All GeForce 8 Graphics Cards to Gain PhysX Support

J. Dzhugashvili writes "Nvidia completed its acquisition of Ageia yesterday, and it has revealed exactly what it plans to do with the company's PhysX physics processing engine. Nvidia CEO Jen-Hsun Huang says Nvidia is working to add PhysX support to its GeForce 8 series graphics processors using its CUDA general-purpose GPU (GPGPU) application programming interface. PhysX support will be available to all GeForce 8 owners via a simple software download, allowing those users to accelerate games that use the PhysX API without the need for any extra hardware. (Older cards aren't CUDA-compatible and therefore won't gain PhysX support.) With Havok FX shelved, the move may finally popularize hardware-accelerated physics processing in games."

Comments

Nice! But...

[johannesg]

...what will be calculating my 3D images, if the GPU is already working on the physics? It is not like there is so much spare capacity left over in modern games anyway...

Re:Nice! But...

[qbwiz]

The 8800GTX has 8 groups of 16 stream processors, and they are the main graphics processors.

Re:Nice! But...

[eggnoglatte]

They're not the same as the main graphics processors; they're a separate part of the chip AFAIK. You know wrong. OpenGL, Direct 3D and CUDA all share the same stream processors on the chip.

(Think! Why would NVIDIA waste expensive chip real estate for stream processors if they weren't useful for 99.9% of the applications running on these chips?)

Re:Nice! But...

[Anonymous Coward]

...what will be calculating my 3D images, if the GPU is already working on the physics? It is not like there is so much spare capacity left over in modern games anyway... FTFA

Our expectation is that this is gonna encourage people to buy even better GPUs. It might--and probably will--encourage people to buy a second GPU for their SLI slot. And for the highest-end gamer, it will encourage them to buy three GPUs. Potentially two for graphics and one for physics, or one for graphics and two for physics.

Re:Nice! But...

[volsung]

On the CUDA forums, we've gone back and forth about this, and the diagrams that people base this statement on are backwards. There are 16 multiprocessors (to use the NVIDIA terminology), each with 8 stream processors per multiprocessor. The 8 stream processors on each multiprocessor run the same instruction at once, but on separate register files. Multiprocessors, however, are completely independent, so in principle, one could imagine partitioning the resources between physics simulation and 3D rendering. This sort of partitioning has not been made available through CUDA yet, but hopefully this means we will see it soon.

You are correct that these 128 stream processors (however you slice them) are the main compute engine. There is additional circuitry to do hardware accelerated video decoding, but NVIDIA has not exposed that functionality to 3rd party programmers, and it isn't used during 3D rendering.

Hopefully, now PhysX adoption will become better..

[bomanbot]

I hope the NVIDIA acquisition and now this news will drive the adoption of the PhysX Engine. Right now, if you look at the list of titles, the PhysX Engine is not used by many games (namely, mostly Unreal3-Engine titles).

If the adoption picks up, maybe Havok (which is now Intel property) will not remain the only physics engine in town, but right now, this news will not affect a whole lot of games...

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[tolomea]

Better is very subjective. We have both nVidia and ATI based thinkpad laptops running Ubuntu at work. And what I've noticed is that the ATI ones can do a kernel update with out screwing up the gfx drivers and they can switch between single and dual monitors (necessary when going on and off dock) without restarting X. On the other hand the nVidia ones have a pretty lil graphical config tool, while the ATI ones use a somewhat arcane and unreliable command line program. Personally I wouldn't trade my ATI one for an nVidia one any day, I very much like being able to unplug from the dock and switch down to single screen without closing and restarting all my apps.

now that the gpu is doing 2 things lets do 3 !!!

[sirmonkey]

so now that my vid card is processing the 3d graphics and the physics (which is really only eye candy) how about we make it -the gpu- run the O/S tooo!!!! ooo ooo my next summer project! have linux run on just the video card! (openmosix is still around right :-D?) :-p what?!?!?! it runs on everything else. right now i'm typeing this on my old 700mhz laptop running the latest debian :-p

So, what's actually accelerated here?

[91degrees]

Physics covers a lot, from gravity, inertia, particles, collisions, IK and various other bits and pieces. Not everything lends itself to acceleration. So what will be accelerated by this?

Re:So, what's actually accelerated here?

[TeknoHog]

Obviously, gravity and other kinds of non-steady motion are good targets for acceleration. And because of NVidia's evil closed source drivers, the best way to accelerate your GeForce is at 9.81 m/s**2.

Re:So, what's actually accelerated here?

[vux984]

From what I understand of this (and I could be wrong), the physx accelerator is primarily used to add eye-candy -- so things like showers of sparks, sprays of blood, geysers and clouds of dirt or water or snow on an impact (whether a footfall or a weapon strike...), leaves falling when you shoot trees, better hair and clothing, clouds, rain drop impacts, etc, etc.

All the physics processing for all those particles can be offloaded to the physx engine, allowing more particle effects to be going on at higher level of detail and realism (e.g. incorporating 'wind' etc..) without dragging down the cpu.

Its cool... but not earthshattering. And its a logical step to incorporate it into a video card.

I don't honestly know if it it can really be used to assist with the trajectory calculations of the interactive players tank or fighter plane or whatever, etc... but I doubt it. And it probably doesn't matter either. That is a minor part of the scene...each shower of sparks by itself probably requires more physics calculations than an entire squadron of planes... more independant particles in the shower.

Re:So, what's actually accelerated here?

[CarpetShark]

You can't do that with physics on a graphics card because it's a one way pipeline, from your program to your monitor.

I don't think that's the case. Graphics cards work on the same PCI-X buses that acceleration cards probably use lately. They use DMA to communicate with main memory without involving the processor. The VRAM might be optimised for writing, but it should be very possible to do calculations on the card, and get the results back. That's the whole point of the generalised GPGPU techniques.

On physics being done in the CPU as well, and on physics engines not being used for much beyond extra eye-candy... well, it's the natural consequence of having machines without that feature as standard. You can't rely on it for the core gameplay, therefore it's only used for bonus features.

Re:So, what's actually accelerated here?

[teslar]

Naw, it's much easier than you think. All of Physics can be expressed by just one equation, the Grand Unified Theory, the computation of which is accelerated by PhysX. The Grand Unified Theory was first discovered when programmers at Valve tried to optimise the physics engine of HL2. From the link:

Game Engine Software Engineer at Valve, Jose Garcia discovered the theory. "The game engine ran too slowly. I was assigned the job of speeding it up," he said. "I started out by combining some of the gravity equations with some of the other force equations and found it all started to fit together. After a day, I had fine-tuned the entire physics-animation functions down to four lines of code, which ran a bit faster," he added.

;)

Re:So, what's actually accelerated here?

[cnettel]

I don't think that's the case. Graphics cards work on the same PCI-X buses that acceleration cards probably use lately. They use DMA to communicate with main memory without involving the processor. The VRAM might be optimised for writing, but it should be very possible to do calculations on the card, and get the results back. That's the whole point of the generalised GPGPU techniques.
Nitpicking: PCI Express is not PCI-X. PCI-X was a derivative of the parallel PCI bus and never found in mainstream machines.

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[Datamonstar]

Exactly. I support ATI now primarily for that fact. After using them I realized that they are just more capable all around cards. Who cares which one is minutely faster? In the end it doesn't matter what card I play my games on, so why should they be shoving ads for nVidia down my throat?

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[IBBoard]

See my other post for what doesn't work quite right with my ATI card. I guess there might be a difference between desktop and laptop, but most of those things aren't an issue for me. Can't say a kernel update has ever screwed up the graphics drivers on my work machine with an nVidia card, but then I use the Livna repositories for Fedora to download the RPMs for the graphics along with the kernel update.

Re:Open Source != Holy Grail

[jx100]

The RadeonHD driver *is* GPL'd, and all the specifications necessary for writing your own drivers from scratch are in the process of being released. Significant amounts have already been released after being checked out by AMD's lawyers.

And the closed-source, binary module is still making progress while all that other stuff happens.

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[BiggerIsBetter]

Whereas for me, ATI hasn't had usable XV support since 8.35.5 (or thereabouts), and the 3D rendering is buggy as hell... which kinda defeats the purpose of using a dedicated GPU. Go look at the known issues in the release notes - it reads like an alpha dev-snapshot. I regret fitting ATI to my laptop for the sake of a supposed performance advantage over the Nvidia option, and my next machines will absolutely be NVidia Quadro (Sun workstation, yes Nvidia even provides drivers for Solaris x86) or Intel integrated (ultraportable notebook).

I dont quite get it

[theskov]

If existing cards can be upgraded thrugh a software patch, NVidia should have been able to do this all along. Are the PhysX people just much better at coding physics, or is there another reason this haven't already been added?

In other words, did NVidia just buy some clever code?

Re:PhysX

[SuperDre]

No it wasn't a waste of time.. the PhysX-card is much better at calculating physics than the 8800 which is already busy enough doing 3D.. So the combo of 8800 with Physx-card is much better than using a dual 8800..

Re:PhysX

[masticina]

They are not as they did put in the market a product that has a place. Okay they did fail to sell succesfull a product but the first graphic accelerators we'rent the most lucky either! What matters is that the idea sticks and that now we might see Physics being offloaded more. So it has a place but the one putting it first on the market well, they didn't fare well!

Re:Hopefully, now PhysX adoption will become bette

[montyzooooma]

Isn't the real problem that the games that DO incorporate PhysX hardware support don't really showcase the technology in any carnal desire type manner. There's no equivalent of GLQuake, that drove adoption of the original 3D cards.

Compatible cards

[LotsOfPhil]

http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_learn_products.html CUDA can run on some pretty cheap cards now.

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[Andy Dodd]

Have they? Where's the big news announcement?

The last big news I saw was not that they OSed the drivers, but that they had given partial card specs and promised more.

Please note that Matrox did the same thing in 1999 - They gave partial card specs (insufficient for implementing any 3D) and promised more, but never delivered. Lots of Linux users got suckered into buying paperweight G200s (including myself) back then. I will buy a card that performs as advertised NOW (whether or not it is with an open source driver or not), not a card that the manufacturer promises will eventually perform as advertised but can't at the moment.

Re:Open Source != Holy Grail

[pinkocommie]

Not quite true. They said they'd release the specs so said driver could be created but they only released partial specs for the 2D aspects of their chips. They still haven't released updated doc's for 3D/Video rendering etc

Re:Sarbanes-Oxley

[GregPK]

I think it's very forward thinking of NVidia to have incorporated the ability to do this for nearly a year. I'd say its almost game changing.

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[mdarksbane]

As an OpenGL developer, I can say that I will never touch an ATI product when I have a choice.

Their driver support lags behind nVidia by years, and when they "support" a feature, it will often be in software with no warning that it is - so instead of failing with a useful error message, all you know is that *something* you did causes your system to render at 1 frame per minute and be completely unusable.

I have spent weeks bending over backwards and through hoops to get our ATI test card to agree with me, just because it is so darn unresponsive when anything goes wrong. Non power of two texture in one of your models because the modeller apparently ignored your instructions? No warning, no error - just a hung machine that will take 5 minutes to kill the process.

Give me nVidia any day.

Re:Hopefully, now PhysX adoption will become bette

[Cathoderoytube]

One might think reluctance to adopt PhysX would be knowing that a large number of your customers don't use NVIDIA cards and therefore wouldn't be able to take advantage of the technology.
It's almost the same reason why game companies aren't making their games Vista only.

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[Andy Dodd]

"ATI needs the market share too badly."
So did Matrox...

Re:It's the "Ray" experience.

[Anonymous Coward]

Having said that, I use Linux so my next card probably will be an nVidia because of the better drivers.

You might like to hold off for a while, then. NVidia Linux support is very poor at the moment; the current drivers work fine for 7-series cards and some older 8-series cards, but they are hopeless for anything from the 8800GT onwards.

Since I upgraded to an 8800GT from an old 7-series card, performance in Windows has rocketed but graphics in Linux have gotten slower, and the display is full of glitches too. They actually had a bug in the drivers where the fan ran at 100% constantly, making the computer sound like a leaf blower whenever I was booted into Linux, and it took them over a month to fix this.

Unless they get their act together soon, this shall be my last NVidia card.

Re:Compositing window managers

[fbjon]

Not to mention a GUI isn't useful either, since everything can be done on the command line anyway. In fact, all you need is a bank of LEDs to indicate the state of the registers!