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Vista SP1 Is Even Less Compatible
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Microsoft is now saying that Vista SP1 disables some 3rd party applications. The KB article on SP1 incompatibility states: 'For reliability reasons, Microsoft blocks these programs from starting after you install Windows Vista SP1.' It does link to several vendor support pages with updates or workarounds. Unfortunately, at least one of the suggestions consists of merely disabling part of the program, which could leave you with half an anti-virus solution."
Does Vista really need anti-virus software anyway?
If i warns me, thats cool, but if it totally blocks me from running what i purchased. They can take a flying leap.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
People are quick to slam Microsoft again here. For those reading TFKBA, most of the apps are either:
In conclusion, move along, nothing to see here.
Zone Alarm is a firewall and there are both free and commercial versions of it.
I know this is /., but please RTFA.
All the vendors mentioned (ironically, with the exception of Novell) already have fixes/workarounds either ready or in progress.
I kind of doubt there are any antitrust implications when MS contacts the affected vendors in advance. TFA even notes that "this step was taken with the consent of the affected vendors."
The list of blocked programs encompasses about five programs, four of which have new versions that are compatible with SP1. The entire list of programs with less compatibility is about a dozen programs, and I only counted three of which do not have updated versions that support SP1.
Microsoft's New Leaf On Interoperability
fsckr.com - go fusk yourself!
Why does the whole Vista mess remind me of the end of a Benny Hill episode? They need to use the Ubuntu release cycle for a bit so people can move on to Vista +1.
Why are we still even talking about Vista? Is anybody really using Vista these days? Governments and Organizations have spoken out against Vista, Office 2007 and it lives in infamy everywhere else. Even Microsoft's Eric Traut has somewhat spoken out against Vista and Windows in general.
Everywhere I go people say I'll stick to XP for as long as I can, even in the Enterprise. These type of /. submissions are getting really old really fast since they all repeat the same message: stay the hell away from Vista.
AV vendors have been claiming antitrust for eight months. SP1 causes great inconvenience to their customers, what a suspicious coincidence. If the vendors were really cooperating SP1 would have contained their improvements, not a little note or a lock out.
Seeing that SP1 is not even released to public on the windows update stage yet, is it not entirely probable that the companies in question will have patches by the time its the version-de-jour?
I see how there can be an issue, but where is the issue YET?
Ice Cream has no bones.
Exactly. It's for this very reason public betas/RCs are given out... for devs to make sure their software will work with the final release and to give them time to fix and test.
Microsoft is being extraordinarily abusive towards its customers, in my opinion.
Customers are being pushed toward buying Windows Vista, even though it is clearly not a finished product, and maybe even not a desirable product.
If a company needs to buy 1,000 new computers, it is placed in a terrible position. Will it buy Windows XP, a product that Bill Gates, software's Dr. Death, has declared is Mainstream Support Retired on 4/14/2009? If it does, it will be forced to pay extra when Microsoft desides to stop supporting Windows XP. And every Microsoft customer needs official support because of the huge, huge number of vulnerabilities that are found in Microsoft products.
Operating systems don't naturally have so many vulnerabilities. Users of Mac computers don't even bother to run anti-spyware and anti-virus software because they don't have problems. Large numbers of vulnerabilities are a built-in shortcoming of Microsoft products; apparently Microsoft doesn't let its programmers finish their work. Huge numbers of vulnerabilities force an unnatural connection with the supplier; the user is dependent on the supplier for patches; that creates opportunities for control. Vulnerabilities make more money for Microsoft because people are forced to "upgrade".
When Windows XP was first released, it was very, very buggy. Windows XP became relatively usable without hassles 3 years after its introduction, with the release of SP2. Service Pack 2 for XP fixed more than 330 problems, if I remember correctly, and some of those were not documented.
We have seen numerous reasons to believe that Windows Vista will also be full of hassles at least until Vista SP2.
Microsoft's customers were forced to upgrade to Windows XP because Windows 98 had an unstable file system, an unstable registry, and lots of problems with "DLL Hell" and the "Blue Screen of Death". Customers had to endure 3 bad years with Windows XP pre-SP2. Since the release of SP2, there have been only 3 relatively good years with Windows XP, and now Microsoft is arranging pressure to have bad years again.
That's ugly in my opinion, and I'm only one of many who think that way. This is all being done by billionaires who want nothing more than more money; that's sick.
