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Antivirus Inventor Says Security Pros Are Wasting Time
talkinsecurity writes "Earlier this week Peter Tippett, chief scientist at the ICSA and the inventor of the progam that became Norton Antivirus, had some interesting things to say about the state of the security industry. In a nutshell, Tippett warned that about a third of the work that security departments do today is a waste of time. Tippett goes on to systematically blow holes in a lot of security's current best practices, including vulnerability research/patching, strong passwords, and the product evaluation process. 'If a hacker breaks into the password files of a corporation with 10,000 machines, he only needs to guess one password to penetrate the network, Tippett notes. "In that case, the long passwords might mean that he can only crack 2,000 of the passwords instead of 5,000," he said. "But what did you really gain by implementing them? He only needed one."' Some of his arguments are definitely debatable, but there is a lot of truth to what he's saying as well."
Software / Hardware security is not too difficult to achieve. If an admin is truly competent they will have no problem getting their lab workstations up and running cleanly and bug free with pretty solid security.
The issue is usually the idiot that becomes the victim of a well done social hack.
As usual, the company is only as strong as it's weakest link.
Why would the hacker need to guess one password from a list of password hashes when he already broke in and was able to elevate his rights to read the password hashes file? He might was well add his own password entry.
That's not the point. The point is that instead of making everyone have long passwords, you could take that same time and effort and train them about security risks that are more likely to happen, like them getting an email with an attachment, or using a browser other than IE. The chances of an attacker getting the password file are lower than the chances of a user doing something that will infect their computer because the user hasn't been taught correctly, so why focus on the passwords?
I've had enough of the Security Vendors and their rhetoric. I'm constantly bombarded with requests to attend sales presentations on the latest intrusion detection pizza box appliance, or spam firewall thingy, etc. The value of these products are only so that the execs can point to their "security initiatives" and "best practices" when a breach of security is discovered. If they look like they've made an effort to curtail the risk, then they still get their big bonus.
Dominant Meme
About 3/4 of the work done by the average corporate department is useless. Congrats on the efficency, security people.
Tippett is right on with this, and I'd venture we could go further. Think of how much money is wasted on redundant security and the people to operate it, now add to that all the time and productivity wasted b/c rank and file employees have to navigate under such redundant incumberments.
I honestly feel like 9/11 and it's aftermath has *something* to do with how several sectors of our country are tripping over themselves to implement unnecessary, bloated, counterproductive measures in the name of 'security'.
Existence is insecurity. The only way for something to be 100% secure is for it not to exist.
Thank you Dave Raggett
is stupid because somebody can just kick in a window
except it isn't stupid. if someone is determined enough, they will break into my house, no doubt. most of the security features on my house are meant to deter those with a casual interest
same with all of the efforts that tippett pokes holes in. well yeah, duh: every single security effort in the world is surmountable. what's the value in pointing that out? none
that someone can get over your security measures with effort is not an argument against the lowest level of security. the lowest level security practices always has value: against casual transgressions
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
No one is trying to create an Iron Curtain. Security departments (most of them hopefully) are taking numerous measures to prevent breaches. Including access controls preventing one compromised computer from getting all the marbles via role-based or well-configured discretionary access controls, appropriate traffic filtering and intrusion detection techs.
Risk management is the specific practice of minimizing the greatest risks (what will do the most harm and will be the most likely to happen). And for the most part everyone realizes that no risk can be completely eliminated, so we mitigate them as best we can and rely on fundamentally sound access controls et. al. to limit the effect of any breach and hopefully know about and plan for unforeseen circumstances by planning for certain categories of attacks.
Hopefully I'm right, because if I'm not... I'm scared.
2) You're only as secure as your weakest password. We knew that.
3) This guy shouldn't talk about seatbelts.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
Bruce Schneier wrote about the long password requirement and how it can backfire because users can't remember them. My dad keeps his passwords in a text file on his desktop because his job requires them to change it every month, have letters and number and be different from the last 6 passwords. While that's good in theory, it's counterproductive because he doesn't (and can't) keep the passwords safe. Besides, as seen by myspace and phishers, the strength of the password is rarely the weakest link, it's the security skills of the people. In 90% of the cases, strict passwords are completely useless because they're not the weakest link, other parts of the system and the users are.
Sort of reminds me of Bruce Potter's "8 Dirty Little Secrets of Information Security." The premise of that talk was pretty much that anti-virus, firewalls, IDS, etc., were all just band-aids that masked the real problem: We write (and buy) crappy products. He even showed an extensive quote regarding current threats and the inadequacy of counter-measures, and after everyone in the audience had finished nodding their heads, revealed it was from 1972.
