technology that they invented. (The most prominent of these had to do with tricks to get enough performance out of 1990s era hard drive to simultaneously record and view video. That's no longer an issue.) Probably most of their patents can be worked around.
A few years ago, however, TiVo bought the rights from a 3rd party to an older and incredibly broad patent that covers absolutely any DVR implementation, or indeed any simultaneous reading and writing of any digital video stream. (From the claims it looked like the commands mencoder /dev/video -o foo.mpg &; mplayer foo.mpg would inringe.) That kind of makes them a patent troll, since that dubious "invention" (which in a sane world would have been rejected as obvious by the patent office) predates TiVo altogether. The good news is that this particular patent is expiring really soon now.
This means that while they can nail Dish network for patent violation, they themselves have committed a copyright violation and opened themselves up to lawsuits from thousands of developers.
Yes that is the same tired response from someone who has never done the hard work, invested every penny they had and borrowed money from their family to bring a product to market, just to see it jumped on by 18 knock off shops and never see a penny for all their hard work. Yes there are things broken in both Patent and Copyright law, I certainly agree with that. But to hear someone like you blather on about the evils of patent and copyright just sickens me.
I know someone who put himself through school to get a phd in optical design and spent every waking moment writing a better piece of optical design software. His software did 95% of what the major players in the optical design market did for 10% of the price. He published version 1.0 and before he knew it there were pirate copies showing up all over the place. Version 1.01 came along with a DONGOL to protect his Intellectual Property. The software is well into version 10, years later and it still comes with a DONGOL.
Here is your clue... Beer is not free, Freedom is not free, Food is not free, School is not free, Electricity is not free... Get it, NOTHING is free. Take down all the structures we have, no technology, no internal combustion engines, no silicon wafers, no steel mills, nothing, and life is not free. You have to work hard every damn day to survive. The people who invent deserve the fruits of their labor, the people who create great works of art deserver the fruits of their labor, the people who create great software deserve the fruits of their labor.
So stop whining and complaining and go invent, go create, go design, go and WORK because you to deserve the fruits of your labor.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
The dual deck, dual tuner Govideo VCR predated Tivo by MANY years. Two tuners allowed recording of one program while you either recorded or watched another. I worked in the industry throughout. I believe ReplayTV predated them as well.
As I just wrote, there was a dual deck dual tuner VCR from Govideo that recorded while it played back recordings. You could also look at thousands of security devices that did this
The individuals who do the actual inventing rarely make much money. It is the people who market the inventions and get ownership of the intellectual property rights who typically end up with most of the money. Any lawyer can confirm this. Sad but true. The few inventors with the savvy and resources to fight off the charlatans and their lawyers and reap the fruits of their labors are a rare breed, and are becoming ever ever rarer with each passing day.
I have not read the patent, but I wonder if they are claiming recording one program and watching that same program (time shifted) at the same time. That would make sense in the context of TiVO. If so, I don't think any consumer devices can be used as prior art, although there are almost certainly pro devices that allow footage to be edited while it is being imported.
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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
If you actually read the patent you'll see the following:
1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, comprising the steps of: accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL broadcast, satellite transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC; tuning said TV signals to a specific program; providing at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts said specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation; providing a Media Switch, wherein said Media Switch parses said MPEG stream, said MPEG stream is separated into its video and audio components; storing said video and audio components on a storage device; providing at least one Output Section, wherein said Output Section extracts said video and audio components from said storage device; wherein said Output Section assembles said video and audio components into an MPEG stream; wherein said Output Section sends said MPEG stream to a decoder; wherein said decoder converts said MPEG stream into TV output signals; wherein said decoder delivers said TV output signals to a TV receiver; and accepting control commands from a user, wherein said control commands are sent through the system and affect the flow of said MPEG stream.
What this means in laymans terms is that the patent is for the process of taking a video, converting it to a MPEG stream and then separating the audio and video portions which are then stored separately. To play back the video, the video and audio files are combined back into a MPEG stream and then decoded. In addition commands can be used to manipulate playback of the the MPEG stream. The above process allowed MPEG encoding/decoding to occur using very low end hardware. Those who say that TiVo can sue the manufacturers of every hardware and software DVR on the market, either do not understand the above patent or do not understand how other DVRs work. The patent only affects DVRs that store the audio and video separately. Dish was a good target because they basically reverse engineered a prototype that TiVo showed them back in the days to convince them to license the TiVo patent. DirectTV chose to license the technology, which is why they weren't sued.
Very informative, but also very off topic. You should have a laywer explain to you what that section actually means. It has no bearing on this issue. The code TiVo has a patent on is not GPL code, first of all. Second, the section you quote refers to entities that get slapped with restrictions due to a patent they do not own and the effect thereof on their ability to distribute.
Substantiate your claim with specific patents violated, and how, or retract your claim.
If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
So stop whining and complaining and go invent, go create, go design, go and WORK because you to deserve the fruits of your labor.
No thanks. I'll work because I love doing it and because I want to make the world a better place. The people who invent deserve the fruits of their labor, the people who create great works of art deserver the fruits of their labor, the people who create great software deserve the fruits of their labor. Perhaps so, but if that's your goal, we know that the current patent and copyright laws will not accomplish it. The current system is just a crap shoot, albeit heavily weighted towards those who (a) have a lot of money, (b) want to make a lot of money, and (c) are willing to spend a considerable amount of time gaming the system rather than being creative."Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
I believe it was GoVideo that had the two tape VCR. With this VCR, you could record one show and watch another previously recorded program. You could also start recording a show from the point you wanted to get up. This would allow you to continue watching from the point that you left off. In essence pausing.
Back in the early 90s Pioneer had a (professional) magneto-optical video disk recorder that had two heads.
You could use the two heads in multiple ways.
The standard way would be to use one head to erase and the other to record - this meant you could record on a disk that already had something on rather than have to wipe it first, or use both heads in playback which meant you could do realtime edits.
But it could be used in other ways - for example if you had a pre-erased disk you could use one head to record and the other to playback.
I built a system for Pioneer that, using two of these machines, basically allowed an up to one hour delay in any live video feed. IIRC it basically worked like this (I've got the code somewhere on various backups but I can't be bothered to go and find it now). Initially both disks were erased. When you started up it started recording on the first disk. When that disk was full it started recording on the second disk. When you wanted to start playback the second head on the first disk starting playing back. Once that reached the end of the disk you switched to the second disk to continue playback. Once the first disk was full and playback had to have started before it was full (hence why you were limited to IIRC 48000 frames delay) the record head returned to the start and started erasing the disk. Once the second disk was full the first disk was (almost completely) erased and so recording could start on the first disk again. (I lost something like 100 frames of space each time I recycled a disk - to allow time for the head to return to the start. Actually was only about 15 frames but I allowed plenty of leeway)
I also built a small bit of hardware that had a video sync separator connected to one of the RS232 status lines so the computer that was controlling the two disks and the video switcher could count exactly how many frames had been recorded and I didn't have to worry about clockdrift.
That was roughly 100K (GBP) of kit, but it was "off the shelf". Other than the video sync separator (which wasn't strictly necessary unless you planned to run this thing for a day or more where clock drift might start to matter) the only "novelty" in this over and above what was documented in the manual for the video disk recorder was using two of them to mean you could run the output delay for more than half an hour of input. It would also have been completely trivial to stop and start the playback provided the total delay didn't exceed the capacity of the disks available. Indeed, doing that with just one disk was even suggested in the marketing - the idea being that a sports match could be recorded continuously while highlights could be played back.
Tim.
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
What I don't understand is this: how could the courts possibly uphold a patent that has so much prior art?
So basically, TiVo made trivial incremental improvements to a basic concept that had been used for decades whose sole enhancement of consequence is its intended use, and now has a patent that can hold the entire rest of the TV electronics industry hostage. This is a prime example of why patents need to be abolished, or at minimum, dramatically restricted in terms of breadth, what they can cover, and duration. This is basically a patent on using a fork as a backscratcher, and should be thrown out as utterly absurd in any rational universe.
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