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X Power Tools

stoolpigeon writes "The X Window System has been around for over twenty years and is the display system for an incredibly wide range of operating systems. With the number of Linux users growing, there are more people working with X than ever before. Most modern desktop environments provide user friendly interfaces that make modifying X rather simple. There is not a need to dig into config files and settings as in the past. For those environments without such tools or for the user who loves to dig deep into their environment, this book can be a simple way to understand how X works and how to tweak it in any number of ways. If you want things that 'just work' and have no interest in digging around below the surface this book is not for you. On the other hand, if you think the best thing to do with a shiny new tool is to take it apart, well "X Power Tools" by Chris Tyler may be just for you." Read on for the rest of JR's thoughts on this book. X Power Tools author Chris Tyler pages 254 publisher O'Reilly Media, Inc. rating 9/10 reviewer JR Peck ISBN 0-596-10195-3 summary The author, Chris Tyler, is a professor at Seneca College in Toronto as well as a programmer and Linux user. His first book published by O'Reilly was "Fedora Linux: A Complete Guide to Red Hat's Community Distribution", published in 2006. He cites the growth in X users, combined with active development and the lack of existing books that address X as the motivation for writing "X Power Tools."

X is the windowing system on a wide range of Unix and Unix like systems. Chris is obviously most familiar with Linux and so the material is heavily Linux oriented. This is most apparent when the book deals with Session Managers, Desktop Environments and Window Managers. The material focuses on Gnome, KDE and Xfce and their associated components in regards to X. For the Linux user this could be a valuable resource.

When I've had issues in working with X locally and over the network, I've found that while what I need is available on the web, getting just what I need can be very labor intensive at times. Usually just what I want is spread across tutorials, on-line man pages and forum posts. Sorting out what applies to my situation can be especially difficult when I'm not even sure just how things work for my setup. Chris makes this kind of guessing unnecessary and provides the locations and function of key files. He also spells out how the most important files and tools can be best used.

For the sysadmin on another platform, these Linux specific sections are not going to be much help. Most of the book though, deals with X itself. I've already loaned my copy to one of our AIX admins more than once and I think he plans on picking up a copy of his own.

When Gnome and KDE provide an interface for modifying or customizing X functionality, the book gives at least the name of the program and sometimes screen shots and explanations of how the tool works. This is always after an illustration of how to get the job done with the tools that are a part of X itself. From fonts to keyboard layouts, multi-display to kiosks, everything required is laid out in straight forward terms.

For me, as a Fedora user, this means that having read this book I approach my work environment with a new level of confidence. Behaviors that used to puzzle me, now make complete sense. Quirks that bothered me, no longer need to be tolerated as I know have the tools to get things working just the way I want, rather than using defaults.

The book has just come out, so it was being written before the release of KDE 4. I've looked through the documentation and I don't think any of the changes to programs like KDM or KWin make the information in the book out of date. In fact, according to the KWin release notes, when discussing KWins new compositing support, "...manual configuration of X may be required for proper results..." So if you are a KDE user that likes to live on the edge, this book may come in handy.

O'Reilly says that their "Power Tool" books are comprised of a series of stand-alone articles that are cross-referenced to one another. To be honest, it didn't feel much different from reading any other tech book. Topics flowed naturally and the articles are analogous to sections that divide up chapters in other books. One nice navigation feature is that page numbers are on the bottom of the pages while chapter and article numbers are at the top corner in a decimal notations. For example at the top of page 58 there is a grey square containing the number 3.13 which means that it is the 13th article in chapter 3.

The book has a thorough index. It also comes with 45 days free access to an electronic version through O'Reilly Safari.

For me the only real weakness of the book is that I would like to have seen more information on working with X on Unix. When reference is made to specific implementation of X it is almost always in regards to Linux. I wouldn't want to lose that, but I think a mixed environment of Unix, Linux and Windows is more the rule than the exception today. It would be more work to include other operating systems, but it would have also made the book much more valuable.

All tech books face the danger of becoming quickly useless as progress marches forward. X is actively being developed, but at the same time, looking back on its history I think this book will be useful for sysadmin and user for some time to come.

You can purchase X Power Tools from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

219 comments

  1. So when do we get its successor? by Anpheus · · Score: 0, Troll

    I know X is entrenched and all, but really, aren't we all fed up with this dinosaur? A new window system might be a good thing for Linux as a whole.

    1. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Explain yourself! My 77 GMC runs great while my 2007 Benz is not running!

    2. Re:So when do we get its successor? by cbart387 · · Score: 1

      Then make one ;)

      --
      Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    3. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Derek+Loev · · Score: 1

      I entirely agree. It's obvious that it most be fairly hard to code for or else getting it to work wouldn't be so difficult.
      Even on Ubuntu 7.10, it's still a beast to deal with. I don't have hardware ordered specifically with Linux in mind, I need Linux to work without that.

    4. Re:So when do we get its successor? by jrothwell97 · · Score: 1

      But X is speedy and X works. And there'd need to be an awful lot of programs ported to get X's successor to catch on.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    5. Re:So when do we get its successor? by BSAtHome · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Can you provide some code? You are free to make a new graphics interface. X has been around for a long time and it will stay for a long time yet. It has proven itself despite of its shortcomings. I don't think that a complete replacement is a good idea. The best thing for X that yet has to happen is it running as an unpriveledged user, but that is hard with the hardware so close to the software.

    6. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anpheus · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wasn't aware a lot of programs interfaced directly with X. I'm sure there are some that for whatever reason feel like they must interact with X directly, but wouldn't say, X2 or X+ or whatever with GTK/QT4 be sufficient to run -almost everything-?

    7. Re:So when do we get its successor? by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What are you smoking?

      You don't install ANY OS on hardware without considering driver support.

      MacOS is no different. Various forms of Windows are no different.

      Linux and X are not alone in this.

      That said, I've never gotten all the whining. I've put no more
      effort into buying machines and vidcards that I would have done
      to avoid a lemon under Windows. Yet I've managed to avoid problems.

      Slackware 96 was not pretty but it wasn't painful in this regard at all.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:So when do we get its successor? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can you provide some code? You are free to make a new graphics interface. Look, I know this is the standard FOSS fanboy answer to any criticisms about anything and everything, but it's gotten tiresome - it doesn't actually address the criticism at all. It's on the same level of relevance as if you'd responded "Oh, yeah? Well your momma's fat!"

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    9. Re:So when do we get its successor? by mhall119 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Look, I know this is the standard FOSS fanboy answer to any criticisms about anything and everything, but it's gotten tiresome - it doesn't actually address the criticism at all. The implication is that if you know enough about X to be able to say it is bad, then surely you know enough to offer an improvement.
      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    10. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best thing for X that yet has to happen is it running as an unpriveledged user, but that is hard with the hardware so close to the software.

      So separate the driver layer from the transport layer from the application layer. Why is it acceptable for these all to be mashed together in one program?

      I can't think of any other network protocol in the Unix world that has its own in-process hardware drivers. Can you?

      Put the drivers in kernel modules, where drivers belong, and let X do what it does best: security and networking. This isn't even a full-on Tannenbaum microkernel. This is just common sense. Not even monolithic kernel advocates seem to promote this kind of architecture-gumbo anywhere else.
    11. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Simon+(S2) · · Score: 1

      but really, aren't we all fed up with this dinosaur?

      Why? What's wrong? We have hw acceleration, we can use it over the network, we have nice toolkits that work on top of it, it has good documentation and nvidia, ati and intel write drivers for it. Why change it?

      --
      I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
    12. Re:So when do we get its successor? by mhall119 · · Score: 1

      Because then it wouldn't work on BSD or Solaris, which is also why X has it's own Keyboard and Mouse drivers, because not all kernels that X was designed for provided APIs for them.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    13. Re:So when do we get its successor? by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 1

      In 1997 I'd have agreed with you, but today X is working better than ever. Only problems I run into are: configuring it still sucks; and, exporting to a remote machine is still slow as crap compared to Windows Remote Desktop*. There are other things that could make it even better like detaching and reattaching windows to different screens, but personally I'd just be happy if it was as snappy over the network as Windows.

      *My experience with NX has not been that great, both from a use and configuration standpoint. And it's not standard with X.

    14. Re:So when do we get its successor? by jmorris42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Look, I know this is the standard FOSS fanboy answer to any criticisms about anything and everything,
      > but it's gotten tiresome - it doesn't actually address the criticism at all.

      Actually it is more response than the original poster deserved. Go reread it, he complaimed that it is old. No specific complaint, no suggested solution.

      And you fail to understand the FOSS idea. The line between users and developers doesn't exist. If you don't like it you are free to fix it. Iven if you aren't a uber coder who can write GL drivers in their sleep you can at least learn enough to make good guggestions, bug reports or hell, contribute some better documentation. If you can't code or at least understand the system enough to make constructive criticisms and suggestions for improvements then you really should just shut up and accept what you get because talking from ignorance just reduces the signal to noise and makes it harder for those who do have a clue to get on with improving the stuff you use.

      10 to one both you and the original poster don't even realize GNOME and KDE aren't even part of X. That sort of ignorance is what makes every thread about X devolve into silly rants about GUI usability and brings out the Mac fanbois. X itself is just fine now and with some of the current improvements working their way towards mainstream it will only get better.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    15. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Tiber · · Score: 1

      X is not a window system, it's a display system.

      KDE is a windowing system, as is GNOME.

    16. Re:So when do we get its successor? by siride · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's an invalid argument. I may know enough to say my car isn't working (e.g., it won't start), but I certainly don't know enough to fix it.

    17. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're pretty new to this, eh?
      It's not so obvious anymore on todays multicore, multi-GHz numbercrunchers with gigs of RAM, but X11 is a lot of things, but _not_ speedy. They didn't even try to make it speedy - the network transparency layer (among other things) creates so much overhead it was a pain to use X11 until relatively recently.
      When XP was first released its windowing system actually felt more responsive than X11 did on the hardware from that time.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    18. Re:So when do we get its successor? by doti · · Score: 1

      I agree with that, but you haven't even told us what's wrong with X, or how another system could be better.

      --
      factor 966971: 966971
    19. Re:So when do we get its successor? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative
      Actually, that's how Solaris already works. The graphics drivers are compiled into the kernel for workstation builds. The Xsun server just hooks into those drivers.

      From Alan Coopersmith of Sun Microsystems:

      Xsun though is only an Xserver, with no device specific knowledge - the
      drivers for various graphics devices for Xsun come from 3 other groups
      at Sun - SPARC Graphics, x86 Platform Drivers, and Sun Ray.
    20. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      That's an invalid argument. X works. In this case, you might know your car isn't getting forty miles per gallon like a hybrid, and don't know enough to convert it into one. Neither do most people. So just shut the fuck up unless you've got something to offer. It'd be awesome if someone would convert my car into a hybrid for me. It isn't likely to fucking happen--it might if enough FOSS people got together and came up with something though.

    21. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why don't you double how much you're paying for the X Window System ($0) and see if anybody is interested in writing a replacement for that kind of money?

      If you didn't pay for it and you don't like it you have two options:
      1) Write something better. Surely you can because you know what you don't like about the old one, right?
      2) Shut the fuck up, grow a set, and realize that the open source community is not your personal bitch.

      You are exactly the reason why I gave up writing open source software. You had criticisms about my software, software that I designed and wrote for what I needed it for. I told you that I wasn't going to change it and you went on a total tirade about how I was supposed to fix this for you and how this software was yours. Bullshit. If you don't like it, fix it. If you can't fix it, there are programmers that specialize in open source software that would be more than happy to make a little scratch on the side to code something up for you. If you're too cheap to do that, then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

    22. Re:So when do we get its successor? by cortana · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bad analogy. What the original poster said would be more like "I know the internal combustion engine is entrenched and all, aren't we fed up with this dinosaur? ..."

    23. Re:So when do we get its successor? by harry666t · · Score: 1

      False analogy.

      When X doesn't start you simply tweak the configuration.

      We're talking about possible serious flaws in the design of the protocol, APIs, etc.

    24. Re:So when do we get its successor? by misleb · · Score: 1

      Put the drivers in kernel modules, where drivers belong, and let X do what it does best: security and networking. This isn't even a full-on Tannenbaum microkernel. This is just common sense. Not even monolithic kernel advocates seem to promote this kind of architecture-gumbo anywhere else.


      Didn't Windows at some point suffer from having all the graphics stuff running in kernel mode? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like loading a multi-megabyte module into your kernel. The size of the NVIDIA closed source kernel module alone is scary enough. Now, take a lot of functionality out of X and put it in there and you have a real monstrosity.

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    25. Re:So when do we get its successor? by cortana · · Score: 1

      What you are describing is already been worked on. Soon, at least on Linux, Xorg will no longer need to run as root.

    26. Re:So when do we get its successor? by abaddononion · · Score: 1

      I think this is a great post, in spite of the backlash against it. I support your cause, and fully agree. If I had mod points, I'd give them to you rather than posting here.

      The general defense I keep seeing for X seems to be that people "aren't criticizing it properly". As if to say that just having problems with X isnt sufficient if you don't fully understand and can vocalize on those problems in a tech-savvy manner. In the past year, I don't know how many X problems I've run into, *most* of them being related to the fact that X itself is single-threaded, and there's a whole can of worms related to that when something minor in X happens to go wrong. There are certain issues that can be triggered in either KDE or Gnome (since X is beneath both of them), and some of them are fairly crippling. Maybe most users don't have the issues with X that I do. I find that very easy to believe, since I tend to be one of those users who manages to scrape even the most insignificant bugs out of any software.

      I would think open-source users would be more akin to a certain way of thinking. For example, a piece of software isnt good "just because" it's entrenched. If that's the case, then that just creates a whole boatload of defenses for the proprietary softwares like Microsoft. X has issues, it's fairly limited as far as a display protocol goes, unless I'm misremembering it is the *only* display manager between Linux, Apple, and Microsoft systems that is single-threaded... and the main reason it's not replaced is that it's such a very daunting task. Now I'm not saying that's not a good reason (I certainly don't have the gall to try to replace X), but it's a very poor defense of it.

    27. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why?

      Seriously, why? I'm not aware of any fundamental flaws in X that would necessitate scraping it in its entirety and replacing it by something else. It does what it's supposed to do, and I don't see anything in your post that explains why you'd disagree - the only reason you seem to be putting forward is that after a while, programs should be scraped and replaced by default, just because.

      I don't think that's a good reason.

    28. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >That's an invalid argument. I may know enough to say my car isn't working (e.g., it won't start), but I certainly don't know enough to fix it.

      Well, that's too bad for you. But your argument is only valid in a general sense if pretty much no cars start in the world.

      X works for virtually everyone for virtually everything they want to do. Except in some cases, it feels like the wrong solution. A bit like how a MAC truck will do just about anything you would ever need to do with a vehicle (a few special exceptions exist), but you're tired of building special trailers to suit your solutions and you'd like it to fit in a normal parking space for once.

    29. Re:So when do we get its successor? by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      You mean loosing 5 years (and a manpower needed elsewhere) on a rewrite, while in the meantime Xorg will be improved to the point that a rewrite is pointless? (we can't just drop X protocol compatibility or all existing applications will stop working).

    30. Re:So when do we get its successor? by hummassa · · Score: 1

      Even porting only Qt4 (so your new operating environment could run KDE4.0 apps but not Gnome apps) would take a whole team of programmers some years.
      That said, Y and Berlin _do_ exist, and are very pretty... why don't take a shot at it?

      --
      It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    31. Re:So when do we get its successor? by canuck57 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know X is entrenched and all, but really, aren't we all fed up with this dinosaur? A new window system might be a good thing for Linux as a whole.

      Why does every new kid on the block insist you have to replace it to be any good without knowing how much effort it takes to get a GUI working right?

      X-Windows is also 1984 from MIT as Wiki on X-Windows, which makes it almost 24 years old. And components of it likely existed before it's 1984 debut. It has had a lot of years to become polished. For without it Linux would likely still have some proprietary GUI that can't be used with other hosts. That is, I enjoy login into Linux, login to a different vendor of Linux or perhaps a BSD, AIX or Solaris....and it works!

      I will admit, having used and programmed X-Windows from almost year one, it was initially heavy, had alignment bugs and was no where near like today's X. It was in fact ahead of it's time but now that the graphics hardware has enough juice it is in it's prime. A portable inter-operable network/GUI.

      And just so you don't think this fossil is stodgy, GTK is a fantastic Motif replacement. You should try it, real nice.

      Don't try to make Linux look like Vista, Vista will not last. And X-Windows will outlast Bill Gates himself. Bills empire still can't do portable Windows without outside help. Perhaps spend your time with that new X-Windows desktop for Linux, the one with the cube.

    32. Re:So when do we get its successor? by ettlz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When XP was first released its windowing system actually felt more responsive than X11 did on the hardware from that time.

      This is what you get when most of your windowing system is run in the kernel: the low-level drawing and management routines are just a syscall away. Plus I believe the Windows window system is multithreaded (or, at least, much of the stuff runs in the applications' threads when they make windowing calls). X.org, on the other hand, is single-threaded and runs as a user-space process, so there's also context switching overhead. [All that "Ha-ha, NT runs its video drivers in the kernel" stuff is misleading; the criticism wasn't that the hardware support was in the kernel, which is where it should be, it was that a load of management stuff was there too.]

      Personally I'd like to see a lot change in the structure of X11. I'm not fond of the way the 2D stuff appears to work by acquiring privileged maps to areas of physical memory, effectively subverting the kernel. I'd much rather it were all built using DRI. In-kernel modules would be responsible for mediating access to hardware registers. The heavy lifting and config part of the drivers should be done in user-space (much like MesaGL) with a minimal multi-threaded graphics server. X11 would be run as an application on top of this to provide network/legacy support, etc. But then again I'm not an X.org developer and they probably know better.

    33. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Nice troll, first post too. 9/10.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    34. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Let me put it this way. If we were to come up with say, a new open standard for a window system API, and all the associated drivers necessary for it, etc., and we were to submit that to ISO, we would call it something like the Open Window Standard or somesuch. X.Org would rename themselves to "Open X.Org." X is as much a defacto standard as .doc, but that doesn't make it good. And anyone whose ever had X break on them can testify to the fact that it's just not an elegant solution for how to do things. It's inefficient, it's monolithic, it doesn't play well with multiple processors, it has all these flaws. I didn't think I had to bring those things up: this is Slashdot, we know the flaws are there. Dammit, we should be complaining about them shouldn't we?

      Since when does Open Source mean we have to be content with what we have and bitch at people who say what we have isn't better than the competition? I love Open Source, I'd eat, drink and sleep with Open Source. My toaster should be Open Source. And in some ways it's really, spectacularly advanced. Server applications for example, top-notch. But for desktop users we have a monolithic window system that breaks, all the damn time, and has fallen so far behind the competition that it's only recently become usable and with an enormous investment of effort into hacking 3d rendering into it.

      I shouldn't need to say those things though, as I said, this is Slashdot. People here know what the problems with X are, dammit, I'm announcing my dissatisfaction. People reply with "You don't like it, code your own," ok. Let's start. Let's make a development program for a replacement for X that will correctly process the hooks for a few popular toolkits (QT,GTK+) and work from there. If we can get QT4 and GTK+2 working on something -other- than X, that will be major progress.

    35. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Look, I know this is the standard FOSS fanboy answer to any criticisms about anything and everything, but it's gotten tiresome - it doesn't actually address the criticism at all. It's on the same level of relevance as if you'd responded "Oh, yeah? Well your momma's fat!"

      But the original post didn't have any criticisms to answer! All he said was X was a dinosaur. No specific complaints of any kind. So what better response to a content-free question than a content-free answer?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    36. Re:So when do we get its successor? by ettlz · · Score: 1

      Windows XP has the GDI and Window Manager in the Executive. A lot would probably argue that this, and the most computationally intensive parts of the drivers should be in user-space, leaving the kernel to handle the protection of the low-level hardware interfaces.

    37. Re:So when do we get its successor? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "Look, I know this is the standard FOSS fanboy answer to any criticisms about anything and everything, but it's gotten tiresome - it doesn't actually address the criticism at all."

      And you think complaining about it is somehow going to magically solve the problem? Problems are solved because *someone* creates a solution, not because people whine about it. If everybody complains and nobody actually does anything about it, then the problem will continue to exist forever.

      "It's on the same level of relevance as if you'd responded "Oh, yeah? Well your momma's fat!"

      No it isn't. Such a comparison is utterly ridiculous.

    38. Re:So when do we get its successor? by chromatic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the network transparency layer (among other things) creates so much overhead it was a pain to use X11 until relatively recently.

      Have you measured the cost of network transparency, and would you be willing to debate Jim Gettys and Keith Packard about that being one of the bottlenecks? (This is one of the persistent myths of X11.)

    39. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1


      KDE is not a windowing system, neither is GNOME.
      For KDE kwin and plasma are the windowing systems, for GNOME it's metacity and compiz.
      <\nitpick>

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    40. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Let me put it this way. If we were to come up with say, a new open standard for a window system API, and all the associated drivers necessary for it, etc., and we were to submit that to ISO, we would call it something like the Open Window Standard or somesuch. X.Org would rename themselves to "Open X.Org." X is as much a defacto standard as .doc, but that doesn't make it good.

      Was there a point to all that?

      And anyone whose ever had X break on them can testify to the fact that it's just not an elegant solution for how to do things.

      If X is breaking on you all the time, you're doing something wrong. X is very stable.

      What specific problems have you had?

      It's inefficient

      It's at least as fast as the competition.

      it's monolithic,

      So? How does that affect the user?

      it doesn't play well with multiple processors,

      It works just fine on my dual core system.

      I didn't think I had to bring those things up: this is Slashdot, we know the flaws are there.

      No we don't, we use X every day, and we quite like it thank you very much. These days saying that X is a dinosaur sounds a lot like saying that BSD is dying.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    41. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole point of X was to separate the graphics from the application. Anything with an input device and a graphical output device can be an X server, and anything that wants to talk to that API can be a client, without having to know much about the hardware. The transport layer is TCP/IP; are you seriously suggesting changing that to something else? No wonder you posted AC -- you're a moron.

    42. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's good to look at why one wants to replace something, and not replace it if it's not broken.

      But really, X *is* a dinosaur. The drawing operations it has to support were neat when we had 1-bit displays, but aren't that useful (or accelerated) on modern hardware. Its imaging model is completely different from modern printers and page definition languages. Antialiasing and transparency (at the window level) is obviously an afterthought, and resolution-independence was an early goal that nobody really got working. Font support is only so-so. Color calibration is basically nonexistant. It has a bunch of individual features which run great, but not with each other, like OpenGL and video and Xinerama. Compositing support is still kind of flakey. Network support can be useful but X11 screwed up the design. The Unix Haters' Handbook has a whole chapter of other issues.

      And sure, we could (and probably will, eventually) fix each of these things. But X11 seems to never drop its old baggage, even when nobody's using it. So when somebody wants to fix fonts or colors, they'll do that by adding new extensions (which have to be installed in the server, yay), and now we'll have N+1 ways to do these things, and still most people won't use the good new way. Anybody who's done software testing can tell you about the reliability of N orthogonal features; it's no wonder compositing + video + OpenGL + Xinerama doesn't work.

      There's something to be said for wiping the slate clean and saying "OK, it's 2008 and we now know how to do compositing and acceleration and video and fonts and colors, so we're going to throw out all the dead ends we've created in the past 25 years, and start fresh". (You can even run X11 inside whatever graphics system we create, like X11.app on the Mac.)

      Writing a network protocol for a graphics system isn't fundamentally that hard to do. There's no black magic here. Linux users claim to know better than anybody the problems with a monoculture. And yet, X11 is so monstrous that there's really only room for one implementation; there simply aren't enough graphics geeks who are willing to put up with the pain of maintenance to support several. So when Xorg forked, it was a Really Big Deal. It shouldn't be! Note that the programs that open-source does best are those that we have a million of (like text editors, or chat clients, or MP3 players), and those that we always complain about are the big monsters that nobody is crazy enough to write a new implementation of (X11, OOo, Moz). I do not believe this is a coincidence.

      I would really like to have a graphics system that is simple enough that I (with only a 4-year degree in computer science) can understand, and which we're using because it's the best design we can come up with, not because it's the only free windowing system we could find in 1984.

    43. Re:So when do we get its successor? by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      configuring it still sucks

      That's less and less the case. The whole of my xorg.conf was written automatically without my participation. The only thing I was asked was the layout of my keyboard.

      Sucking was when you had to invoke the help of the mightier gods in order to protect you from having your monitor burst in flames and/or emit very acute noises when you were trying modelines and sync rates...

    44. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      it doesn't actually address the criticism at all.

      What criticism? The complaint didn't describe anything actually wrong with X. I see no problem with the "put up or shut up" response when the other person hasn't even bothered to describe what problems they think need to be fixed.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    45. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's an invalid argument. I may know enough to say my car isn't working (e.g., it won't start), but I certainly don't know enough to fix it.

      Ok. "X won't start" is a valid criticism of (a particular implementation of) X. So is "X is too hard to write a toolkit for because API A is is very cumbersome", or "X implementation I is slower than Y doing operation Q.".

      However, most of the "criticism" of X is from users that are parroting back what they've heard secondhand, or are conflating the desktop environment or other application with the windowing system, and have no appreciation for what a windowing system actually is.

    46. Re:So when do we get its successor? by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      What `issues' would you describe as crippling?

      In what way being multithreaded would help? Do you know or are you simply repeating something you heard?

    47. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Plaid+Phantom · · Score: 1

      So there are multi-billion-dollar corporations working to keep X11 so entrenched as to ensure profits for said corporations?

      --
      All comments are properties and trademarks of the voices in my head. Not like I'm gonna claim them.
    48. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      No idea who they are.
      It's kind of a moot point anyways, like I said, today's computers are so fast the overhead of X probably doesn't matter. It's just that I spent some time in 2000 looking at what X events come up during a normal session - there were a lot. A lot more than there were on Windows IIRC.
      Though the tone of your post suggests there's some other major bottleneck, besides the network layer - care to share?

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    49. Re:So when do we get its successor? by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      Good suggestions. Fortunately that's exactly what Xorg/DRI/DRM people are working on. Future graphic system on linux will have full drivers in kernel, rootless X, and all that with unified 2D+3D acceleration. They also want to get rid of a VT switch in the future and allow for multiple accelerated instances of X, but also non-X acelerated apps.

      With Gallium a userspace acceleration will get a performance boost and cleaner architecture.

    50. Re:So when do we get its successor? by debatem1 · · Score: 1

      lol man that brings back memories... remember the sizzling noise it used to make if you screwed up your vsync?
      good times, good times.

    51. Re:So when do we get its successor? by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Informative

      Let me put it this way. If we were to come up with say, a new open standard for a window system API, and all the associated drivers necessary for it, etc., and we were to submit that to ISO, we would call it something like the Open Window Standard or somesuch. X.Org would rename themselves to "Open X.Org." X is as much a defacto standard as .doc, but that doesn't make it good. And anyone whose ever had X break on them can testify to the fact that it's just not an elegant solution for how to do things. It's inefficient, it's monolithic, it doesn't play well with multiple processors, it has all these flaws. I didn't think I had to bring those things up: this is Slashdot, we know the flaws are there. Dammit, we should be complaining about them shouldn't we?

      Actually, here in slashdot what we get is lots of people, much as yourself, mentioning flaws. But very few people have any real idea of what they are talking and about one third (being generous!) of the posters are probably among those that think that KDE is a window manager, that QT and GTK are part of X, and that have some very mystical and completely misguided understanding of how the SELECTION protocol works.

      There are flaws. This is obvious from reading the mailing lists of the X developers. But your blowing hot air about `flaws' in no way is comparable to any positive action with regards to their solution---let alone their identification.

      But for desktop users we have a monolithic window system that breaks, all the damn time, and has fallen so far behind the competition that it's only recently become usable and with an enormous investment of effort into hacking 3d rendering into it.

      When does it break, exactly, and all that frequently, for desktop users? In what way does its being monolithic affect anyone apart from its own developers? Are you really not aware of the reasons why accelerated 3d rendering goes at somewhat glacial speed?

      I shouldn't need to say those things though, as I said, this is Slashdot. People here know what the problems with X are, dammit, I'm announcing my dissatisfaction. People reply with "You don't like it, code your own," ok. Let's start. Let's make a development program for a replacement for X that will correctly process the hooks for a few popular toolkits (QT,GTK+) and work from there.

      Ah. I see. You are going to be in charge of the management of such a project... And I imagine you'll want to participate in the critique part, too! We will contact you.

      If we can get QT4 and GTK+2 working on something -other- than X, that will be major progress.

      Both work on top of things other than X, on top of several different things in fact.

    52. Re:So when do we get its successor? by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The general defense I keep seeing for X seems to be that people "aren't criticizing it properly". As if to say that just having problems with X isnt sufficient if you don't fully understand and can vocalize on those problems in a tech-savvy manner.

      Not being psychic, if the best vocalization of your problem is "I have a problem", but refuse to say any more detail at all than that, then yes, you can't be helped, sorry. You appear to be inserting words into the OP's mouth beyond that -- the OP didn't even say they had a problem! They merely said X is old, and had no actual criticism to offer at all. Being old isn't in and of itself a problem, but it's the only issue that poster appeared to have. You don't have to be tech-savvy to say you have a problem, and to try to explain as best you can what the problem is, but OP didn't even get as far as saying they had a problem, much less even offer a clue as to what the problem might be.

      If the problem is bugs, then the bugs need to be fixed. If the problem is inherent in the design, then the design needs to be redone. But if the problem is "it's over X years old and running software over X years old is uncool" then the software doesn't need fixing, the user's attiude needs fixing. Since OP appears to have no problems other than age (no complaint was made other than the age of the software), then frankly his comment should have been modded as the obvious troll that it is. Even if it's true that X actually needs fixing or replacing, that doesn't justify pointless trolling.

      I think this is a great post, in spite of the backlash against it. I support your cause, and fully agree. If I had mod points, I'd give them to you rather than posting here.

      It's a sad commentary on the rampant abuse of the mod system that you admit you'd give him mod points merely because you agree with him, rather than objectively mod him down, not because you agree or disagree, but because it was a bad, content-less post. Your own post was actually interesting and informative of what the actual issues are that people have with X (unlike the post you're replying to, which was in fact nothing but a troll). Mod points shouldn't be handed out because you support a cause, they should be handed out because the post is a good one, whether you agree with it not. (Or negative points given if it's a bad post, whether you agree with it or not.)

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    53. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Intron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What you mean is that the Xfree86 and xorg implementations of the X server for the PC are single-threaded. I don't think there is anything in the standard that prevents X servers in general from being written differently. X clients, like browsers or window managers, are not single threaded.

      The problems of being single-threaded are simple and easy to find: something hanging causes all updates to stop. The bugs that you get in multi-threaded code are generally much worse: locking problems and concurrency issues can be very hard to track down.

      Access to the hardware has to be serialized anyway, so its not clear that multi-threading the server is going to result in any major improvement. It would speed up any rendering that is done in software and could be parallelized, but would not help X operations that are a single call to the graphics card.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    54. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Tiber · · Score: 1

      wait wait wait

      your computer is in a house
      the house's windows are made of glass
      therefor only things made of glass are window managers, such as glassfish

      I wouldn't want a window made of plasma!

    55. Re:So when do we get its successor? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Why?
      On my version of Ubuntu that I just installed it is working just fine and is pretty fast.
      Most of the problems with X have to do with the current implementation and not with X.
      Improving X is what needs to be done.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    56. Re:So when do we get its successor? by dangitman · · Score: 0, Troll

      If you can't code or at least understand the system enough to make constructive criticisms and suggestions for improvements then you really should just shut up and accept what you get because talking from ignorance just reduces the signal to noise and makes it harder for those who do have a clue to get on with improving the stuff you use.

      ... and people wonder why Linux adoption remains so low.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    57. Re:So when do we get its successor? by ADRA · · Score: 2, Informative

      Quite a bit of XP's 2d drawing functions are accelerated using video card driver supports. All the blitting, etc.. which may be supported in Linux drivers was pretty much stock in every well used Windows graphics driver since 2k.

      You ever run into the issue that Firefox scrolling is sooo slow? Its probably because the scrolling routines aren't being 2d accelerated like they should be.

      Putting too much in user space might seem like a good compromise, but depending on how often you context switch to achieve this separation, the trade offs could be quite inhibitive. I'm not much of a driver programmer and I've never even looked at a graphics driver implementation, but given the cursory glance at the ATI released register mappings, I imagine that the setup and maintenance of said buffers requires quite a bit of hand-holding.

      --
      Bye!
    58. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      I have been using X since 1990 and it has *always* been fast enough for my purposes, except when used over a slow network link. I wish that they had improved the network performance of X long ago, but I have read recently about improvements that supposedly make X over slow links useable, which is great.

      Aside from that, X has *always* been fast enough for me, to the extent that I have never considered it to be significantly different from, say, Windows on the same platform.

      I'm talking about computers all the way from Digital DECStation 4100s (which had the processing equivalent of maybe a 486 sx 33), to Pentium 100s, AMD 233s, Athlons, Pentium Ms, desktop, notebooks, Sun SparcStations, you name it.

      I don't know what it is you are doing, but your assertion that X has been perceptibly slow until modern hardware of the last couple of years made it fast enough flies in the face of over *two decades* of my own experience.

      X may not be fast enough for high performance games or 3d stuff, that may very well be true, but considering the number of games available on X platforms, that is hardly important, and only affects a small number of applications and a small number of people who use them. And it's my understanding that lots of improvements have been made recently with respect to gaming in X, which is not surprising since nobody really wanted to play games in X until recently - we always used to just Do Real Work. Not that I have anything against games, I'm just saying that this aspect of the windowing system didn't get much focus until recently because the typical user of X didn't need it until recently. I do remember playing XEvil about 10 years ago, that was fun, but hardly a game that would stress any windowing system.

    59. Re:So when do we get its successor? by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Ok, I don't think that the line between users and developers is entirely non-existant in most FOSS. In general you have:

      1) Core maintainers (aka project leaders, steering committee members, etc)
      2) Committers
      3) Users/implementors/developers. They may all contribute in their own ways (bug reports, documentation, patches)

      One of the key issues in FOSS community management is helping people contribute optimally. Even discussion about missing features should be encouraged because even if the original poster can't code, someone else who can may read the discussion thread.

      Users, developers, etc. are not entirely separate in FOSS communities but they are not entirely the same either.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    60. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      They didn't even try to make it speedy - the network transparency layer (among other things) creates so much overhead it was a pain to use X11 until relatively recently.

      That's not true. Locally, X communicates through unix domain sockets which aren't any slower than any other form of interprocess communication.

      When XP was first released its windowing system actually felt more responsive than X11 did on the hardware from that time.

      Also not true. A light weight window manager (I used icewm at the time) has always out performed XP on any hardware I've tried. You're probably conflating GUI toolkit bloat (which is a real problem) with the performance of the X server.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    61. Re:So when do we get its successor? by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 1

      I've not had X successfully autoconfigure on any Macintosh I've ever owned, save for an LC-III running NetBSD. On "normal" PCs, I've had much better success lately, but specifically I was referring to the mystery that is configuring the xorg.conf by hand.

    62. Re:So when do we get its successor? by clem · · Score: 1

      Have you tried getting out of the car and getting back in?

      --
      Your courageous and selfless spelling corrections have made me a better person.
    63. Re:So when do we get its successor? by MenTaLguY · · Score: 1

      I used to be involved with Berlin. Berlin was re-renamed back to Fresco and has been dead since 2003/2004.

      --

      DNA just wants to be free...
    64. Re:So when do we get its successor? by dezert_fox · · Score: 1

      X11 tunneling over SSH would be sorely missed.

    65. Re:So when do we get its successor? by lahvak · · Score: 1

      X is as much a defacto standard as .doc,...

      Er, no. Unlike .doc, the X11 is fully documented, and there exist multiple implementations, both free and commercial, both open and closed source. If you want to write another implementation, you don't have to reverse engineer anything, you just read the documentation. It does not have an official stamp of approval of some international standard body, but it is open and documented. ...this is Slashdot, we know the flaws are there...

      That may be true, except that we don't seem to agree exactly on what the flaws are. If you read the posts here, the few posts that actually list specific flaws seem to each come up with a different list.

      Let's start. Let's make a development program for a replacement for X that will correctly process the hooks for a few popular toolkits (QT,GTK+) and work from there...

      Anybody knows what happened to the Berlin project? Their web page seems to be gone.

      --
      AccountKiller
    66. Re:So when do we get its successor? by LarryRiedel · · Score: 1

      I would really like to have a graphics system that is simple enough that I (with only a 4-year degree in computer science) can understand, and which we're using because it's the best design we can come up with, not because it's the only free windowing system we could find in 1984.

      DirectFB?

    67. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know X is entrenched and all, but really, aren't we all fed up with this dinosaur? A new window system might be a good thing for Linux as a whole. Agreed. I'd love to be able to plug in a monitor to my laptop and have it instantly ready to go as a second head like my Mac does. Instead, with Linux (Ubuntu Gutsy) I get nothing. To actually get it work I have to turn the laptop off, plug in the monitor, start it up, have X crash a few times and drop to a console (what's so "Bulletproof" about that?), reconfigure xorg.conf by hand since that "screen and graphics" program isn't worth a shit, and then finally get a dual head mostly working. Come on, this isn't 1994. Downright pathetic.
    68. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The general defense I keep seeing for X seems to be that people "aren't criticizing it properly". As if to say that just having problems with X isnt sufficient if you don't fully understand and can vocalize on those problems in a tech-savvy manner.

      I think you'll find this is true in general. If you can't explain your problems to the people who you want to fix them, they won't be fixed.

      In the past year, I don't know how many X problems I've run into

      Well could you describe just one of them? It should be easy if you've had so many.

      *most* of them being related to the fact that X itself is single-threaded

      How do you know?

      There are certain issues that can be triggered in either KDE or Gnome (since X is beneath both of them), and some of them are fairly crippling.

      Again, such as?

      Maybe most users don't have the issues with X that I do. I find that very easy to believe, since I tend to be one of those users who manages to scrape even the most insignificant bugs out of any software.

      Sounds like you like to fuck around with things you don't understand. Don't do that.

      I would think open-source users would be more akin to a certain way of thinking. For example, a piece of software isnt good "just because" it's entrenched.

      I don't think anyone here is saying that. In fact, I think you, and the OP are saying the opposite: X is bad "just because" it's entrenched.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    69. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      That's not true. Locally, X communicates through unix domain sockets which aren't any slower than any other form of interprocess communication.
      I wasn't talking about the network performance - that of course is negligible when there's no real network, when all communication is local.
      What I meant was the whole layer of code that provide this network transparency, which every X event must pass through no matter what.

      Also not true. A light weight window manager (I used icewm at the time) has always out performed XP on any hardware I've tried. You're probably conflating GUI toolkit bloat (which is a real problem) with the performance of the X server.
      It's kind of hard to compare windowing systems when you use something as lightweight as IceWM on one and the windows shell on the other. Assuming things like IceWM generate a fewer events, I tried to push both equally by using GNOME.
      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    70. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but that totally reads like 'get of my lawn'. My old man thought GEM was plenty responsive too...
      I assume you actually used DECWindows on that DECStation, and doesn't SUN have it's own implementation of X too? I think it's safe to assume both Digital and SUN made some effort to make their windowing systems responsive - maybe with a lightweight window manager, maybe by cutting back on features, I don't know.
      After using computers for such a long time as it seems you have, I think it's pretty natural to become more tolerant concerning responsiveness. I experienced that when I was still using my 233 MHz AMD in 2003 - which still seemed to be an okay computer even though everyone else was using >1GHz CPUs. Since then my upgrade cycles got shorter though..

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    71. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No idea who they are.

      I find it hard to believe you are remotely familiar with the internals of X without knowing who they are.

      I spent some time in 2000 looking at what X events come up during a normal session - there were a lot. A lot more than there were on Windows IIRC.

      Now you're just making shit up. Yeah, I would imagine an X server has quite a few more X events than a non-X windowing system.

      Though the tone of your post suggests there's some other major bottleneck

      No, the tone of his post suggests that it is a very well-known fact amongst people who actually know WTF they are talking about that the network layer for X is a tiny, tiny fraction of the resources used in normal operation, so it's an idiotic idea to work on minimising it further, let alone give it as a reason why X is slow.

    72. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      It might be, it might not. Now if we could just pin down whether we have a problem or a whinge... we might just get somewhere, or we might not. The change X.org needs is a name change. I mean, Apple has Carbon or something, Windows has Aero... OSS has... Unknown Designation? I propose we drop the period for the next major release thus we have Xorg (pronunciation: \zORg\) ; which EVERYONE would agree that it sounds better than X.org (pronunciation: \'ecKss\ \dot\ \org\) or (pronunciation: \'ecKss\)

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    73. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      "You're pretty new to this eh?"

      "Sorry but that totally reads like 'get of [sic] my lawn'. My old man thought GEM was plenty responsive too..."

      Why do you feel a need to trivialize the comments of the people that you respond to in this way? Do you have some kind of deep-seated insecurity about your viewpoint that requires that you disregard others' points by dismissing them using phrases like the above? Do you think there is any good reason to dismiss the personal opinions of others in this way when your posts are nothing but opinions themselves?

    74. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neurojab · · Score: 1

      aren't we all fed up with this dinosaur?
      Not really, no. As a user and application developer, X works great for me. It provides the functionality the user needs, and application developers is largely isolated from low-level X APIs by their GUI toolkit (GTK+, QT, etc).

      A new window system might be a good thing for Linux as a whole.
      I'm not sure about that. Inventing something new without first establishing what is really wrong with the existing product (and for whatever reason, can't be fixed) would be a waste of time. This is why all the attempts at creating a better window system than X on Linux/Unix have failed; they don't have a driving reason for their existence, or a killer app that would ensure adoption.

    75. Re:So when do we get its successor? by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Funny fact: my NX remote is noticeably faster than RDP, at least twice as fast despite the fact that my Linux box is halfway around the world.

      Despite that, I strongly dislike X. I feel it takes the Unix philosophy too far outside its comfort zone. What is X anyway ? What does X do by itself that's not delegated to the window manager, the decorator, the QT libs etc... How is X any different from that generic GUI framework I built in a thousand lines of Pascal and assembler back in the 90's before Windows tried to be its own operating system ?

      I find X very painful to program, thanks to a zillion libs that all love to fight over the same castrated resources. It's just not pleasant at all, and doesn't lend itself to elegant GUI design.

      I think what gets me the most is how poorly various programs interoperate, there's no consistency at all. Pretty much all I can bring myself to do with X is launch a bunch of terminals and a web browser - it's all easier to do on a command line than through the various half-broken GUIs everyone loves to abandon on SourceForge.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    76. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      No we don't, we use X every day, and we quite like it thank you very much. These days saying that X is a dinosaur sounds a lot like saying that BSD is dying.
      damn it! don't give them ammunition!
      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    77. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      I don't pretend to possess much in the way of social skills. You're critisism is noted, and for the first one totally valid. So, if you're still reading this jrothwell97, sorry.
      That other comment, emphasizing two decades of experience, does remind me a little of an old man ranting. It wasn't meant as an insult though, I was.. well, joking I guess. Seems it didn't work, probably was a lousy way to start a reply with, so sorry to you too.
      About my posts being opinions, well, yeah, of course they are. But I did try to be constructive in this discussion, even though the things you quoted say otherwise.
      Well, guess I broke it. Was fun while it lasted though.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    78. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Berlin apparently became Fresco http://www.fresco.org/ and haven't had any visible development since 2004. Last release was 2003.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    79. Re:So when do we get its successor? by hummassa · · Score: 1

      I used to be involved with Berlin. Berlin was re-renamed back to Fresco and has been dead since 2003/2004. So is the Y Window System (that also produced some beautiful alpha-stage things).
      But the code is out there :-)
      --
      It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    80. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've been using X since 1998 and it has *never* been fast enough for my purposes, even when used entirely on the local host.

      Even on my recently installed Ubuntu 7.10. You can move windows around and watch them wobble, which is nice. But if you minimise and then restore something like firefox and thunderbird, it takes a second or so to completely redraw itself.

      In fact, if you open this discussion say, in fifteen tabs on firefox in an X environment, the whole system will grind to a halt. Do the same on any Windows or Mac OS from 2000 onwards and it'll be fine. When moving from my puny Mac mini onto my relatively powerful ubuntu machine, I suddenly have to be really careful not to do anything that might slow the system down.

      X may not be fast enough for high performance games or 3d stuff, that may very well be true, but considering the number of games available on X platforms, that is hardly important.

      Err... cause and effect?

    81. Re:So when do we get its successor? by dangitman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even discussion about missing features should be encouraged because even if the original poster can't code, someone else who can may read the discussion thread.

      Absolutely. That's why I find the standard response of "well fix it yourself" to be so boorish and irritating. Criticisms should not be dismissed simply because they come from someone who's not a programmer. I think you put it very eloquently when you talk about helping people to contribute.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    82. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      And what evidence do you have that any of the problems that you are seeing are related to X?

      I open discussions in many tabs all the time and my system doesn't grind to a halt.

      I suspect the problem is more likely the tremendous amount of bells, whistles, and cruft that go into a "modern" Linux desktop implementation. I still run twm and no Enlightenment, K Desktop, Gnome Desktop, or any of the countless 'servers', 'D-Bus clients', or any of the reams and reams of associated stuff.

      I think that the bloated nature of Linux desktop implementations is more likely the cause of your problems than your X server. I can say with fair certainty that if you keep your desktop trim and light, as I do, that performance is very good. X doesn't enter into it; any system that was running as much crap as modern desktop systems do will have poor performance.

      An example is my father-in-law's computers. Any of them. He always installs the latest version of Windows, and every single little task bar applet, browser plug-in, desktop quick-launch software, etc, etc, that he can get his hands on. I can't quite understand his thinking, except to assume that he really likes the idea of having as much software as he can, just in case someday he needs something. His computers are always much more powerful than mine and yet take 3 - 5 minutes to boot Windows, and when they are up and running, suffer from all of the problems you have ascribed to X; clicking on windows will show noticeable redraw latency, trying to open a pull down menu will cause a noticeable pause, etc.

      It's not the underlying window system that's the problem, it's how much 'junk' (for lack of a better term, although certainly one man's junk is another man's treasure) you have gumming up the works. X and Windows are the same in this respect.

    83. Re:So when do we get its successor? by SL+Baur · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not that it's difficult, they do a pretty good job now, it's that noone has come up with anything better. A decade ago, some guys got together with something called GGI which was intended to be a non-networking X11 replacement. Its main distinguishing feature was that it would be closely tied to the kernel, much like the graphics in Microsoft Windows is tied. Nothing much came of it.

      The biggest problem with X11 has always been looks. Always. The core stuff is ugly, difficult to code with, ugly, not integrated into a single desktop environment and did I mention that it's ugly? The KDE guys fixed all of that, though X11 has been pretty decent though not always integrated since X11R4.

      My biggest like about X11 is how easy it is to network with. Your server runs locally, your windows can run natively on any machine in the world. Outstanding!

      It's not broken, so it really doesn't need any fixing or rewriting for the sake of rewriting and I like my KDE/X11/RedHat workstation at work more than I like my MacBook Pro.

    84. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not offended, although I purposely tried to make myself sound that way in my post to incite your response. So I guess two can play at that game huh ... :)

      As a final point, something I mentioned in another post I made just a minute ago to another poster in this thread ... I think that a large part of the perceived inadequacy of X is due to the nature of modern desktop implementations. I'm really going to show what an old man I am here, but I *still* run twm, one of the original X window managers, and I have it 'tuned' using a configuration file that does things like remove window title bars (they waste space don't you know), and binding most windowing operations to keypresses (or key/mouse combinations). I don't run any kind of 'start' menu bar, I just type the command name of any program I want to run into an xterm. While my desktop is in no way representative of the reality of modern desktops, it does demonstrate, I think, that performance is to a large degree dependent upon the complexity of the desktop, much more so than the underlying graphics subsystem. All X programs have always run speedily for me, because there is so little running on my system and contending for CPU and video card cycles. I have no fancy effects going on. No D-Bus servers, or clients, no big and complex window managers like the K window manager or whatever one Gnome uses. It's all streamlined and simple. And as a result, I get to see the performance of X when it's not bogged down with 'crap', and honestly, it's pretty good.

      I mentioned in my other post about how my father-in-law's approach to computers is to buy (or build, actually he likes to build his own systems, to his credit) the fastest stuff available, and the absolutely *load* it down with the newest version of Windows and every task bar application, quick-launcher, drag-and-drop utility, browser toolbar, etc, that he possibly can. It is absolutely no joke when I say that he, for example, will have two or three browser toolbars installed at once (who needs BOTH Yahoo and Google toolbar at the same time? You end up with the top 1/3 of every browser window being covered in little buttons and doodads that are totally redundant and useless). And he'll have 2 or 3 drag-and-drop CD-burning applications running from the taskbar at the same time. On top of that, every little task bar icon known to mankind; there'll be literally 15 - 20 of them in there. His computer, despite being way faster than anything I ever owned, boots in like 5 minutes, and once booted, every windowing operation is sluggish; redraws can be watched as they occur. Opening windows or pulling up the Start menu or clicking on a drop-down menu literally takes several seconds. It is insane.

      This is an example of how the exact same poor performance that you are ascribing to X, can be achieved on the supposedly superior (from a performance perspective) Windows "directly in the kernel" graphical system.

      I installed Linux on a USB drive and booted his same computer up with it, and it was so fast and snappy in comparison to his Windows XP installation, it was amazing.

      So my point is, that really the slowness is almost certainly caused by the amount of work being loaded onto the graphical system, not by the underlying performance of the system itself. And Windows and X are no different in this respect.

    85. Re:So when do we get its successor? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      There are lots of programs that use Xlib and no bloatware libraries at all.

    86. Re:So when do we get its successor? by severoon · · Score: 1

      You don't install ANY OS on hardware without considering driver support.
      You're right about that. Most people don't install any OS on hardware period. They buy the computer with Windows pre-installed, as I presume the grandparent poster did. There is simply no other explanation for his comment, as anyone that's ever tried to install any OS on any system knows what you say here is true.
      --
      but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
    87. Re:So when do we get its successor? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      So you're saying it is only fair to compare X to a bloated pig by making it a bloated pig??

    88. Re:So when do we get its successor? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      It worked really well the last time I installed X on a Macintosh. Of course, it was an SE/30 running NetBSD on the built in display. It worked quite well with minimal configuration.

    89. Re:So when do we get its successor? by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately in this thread though the OP (possibly a troll) simply said that we need something else because X is old.

      I am quite happy to disregard that criticism as invalid, not because it came from someone who can't code but because it isn't useful in building better systems. So you are left with one troll being countered by a problematic but all-to-common response.

      A better response would have been:

      "Then get involved. Help make X better, build an alternative, or something else. These things require participation (including but not limited to coding) so...."

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    90. Re:So when do we get its successor? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      And here I thought the Window Manager was the guy who yells at the fry cooks and consoles the waitresses when they're sent out with buttered toast on the plate of a customer who explicitly specified dry toast.

      Then again, I was once the 'toast cook' at a place where I 'managed the window' and it was the opposite of that. You scampered to keep the toast coming in the right format for each order from the middle, with waitresses screaming at you for buttered toast, etc. and fry cooks shoving plates full of food at you.

    91. Re:So when do we get its successor? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      (we can't just drop X protocol compatibility or all existing applications will stop working).

      Microsoft wishes we would. In fact, if we started shitcanning everything with each major release number, Microsoft would like it very much. They wouldn't mind an even playing field for once.

    92. Re:So when do we get its successor? by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Sure. While we're at it, I know "Hello World!" is entrenched and all, but really, aren't we all fed up with this dinosaur? A new introductory programming example might be a good thing for Linux as a whole.

    93. Re:So when do we get its successor? by krmt · · Score: 1

      It's not at all clear that we could gain anything by starting over, and in fact we'd probably lose quite a bit. Yes, there are old methods to do things, but they are being deprecated or replaced outright. XCB replacing Xlib is a particularly good example, as is the replacement of server-side fonts with client-side. Essentially these things aren't real issues any more, so they don't take up any real mental bandwidth when you need to work on X. The drawing model and things that the UNIX Hater's Handbook talks about have been pretty well addressed over the last half decade. Cairo is the official replacement for the old drawing model that X provided, and Cairo works really well and is getting better all the time. The problems you're talking about, like compositing well and having video work well with OpenGL, are not trivial problems, and they are often unsolved. We don't really know how to accelerate all sorts of rendering operations (glyph rendering is proving to be particularly difficult at the moment, for example) and for things like video in a composited opengl context it's highly unlikely that the code would get written any faster or cleaner if you were starting from scratch rather than reworking the existing codebase to make this necessarily complicated thing happen. You're also ignoring many of the problems that X solves remarkably well. It's an incredibly modular design that allows for extensibility with simultaneous backwards compatibility. It actually does a very good job of managing windows. Finally, it does a ton of the dirty work like knowing how to read EDID blocks, parse a configuration file, or allow drivers to execute x86-mode BIOS calls on non-x86 hardware. All of this can be unpleasant code to write where you'd gain little or nothing by rewriting it. So yeah, a cleaner design would be nice, but a vast amount of code has been fixed by deletion from the X server, to the point where the size of the server actually has gone down between some releases. So things are improving, and while it's slow, at least it's moving at a visible pace these days. Because of this, I'm really not convinced that starting over would get you more than the joy of reimplementing solutions to hard problems.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    94. Re:So when do we get its successor? by krmt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      (Argh, why did I not use preview? Sorry, posted again with formatting!)

      It's not at all clear that we could gain anything by starting over, and in fact we'd probably lose quite a bit. Yes, there are old methods to do things, but they are being deprecated or replaced outright. XCB replacing Xlib is a particularly good example, as is the replacement of server-side fonts with client-side. Essentially these things aren't real issues any more, so they don't take up any real mental bandwidth when you need to work on X.

      The drawing model and things that the UNIX Hater's Handbook talks about have been pretty well addressed over the last half decade. Cairo is the official replacement for the old drawing model that X provided, and Cairo works really well and is getting better all the time.

      The problems you're talking about, like compositing well and having video work well with OpenGL, are not trivial problems, and they are often unsolved. We don't really know how to accelerate all sorts of rendering operations (glyph rendering is proving to be particularly difficult at the moment, for example) and for things like video in a composited opengl context it's highly unlikely that the code would get written any faster or cleaner if you were starting from scratch rather than reworking the existing codebase to make this necessarily complicated thing happen.

      You're also ignoring many of the problems that X solves remarkably well. It's an incredibly modular design that allows for extensibility with simultaneous backwards compatibility. It actually does a very good job of managing windows. Finally, it does a ton of the dirty work like knowing how to read EDID blocks, parse a configuration file, or allow drivers to execute x86-mode BIOS calls on non-x86 hardware. All of this can be unpleasant code to write where you'd gain little or nothing by rewriting it.

      So yeah, a cleaner design would be nice, but a vast amount of code has been fixed by deletion from the X server, to the point where the size of the server actually has gone down between some releases. So things are improving, and while it's slow, at least it's moving at a visible pace these days. Because of this, I'm really not convinced that starting over would get you more than the joy of reimplementing solutions to hard problems.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    95. Re:So when do we get its successor? by sciurus0 · · Score: 1

      You should be able to do this with xrandr. Don't blame X, blame Ubuntu for not making this obvious.

    96. Re:So when do we get its successor? by binford2k · · Score: 1

      If you don't know enough to know who JG and KP are then you don't know enough to debate X's strengths and weaknesses.

    97. Re:So when do we get its successor? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately in this thread though the OP (possibly a troll) simply said that we need something else because X is old

      Well, I don't see what was trollish about the OP. I just thought that a smart crowd like slashdot would have known the problems with X, and not needed specific elaboration - I saw it simply as a general comment. I also doubt that the complaint was simply because it is old - the term "dinosaur" has several levels of meaning. If it were old but problem-free, then I don't think it would have been called that, it would have been called "mature" or "tried and true".

      Again, as someone else has observed, it seems the true meaning of "troll" has been lost and now simply means somebody who goes against popular opinion.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    98. Re:So when do we get its successor? by scotch · · Score: 1

      I ran a X11 CAD program over the network (10M/s) back in about 1991 and it was completely usable. What do you mean by "relatively recently"?

      --
      XML causes global warming.
    99. Re:So when do we get its successor? by scotch · · Score: 1

      Hmm, actually it was about 1992-93. Memory goes with age.

      --
      XML causes global warming.
    100. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should really look at the Y Window System. The project is long dead, but the website is still up: http://www.y-windows.org/faq.html. IIRC, it was written by an undergrad student as a thesis. He also wrote a long document explaining how worked and covered the design decisions in a very in-depth manner. The document may no longer be available, however.

      I don't know if it's possible to get it running. I tried for a little while and made some progress on Debian, but I was never able to produce anything like the screen shot on the website. It's interesting to look into, though.

    101. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I respectfully disagree, still.

      I thought "deprecated" usually implies a plan to remove completely; I haven't been watching too carefully, but I haven't seen any outright pruning of obsolete features from X11. XCB is maybe a small improvement over Xlib, but from up here, they both look like low-level C libraries which I'll never touch. All the complexity of X11 is still there, only with different calls.

      The things in the UHH are fundamental architectural problems. The X11 client-server architecture and the extension mechanism are basically the same as they were 10 years ago. ICCCM still sucks, though now we have bandaid called EWMH covering some of the holes in the ICCCM bandaid (though neither one seems completely implemented, even in Metacity).

      Cairo is a great improvement, but layering it over a 25-year-old design makes it less fun than it could have been. I've had to fight X11 problems when writing Cairo code, so you can't say it doesn't matter.

      I can't say I know a lot about combining compositing and video and OpenGL, but I can see that Apple basically built their own, and they've solved these problems. That's not to say that X11 can't solve these, or that it'd be solved if we dropped X11, but I am suspicious. And how many potential contributors could have helped with these issues but were scared off by X11?

      I think you're overestimating how well X solves these problems. X doesn't look very modular to me: every time I've tried to do something new with it (USB, tablets, composite, hotplug, and so on), it failed miserably for a long time; I've still never gotten my tablet to work 100%. And when something goes wrong in X, you usually have to reboot; to upgrade, you usually need to at least restart the server. That doesn't strike me as "modular" or "solves remarkably well".

      No, it doesn't do a very good job of managing windows; it doesn't do *any* window management. You have to get a separate program called a "window manager" to do that for you. Each one sucks in its own way. Then Havoc wrote Metacity, and I thought I'd never have to switch from one god-awful window manager to another, and life was good ... until Compiz arrived, and I found out that I'd have to switch from Metacity to some god-awful window manager to take full advantage of it. Thankfully Compiz isn't really usable here yet, but the writing's on the wall.

      I'm sure there are unpleasant things my X server does that will need to get done by any graphics system. If the codebase is at all readable, these things should be fairly easy to pull out and re-use with a new system. (Well, except for the config file parser. That just deserves to die.)

      To say simply that "a cleaner design would be nice" misses the point. As Dijkstra pointed out, beauty is our business! If it didn't offend every last one of my sensibilities, I'd love to hack on a Linux graphics system. Or look at it this way: when Mozilla was "freed" in 1998, they got gobs of developers rushing to help out -- even though most of the original codebase got dumped. The name "Mozilla" was a digital stone soup. I know it looks good to be moving forward, but how fast would it be moving forward if it was a modern, properly-factored architecture with 10 times as many good developers?

      I know you shouldn't throw out working code on a whim, and that every programmer wants to, but this isn't a whim. We've had to work with X for close to 25 years, and it's sucked for all 15 I've been using it. There's no dishonor in admitting that a graphics system designed for 1984 graphics hardware no longer serves our needs. We've rewritten text editors for less, and text has changed a lot less than graphics since then.

    102. Re:So when do we get its successor? by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      X may not be fast enough for high performance games or 3d stuff, that may very well be true. As I recall, the last time I was playing 3D games (back in 2000 or so), the linux versions popular 3D games (Quake III Arena, for eg) were maybe 2% slower in FPS scores for the NVIDIA drivers compared to their windows counterparts.

      No idea whether things have improved since then or not, but it suggests that the kernel-level 3D rendering was working OK ...

    103. Re:So when do we get its successor? by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      What are you smoking?

      You don't install ANY OS on hardware without considering driver support.

      True, but I just install Ubuntu and it recognizes all my hardware, so far, anyway, automatically.
    104. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      Think so? So because I don't know who made a piece of software, I can't possibly know what's wrong with it?

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    105. Re:So when do we get its successor? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      Have you ever actually read the "criticisms"? If you did, then you'd notice that almost each and every time, people only say "fix it yourself" if the criticism isn't constructive.

      99.9% of the X "criticisms" are some form of "X is old and sucks and must die". They add no value whatsoever other than potentially making people angry. What part of their "criticisms" is constructive? I'm a programmer, I have the ability to improve X, and I might even do it for free. But every time I read "criticisms" like this I fail to understand what exactly it is that they're criticizing. As a programmer, not only do I have no idea what I can do after reading their comments, their comments generate some kind of anger and frustration because of the way they're written.

      So what can I do? I suppose I can spend 3000 hours into studying X, only to find out that the "criticizers" are wrong. I would have wasted 3000 hours of my life for the sake of some anonymous Slashdotter that I don't even know!

      You say the "fix it yourself" responses are boorish and irritating. That is a very selfish thing to say. Do you think the "X sucks and must die" comments, which contain absolutely no constructive information, aren't equally, if not more, boorish and irritating? So for some reason you are allowed to bore and irritate the programmers - who give you their work for free -, but not vice versa?

    106. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      Sure. When comparing the performance of two windowing systems, both should be equally stressed. Otherwise a comparison would be kind of meaningless.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    107. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      That seems to explain why you're X environment is more responsive than Windows is.
      It makes sense that a barebones environment like the one you described will generate a lot less load on the windowing system than the Windows shell would.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    108. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      That is pretty impressive. Do you remember the name of that CAD program? They must have had really clever ways to cope with that lack of bandwidth.

      With relatively recently I meant up to a few years ago, when GHz CPUs became common. I compared it to Window XP's windowing system - others already gave a good explanation of why it was faster.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    109. Re:So when do we get its successor? by scotch · · Score: 1

      ACAD - (not autocad) - a program commissioned and used by the US DoD.

      --
      XML causes global warming.
    110. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      This is nonsense and follows "if its old its bad" fallacy. Actually X performs quite well, is mature and stable. Quite frankly, trying to switch to something else would lead to a code base that is far more immature and buggy and which has not been as well refined as X has. Sometimes. something is well designed enough that it does not make sense to replace it, this is the case with X. Its clean network client design makes it highly flexible, and it has an extension mechanism that has allowed it to keep up with changing technology requirements. Your views on X are based on nothing more than this idea that if its old its bad, but often it is the case that older software is often better, less buggy and more mature, which is the case with X. I see no reason why X cannot continue to fulfill all of the desktop needs for the forseeable future in a completely backwards and forwards compatable manner.

    111. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      I disagree with this. Totally. X is not really all that bad or difficult to manage, and it is not a dinosaur. It is the case sometiems that trying to replace something as mature and refined as X with something that is bound to be flaky, buggy and immature would likely create more problems than it claims to solve. When something just works well it does not make sense to replace it. X has been improved with extensions and that is how it can continue to be improved, in a backwards compatable manner. And do we really want 100 different window systems? X being the main standard is actually a good thing. This allows me to know that I can always run an application on an X server, no matter how old the app is, it is supported. X provides a standard interface for the window system. Can you imagine what things would be like if there were 10 different window systems or if some smartass came along and decided to make an incompatable system to fix problems that dont exist with X, or which can be fixed without breaking backward compatability? You would have a dozen different systems, with applications that would run on one and not the other, it would be a nightmare of incompatability. X is actually one of the things that works best on Linux and as far as X itself, i have never had a problem with it. Most problems exist at the driver level, which is not at all actually a part of the X core at all. Work has been done to as well improve X and build new extensions that improve its performance. Anyone who says X is a dinosaur has absolutely no clue what they are talking about and i am GLAD they are not the ones making design and archicture decisions.

    112. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      I agree that X is not at all a fossil and in fact is at the cutting edge of design improvements and technology such as with compiz. Anyone who says X is a fossil does not have the slightest clue what they are talking about and they apparently have been living under a rock for they have not seen compiz and the amazing things it does. X is polished and a mature code base, it has the benefit of backwards compatability as well. ALl of the downsides of trying to replace something so mature and well developed, with something which is likely going to be, with todays coding standards (sloppy, bloated), to consume far more ram, would probabaly end up being slower, which would be immature and filled with bugs, and which would not be backwards compatable, would create far more problems than it can solve. This is the way most new software is today and X by todays standards is pretty darn efficient and uses less resources than most modern programs I have seen. It makes far more sense as well to develop extensions to X to improve it and in this manner we can make it do whatever we need to do and keep it up to date with the times while backwards compatable. This has what has worked now since 1987 when X11 was released. I am glad people who say that X needs to be replaced are not making design decisions because they do not know what they are talking about and their ideas would give us huge problems for something that carries no benefit to what we have now. X can continue to improve and keep up with whatever new demands may arise while keeping the benefits of backwards compatability. As far as X being slow this is an old myth that refuses to die. It is far faster and uses less memory than vista. I have used X successfully on a 486 with 8 mb of ram! Just try that with vista, you wont get far! ANd yet X with compiz is at the cuting edge support more high end graphics features than Vista does. You have everything you want with X, so I dont see why people are trying to bash it!

    113. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should be able to do this with xrandr. Don't blame X, blame Ubuntu for not making this obvious. I blame both. Ubuntu for not doing it right (why couldn't they just have borrowed working code from Fedora, Mandriva, or OpenSUSE?) and X for being so archaic. Yeah, Xorg has made massive progress in the last few years, but it's still far behind modern desktop systems like OS X and Windows -- both of which "just work" when it comes to video.
    114. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do yourself a favour, watch Keith Pacards speech linked in this comment. Keith not only shares your view on X, he actually has done loads to improve the situation.

      X is no longer X, while still remaining X, it's a brave new world out there.

    115. Re:So when do we get its successor? by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Well, a *lot* of software I end up using gets called by that label by people who don't take the time to even try to learn it (LaTeX comes to mind). With X, I generally find that this is done by people who don't understand the capabilities of the software itself (particularly the network-transparent elements).

      My own experience is that X was pretty painful to troubleshoot 10 years ago but is far easier to deal with today. If X is a dinosaur then it is rapidly evolving into a modern bird. I suspect that this is why every (generally well-published) attempt to make a new GUI layer for Linux has not come even close to getting widespread support (and really, it isn't *that* much software to support-- a number of toolkits like GTK, QT, Tk and then leave the other software for the maintainers to port since that gives you enough to be useful).

      This suggests to me that no successor is here because none of the successor attempts offered any compelling advantage over the older software.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    116. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Rudd-O · · Score: 1

      like xosview and xkbevd?

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      Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
    117. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Rudd-O · · Score: 1

      This is BULLSHIT. X locally uses shared memory, not "network transparency". And even through network displays, it's pretty speedy. The main issue has always been a single-thread architecture for event processing, and poorly-accelerated display drivers.

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      Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
    118. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Rudd-O · · Score: 1

      This is inaccurate. If you see windows wobble, then when you minimize those windows, compiz or kwin will maintain the rendered image in RAM, so when you unminimize it, it will first blit to the screen the saved rendered image while re-requesting a redraw from the app in parallel. Now, if you are using a noncompositing window manager, I agree with you -- the app needs to rerender its contents and that is what causes the problem.

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      Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
    119. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Rudd-O · · Score: 1

      The LAYER of code that you are talking about is one function call per operation. INCREDIBLY negligible. With MIT-SHM (shared memory IPC) windowing operations are almost like directly talking to the hardware. It's the HARDWARE DRIVERS that are the bottleneck.

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      Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
    120. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Rudd-O · · Score: 1

      1. multicore
      2. smoother input processing
      3. smoother screen redraws

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      Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
    121. Re:So when do we get its successor? by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      And you know this how, exactly? Have you made experiments which show that multithreading would actually improve this, or have some other real information? In that case, I am absolutely sure the Xorg developers would love to heard from you and our data (and your code, of course!). If, on the other hand, you are saying this because you somehow believe that adding multithreading automagically makes things better, then you are not answering my question.

      Take for example your third point... In what way, exactly, does multithreading help with that, in a context when you have a compositing manager, mediumly sane toolkits, and apps mediumly sanely written so as not to block the gui?

    122. Re:So when do we get its successor? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      1. multicore Irrelevant because processing-intensive tasks are in applications that use multicore already. Graphics cards' internal processing (3D acceleration, compositing) is already multithreaded with multiple rendering pipelines. X server is not a bottleneck.

      2. smoother input processing All input goes through OS drivers in kernel and immediately used to update cursor and send events to applications. Delays in events handling and protocol overhead are negligible when passing tiny amounts of data generated from input, therefore all input latency is an application's problem. If it wasn't, you would see X cursor lagging behind mouse movement, something that never ever happens.

      3. smoother screen redraws XDamage reduces the amount of redrawing, however it has little to do with the fact that X updates windows at the speed of your graphics card when it gets anything from an application. Applications that include massive amount of disk and network I/O in the same process/thread that handles X events are responsible for slow redrawing, not X. All other GUIs behave in exactly the same manner.
      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    123. Re:So when do we get its successor? by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      "Start your own rewrite" is excellent response to a criticism like "X is old and boring, we need something sexy and new".
      Because there isn't a viable rewrite yet (if it was needed, I'm sure that X developers would already be working on it).

    124. Re:So when do we get its successor? by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      No, "deprecated" means that API has to stay there because of compatibility with old programs, but new programms should use new API's (like Cairo or Qt's Arthur, XRender etc.) which solve problems you outlined (antialiasing, printer-compatible rendering model, possibly even color calibration).

      Simply, there is nothing we can do about old programs that use flawed API's except to wait until they are forgotten or ported to new API (or do that job ourselves).

      Xcb - it was meant to fix various Xlib problems (e.g. some latency issues), not to change/replace X protocol. Both are actually helper libs intended to stuff in code commonly used for handling the protocol (so that it's reused instead of being rewritten in each client app).

      Compositing *still* clashes with Xv and everything else. In fact devs have been working to fix that for a year or two. Video memory manager in kernel and new DRI drivers ported to it, new direct rendering interface etc. So you will finally have direct rendering working nice with compositing. Since overlays aren't possible to integrate with 3D engines, Xv will be emulated using texturing (currently this approach suffers from same problem as direct GL rendering).

      Xinerama stuff with all above - I think it also needs new memory manager stuff to be solvable, plus it could benefit from multi-GPU support which is on the TODO list of xorg people (this basically needs VGA arbiter code, but some guys started working on it), then the randr 1.3 should integrate all of Xinerama's features. But even now, the existing randr 1.2 is good if you are satisfied with only one framebuffer.

      The point here is that protocol isn't the problem. Extensions can solve problems with it and apps will start using them if old approach is deprecated. The implementation of X server is. Yes, it's still a huge mess. But that is actually possible to solve withouth abandoning and starting from scratch (and in the new project you still have to provide same compatibility layer, anyway).

    125. Re:So when do we get its successor? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      In Ubuntu, all you have to do is go into the monitor configuration tool and tell it you plugged in a second monitor. It makes you log out and back in, but it does not make you reboot, power off, or any of that stuff. If you want mirroring, the button on your laptop's keyboard should do the trick. It's easier than Windows, but still a bit more work than OSX.

      That said, some funky stuff can happen if you have a less popular laptop. Laptop graphics are still fairly poorly supported. This is true in windows too though, where you're dependent on the manufacturer's display driver which never gets updated unless you're using a major brand (more major than Acer, or Sony).

    126. Re:So when do we get its successor? by binford2k · · Score: 1

      In this case, yes. If you'd done *any* research on the issues you proclaim to have great knowledge about rather than just spouting out your ass, you'd know who they are.

    127. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      Wow. When did I claim to have great knowledge?
      All I did was share my (subjective of course) experiences.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    128. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      That says that X is not speedy, compares it to Windows XP and speculates on why that is the case. That speculation may have been written as if it's a proven fact, but that's /. standard.
      What part says "behold my great knowledge I have chosen to share, feel honored"?

      Besides the point, but why couldn't I have detailled knowledge about some software and its shortcomings without knowing about the people involved?

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    129. Re:So when do we get its successor? by binford2k · · Score: 1

      Would you trust a analysis of Hamlet or King Lear if the author had no idea who Will Shakespeare was?

    130. Re:So when do we get its successor? by neumayr · · Score: 1

      Will who?

      But seriously, I wouldn't dismiss this kind of analysis based on that fact alone.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    131. Re:So when do we get its successor? by nesmeyanov · · Score: 1

      What are you smoking?

      You don't install ANY OS on hardware without considering driver support.

      MacOS is no different. Various forms of Windows are no different.

      Linux and X are not alone in this.

      That said, I've never gotten all the whining. I've put no more
      effort into buying machines and vidcards that I would have done
      to avoid a lemon under Windows. Yet I've managed to avoid problems.

      Slackware 96 was not pretty but it wasn't painful in this regard at all. hmm that`s interesting
  2. IT books rarely go out of date by jrothwell97 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As long as the program lives on (even as abandonware), so does the technology and the potential for manuals and other HOWTO material. People still buy QBasic By Example (and blogs still rave about it) even though it was unbundled from Windows in Vista (maybe even XP, I'm not sure) and most people (myself included) haven't written a proper program in it for coming up on a decade.

    --
    Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    1. Re:IT books rarely go out of date by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Actually, QBasic was never in any version of 32-bit (NT-derived) Windows. It would be very hard to do without a virtual machine, because QBasic is a DOS program, and 32-bit Windows isn't built on DOS. Unlike 16-bit Windows, which was really just a GUI and scheduling layer on top of DOS.

      You probably associate QBasic's "unbundling" (the more usual term is "end of life", or as nontechnical people say, "death") with XP because that was the first version of 32-bit Windows that had enough 16-bit backward compatibility to be offered to consumers. But it was really a whole new OS. It wasn't just QBasic that was abandoned, it was the whole OS that it ran on.

      I can see writing QBasic for fun, or for educational purposes, or for maintaining legacy applications that aren't used heavily enough to be upgraded. But any programmer who tries to impose a new QBasic application on his users should be shot. If you're creating new code, there are better tools. More to the point, there are tools with a talent pool that extends beyond a few hobbyists and fanatics.

      No, IT books do go out of date. It happens when no real IT gets done with the technology, and only the abovementioned hobbyists and fanatics care about it. X Windows isn't there yet (and may even stage a comeback in the embedded/appliance world). But QBasic definitely is. And if you don't believe that, perhaps you'd like to buy all my old "data processing" textbooks, with their up-to-the-minute discussion of punched-card management.

    2. Re:IT books rarely go out of date by jrothwell97 · · Score: 1

      No, IT books do go out of date. It happens when no real IT gets done with the technology, and only the abovementioned hobbyists and fanatics care about it. X Windows isn't there yet (and may even stage a comeback in the embedded/appliance world). But QBasic definitely is. And if you don't believe that, perhaps you'd like to buy all my old "data processing" textbooks, with their up-to-the-minute discussion of punched-card management.

      However, while people are still using them, whilst there may not be a market for them, they may still be in use. It's a bit like, say, the abacus. Millions in existence, and still in use, but no market.

      With the way electronic voting is going, you may actually be able to dust off those punchcard books again.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    3. Re:IT books rarely go out of date by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Actually, a skilled abacuser can work a lot more efficiently than most of us can with a calculator.

      When you say "people still use old IT technology" you mean they play with it. They don't use it for IT. It's like the fans of medieval warfare who construct and deploy trebuchets. They may enjoy themselves (which is certainly enough reason to do anything), they may even learn something, but you don't hear of them trying to convince the army that they'd be useful in Iraq.

      X Windows still has serious users. QBasic does not.

    4. Re:IT books rarely go out of date by kv9 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Actually, a skilled abacuser can work a lot more efficiently than most of us can with a calculator. this takes me about 15 seconds to type on a shitty keyboard:

      $ echo 17*21*56^2/8.5 | bc
      131712
      so, about 1 hour faster than your skilled example? I'm just ballparking it here, I don't happen to know any skilled abacusers in person. do they drop good loot?
    5. Re:IT books rarely go out of date by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Do you know the difference between a calculator and a computer? Guess not.

    6. Re:IT books rarely go out of date by kv9 · · Score: 1

      Do you know the difference between a calculator and a computer? Guess not. calculators are for girls and computers are for boys?
  3. Bad review by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

    How bad can a review be? This provides no useful information, except that the reviewer seems to have liked it a lot.

    1. Re:Bad review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How bad can a review be? This provides no useful information, except that the reviewer seems to have liked it a lot.

      Maybe they didn't want to spoil it due to their undying love for the author and/or the book.
    2. Re:Bad review by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What did I leave out that you would like to know? I'm always looking to do a better job and would appreciate any help in that regard.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    3. Re:Bad review by logru · · Score: 2, Informative

      * What does it cover?
      * What are the chapters?
      * What detail does it go into?
      * Who is it aimed at?
        * Would a newbie find it useful or bewildering?
      * How expensive is it?
      * Is it easy to use as a reference or do you read it cover to cover?
      * What didn't you like about it?
      * Was there any bad information in there?
      * When you say it's more linux aimed, to what degree?

      Those are just some of the questions I can come up with from the top of my head...

    4. Re:Bad review by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      I try hard not to just summarize the book. Or just go over stuff that's really easy to get - I think you might find that this page has a lot of what you want - the toc will give you a great idea of what the book covers.

      The subjects are covered thoroughly as I mentioned, with coverage of command line as well as gui tools and the appropriate config files. There is also some explanation as to why things work the way they do and nice ideas/examples of various ways that those options can be implemented.

      I think the importance in regards to audience is not level of experience but rather desire. That's why I addressed this issue the way that I did. A person who doesn't care how X works - as long as it does, probably would not be too interested in this book or implementing what it has to offer. A person who is new to systems that use X or is experienced but hasn't played with X a lot would find it useful. I don't think it would bewilder a newbie. Things are explained thoroughly and I guess all they would need is some level of familiarity with the command line. Nothing extreme though. They could probably even get by without vim, as easy as it is to use things like Kate or other options. I guess I also assumed that anyone who would buy this - would in all likelihood know enough to work through it.

      I can't really put the cost in the review - I mean I guess I could tell you what O'Reilly has suggested for the price - but if you are paying that, you aren't being a smart consumer. Every book review is accompanied by a link directly to the book at Amazon (or whoever slashdot links to at the time). And the ISBN is up there too - if cost is a consideration I'd use that to find your best option.

      You could read it cover to cover. I did. It was almost all new to me so that worked out well. With any technical book - I think a good index is really important so that it can serve as a decent reference. This book has a good index and would work well as a reference. If it didn't have a good index, I guess the detailed breakdown of the toc would help - but it would still be tough to go back and hunt down specific bits. This is, in my opinion where Safari shines. Searching the electronic version is nice.

      I didn't have any real problems with the book beyond the Linux orientation. If I had, I'd have mentioned them.

      No bad information to my knowledge. There was one typo - they used the word depreciate instead of deprecate. I filled out the form on the book's O'Reilly page. It wasn't too big a deal, I knew what the author meant.

      Aimed at Linux to the degree that it's pretty much always Linux he's dealing with when he moves outside of generic X stuff. I'm not sure what you want beyond that. That I thought I was pretty clear on, but I guess not. Now - in the case of the flavor of Unix I work with, AIX - a lot of Linux stuff is available on it now. But it would have been cool to know if AIX keeps something somewhere different from most Linux distros that he would mention that. But he didn't really deal with Unix that way. I'm assuming this is in large part due to the fact that it isn't as easy to get one's hands on Unix. I never worked with AIX until my current job - because my employer has it. I don't own any p-serires machines or anything myself. It's not a deal breaker though - because a lot of X stuff is pretty standardized across all platforms.

      I wrote the review at Panera, on a Sunday morning after I finished the book. It's kind of a hobby, writing reviews and submitting them to Slashdot. I find myself often pulled to just regurgitate what's in the book. That would be more of a book-report than a review. With a review, my understanding is that I want to convey more why I think the book is worthwhile or not, as opposed to listing what's in the book. But maybe I pulled a little too far that way this time. The nice thing is, I think, if

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    5. Re:Bad review by belmolis · · Score: 1

      Listing the manufacturer's suggested price is actually useful. Granted, lots of people will get the book discounted or in another country, but the manufacturer's price gives a good idea of the price range.

    6. Re:Bad review by logru · · Score: 1

      I understand what you mean when you say you don't just want to write a book report, however as I don't know you it's hard to evaluate whether I will like it or not.

      From a book review I want to get enough information to be able to judge whether there is a probability that I will like it. I want to know what to expect from the book, which is why it's important to summarize what's in it, what the writer's style is like, if it is dry or amusing, whether I can read it from cover to cover or if I will use it as a reference, or if it's probably just going to sit on the shelf.

    7. Re:Bad review by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  4. O Rly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nice book but what i was really looking for was "X Window System Power Toys Plus!"

  5. My only suggestion for X by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    is that it know the hardware it's running on better. You shouldn't need a file to say what resolution your monitor can do for instance; it should just know and keep track of preferences of what resolution you'd prefer maybe.

    This isn't a troll; monitors and graphics cards have been able for donkeys years to tell the OS what resolutions and refresh-rates they are capable of for years now and X hasn't caught on.

    And that's pretty much my only complaint.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
    1. Re:My only suggestion for X by jedidiah · · Score: 0

      Your complaint is at least 5 years out of date.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:My only suggestion for X by pembo13 · · Score: 3, Informative

      You mean X should be able to auto config itself and not rely on a set resolution in /etc/X1ll/xorg.conf? Kinda like how it does now?

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    3. Re:My only suggestion for X by mhall119 · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't need a file to say what resolution your monitor can do If you have a monitor that can tell X what it can do, then you don't need anything in your config file. I've only had to set them in my xorg.conf when I was running xvnc with no monitor attached (it defaulted to 800x600 I think, but I wanted a higher resolution).

      X.Org 7.4 doesn't even seem to need a config file at all.
      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    4. Re:My only suggestion for X by mpapet · · Score: 1

      is that it know the hardware it's running on better.

      Xorg does this just fine on vaguely modern hardware that doesn't need extra hacks. (Intel, I'm looking at your graphics chipset!) It's the distro's configure script that isn't up to the job.

      Of course, you COULD contribute a better script...

      --
      http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    5. Re:My only suggestion for X by Enleth · · Score: 2, Informative

      mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf.bak

      And restart it. Seriously. Since about a year, the best way of running X on a PC is to let it autoconfigure itself without any configuration file, not even the one generated by some distro-supplied automatic configuration system.

      --
      This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    6. Re:My only suggestion for X by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually your problem is probably that you have a file - these days, the meaning of xorg.conf has shifted mostly to "I want to OVERRIDE the stuff you autodetected, X". Thus, new linux users don't know what the heck you're on about.

    7. Re:My only suggestion for X by ianezz · · Score: 2, Informative

      This isn't a troll; monitors and graphics cards have been able for donkeys years to tell the OS what resolutions and refresh-rates they are capable of for years now and X hasn't caught on.

      Uh? Xorg (and XFree86 before) have been querying monitors characteristics via DDC for years. HorizSync and VertRefresh are just for really ancient monitors/graphic adapters. Look here if you don't believe me.

    8. Re:My only suggestion for X by hitmark · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      not only intel. from what i understand, there are displays out there that provide false info about its capabilities. one company selling such products have a half-eaten fruit as a logo iirc.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    9. Re:My only suggestion for X by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, that works great if you plug in one display when you install and never change it.

      Now go to your nearest Mac, plug in a second display (while it's running), and watch what happens. Then go to your nearest Linux box, plug in a second display (also while it's already running), and watch what happens. Note that the Mac was using both displays about 4 seconds after you plugged it in, and the Linux box was not.

    10. Re:My only suggestion for X by mjm1231 · · Score: 1
      While what you say is true, how this works in practice varies by distro. The last several times I've installed slackware, I didn't need to run any config script or edit any files to get a working xorg setup.

      However, I have an old P3 running xubuntu that I use on a daily basis which has taught me that detecting a monitor is one thing...redetecting a monitor is something else. Windows is often not much better in this regard, but at least the interface for changing the monitor settings is easier to navigate and more importantly, works.

      When I first installed xubuntu on this machine, it had an old 15" monitor hooked up to it. When I decided it would be a useful machine, I dug up an old 17" monitor and swapped that one in. I could not get the default screen resolution to change from 800x600 to 1024x768. I ran through all the video setup instruction I could find on the ubuntu website and forums, including editing the xorg.conf by hand and resetting the grub splash screen. None of this really solved the problem. Eventually I got it to the point where restarting xwindows with a ctrl-alt-backspace brings it up at the desired resolution. The system still starts up with an 800x600 resolution almost every time. If it goes to sleep, when it wakes up it will sometimes revert back to 800x600. Since I have the ctrl-alt-back kludge, I stopped looking for a solution. I'm thinking of just doing a fresh install rather than an upgrade when xubuntu 8 becomes available, but really, should reinstalling the OS be the best solution to reset xorg when replacing a monitor?

      Yeah, this is probably something solvable by the distro maintainers. It seems that if this was something easy to do with xorg, then a distro as large as ubuntu should have had it solved awhile ago.

      --
      Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
    11. Re:My only suggestion for X by FooBarWidget · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. This has already been addressed in the most recent X.org release. In fact the goal of this release is automatic hardware hotplugging support with no config files.

      Actually it already works now. I'm running Ubuntu 7.10. Not too long ago I plugged in a beamer into my VGA port, and it... just worked! No configurations, no restart, it Just Worked(tm).

      If you're going to whine, at least make an effort to stay up to date with the facts.

    12. Re:My only suggestion for X by ADRA · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There will always be problematic hardware that needs more than just using auto-probed settings using than using /proc and EDID settings. My issue is a minor one, but a major head-ache. I've got a TV as my monitor, and like many many TV's on the market, the TV overscan/underscan issues. The only way to property configure that monitor is for someone to manually plug in settings to come up with a few 'magic' resolutions that will 'just work' out of the box of any new distribution.

      But I do agree, most of whats currently inside Xogr.conf can be auto-probed. Maybe we should loosen up the constraints on required sections of Xorg.conf and allow for more 'probe and attach everything I have' configurations, but I wouldn't consider removing the file entirely.

      --
      Bye!
    13. Re:My only suggestion for X by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      Exactly my point. Xorg auto configs now (I can't exactly say that I prefer it myself)

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    14. Re:My only suggestion for X by krmt · · Score: 1

      Very little is required to be in xorg.conf these days, and that amount has been getting less and less over time. You no longer need a serverlayout section, for example, because it's now inferred from the remaining sections. If you have no video card section one is automatically figured out for you. These are all relatively recent (last year or so) developments, but they do exist in the source tree today.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    15. Re:My only suggestion for X by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. This has already been addressed in the most recent X.org release. In fact the goal of this release is automatic hardware hotplugging support with no config files.

      So how do you set it? What's the Xorg 7.3 version of the Mac's "Display" control panel, or Xinerama's LeftOf/RightOf config options? Hotplug support needs both server support (which this appears to be) and client support (which I see little of). Oh, I see: I just need to read the HowToRandR12 document to learn how to type commands like "xrandr --output VGA --right-of LVDS". "Just works" my ass. (They have a GUI tool, "grandr", but it doesn't appear to support positioning.)

      Actually it already works now. I'm running Ubuntu 7.10. Not too long ago I plugged in a beamer into my VGA port, and it... just worked! No configurations, no restart, it Just Worked(tm).

      I'm happy for you. If it works for one person, it must work for all, huh? We couldn't possibly have different needs or configurations.

      If you're going to whine, at least make an effort to stay up to date with the facts.

      If you're going to bitch about people whining, at least make an effort to understand what they're whining about.
    16. Re:My only suggestion for X by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or how about instead of whining you spend 5 seconds on Google, or even searching your distro's package repository. On Ubuntu 7.10, we have displayconfig-gtk. Fedora 8 had something similar, if not identical, when I tried it recently. You can position your screens any way you like with these tools, never having to touch xorg.conf.

    17. Re:My only suggestion for X by PenGun · · Score: 1

      Oh you Mac wienies are so pitiful. You buy a machine that just works, usually because that's all you could probably handle and then sit around congratulating each other and your selves for your great wisdom. Then to compound your lameness you attack everyone else for being uncool.

        Your desperation to have the responder be unique gives away your bias. There are quite a few GUIs for X control. Nvidia's is almost good.

        I gotta get back to getting my wireless lan up. Sure I can buy a router that 'just works' but what would be the fun in that. I have it up but attaching dhcpd properly is a problem ... that I will solve. I always win ... although sometimes it takes a while ;). The intel stuff on the GL960 chipset is next after that. Vista must die so my laptop can be clean. ;)

    18. Re:My only suggestion for X by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      Yes, that works great if you plug in one display when you install and never change it.

      Now go to your nearest Mac, plug in a second display (while it's running), and watch what happens. Then go to your nearest Linux box, plug in a second display (also while it's already running), and watch what happens. Note that the Mac was using both displays about 4 seconds after you plugged it in, and the Linux box was not. This is what's currently being implemented with xrandr 1.2. The drivers are only just starting to support it though.

    19. Re:My only suggestion for X by everslick · · Score: 1

      I have no doubt, that X will be there the day monitor and panel vendors fill in their EDID roms with sane data instead of shipping cdroms with their hardware.

    20. Re:My only suggestion for X by TractorBarry · · Score: 1

      Well I'm glad it "just works " for you but it certainly doesn't "just work" for everyone.

      I too am running Ubuntu and since I upgraded to 7.10 I have found it impossible to get my monitor working right. i.e. Autodetection simply gets it wrong annd refuses to use other than 1280x1024@50hz (my Iiyamas native resolution is 1280x1024@85Hz).

      So... after supplying the Windows .INF files it's still wrong (but much better than auto detect). Manually enter details ? Still wrong. Even worse when I manually edit xorg.conf and put in the values that have worked perfectly for all other releases of Ubuntu it still won't display at 85hz.

      Additionally after I'd started to try and fix the issue then when the X server first starts it also pops up a GDM screen at the wrong resolution, immediately shuts it, shows the NVIDIA logo (which I've disabled in xorg.conf) and then starts X again with what seems to be the best resolution it can manage 91280x1024@75hz) but this is still not right it's and still not what I've asked it for...)

      So whilst I'm glad X is trying to automatically configure hardware I'd still like to see it with a "just do what you're damn well told" setting.

      --
      Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
    21. Re:My only suggestion for X by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      ...pops up a GDM screen at the wrong resolution, immediately shuts it, shows the NVIDIA logo (which I've disabled in xorg.conf) and then starts X again with what seems to be the best resolution it can manage 91280x1024@75hz) but this is still not right it's and still not what I've asked it for...) 1. Your X server DOES NOT USE YOUR xorg.conf if you see nvidia logo after disabling it in that xorg.conf .
      2. Considering that you wrote "91280x1024@75hz" instead of "1280x1024@75hz", you probably made some typos in your configuration as well. Possibly the same typo.
      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    22. Re:My only suggestion for X by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      Historical problem with this is that there wasn't much informative support from hardware vendors to do output detection elsewhere than on Windows. (Apple is also different, they know what hardware OS runs on and have all support from manufacturers they need). So there wasn't much use for configuration system overhaul until recently.

      But finally we have most of it working with RANDR 1.2. Since X in this case provides a mechanism, not policy, it doesn't turn a display on automaticall when it's plugged. That decision is a job of separate UI "manager" apps, and I hope that KDE/Gnome/whoever will have that included soon. The mechanism is there, implemented since Xorg 7.3.

    23. Re:My only suggestion for X by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      Could be that EDID is not interpreted correctly (or that it's simply broken in that monitor). Consider submitting a bug report to xorg bugzilla. Btw. if you are using binary nvidia driver, it may also be a cause of such quirk. To check that, if you are able, try to plug the monitor to a Intel-GPU-based lapop running at least the same distro (or better, Fedora 8/Ubuntu 8.04 beta as they have the latest 7.3 Xorg).

    24. Re:My only suggestion for X by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because yes, I'm an expert on EVERY part of my operating system from kernel to user land programs and I have enough free time to get this and everything else wrong working.

      Secondly, both Windows and Mac have had this working for YEARS.

    25. Re:My only suggestion for X by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      DPMS + XRandR.

      This problem was fixed ages ago. See, now X is perfect for you.

  6. Courtesy of the fortune program by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    X windows:
            The ultimate bottleneck.
            Flawed beyond belief.
            The only thing you have to fear.
            Somewhere between chaos and insanity.
            On autopilot to oblivion.
            The joke that kills.
            A disgrace you can be proud of.
            A mistake carried out to perfection.
            Belongs more to the problem set than the solution set.
            To err is X windows.
            Ignorance is our most important resource.
            Complex nonsolutions to simple nonproblems.
            Built to fall apart.
            Nullifying centuries of progress.
            Falling to new depths of inefficiency.
            The last thing you need.
            The defacto substandard.
     
    Elevating brain damage to an art form.
            X windows.
    That quoted; X is here, it's proven, it's stable and it works pretty damned well.
    1. Re:Courtesy of the fortune program by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      I get so sick and tired of these old myths about X being bloated, etc. X by modern standards uses very little resources compared with say Vista, and yet it has kept up with latest improvements in graphics technology. Most of these myths were invented at a time 1980s when computer hardware was very slow 4 mhz for instance, ram was small, and where the true performance problems were with the hardware of the time which was not advanced enough to run much of any GUI. They have nothing to do with X itself but were complaints that were caused by the hardware of the day. By todays standards X is fast, efficient and small on modern hardware, and you will find that vista consumes far more resources than X does.

      X is not at all a fossil and in fact is at the cutting edge of design improvements and technology such as with compiz. Anyone who says X is a fossil does not have the slightest clue what they are talking about and they apparently have been living under a rock for they have not seen compiz and the amazing things it does. X is polished and a mature code base, it has the benefit of backwards compatability as well. ALl of the downsides of trying to replace something so mature and well developed, with something which is likely going to be, with todays coding standards (sloppy, bloated), to consume far more ram, would probabaly end up being slower, which would be immature and filled with bugs, and which would not be backwards compatable, would create far more problems than it can solve. This is the way most new software is today and X by todays standards is pretty darn efficient and uses less resources than most modern programs I have seen. It makes far more sense as well to develop extensions to X to improve it and in this manner we can make it do whatever we need to do and keep it up to date with the times while backwards compatable. This has what has worked now since 1987 when X11 was released. I am glad people who say that X needs to be replaced are not making design decisions because they do not know what they are talking about and their ideas would give us huge problems for something that carries no benefit to what we have now. X can continue to improve and keep up with whatever new demands may arise while keeping the benefits of backwards compatability. As far as X being slow this is an old myth that refuses to die. It is far faster and uses less memory than vista. I have used X successfully on a 486 with 8 mb of ram! Just try that with vista, you wont get far! ANd yet X with compiz is at the cuting edge support more high end graphics features than Vista does. You have everything you want with X, so I dont see why people are trying to bash it!

  7. The best thing about Xorg documentation ever: by Enleth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From man xorg.conf, verbatim:

    VIDEOADAPTOR SECTION
    Nobody wants to say how this works. Maybe nobody knows ...


    On the more serious note, Xorg might have some misfeatures and shortcomings - that don't really justify everyone whining there, but, well, it's kind of typical - but the sheer fact that something designed over 20 years ago to operate with hardware and software long forgotten still does its job well and manages to keep up with other windowing systems even when it comes to bells and whistles (Composite, etc.), while being ABI (ABI, mind you, not API) compatible with software that actually is 20 years old, means something. That's one solid piece of engineering, the kind one doesn't see often.

    --
    This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    1. Re:The best thing about Xorg documentation ever: by syousef · · Score: 1

      If you're seriously saying that 20 year old X.org (predecessor) binaries will work on a modern OS, I'd love more detail.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    2. Re:The best thing about Xorg documentation ever: by Enleth · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm saying that a binary that is 20 years old and uses the X11 protocol as a client most likely will work with a modern Xorg server. It would probably be a problem to find an OS and libc able to run it while being modern enough to run X, but that wasn't the point. X connection itself should work just fine.

      --
      This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    3. Re:The best thing about Xorg documentation ever: by syousef · · Score: 1

      Ahhh what you're saying is that the binary message spec hasn't changed.

      That's not as big a deal. How old is TCP? Ethernet?

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    4. Re:The best thing about Xorg documentation ever: by Enleth · · Score: 1

      I'm glad you asked about TCP and Ethernet - which are decades old as well - as those are exactly the same kind of solid, dependable engineering that can survive the test of time almost unchanged (compatible ABI being one indicator of that), despite other technologies around it coming and going all the time. If you think about it, there aren't many of those, but we don't usually notice how outstanding they are because we take them for granted or even treat them as something basic and simple. Sure, understanding how TCP works isn't very challenging, but to *desing* something like that is everything but simple. The same with X, IMHO.

      --
      This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
  8. Proper qbasic program? by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    Isn't that one of those oxymoron things like "Military Intelligence".