:)
We've been fighting the same problem, in the same way, for 35 years. It's time we regrouped and found a better way to attack it.
Here is a copy of the DefCon version of the speech (I think he's given it a few different places, so there are subtly different versions out there). I'm sure the video is floating out there somewhere, too (though I couldn't find it on YouTube). He's fun to watch.
I can fully understand your cynicism, I share a lot of it. However, Peter Tippett does not work for Norton any more. He works for Verizon Business in their Risk Intelligence, and he has spent the past several years doing actual research on risk on an Enterprise level.
Maybe he's wrong, but he isn't trying to sell you any software.
Ben
That story has more car analogies than an average /. thread.
Or to put it another way, if car analogies were like cars on a highway...
Blank until
But he's confusing ATTACKING a specific company with INFECTING various machines.
They are not the same. The defenses are not the same. There may be overlap (a workstation at a company gets infected and sends out spam vs a workstation at a company gets cracked and is used to crack other boxes at that company) but that is all.
All in all, he's 100% backwards on his comments. Just what you'd expect from someone trying to push a specific product from a specific company.
http://www.schneier.com/paper-attacktrees-ddj-ft.html
Bruce also wrote about "attack trees". Having long passwords ONLY helps if the attacker has unlimited access to crack them. A simple WordNumberWord combination can give you enough security as long as each login attempt is noted and tracked.
If there is a 15 minute delay between every 3 attempts to login, and a HUMAN reviews the logs every work day, your online security should be sufficient.
You only need the 1024bit security when the attacker can download the file and crack it at his leisure. But then, the failure is that you did not prevent the attacker from downloading that file.
There will ALWAYS be some risk. What's to stop the attacker from kidnapping your CEO's daughter and demanding that he let the attackers use his laptop to access your databases? The key is REDUCING the threat. If 99.99% of the attackers out there are not skilled enough or motivated enough to get through your security, are you "secure"?
And also to recognize that no system is perfect--there will always be the cantankerous guy who is inexplicably "invaluable" to the company who thinks that "fereng1" is an uncrackable password, for instance--and to take steps more along the lines of risk mitigation than risk removal.
Crap. I'd better go and change my password.
Actually, he seems to be more clear thought than you.
He's saying "aim for as much security as you can get" not "aim for 100% impregnable", there is no such thing. Even Open BSD isn't impregnable, despite their claims. Nothing is impregnable to a determined and resourceful attacker.
He is correct in saying, "rather than bunkering up, strive to be indigestible to AS many potential predators and parasites as you can"... i.e. he is admitting the one fact of the universe... "there is an exception to every rule, just because you haven't found it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else, in some form.
The arrow through the roof, for those with the intellectual openness to understand the metaphor is an unlikely incident, but if it does happen, what then. Peter is using that concept, to teach those willing to learn/understand, that for a car to be 100% impregnable, it would have to be arrow, bullet, cannon, nuclear weapon, weather and everything proof, including driver and other driver error proof, road proof, etc. However, the COSTS involved, and the final results are out of reach of even the rich, would make for a rather heavy, expensive and CLUMSY vehicle, and judging by risk, the benefits would far outweigh the costs. Its like flu shots. I travel, talk, do meetings, etc. I get sick very rarely, yet I see so many immediately taking "flu vaccines" out of fear that the flu will kill them. I've never had a relative who either died of the flu or had complications. Neither have I known anyone in my personal life who had these complications, and I have associates who have lived in first, second as well as third world scenarios.
Thus, in similar vein, driver training gives better results than building the bullet proof car. Don't surf porn with internet explorer is FAR better advice than installing the latest antispyware, and "don't accept email except in plaintext format" is far better advice than trying to balance a proper load of antivirus (which the user might not allow to update, or might become broken, etc). There have been plenty of virus samples that hijacked the latest Symantec and McAfee antivirus, why? Because they tried to be everything to everyone, and when you over extend your coverage, you end up leaving holes in your defenses.
Properly trained users is like having the original Citizen Militia, not truly powerful, but if properly trained in guerilla warfare and survival, and properly equipped, they can make ANY invading army's life, VERY difficult, to the point where the invading country finds the "host" or "prey" country to be "indigestible."
Nothing is unassailable, but plenty of plants are poisonous to their consumers, so as to make it a known thing that they are indigestible. The one size fits all solution, from antivirus, to security departments, to everything else, is STILL the same age old problem. No risk can be reduced to 0%. But it can be minimized and compensated for. This is what Peter talks about.
Its disappointing, I expected that those frequenting this board would've had the ability to apply metaphors in design. Good book for all to read. The Art of War. Get it bundled with The Prince. Good way to learn how to think.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler