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Microsoft Had Doubts About the 'Vista Capable' Label

Posted by Zonk on from the marketing-will-make-it-all-better dept.

dionysus writes "Last April, Microsoft was sued over its 'Vista Capable' labeling, and in hearing last week, attorneys for the plaintiffs presented evidence that Microsoft employees were skeptical about the 'Vista Capable' marketing. Some of the most damning evidence comes from Microsoft executives: 'Mike Nash, currently a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine." Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."' The judge in the case is currently considering the plaintiffs' request to make it a class-action lawsuit."

31 of 484 comments (clear)

  1. What happens... by gravesb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    when marketing gets primacy over engineers....

    --
    http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
    1. Re:What happens... by omeomi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd go to Ubuntu, but I can't get it up and running either.

      Really? Ubuntu is usually a breeze to install. What doesn't work?

      --
      ZuluPad, the wiki notepad on crack
    2. Re:What happens... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Without some level of marketing, Engineers build products that people simply don't want and/or won't sell.

      --
      Comment of the year
    3. Re:What happens... by Adams4President · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At first I thought this post was meant to be funny (I actually laughed). Certainly, I and most /.ers are capable of doing this. But you can see by that post why Microsoft still has nothing to fear from Linux...even "user-friendly" Ubuntu. "get the latest beta driver"?? "install by hand in text mode"?? "start sshd and do it remotely"?? You might as well ask the typical user to perform brain surgery on himself.

    4. Re:What happens... by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The typical user does not install the OS he uses.

    5. Re:What happens... by ivan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Listen to yourself.

      This is the same crap you have to do to install Windows. It comes up in some low-res crap graphics mode if you're lucky, and then you have to go to nvidia's site, download drivers, acknowledge the HQL deficiency, and hope everything goes well instead of bluescreening.

      If you're *not* lucky (because you own some new laptop) you either have to go with the vendor's "wipe everything" recovery disc, or go through a complicated process to embed the driver you need into a CD image before installing.

      Linux has been easier to install than Windows for ages now. For 99% of users, the process required to get these drivers is two clicks and now FUD. In the cases where you do have to jump through some hoops due to an exotic hardware configuration, there are practically always equivalent hooops on Windows. People like you either have never jumped through them on Windows because you rarely install, or you're so used to them by now that you don't realize how ridiculous they sound.

      Oh, and don't forget. Hit F6! Quick!

    6. Re:What happens... by skiingyac · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The typical user does not install the *Windows* OS. The typical user buys a computer with Windows pre-loaded, and must install linux OS themselves. If >90% of desktops/laptops come with linux pre-installed, then these type of problems are not important. Right now, they are.

    7. Re:What happens... by Foofoobar · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Um... grassroots isnt marketing. Mysql, Firefox, Linux... none of these had marketing when they got adopted on servers and desktops around the world. Alot of open source software that never had marketing EVER dominates the industry due to grassroots and word of mouth alone. N marketing, no advertising.

      As for nothing being sold, well tell that to everyone who based their products off those projects. Tell that to the manufacturers of servers, tell that to service providers. I'm sure the billions raked in by IBM don't count.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    8. Re:What happens... by Grave · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really? You don't think that Linux would've done substantially better than it has with a $100 million marketing campaign? Because i sure as hell do. Yes, it's done alright, but outside of very technically-inclined computer users, there is effectively 0% market penetration, and it will remain so without vastly increased marketing efforts and better manufacturer support. Look at Apple - if not for the PC vs Mac ads, they'd still be known pretty much only for the iPod/iPhone.

      In other words, I'd say Linux has hit the ceiling for market penetration until such time as there is a concerted marketing effort to push the brand - Linux. Not Red Hat. Not Ubuntu. Not . Distributions confuse the hell out of consumers, and is something that Microsoft is finding resistance on with the various versions of Vista that exist.

      Most OS sales come from OEM installs, but OEMs install what customers ask for. If that weren't the case, fewer of them would be so adamant about continuing to offer XP. Relatively few offer Linux.

    9. Re:What happens... by rizzo320 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In any case, Windows Vista Capable means just that -- it'll come up, but that doesn't mean it'll work well or that 100% of features will work. I don't see what all the fuss is about. For what it's worth (not nearly what I paid for it!) I bought a retail copy of Ultimate, it runs acceptably on my Capable ultra-portable even though the machine performs like a 7 year old desktop, though I did turn off the sidebar.

      Hold on, your kidding right? How was anyone supposed to know what Windows Vista Capable meant before Vista was actually released? Microsoft started letting hardware makers throw this silly marketing scheme out there several months before Vista was officially released. So Yes, I would expect that "Windows Vista Capable" would mean that all of Vista works on this computer that I am purchasing. We're talking about new, on the shelf, at the store, computers here- not some one or two year old computer that someone already owns, and is looking to upgrade to Vista. If the OEM and Microsoft can't tell you what hardware Vista would work on fully, then who can?

      Of course someone could make the argument that purchaser of the computer should have waited until Vista was released to be sure. Well then, why even bother with this "Windows Vista Capable" marketing campaign before Vista's full RTM?