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Proper qbasic program? by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      don't be so picky. You have to consider what languages were available at the time. Qbasic and its predecessors came free with every version of DOS and that is a significant competitive advantage over, say, Turbo Pascal. I know that, at the time QBasic was introduced, there were much more advanced languages on the market, but if we are to explore this avenue, Smalltalk/80 was already putting the Java (or C# or C++) we have today to shame.

  9. XDMCP: Help please! by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    XDMCP is one of my favorite features of X. But, getting it set up is such a royal pain in the butt, especially on networks with mixed distros and OSs. It's been a few years since I've had to administer it much, but my only real gripe with X was the time it took getting a good XDMCP environment up and running. Hope there's some help with it included.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:XDMCP: Help please! by misleb · · Score: 2, Informative

      Really? I don't recall having much problem with XDMCP. Granted, I never had to do it large scale, but it was more or less just a matter of having one machine run XDM/GDM and then on "client" machines start X with an option that points it to the IP of the XDMCP "server." IIRC, there is even an XDMCP browser. The only thing is that some distributions (maybe most these days?) don't enable listening for TCP connections by default for security reasons. So you have to know where to enable that.

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  10. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    > X is not a window system, it's a display system.

    X is the windowing system, metacity/kwin are window managers and Gnome/KDE are desktops. Why do you presume everyone would call it "X Windows" if it wasn't a windowing system?

    1. Re:Wrong by Tiber · · Score: 1

      OK, you tell me what happens to applications when you fire up X along with an application of your choice that isn't a window manager.

    2. Re:Wrong by belg4mit · · Score: 1

      You get a GUI with a window for the application you launched. If that happens to be a terminal,
      you can even launch more programs. All the wm does it let you select which window in the stack
      you wish to play with.

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    3. Re:Wrong by lahvak · · Score: 1

      That's simple. The application windows will be created, but not managed. Which may be a problem if the application has several windows that have to be used at the same time, since one of the windows will probably cover at least parts of the other windows, and without a window manager it will be rather hard to access the other windows and bring them on top, or move windows out of the way. However, if you have an application that has only one window, or has a one main window and occasionally pops up a dialog window, that is used and closed quickly, you have no problem. I used to have a somewhat underpowered computer that I used to run starlogo. In order to minimize memory use, I would run starlogo directly on top of X. The computer would run just a very minimal system, X and starlogo. It worked perfectly well.

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:Wrong by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Clearly you've never killed your Window Manager while running X. It flattens all the apps out on the display. If you make the mistake of doing it without a terminal 'on top' to load a new Window Manager you need to log in from another station to kill it or use alt-control-backspace and kill all your active apps.

      That said, it's not a problem at all. I've had plenty of occasions to kill a Window Manager and load another without leaving X. On the Ultra 5 across the room for me there I loaded the default X with twm so I would have a windowing system to use to configure stuff while I installed a bunch of apps and compiled fvwm. I also made sure to ssh my .fvwmrc over from my main desktop machine before killing twm and loading fvwm to replace it.

      That kind of flexibility is why I once had a machine that I had used for about a week, and then shut down the X to discover it had a bare generic prompt, with no hostname, because I had installed NetBSD on the system, got X up and running, and had never shut down the X Window System or rebooted the system. At first I thought something had screwed up (no hostname in the bash prompt??) and then realized it was just that the machine had never been rebooted after the install.

    5. Re:Wrong by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      Clearly you've never killed your Window Manager while running X. It flattens all the apps out on the display. If you make the mistake of doing it without a terminal 'on top' to load a new Window Manager you need to log in from another station to kill it or use alt-control-backspace and kill all your active apps. Uh, well first of all, the focus follows the mouse, so if you can mouse into any part of a terminal window you can run another wm by typing blind.

      And if you can't, just switch to a vt and run "xterm -display :0" (or whatever your display number is). Switch back to X and you'll have a new xterm on top of the window stack.

      But most window managers support the "--replace" flag these days, so you should never have to kill a wm first.

  11. Entitlement Complex in Open Source Software by MasterOfMagic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Then hire (and more importantly pay) a mechanic to fix it. A mechanic doesn't do what he does out of the goodness of his heart and because he likes other people. He wouldn't be able to pay his bills if he did that. You are not entitled to free car service just because you are you, just like you are not entitled to free and open source software changes on your whim.

    If you know him personally or if it's a side project or it interests him enough, he may do it for free. That's his choice as to how to spend his time. However, the vast majority of programmers in the open source community think that X works. They aren't interested in pursuing an alternative, at least not for free. I'll bet if you offer to pay their salary, their interest would be piqued. I'll bet if you had the skills to write one on your own, you could do it and attract some mindshare. Now, and this is key, sitting around on Slashdot and bitching about it won't solve the problem.

    Do it yourself because you are interested, hire someone else to do it, or accept that the vast majority of open source development is done because it's in the best interests of the person working on a particular project, and right now, the consensus amongst open source developers is that the X Window System works.

    1. Re:Entitlement Complex in Open Source Software by maestroX · · Score: 1
      Besides that, I'd say the last couple of years have seen a major improvement for X thanks to Keith Packard after years of inactivity at the open group.

      Modularization, cairo, etc. etc. The beast that was once difficult to appreciate is now easily accessible, no more xlib, *aw*, editres.

      the new messenger generation will never understand the why of BitchX ;-)

    2. Re:Entitlement Complex in Open Source Software by octopus72 · · Score: 1

      So what's actually wrong with X(org)? I don't see why it needs replacement just because it's based on old codebase so people (having no idea how it actually works) tend to call it a dinosaur.

      Actually many (Linux) graphic problems are being worked on and I don't see any fundamental one that would require a rewrite of X.

    3. Re:Entitlement Complex in Open Source Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So unless you are going to either change it yourself or pay someone to make changes to a piece of software you shouldn't even discuss what you think is wrong with it?

      Nice attitude.

    4. Re:Entitlement Complex in Open Source Software by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      Sure you can discuss it. But he wasn't discussing - he was whining. It was mindless complaints with absolutely no constructive criticism whatsoever. It serves no purpose other than to potentially discourage the people who actually want to improve it.

    5. Re:Entitlement Complex in Open Source Software by westlake · · Score: 1
      Then hire (and more importantly pay) a mechanic to fix it.

      People are buying solutions to problems the "community" ignores.

      The thing is, you'll find most likely them at the shop where the mechanics are hired by Microsoft or Apple.

  12. MOD PARENT UP!!! by uuxququex · · Score: 1
    Parent is right. The developers write software for different reasons, be it to scratch a personal itch, to try and make the world a better place, whatever. Most share their work freely and gladly with whomever wants it.

    If you don't like the software you can try to get the developer to fix it, by sending detailed bug reports or requests for adding some functionality. The developer may, or may not, work on your requests.

    But you are NOT entitled to bitch about any of the work done. You are free to not use it, to fix it yourself, to have someone fix it for you however.

    If you don't contribute yourself then you may take what is offered or you can leave it alone. But, as parent put so eloquently, SHUT THE FUCK UP if you're only going to whine.

  13. Hein? by belg4mit · · Score: 0, Redundant

    There is no linux version of X. Do you mean XFree86?

    --
    Were that I say, pancakes?
  14. I would also add by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    that just because the software is old doesn't mean that it is bad. In fact the case is often that old software which has withstood the test of time is often *better* than newer programs.

    Having said this, X has had a bit of a controversial reputation for a *long* time. One day a number of years ago, I ran fortune and got the ABC's of UNIX:

    A is for awk which runs like a snail
    B is for biff which reads all your mail
    C is for cc as hackers recall
    D is for dd, the command that does all ....
    W is for whoami which tells you your name
    X is, well, X, of dubious fame ...

    The basic issue is that X has traditionally been riddled with difficult (often nearly useless) error reporting, complex setups, low-level configuration issues which could cause hardware damage with older monitors, and the like. In some cases, documentation can also be a problem.

    However, over the last decade or so that I have worked with X (and especially the move from XF86 to X.org), these issues have been greatly reduced. Even when I hack configuration files, I find that things are a lot more pleasant than they used to be and that error messages are almost always more meaningful. Yes, it is still a beast, but it is far better than it used to be. I expect it will continue to get better.

    The large question as to a successor is a big one. I am not sure that it is possible to displace X at the moment. However, even if it happens, it will be extremely difficult to fill the entire market that X fills.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  15. Causes For Rendering Bottlenecks by krmt · · Score: 4, Informative

    Jim is one of the original authors of X. Keith is essentially the de facto overlord of the current X.org, although he doesn't play dictator except in rare cases.

    As for rendering bottlenecks, they are many and varied and none of them have to do with the network transparency issue. When local clients talk to a local server they do so via local sockets or shared memory, both of which are very fast and impose minimal or no penalties.

    What accounts for bottlenecks are things like the inability to do compositing, leading to tearing of windows when they're being dragged. This is fixed by the composite extension and a fast compositing manager, like the one found in compiz.

    Another issue is that the old driver architecture (XAA) was geared towards old-style drawings. These days we don't really look at stipple patterns much, so the new driver architecture (EXA) is geared towards solid fills and fast blits for bitmaps instead, which is what you end up doing on a modern desktop anyway. It turns out though that this is very hard to get right and the bugs are still being worked out. I don't think that this is really an issue with X being old so much as that this is just a damned hard problem to get right. It is being worked on (check out Carl Worth's blog for some examples on this particular front) so hopefully things will improve.

    Finally, there's the constant bottleneck due to incomplete or inadequate drivers. The new radeonhd, for example, only recently gained 2d acceleration support, and still lacks any sort of 3d accel. This sort of problem prevents X from adequately taking advantage of all the hardware has to offer, so performance can suffer. As a result, you lose the ability to run things like compiz, which address these issues.

    Finally, I haven't watched it yet, but I recommend you take a look at Keith Packard's google talk on remaking X. X has been largely rebuilt from the inside over the past several years, and things like Render, RandR, Composite, Damage, Fixes, Input Hotplug, and EXA have really sprung from that initiative. It's wort

    --

    "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    1. Re:Causes For Rendering Bottlenecks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://cworth.org/blog/

      For those of us without his blog bookmarked.

  16. X lite? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Does it talk about how to get the bloat out of X, and perhaps low bandwidth?

    Not bashing X as its got its place and is universal, but no one can honestly say its resource friendly.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  17. Fellow Old Fossil... by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 1

    Did you know a Miles O'Neal from the early days of X? If so, feel free to drop me a line at MEO at RRU dot COM. Or even if you didn't, what the heck!

  18. Please put an end to this meme. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not bashing X as its got its place and is universal, but no one can honestly say its resource friendly.

    Are you sure? I've personally used X on these machines:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARCstation
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Indy With accelerated 3D in 1993.

    Not to mention a bunch of other machines I can't find convinient references for. Bear in mind that a well written X11 program will still display on those machines (albeit probably missing some modern features).

    Perhaps you're including the mapped graphics card memory as part of its memory usage (as top does). It will also happily cache as many pixmaps as it's allowed to. Perhaps you're including that as well.

    20 years ago, X was a monster. These days you emulate the machines it ran on then faster in emulation than the old machines ran in hardware.

    But if you still really care about the so-called `bloat', then try installing KDrive (part of the recent X11 distributions) and use that instead of the main X server. It's used find for embedded systems, so it will be OK for your PC. If your PC is still suffering under the load, then you machine is probablu so old that you could drag a faster one out of these for free.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:Please put an end to this meme. by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Its not that my PC is too old, i just prefer not to waste resources.

      So X has improved over the years? It doesn't seem like it to me, but thats good they have made advances instead of going backwards. I still don't think it has exited 'bloat' as i consider it, but i will check out this KDrive thing this week as i have not heard of it before, and perhaps change my opinion. ( as really X is a good thing and i would never suggest it go away.. )

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  19. X is obtuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've just installed openSuse 10.3. It's running my monitor at 1024x768. It'll do 1600x1200, how do I set it so? The video is the new onboard Intel 3100, Intel C2D e6850 processor in a Dell Optiplex.

    I'm not some Social Worker dummy, I managed to get the codecs installed to play Windows Media, in spite of the cryptic questions and error messages.

    This was a snap with WinXP.

  20. It can be purchased cheaper elsewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  21. Sound by MSDos-486 · · Score: 1

    Has there been any recent efforts to add at least a sound extension to X Windows. It seems a logical next step.
    Keyboard
    Video
    Mouse
    Sound

    Think about it. If a Window manager can control mouse clicks/selections on a window, wouldn't it be cool to control the sound coming from that window/app like Vista can.

    I know they have things like ESD and nasd and the like, which are network transparent like X, but they don't have nearly the user base X does.

    1. Re:Sound by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      I am not in favor of building sound support into X per se. X should remain a graphics system (do one thing and do it well). That said, we should have a network transparant sound system that works alongside X. I believe pulseaudio is promosing and may fill that niche.

  22. Re:Sound - PulseAudio? by cnawan · · Score: 1

    I don't see a need for sound in a GUI environment, unless you perhaps need to control window position with spoken commands, but if it's application-specific volume you're after you should check out PulseAudio - it's due to be included in the next Ubuntu release. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PulseAudio

  23. Re:Sound - PulseAudio? by MSDos-486 · · Score: 1

    Seems interesting. Maybe im just two lazy to tunnel sound and XWindows though ssh. But I think an integrated system would have its advantages. Can you honestly tell me that you would be fully OK with now sound at all in a GUI enviroment

  24. My only suggestion for motorists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Not too long ago I plugged in a beamer into my VGA port, and it... just worked! No configurations, no restart, it Just Worked(tm)."

    Wow! A beamer worked "Just Like That!" What resolution did it run at?

    1. Re:My only suggestion for motorists. by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      Don't know, don't care. It worked, and that's all that matters.

  25. So when do we get its fonts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "We don't really know how to accelerate all sorts of rendering operations (glyph rendering is proving to be particularly difficult at the moment, for example)"

    Linux needs font help

    Use the GPU to do font rendering.

  26. So when do we get its documentation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The document may no longer be available, however."

    http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/18619743.PDF

  27. Re:Sound - PulseAudio? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes I would be happy with no sound in a GUI environment, especially at work. I don't like being interrupted by other peoples mail notifications, error beeps and odd tastes in music.