Remember, Microsoft managers are sinking the company over the long term to get short-term profit.
With operating systems, there is lock-in. Linux is not an easy option because re-writing software and re-training is too expensive in most cases. But once a reasonable alternative is available, Microsoft will have difficulty finding customers, it seems to me.
It's fine if Microsoft introduces a new product. But there should not be pressure to buy the new product until it is stable. The "new" OS product should not be designed to require users to buy new hardware, as it seems is true with Windows Vista. Remember that Microsoft serves the system builders, who want everyone to need more hardware; the final customer can be dis-regarded and dis-repected because of OS lock-in.
One of the biggest and most respected IT magazines is rejecting Windows Vista: Save Windows XP. Quote: "More than 75,000 people have signed InfoWorld's "Save XP" petition in the three weeks since it was launched - many with passionate, often emotional pleas to not be forced to make a change."
After I had a couple of old Win95-era games that refused to install on my brother's Win2k system (I haven't had Windows for nearly a decade, so I was thinking of giving them to him), I've been wondering if it might not be possible to get Wine to run on Windows. Sounds like this might be an idea that will only become more and more reasonable as time goes on. So...how about it, Wine team? Can we possibly get Wine for Windows? It could run on top of Cygwin/X. :)
The project I'm really keeping an eye on right now is ReactOS. http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html It's still alpha right now, but they're expecting to hit beta later this year. The initial beta release is supposed to be around 70% Windows compatible (realistically most things will work even then because the last 30% is stuff that isn't used that much). They're aiming for 100% compatibility of course...probably shortly before 1.0. Once that hits there will be a Windows alternative with absolutely 0 Microsoft code. It has the potential to make them irrelevant.
Even if ReactOS is capable of running 100% of windows software, it would be nearly impossible for them to reach the level of market saturation that microsoft enjoys. And it would be very difficult to describe a product with such high presence as being so easily made irrelevant.
With that said, I'll also say that I would be first to celebrate any such falling of windows. I run any OS I can in the place of windows, anywhere I can. But saying that ReactOS has the potential to make windows "irrelevant" is unfortunately a bit silly.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Mod parent down -- and you too. Since you clearly did not take your own advice and follow the links, let me help you out with the facts. The blocked software was blocked with vendor approval. Microsoft's KB article includes links to download current, working versions of affected software.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Shouldn't Linux not break their ABI with every new kernel release?
Not if the functionality being used by said software was insecure or bugged to begin with.
Now, if the AV companies legitimately do NOT have enough time before SP1 is pushed to the public, then I could see getting up in arms.
Otherwise, isnt this just common sense? Fix whats insecure and broken, advise the third parties of the changes, then release after a suitable dev delay?
Ice Cream has no bones.
MS should try, yes, but sometimes the existing software just has bugs (i.e. violates what the API says you should do). It previously worked if the OS had matching bugs that made it work.
Kinda like how people who write web pages by testing with IE and seeing it broken in Firefox etc. because the app they tested with wasn't quite obeying the standards, really...
What's Vista?
Yes, the antivirus vendors bitched when Vista was released because, particularly in Vista x64, they were locked out from fucking with the kernel. This was done for security reasons and if anyone but Microsoft did it this would be considered good practice. Microsoft listened and decided that in Vista SP1 they would provide an API through which the antivirus vendors could explicitly perform the actions they wished to perform at the kernel level.
So, Microsoft listened to the complaint and fixed it which requires that the antivirus companies change their programs to adhere to the published API. Exactly what is the problem again?
Oh yeah, Slashdot. You have to complain otherwise people might notice that you're 45 and still living in your parents' basement.
When I was younger in a moment of anger at Microsoft I once exclaimed "I'm gonna write my own O/S one without any bugs at all!" to which my friend sagely replied, "So your not gonna let anyone write any software for it?" This is something to think about.
My god, that is the most insane strawman argument I have ever seen. You spent the latter two out of those three paragraphs painting a fantasy scenario, then drawing a hugely hyperbolic analogy, and then concluding, based on your fantasy scenario, that this was extortion.
You could have read the article. AV vendors were locked out of the kernel with Vista, for security reasons, which are valid for all Operating Systems and not smoke-up-the-ass reasons. After complaints, SP1 *adds* a more secure API support so the AV vendors can screw with the kernel again (more carefully). This is Microsoft bending to the AV vendors' collective will. Necessarily, this means AV vendors have to change their support. So they do, and consent to this because this is precisely what they asked for.
Hate to ruin your day but where I come from, posting an URL without any other description or info is called SPAM. Specially when the URL is neither related to parent or the article in question... but then again, it's Slashdot so you might even get modded up just because it's some linux distro.
AV vendors have been claiming antitrust for eight months. SP1 causes great inconvenience to their customers, what a suspicious coincidence. If the vendors were really cooperating SP1 would have contained their improvements, not a little note or a lock out.
Well, speaking as a customer of one of the affected vendors who uses Vista SP1, I'd have to disagree with you. I've been running Trend Micro Internet Security 2008 since December, and when I upgraded to Vista SP1 2 days ago I had no problems. Trend starts and runs just like it should. From everything that I've read, all it takes to fix the issue is for the affected vendors to release an update to their application. Since most of the applications in question are security applications that should (if installed correctly) be downloading regular definition updates anyway, it's likely that the vast majority of users will get their applications patched before they are able to download SP1. In my example, Trend Micro apparently released the fix before I downloaded SP1. Since SP1 wasn't available from Windows update at the time (the only way I know of to get a legit copy is via MSDN), then it's doubtful that many people have seen the problem at all.
I know that this particular KB article has gotten a lot of press lately, but I haven't seen one case of a user complaining that they've had the problems described. All of the press seems to be based on the fact that Microsoft found a potential issue and made a KB article about it. That hardly constitutes "great inconvenience to their customers".
Son of a bitch! He got modded up.
Debian! Debian! SUSE! SUSE! Hippopotami! Hippopotami!
AV vendors claiming antitrust? I find that ironic, considering their industry is based solely around the insecurity of Windows. It is in Microsofts and every users best interest for Windows to be made bullet proof, but then the AV vendors would sue for more antitrust violations. It is an industry that shouldn't even exist.
No, you're wrong. It's none of those things. It's a cheap attempt to gain karma, and VOILA! It worked.
Ubuntu is not the solution in this case. Going back to XP is. (Since I want to keep my games and all the other cool stuff that Ubuntu just can't do.)
I'll risk the offtopic mod for this.
It's at the bottom, where it should be, so you read all the comments in the thread before posting one of your own, thereby reducing the likelihood of redundant comments.
Of course, there is still the possibility of posting a comment similar to one which was posted after your copy of the page loaded. Hey, it happens.
Also, seemingly redundant comments on separate branches of a thread are not redundant. They're in response to entirely different comments.
Comments which restate their grandparent in response to a parent who obviously didn't get the point are not redundant. They're trying to clear up the issue for others who may not have understood what their grandparent was stating.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I was actually trying to be funny, but I agree with you, I think that those of us who are still tied to windows for some tasks should be sticking with XP until Microsoft decides exactly how they are going to make vista work. Of course, the idea is to make sure that something is working BEFORE you release it, but when has microsoft ever gotten that right?
And how is it Microsoft's responsibility if application vendors are incapable of following the spec? If you can't follow the API properly, and the incorrect functionality you are relying on is changed/fixed, it's your responsibility to fix your own software.
I read an interesting article way back when about how Microsoft has had to bend over backwards, replicating old bugs and inconsistencies so that existing software won't break when users upgrade. At this point, I think it's safe to say that all those efforts, combined with the other political stupidity microsoft has done (like integrating IE into the OS) is now starting to bite Microsoft in the rear. Vista is just the critical mass of all bugs piled on top of bugs on top of API changes, etc.
I think Apple had the right idea when they made OS X. Redo the whole OS, and then include the old OS in a compatibility VM. That way you get a clean start while still supporting older apps.
They don't. Developers who (try to) break ABIs get handed their heads on a platter by Linus. Internal kernel stuff is different, but userland Shall Not Be Broken is the prime directive and the kernel-userland interface standards followed aren't written by us.
Most existing Windows software isn't supported on Vista anyway.....Trying buying any language tutorials ....XP or 2K only.
Only boring people are ever bored.
Trend Micro works but Novell does not. Let that be a lesson to those who would cooperate with Microsoft, it never lasts. They may reward you today but they will punish you tomorrow.
Hmm? No, it's not Microsoft's responsibility to work around bugs in apps; it's a service they're doing for their customers (the people with their new OS who want to use old software). I view it as a best-effort thing.
:p
Not having to do something doesn't mean you shouldn't, sometimes. Some times, of course, you just shouldn't
I find that ironic, considering their industry is based solely around the insecurity of Windows.
False. The primary purpose of AV software is to deflect the bullet when the user tries to shoot himself in the foot.
SP1 actually has some changes in it to placate the AV vendors. Windows x64 introduced a feature called Kernel Patch Protection which as the name implies blocks (at least as much as humanly possible) attempts to patch or otherwise hook things in to the kernel. This has been something that Windows has been needing for some time since it stops certain malware/rootkit vectors along with lazy software authors dinking around with the kernel causing it to crash. But most of the AV vendors simply keep brining their code forward from earlier versions of Windows, where they used kernel hooking to set up their access method for real-time virus scanning. Ergo Windows x64 caused a huge problem when AV vendors couldn't use kernel hooking, and while there were real APIs that worked about as well, they were not in the least bit happy about the issue and hence all the bitching in recent months.
With SP1, Microsoft is scaling back the KPP functionality in Vista x64. Now Microsoft is going to let certain parties patch the kernel again, providing an API to do so. This will make the AV vendors happy, as they won't have to rewrite a bunch of code for x64. The loser of course is the rest of us, Microsoft basically had to scale back some of Vista x64's security so that AV vendors could make their own wares work better (and in a roundabout way make them more necessary).
The AV vendors don't really have a problem with SP1 breaking any existing software since they're getting kernel hooking back, which is a far bigger win for them.
Whilst it might be the case that less stuff on Windows now runs with highest level permissions, the fact is that if a virus runs at a user permission level then it can still affect that user's files and propogate across a network.
And I don't believe virus writers have yet fully discovered what holes they can exploit in Vista. In proportion to the whole computer-using world, hardly anyone is running Vista yet so they've not really given it much attention.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
(emphasis added)
Yes, they all have updates. You should've bothered to read what the updates do, instead of assuming the updates all just fixed things. Now, had you quibbled that behavioral monitoring is worthless and that doesn't really make it "half an anti-virus program" you might have had a point, but you didn't do that.
"Average time between the installation of an XP system and the moment of system compromise is ~ 45 seconds. I forget the source, but it's been backed up by numerous other tests. Service Pack 2 supposedly increases the security, but not by much. I doubt Vista fares much better."
You'd be wrong.
A couple of years ago, a study were performed using XP, XP SP1, XP SP2, OSX (Panther, I think), and some version of Red Hat.
In the study, the computers were connected to the net and timed to see how long each would be compromised. XP and XP SP1 were compromised within seconds (like 12 or so, IIRC), but XP SP2, OSX, and Red Hat systems ran for two weeks without being compromised, at which point the test was ended. The study showed that XP SP2 was attacked orders of magnitude more than OSX and Red Hat, but the attacks failed.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
It's not that we aren't capable of following the specs. The problem is if you write to Microsoft specifications your program won't work, or some times they change the specs.
This has been one of the complaints in the anti-trust lawsuits against Microsoft is that they don't follow standards and when they provide documentation, usually large portions of it do not match their implementation.
There's one note in the DirectX 5 API that basically said, this is how you should do it, but because of a bug you can't. It will be fixed in the next version. Which that bug survived until at least DirectX 8 and now has been replaced by new functionality. Unless it's a bug that affects end users, Microsoft doesn't care about fixing it.
In Windows 2000 and Windows XP the multimedia timer was broken. This was Microsoft's recommended way of keeping audio and video playing at the right speeds. They said that it was a flaw in their design of the system and because it's in the Kernel we would have to wait for the next version of Windows to fix it, until then we were to find a work around.
I'm not even going to go into the horror that is the Winsock API.
Basically Microsoft tells us to work around their shoddy foundation. Then they start modifying support pillars to balsa wood and ripping out other ones, while in the rare case fixing one or two. Then we are blamed for their screw ups.
It doesn't help that they keep tacking on new APIs that do the same thing as the old ones. What they really need to do is sit down, actually design their systems and implement them correctly. The problem is that is not in their best interest. If they actually made something that worked and kept working, people would not have a reason to upgrade their Visual Studio. It's not in Microsoft's best interest to make something that is well designed and implemented because developers would have no reason to upgrade. Nor would users. We are seeing this with XP versus Vista.
Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.