      Listen, the whole thing was a scam by the OEM's and Microsoft to kick up PC sales at the time of the marketing campaign. Sales were sluggish, customers were holding of on hardware purchases until Vista was released, and the OEM's were not too happy with the Vista delay, which was hurting their bottom line. So now they've been caught in their lie, some folks will get fired, and they'll settle out of court.

      But please don't shrug this off like its not a big deal. It was deliberately misleading on a scale we haven't seen before in terms of Windows marketing.

    10. Re:What happens... by Runefox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First of all, Windows has only recently gotten a GUI setup. When you go to install XP, you're greeted with... Text-based setup, on a very drab blue/gray scheme in a low resolution, which looks very ominous. Most of the time, even this is too much for typical users, since it's unfamiliar, looks nothing like what they're used to seeing, and has no mouse, nor buttons to click. I know I sound condescending, but nobody is taught these days to use the keyboard to prompt things along, even if it is on the screen.

      The alternative setup CD for Ubuntu is actually pretty much the same as the XP install, except it asks you more questions that (hopefully) you should know, like the language of your keyboard, the time zone, and so on. Partitioning is basically the same as the Windows-based version at a basic level, and more powerful if you want to get into that. It doesn't ask you what kernel version you want, or if you want to compile certain modules or anything of that nature. It's basic, standard stuff that the GUI installer asks anyway, except in that ominous text-based format that XP seems to have been so successful with. There are only a few occasions where the LiveCD fails to begin with, so it's pretty much not an issue.

      And what about when Windows is installed? You usually don't find much driver support. In fact, you'll be lucky if your NIC gets picked up to begin with, and if you don't have a driver CD, that means you're in trouble. For a typical user, this is appalling. I actually deal with this sort of thing a lot; "I reinstalled Windows and now my Internet doesn't work", and "I reinstalled Windows, but now I can't play any music", that sort of thing. Even somewhat knowledgeable users sometimes have no idea what a driver is or if they actually need one. Will Windows try to pick off the drivers automatically? Not really. Driver support in Windows XP is basically at a perpetual 2001 level, and probably will stay that way. If it's not picked up to begin with, not only will it not work, but it won't tell you what to look for, either. "PCI Device" in reference to a sound card or motherboard chipset device isn't helpful.

      In Ubuntu, it's actually absurdly easy to figure out what's in the system, and get it installed once the system's running. Most of the time, the core hardware is picked up, which includes the NIC, and from there, at least you have a fighting chance. Use lspci or a GUI-based hardware information tool (provided in Ubuntu), and you know precisely what to look for. If there are no free drivers for a piece of hardware, but there exists a non-free driver, Ubuntu will ask you to if you want to install it, and then it does the work for you. Very rarely do you need to go fooling around with beta drivers, and no end user should have to install sshd to get their system up and running.

      Linux has problems like any other OS; They simply lie in different areas. If you can't get X up and running, then you have a terminal to work with, where a technically-minded/Linux user can guide you through troubleshooting the issue. If GDI fails in a big way in Windows, it's a bluescreen and a reboot, resulting in a boot loop which Safe Mode may or may not be able to bypass.

      No, it's not user friendly, but neither is Windows, or any kind of troubleshooting. Hell, if Windows were user friendly, I'd be out of work.

      --
      Screw the rules, I have green hair!
  2. A $2100 email machine? by RetroRichie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Uh, no. What you've got is a $2100 PC that runs just dandy with Windows XP. You know, what you were using before Vista slowed it to a crawl. These guys are buffoons.

    1. Re:A $2100 email machine? by CFTM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And that's the sound of the point that the VP was attempting to make flying over your head.

  3. Vista = dogfooding? by WolfTheWerewolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Perhaps they should have forced it upon employees for more "real-world" testing first?

    1. Re:Vista = dogfooding? by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You know something? I bet they did.

      But Microsoft have a reputation for not only encouraging their developers to run the latest and greatest version, but also giving them the best hardware with which to do it.

      I wonder how many developers actually had easy access to a laptop with less than 1GB of RAM to run Vista on, let alone tried it.

      Wild speculation, so mod me how you like.

  4. How interesting.. by moogied · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Putting "Vista Capable" on a machine is much like saying E85 capable on GM trucks.. while it may indeed be able to use it, no one in there right mind ever should..

    --
    So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
  5. Another class action by KlomDark · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm curious how long until a class action suit fires up over all the companies out there selling 64bit machines with 32bit versions of Vista. That's complete shit. Why even sell a 64bit machine if they're going to hobble it to 32 bit operation?

    Imagine buying a 12 cylinder Lamborghini, getting it home, and then realizing it's only firing on 6 cylinders.

    1. Re:Another class action by postbigbang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The 4-banger Honda engine would last longer, cost less to repair if it did break, and get you better mileage, and get you up to speed in normal traffic situations most of the time.

      The day of the upgrade is waning, and for good reason: no real value, just a bit of eye candy and some cheap thrills..

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  6. Re:I like Microsoft direction. by plague3106 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Did you even read the summary? The MS exec's first thought was of the customers. Good grief.

  7. Re:I like Microsoft direction. by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Did you even read the summary? The MS exec's first thought was of the customers. Good grief.

    Actually, it was their first thought after they got bitten personally by the botch-up, but IMHO not during design or at any stage before release.

    If the end-using customer is their first thought, then please explain DRM.

    /P

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  8. Too many editions! by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How many versions of the same system do you really need? Having created over six versions of the same operating system, Microsoft should have been aware that there would be confusion. Are people in the company so oblivious to the "Keep it Simple" approach? Generally a desktop and a server edition should suffice, and anything being marked a 'ready' should be indicating the expected experience and not the rationed experience.

    A computer allowing me to experience 10% of what the new OS can provide me, is not ready in any shape or form. Games labelling gets this right, why shouldn't hardware? Are we dealing with crooks or incompetence?

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  9. You're dealing with incompetent crooks. by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Are we dealing with crooks or incompetence? I'd say it's a little bit of the former, and a metric shitload of the latter. Factor in the SNAFU Principle, and you've got a recipe for instant epic failure. Chances are that the people who actually work for a living told management that "Vista Capable" was bullshit, but management didn't believe it until they saw for themselves. By then, of course, it was too late.
    --

    I write sci-fi for metalheads

  10. Re:Is it wrong that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Yeah. I bought my 2 gigs of RAM for, you know, actually simulating things as opposed to ... whatever vista does. Yes, I could buy more memory, though I'd have to up it all to 2gb sticks, but in that case I'd rather use my FOUR gigs of ram for simulating. ;-) I don't see the plus side to vista here.

    I'll stick with ubuntu or when I need it for some invariably stupid reason, Windows XP.

  11. Re:I like Microsoft direction. by macdaddy357 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Microsoft argued that it provided detailed information on the sticker program and that it was the customers' fault for not educating themselves before purchasing their new computers."... Microsoft should know that 98% of the computer-owning public knows nothing about computers except that they need one for work, and the kids need one for school. Instead, they have proven that they are out of touch. Every version since Windows 95 has forgotten the user at every turn. Taking people's icons away and forcing them to use the start menu confuses users. Changing the names and locations of things with every new version so people have to learn all over again is an ordeal. It's not only windows. Internet Explorer 7 took away "History" unless you want to clutter up your screen with an explorer bar. Where did the history pull-down go. Parents want to check up on where their kids have been surfing. Why the hell would they take a feature away? It boggles the mind! Microsoft has made computing more complicated and confusing for the average user at every turn when they need to make it simpler. It is a shame they are still in business.

    --
    How ya like dat?
  12. Re:Or maybe.. by SQLGuru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Certainly. Yahoo was valued at $20 something by the market. Then MS made a bid for them for $30 per share. The market seized the opportunity and the stock went up to the bid. That, my friend, is true value to all of those who sold their stock @ the bid price.

    Layne

  13. Re:Editions by Prophet+of+Nixon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Neither of the Home editions has the rather important group policy snap-in to set up a local security policy. Neither will even allow it to be run if you get the file. Can't speak for the other editions, though I've heard its in Ultimate. Have been considering upgrading to Ultimate (I've the disc) if it will let me do a delta install and not format everything.

  14. Re:I like Microsoft direction. by trolltalk.com · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the end-using customer is their first thought, then please explain DRM.

    Simple - their customers are the studios, MPAA, RIAA, etc. They want to sell them the idea of using MicrosoftWindowsDRM on their products.

    What - you thought you were Microsofts' customer? You're a consumer, not a customer. And you'll consume whatever they feed you, until you get sick of it and either die or switch.

    --
    Kevin Smith on Prince
  15. Please no, not a Class Action by PingXao · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Class Actions are almost worthless unless you're one of the lawyers involved. You get a $10 discount coupon you can use on your next purchase from Microsoft. The lawyers pocket millions. I wish there was a better way of dealing with rogue corporations' transgressions.

  16. There's Your Problem by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Engineers like to qualify stuff like that. It's very Dilbert-esque. The correct answer is "NO!" You have to keep in mind who you're talking to.

    This may help; when they ask you will it run in that configuration, assume that if you say yes they're going to make you use it in that configuration. Then give your answer. It's a lot easier to just tell them "NO!" then.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  17. Internal Emails by Workaphobia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not that this comment will be read so late in the game, but it irks me that internal Microsoft emails were revealed through the legal system. All companies look like crap when you make their most candid discussions public. I find it unsettling that these messages can be used against them in such a way, because it would seem to lead us to a state where marketing BS invades internal technical discussions, creating a sort of double-think / no-privacy situation in the workplace. I just think that private thoughts deserve protection.

    Flame on.

    --
    Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
  18. Re:The threat of email subpoena by cc_pirate · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's why you have IN PERSON MEETINGS! And no minutes other than tasks and attendees. I guess you can have decisions in the minutes as well... Face it, if this stuff doesn't get written down, it doesn't get subpoena'd.

    --

    "There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur