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Getting The Public To Listen To Good Science

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "We all know that false or misleading science headlines are all too common these days and that misleading media combined with an apathetic and undereducated public lead to widespread ignorance. But the real question is, how can this trend be reversed? At a session at the recent AAAS meeting, a study was discussed indicating that what matters most is how the information is portrayed. While people are willing to defer to experts on matters of low concern, for things that affect them directly, such as breast cancer or childhood diseases, expertise only counts for as much as giving off a 'sense of honesty and openness,' and that it matters far less than creating a sense of empathy in deciding who people will listen to. In other words, it's not enough to merely report on it as an expert. You need to make sure your report exudes a sense of honesty, openness, empathy, and maybe even a hint of humor."

86 of 419 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah, but can you 'prove' it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The biggest problem is getting the public to listen to good science is to make them understand the scientific method and the philosophy of science. Otherwise it is just another type of belief to them.

    But how to you start to explain the difference between a priori and a posteriori without people rolling their eyes and walking off?

    1. Re:Yeah, but can you 'prove' it? by RobBebop · · Score: 2, Informative

      But how to you start to explain the difference between a priori and a posteriori without people rolling their eyes and walking off?

      I rolled my eyes, and then went to look it up on Wiki....

      One rough and oversimplified explanation is that a priori knowledge is independent of experience, while a posteriori knowledge is dependent on experience. In other words, statements that are a priori true are tautologies.
      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    2. Re:Yeah, but can you 'prove' it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      As a Scientologist I am offended by your remark.

    3. Re:Yeah, but can you 'prove' it? by themushroom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good science isn't necessary (in the public's eye) when it's a celebrity doing the talking. Seriously, consider Jenny McCarthy talking about autism, Tom Cruise talking about mental health issues, or Paris Hilton on drunken elephants. [grinning on the last one] While science and truth should matter, and in the end do, people still prefer the people who play doctors on TV -- or play the fool on TV, radio, magazines, etcetera -- to the folks who actually know what the f#&* they're talking about.

    4. Re:Yeah, but can you 'prove' it? by Aglassis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So what is the belief system that suits moral atheist agenda?

      Simple, as atheist's selfish agenda is to hate God and deny his revealed truth, no atheist can be moral. Nobody "doesn't belive in god" they know he is real, they just deny him, which is evil and therefore immoral.

      You cannot be moral without God, therefore you cannot be a moral atheist nor a moral atheist agenda Utilitarianism, Kantian ethics, virtue ethics, etc., don't require you to worship some supernatural entity in order to make moral judgments. Some people like to pretend than morality only exists with obeying some made up deity, but that only shows how shallow their imaginations are that they need to read what actions are explicitly allowed or disallowed from some book to know whether they are acting good or bad. Two moral judgments that illustrate this point are the treatment of homosexuals and the issue of stem cell research. No non-deistic moral system would condone averse treatment of homosexuals or the banning stem cell research. Only those who don't have a moral 'system' but instead some arbitrary list of dos and don'ts would. Another example is prevention of cruelty to animals. The religious folks adjusted their dogma only after the lead of the 'immoral' atheists who pointed out that it was not a moral action to stage cockfights, stage dogfights, place livestock in cruel conditions, or torture animals.

      I think I'll be just fine with my atheistic moral system. It forces me to think why an action is moral instead of searching for some verse in a holy book that I can interpret to my whims.
      --
      Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
  2. People don't believe in it anymore by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People have been taught, for several generations now, that causality is optional, that science is for geeks, that geeks are there to serve the jocks, that man needs to serve the state, and that perception is reality. Why would they care about your silly little experiments?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:People don't believe in it anymore by jo42 · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...the progress of Intelligent Design to Idiocracy continues...

  3. Man In The Sky by milsoRgen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well when a major chunk of the population believes the earth is only umpteen thousands of years old, I don't think a presentation of any style or quality is going to get them to listen to what science has to say in any meaningful capacity unless it easily and directly benefits them.

    --
    I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
  4. Entertainment value by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Look how Discovery channel etc get hyped and dramatized and facts removed to make for a more entertaining package. Even the news is infotainment.

    Anyway, what is Good Science? A lot of the more entertaining science is Bad Science. For example, Discovery Channel segments on dinosaurs often feature people making roaring extrapolations: find a tooth fragment and say that they have found something from a dinosaur that would have been 25 ft long and run at 40 mph. What bullshit.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Entertainment value by johnsonav · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Look how Discovery channel etc get hyped and dramatized and facts removed to make for a more entertaining package. Even the news is infotainment. I think this is a perfect example of how the situation is improving. Before things like TLC or Discovery, there were almost no infotainment outlets. Even though the balance is skewed more towards the "tainment," and less toward the "info," it is still a net positive.

      Science education, world-wide if not in the US, has never been better. Scientists and engineers make up a larger share of our society than ever before in the history of mankind. Religion and ignorance have lost ground, while knowledge and understanding have gained.

      Is there more to be done? Are we where we want to be in terms of scientific understanding? No, but we are on the right track as a species. The only things we can do is continue pushing the veil of ignorance steadily back, and doing our best to educate children in the way science actually works.
      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    2. Re:Entertainment value by ResidntGeek · · Score: 5, Informative

      find a tooth fragment and say that they have found something from a dinosaur that would have been 25 ft long and run at 40 mph. What bullshit.
      Not a paleontologist, are you? Teeth are very diagnostic, and very often well-preserved and documented. If you find a tooth dead center in a Kimmeridgian-stage formation which perfectly matches a tooth from the holotype specimen of Stegosaurus armatus, for example, it's not bullshit to say the tooth came from a dinosaur with 17 armored plates on its back - even if it sounds like it.
      --
      ResidntGeek
    3. Re:Entertainment value by etherlad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Before things like TLC or Discovery, there were almost no infotainment outlets.

      I'd like to amend that to remove TLC. Sadly, we're well beyond the days of James Burke's Connections and the like. There's not much science involved in 2-day home renovation shows, fashion makeover shows, or pimp-my-vehicle.

      The closest they get is the occasional ghost investigation, which can hardly be called science.

      --
      Soylens viridis homines es
    4. Re:Entertainment value by johnsonav · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'd like to amend that to remove TLC. Sadly, we're well beyond the days of James Burke's Connections and the like. There's not much science involved in 2-day home renovation shows, fashion makeover shows, or pimp-my-vehicle. Whaaaat?! If it wasn't for Trading Spaces, my Ph.D thesis, "The Effects of Quantum Entanglement on Low-Cost Interior Design" would never have happened. I owe my job here at CERN (Cost Efficient Redesigning, National) to that show.
      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    5. Re:Entertainment value by a_nonamiss · · Score: 3, Funny

      Look how Discovery channel etc get hyped and dramatized and facts removed to make for a more entertaining package Actually, this is a myth. I know because I saw it on Mythbusters. And it was totally busted.
      --
      -Arthur
      Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
    6. Re:Entertainment value by rve · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are making the very mistake that you are accusing the uninformed general public of.

      There is actually good and strong science behind such inferences.

      Imagine felines are a completely unknown family

      Say you have only a tooth fragment of a bobcat. That piece of information alone isn't much to go on, but if you also have a more or less complete skeleton of a house cat, and a skull and left hind foot of a lion skeleton, these three pieces of information together now tell you a lot about the likely size and general shape of the bobcat, and from the size relative to the lion and the house cat, you can probably draw general conclusions about the kind of prey the bobcat could hunt.

    7. Re:Entertainment value by hypnagogue · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Say you have only a tooth fragment of a bobcat. That piece of information alone isn't much to go on, but if you also have a more or less complete skeleton of a house cat, and a skull and left hind foot of a lion skeleton, these three pieces of information together now tell you a lot about the likely size and general shape of the bobcat
      Because, as everyone knows, the saber-toothed cat was 50 feet tall and ate litters of baby hippos for breakfast.

      You've captured the reason why the pronouncements of science are so easily dismissed by the public: they've watched during their lifetime as most major scientific theories have been completely debunked and replaced with newer, ever more confusing theories. That may be the method of science, but to the average layman it looks a lot like deception.

      Here's a clue: try using words like "maybe" and "possibly" to capture true nature of an untested (or untestable) theory. As it turns out, most folks are turned off by arrogance, particularly when flavored by a history of spectacular failure. Add that to the fact that scientists tend to harp on the layman's "ignorance", which is usually nothing of the sort. Here's a hint: that's verbally abusive behavior. As a result "scientist" is now easily conflated with "first-order jerk". A little bit of humility would go a long way.
      --
      Liberty you never use is liberty you lose.
  5. What we have here by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Is a failure to communicate ...

    Unfortunately, this is a war that we are unlikely to win. The hearts and minds of the populace are mostly centered between the stomach and groin. What the AAS report is basically saying is that science has to "advertise" - just like everything else.

    Then it's not "science". It's just one more religion / belief system in a pile of others out to get converts.

    The only thing we can do is teach the scientific method - in schools, at home, in conversations. It's the only weapon we've got, however small.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:What we have here by rthille · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree when you say it's not science at that point. The trouble is that scientists who are trying to communicate to the public ignore the scientific information about how people learn and change their beliefs. Too many scientists think that the average person is just like them; present the public with the data and the theories and they'll make the right decision. That idea ignores the fact that we're all emotional beings, not much different from the apes.

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    2. Re:What we have here by isomeme · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only thing we can do is teach the scientific method - in schools, at home, in conversations. It's the only weapon we've got, however small.

      Of course, one big problem is that the scientific method is usually taught incorrectly. People frame it as if the scientific method explained everything about how actual scientists do actual science; there's this weird image that scientists just mechanically follow a set of steps, and science results.

      In fact, of course, the scientific method is merely (though crucially) a way to apply rigorous tests to the results of intuition and imagination. Kekule dreamed that benzene was a ring; no amount of mechanical scientific-method application would have ever resulted in that golden idea. But, having had that idea, he then went into the lab and applied the scientific method to test it, to measure his confidence in the results of those tests. He published his results in a form which allowed others to reproduce his experiments, and to analyze his proposed explanation for the results of those experiments. All that is how science manages to be more than opinion.

      But the interesting part, the human part, the part that gets people interested in science, is the very part that isn't subject to the scientif method. I believe it was Brecht who remarked (paraphrased from memory) that science is not a gateway to infinite wisdom, but rather a guard against infinite folly. That's the best summary of the scientific method I've ever run across.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
    3. Re:What we have here by couchslug · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "What we have here is a failure to communicate .."

      What we have here is a marketing failure.
      The average person is not very bright, is superstitious/religious, and only relates to the world in emotional terms. Instead of trying to change them, figure out how to do what their leaders do and "sell" them what you want them to think. Scientific method is for reaching future scientists/geeks/techies, but we need to get some leverage with the average schmuck on the street.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    4. Re:What we have here by siphonophore · · Score: 2, Funny

      The hearts and minds of the populace are mostly centered between the stomach and groin.

      Wow, I sure am in the mood for a burrito and some sex right now. Thanks for reminding me.

      --
      Dance like you're hurt, Love like you need money, and work when somebody's watching.
      -Scott Adams
    5. Re:What we have here by Scaba · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, one big problem is that the scientific method is usually taught incorrectly.

      ...which causes people to make unsupported assertions, and then speak in anecdotes and generalities...

      People frame it as if the scientific method explained everything about how actual scientists do actual science; there's this weird image that scientists just mechanically follow a set of steps, and science results.

      :>)

    6. Re:What we have here by arotenbe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, one big problem is that the scientific method is usually taught incorrectly. People frame it as if the scientific method explained everything about how actual scientists do actual science; there's this weird image that scientists just mechanically follow a set of steps, and science results. Exactly. I was taught in school that all scientists must follow some 7-step process I can't remember now, except to the extent that every single hypothesis, regardless of triviality, must be formally written down or it isn't science. Also, all scientists post their findings on three-panel cardboard sheets and display them at fairs.
      --
      Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
    7. Re:What we have here by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Science is not for everyone, and you are just going to make a lot of good people feel stupid, inferior, or worse if you push too hard and make them aware of things they can't and won't understand.

      Bullshit. Having a basic rational understanding of the world is absolutely "for everyone". If someone can't and won't understand the basics of the scientific knowledge that we as a species have struggled for all of history to figure out then they *should* be made to feel stupid - ignorance certainly isn't a virtue to be respected.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    8. Re:What we have here by bloody_liberal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then it's not "science". It's just one more religion / belief system in a pile of others out to get converts.

      I hate to shake your tree, but in my view "science" is a system of beliefs; one that we inherited from the period of the Enlightenment, and we have been developing in the western world for a few centuries, and that has been working out remarkably well, and as such we wish to extend it and support it and spread it. However, there is no denying that it is "one more" belief system, and in some cases, not the best one to adhere to (as anyone who was healed from cancer through integrative medicine would testify).

      I am an academic and a scientist, and I believe in all my heart that in most cases science is the best thing we've got, and that its promotion is essential to the well being of our society.

      However, it is self-deception to think science is beyond being yet another system of beliefs, and a socially-constructed one (particularly in the case of social science). That in itself doesn't disqualify science from being the right thing to do; it just requires us, as scientists, to remember that we are being funded by the people, and for the people. And while Democracy and Science might be occasionally in opposition, we cannot afford to ignore either element of the equation...

    9. Re:What we have here by ryeinn · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What depresses me the most, as a high school physics teacher, is how right you are. Too often I see a lack of desire to actually think about things, rather than rely on the data.

      I want to scream at some points when the students are doing labs/I'm grading their labs.

      "Data is king! It determines truth. If it doesn't match with what you expected, one of two things is going on. Either your expectations were wrong or you didn't do a good enough experiment."


      You'd be surprised (or maybe not, this is Slashdot...) how many students think "I did the experiment once, my data is perfect, nothing could have possibly gone wrong." If they would shut up from talking about how their weekend went and actually think about what they're doing it would all be so much easier.

      Ok, I've gone off topic. My apologies. But seriously, stop, examine data and where it came from. Don't go by who told it to you, go by what was told.
    10. Re:What we have here by megaditto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am not talking about basic rational understanding here. That clearly should be given to everyone.

      However it's quite unreasonable to expect most normal people to understand all/any aspects of modern science. The only way you could get them to pay attention is by rubbing their noses in their intellectual inferority. I'll do this to you now to illustrate:

      Sketch an IR spectrum of HCl.
      Draw a circuit diagram for a current-to-voltage converter using a stock OpAmp.
      Write down a Euler-Lagrange equation for the shortest path between two points on an n-dimentional surface of your choice (you pick n).
      Describe an active site of acetylcholine esterase and how it interacts with a nerve agent of your choice.
      What is a holomorphic manifold?
      How do you cite a sound recording in MLA format?
      Name four European heads of state contemporary to Bismark.
      Why is mercury liquid at room temp while thallium isn't?
      What is Kalidasa famous for?
      How is ICP-AE different from a normal AA?


      See, you probably are quite a smart person able to make a living and take care of yourself. Most probably you succeeded in life without knowing a single answer to these freshman-level scince intro questions. Should we fault you for not being interested in any of this?
      Conversely, there is no reason to expect that most people will care or understand these basics either, much less "real" modern science.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    11. Re:What we have here by utnapistim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "What we have here is a failure to communicate .." What we have here is a marketing failure.

      I don't think so; I believe what we have here is - if anything, a failure in education. People are taught what to think, not how to think. The moment you know how to think and see an affirmation that has no support (in infotainment - for example) you can realize that. When you don't know how to think, you'll probably say "I'ts true - I saw that on discovery ( I do that more often than I'd like to :-( ).

      Sadly I've learned more about what science is from Hawking's Brief History of Time and an interview series with Feynman on youtube than I learned in 16 years of formal education :(.

      --
      Tie two birds together: although they have four wings, they cannot fly. (The blind man)
  6. Think globally, act locally by bperkins · · Score: 5, Interesting
  7. schools by wizardforce · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the only way we're going to see the public at large be able to evaluate claims and discard the "bad scinece"/pseudoscience is by starting in the schools. As long as there is a problem conveying basic science concepts to the younger members of our population, there is no hope of solving the problem in adults. Dover, Florida, Kansas etc. all examples where science was dumbed down, misrepresented or ignored entirely in favor of teaching pseudoscience that contributes nothing to the understanding of the world around people. It's terribly disturbing as a biologist to see that the educational system is as it stands, a complete and utter failure especially in regard to the major sciences and that there are little or no plans to remedy the situation.

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
  8. Root of the Problem by l33tlamer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The lack of emphasis on Science, Maths and good ol' Logic during schooling, especially in the earlier years, is to blame for the lack of public interest in real science. Many of my relatives and friends just don't care about how things work, as long as they do. That, the natural curiosity to find answers for the "how" questions, is what is lacking in society today in general. The only time people want to know it seems, is if they are in danger or if their wallets are involved.

    The problem is, the majority of the "ruling class" in management, government and all other areas are generally not scientifically inclined nor are they actively promoting science. They influence education policy and funding for research, which trickles down to the education system and the public's view of science.

    I personally found algebra and calculus to be interesting and challenging, the latter is what drove a lot of my friends away, when I first learned it ages ago. I know that if I had worst teachers or if my father weren't an engineer, my feelings towards would have been quite different. Until scientists are more popular than movie stars and mathematicians are more well known than recording artists, the root of the problem will still be that science is just not popular enough to be seen as interesting or useful.

    The fact that people actually care about Paris Hilton is also a nice solid data point in my suggestion that people's perspective on what's interesting and important is just waaaay off the mark from reality.

    --
    If I can do it, its probably not worth doing... probably
  9. Simple. by Ransak · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Give parents a tax break based on how well their children do in school.

    The hard part would be implementing it. Standardized testing that can be agreed upon is probably a pipe dream for something like this, but if it could be done you'd never see parents take more of an interest in their child's education.

    --
    "Powers. I have them."
    1. Re:Simple. by icegreentea · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How do you deal with kids with mental disabilities? Kids who just 'dont get math' or 'dont get chemistry'? I'm still in highschool (in fact I'm enrolled in a somewhat prestigious private school), and I know a bunch of kids who are by no means 'dumb' or 'uncreative' (some of them are incredible writers, or musicians, or artists) but just don't get math or sciences. And how do you deal with kids in crappy schools? Really the idea despite the appeal it might carry is not only impractical, but also elitist, and discrimitory. When we're trying to make people listen to 'us', the last thing we need is to make them pay more money.

    2. Re:Simple. by PPH · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Standardized testing and a standardized curriculum will never be accepted by a large portion of the public. Unless the standard happens to be teaching out of the bible.

      Look at all the moaning and crying people do over a mention of evolution in a science text. Or attempts to slip creationist material into schools.

      If you try to implement this nationally, you will run into the tradition of local control over schools. That's a brick wall you will spend the rest of your life beating your head against.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  10. Re:Just do what Global Warming Advocates Do by Black+Art · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Except that Global Warming people actually have EVIDENCE. You don't.

    The current problem is that we have too many people who are willing to tell lies to support their political views. They have found that the lies are much more acceptable when you have an authority figure telling them to the populace. Thus, you get Creationists pretending to be scientists when speaking to the public. The same goes with Global Warming deniers and other followers of Pseudoscience.

    People don't trust science anymore because they have been lied to by people like you for so long they don't know what to trust or who to believe. One group of "scientists" tell them one thing and the next day another tells them something else.

    We have gotten into this mess because people like you started to believe that Science somehow had to reflect their own political opinions, no matter what the evidence. (Like the melting polar icecaps.)

    --
    "Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
  11. Fuck em! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The Toronto Star, the largest daily circulation newspaper in Canada, ran a story a few weeks back about an "inventor" who has discovered a method to get energy out of nothing, with a few electric motors and magnets.

    The idiots at The Star ran the story with a straight face, including the financial backing that the "inventor" has raised. Now, I don't know if the "inventor" is an honest kook or a fraudster, but the sad fact is that a major newspaper has no one on staff who ever took a physics course or has any scientific knowledge. YOU CAN'T GET ENERGY OUT OF NOTHING!!!

    Sadly, the idiocy at The Star is not limited to science. And this "inventor" is going to bilk quite a few idiots out of their savings and/or venture capital.

    At some point you have to say there's one born every minute.

  12. Re:Just do what Global Warming Advocates Do by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You seem to be a pretty good example of how pseudo-scientists try to paint themselves as victims, and thus serve the cause of disillusioning the public to science by misinformation, strawmen and outright lies.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  13. Re:One name: Isaac Asimov by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Funny

    On the other hand, he wasn't as famous as Michael Jackson or Britney Spears. Says something about our sick priorities, eh?
    Clearly we should find a way for Britney Spears to popularize good science. Brilliant!
    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
  14. Re:Just do what Global Warming Advocates Do by evil+agent · · Score: 3, Informative

    Wow, I rarely get to see so many strawman arguments in one post.

    Anyway, this does raise an interesting question: is it ok to use such sensationalism even though it's based on good science? It seems to be the only way to get people to listen.

    --
    End transmission.
  15. Re:Just do what Global Warming Advocates Do by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And to insinuate that weather and climate are the same thing pretty much indicates you don't have the foggiest notion what the hell you're talking about, which leads me to believe that you are probably the last person on Earth I'd want to get information on a climatological debate with.

    All science is tentative, but thus far the denier community has tried to push that to an extreme, and are even invoking similar kinds of arguments (invoking conspiracies, questioning the peer-review process, getting lists of "scientists" who disagree with global warming that often include non-climatologists and even non-scientists) that evolution-deniers use.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  16. Re:One name: Isaac Asimov by hondo77 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Oh well. I still regard him as the greatest American.

    Greater than George Washington or Abraham Lincoln? Oooookaaaaayyy...

    --
    I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
  17. Re:Mandatory IQ and other cognitive ability by Gyga · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Do not attempt to stop chainsaw with hands or genitals."

    The moment you say "do not" someone will. Therefore that chainsaw manufacturer is helping humanity.

    --
    I don't preview or spellcheck.
  18. My method by erroneus · · Score: 3, Funny

    I have a "special" dentists chair in my basement. It's very comfortable so they don't "need" to move. Then I make the air really humid so that they don't need to blink which really helps make the toothpicks in their eyes much more tolerable. Then I just play them simple, repeatative educational videos for a short time... say about 72 hours or so. I find people are rather receptive to new ideas in the right environment.

  19. Re:easy mode by Unclemort · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you put all idiots on an island and make a reality tv show out of it, who would watch it?

  20. Article: Most scientific papers probably wrong by littlewink · · Score: 2, Informative
    1. Re:Article: Most scientific papers probably wrong by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, see it. Note the quote at the end, from a working scientist:

      "When I read the literature, I'm not reading it to find proof like a textbook. I'm reading to get ideas. So even if something is wrong with the paper, if they have the kernel of a novel idea, that's something to think about," he says."

      Also, the author of the paper points out that replication is more important than the original finding. Generally things aren't elevated to the level of scientific "truth" on the basis of one study. If the public wants to peruse scientific journals or if publish by press conference is going to become an accepted standard, then the public should understand this.

      But when your oncologist recommends chemotherapy he is not speaking from the results of one small, unregulated study.

      Note also that even if "most published scientific results are wrong," those results are still more likely to be correct than any other result.

  21. Re:immunization by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe we have to be a little less sensitive. When her baby dies (or is left sterile, or with heart damage) from one of those diseases everyone gets immunized against, someone (better yet lots of someones) should point out that she killed him. The news should carry the story.

    I'm irritated that my health plan doesn't properly cover real medical expenses like wisdom tooth extraction or eye exams, but it does cover naturopathy. Why do I have to pay for someone's placebo habit?

  22. You're joking, right? by ah.clem · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not my responsibility to "reverse the trend" - it's my responsibility to make certain that people that choose to be stupid don't get in my way. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone of average intelligence not taking the time to try to understand the world around them.

    Ignorance has consequences. Teach people to be responsible for their own learning, and you don't need to "dumb it down" for them. Pander to them and you're stuck as their babysitter for the rest of their lives.

    --
    "Life is not magic." Dr. Ron Weiss - "If we don't play God, who will?" Dr. James Watson
  23. A Sisyphean Task by Stanislav_J · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Part of the problem, at least here in the U.S. (land of self-centeredness and instant gratification) is that science often fails to give people the answers they want to hear, or the results they want to have.

    This is especially true when it comes to medical science. As far as medicine has advanced, there are still diseases and maladies that cannot be cured or even mitigated by current knowledge and practices. It can be very hard, if you are someone suffering from something of that sort, to accept that there may be little, or even nothing, that can be done. Desperation can cause even basically level-headed people to seek out untested or even already debunked alternative treatments that may at best have a mild placebo effect, more likely will do nothing to alleviate their suffering, and at worst can worsen the condition or hasten the person's ultimate demise.

    Religion, obviously, can be a powerful impediment to acceptance of science as well. If your faith stands or falls with a literal reading of Genesis, then you will not, indeed CANnot accept scientific evidence to the contrary.

    Finally, one thing I've always noted about humans is that we don't like "grey areas." We want answers that are complete, definitive, and satisfying. The fact that science can sometimes be wrong, and theories changed as more evidence is gathered, is unsettling to those who don't understand the scientific method, and leads them to have little faith in its conclusions.

    This can only be remedied by not only pushing basic science courses hard and early in school (something way more comprehensive than that which produces the mere ability to answer a few multiple-choice questions on some standardized test), but instruction in reasoning and critical thinking as well. And I don't see that happening, not by a long shot. If you have a child, and want him or her to be scientifically literate, you pretty much have to teach them yourself. Schools today are about establishing minimal (very minimal) levels of ability, and high (very high) levels of conformity. Teaching too much science threatens the former goal, while instruction in critical thinking thwarts the latter.

    --
    "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
  24. Re:Cloning. by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oh wait - human cloning is still hype... I never knew what was so wrong about clones. So what, you have delayed twin births already (frozen embryo, reimplanted after a while), not much outrage an paranoia about that.
    Making a baby twin of yourself, WHAT is the big deal? It's like an offspring, or a younger orphaned sibling in your legal guardianship. The media talk about it like it's some kind of proven heresy or something. I'm not worried about clones at all.
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  25. True But... by maz2331 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Then again, every once in a while, someone hits on a previously unknown fundamental breakthrough that turns the rules as we know them on their head. Think Gallileo, Newton, Einsten, et al. It DOES happen.

    That said, it's highly unlikely that the inventor of the "free energy" stuff is actually on to anything. I take his claims with a truckload of salt, but am willing to see what is really going on there.

    It is possible that he hit on something, but pretty highly unlikely.

    "YOU CAN'T GET ENERGY OUT OF NOTHING"

    Very true. But if someone DOES hit on a way to tap into something we've been heretofore unaware of, that doesn't make it energy from nothing, just energy from something we didn't know about before -- the same as fusion, fission, and antimatter anniahlation would have been unthinkable in 1670.

  26. SJ Gould was talking about this in the 90's by NIckGorton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Stephen Jay Gould wrote an exceptional (and entertaining - bonus) piece in 1994 about selling Evolution to the lay public - combating the Creationist spin that evolution is 'only a theory' by calling it a 'scientific fact'. He justified this with... well crap, I should let the good Professor say it much better than I could: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

  27. Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Sure, Good Science need not be completely dry and boring, but Discovery Channel etc edit for entertainment value, not fact. At the end of the day they are generating material which competes for eyeballs with sitcoms and Reality TV etc. No eyeballs means no ad revenue which means no airtime. Simple.

    Is it really a net positive for science if it gives a very skewed version of what science is and how science works?

    I would argue that the USA's peak of scientific interest was during the late 1960s when the space program was a national obsession and every second kid had a Nasa poster on their bedroom wall. Perhaps we have a lot of scientists and engineers now, but that is mainly a generational lag thing. Perhaps we know more about science now, but the interest is long gone. The current national obsessions (it there are any) are Britney Spears etc. The USA sure is not seeding the next generation of scientists.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by johnsonav · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would argue that the USA's peak of scientific interest was during the late 1960s when the space program was a national obsession and every second kid had a Nasa poster on their bedroom wall. You're probably right. But, I'm sure there were plenty of people back then that thought there were too many kids interested in The Beatles, not science. If anything, I believe that what has been lost is a generation of physicists and biologists to the siren's song of computer science. If the Apollo program was what drew them in the '60s, then dot-coms and OSS draw them now. There is no other field today where the barriers to entry are so low that almost anyone can make a real contribution.

      The first step towards solving the problem, in my opinion, is stop making college degrees the minimum requirement for employment, regardless of major. There are too many people attending college today simply looking for any degree. This results in over-enrollment in so called easy majors, and less funding for science and engineering. You don't see nearly as many foreign students in those programs because, for them, the job market back home requires real knowledge, not just a piece of paper.
      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    2. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by mdfst13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are too many people attending college today simply looking for any degree. This results in over-enrollment in so called easy majors, and less funding for science and engineering. You don't see nearly as many foreign students in those programs because, for them, the job market back home requires real knowledge, not just a piece of paper. I also think that you'd find that many foreign students have their educations funded by someone who cares what major they choose. In the US, the primary sources of funding are loans (controlled by the student), grants (given by the government for any major), need based aid (given by the school for any major), and parents. Grants and need based aid could be focused on particular majors but are not.

      I've toyed with ideas about programs that would be more corporately focused. For example, what if student loan recipients were chosen by companies? The company would be on the hook for hiring the student after graduation. The student would be responsible for maintaining good grades in a major approved by the company (note: students would be able to pick the company that offered a major that they wanted). Students who flunk out, change majors (without a new sponsor), or who decide not to work for their sponsor have to pay the loan back. If the company cuts back staff and does not hire the student, then the company eats the loan. If the company hires the student, the company is assumed to have adjusted the student's pay appropriately. After some number of years, the student will finish the loan period and can switch companies without paying back the loan.

      Another possibility would be to replace federal grants with corporate tax credits. Companies could pay for a student's tuition and mark it down as taxes paid. Obviously it would be more efficient for a company to pay tuition for a student it would like to hire than someone who is interested in an entirely different field.

      A big problem with US education before college is the shortness of the school year. Why not take a page from Germany's book and switch to ten 216 day years in elementary and secondary school (the same 2160 days that come from twelve 180 day years)? Then go to a two year program that could be more general than a university degree (i.e. something like Engineering, Science, or Liberal Arts rather than Electrical Engineering, Physics, or Philosophy) and more specific than the final two years of secondary school currently are. Afterwards, students could go to the regular university with a more consistent and focused presentation. For people who aren't college inclined, they could use those two years in a trade school.
    3. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is it really a net positive for science if it gives a very skewed version of what science is and how science works?

      My daughter got into Discovery's shows about fishes, and now sincerely wants to become a marine biologist so she can learn more about them. Yeah, I'd say it's a net positive.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by penix1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've toyed with ideas about programs that would be more corporately focused. For example, what if student loan recipients were chosen by companies? The company would be on the hook for hiring the student after graduation. The student would be responsible for maintaining good grades in a major approved by the company (note: students would be able to pick the company that offered a major that they wanted). Students who flunk out, change majors (without a new sponsor), or who decide not to work for their sponsor have to pay the loan back. If the company cuts back staff and does not hire the student, then the company eats the loan. If the company hires the student, the company is assumed to have adjusted the student's pay appropriately. After some number of years, the student will finish the loan period and can switch companies without paying back the loan.


      There are many problems with this approach. First, fields seen as "not profitable" by corporate leaders would suffer greatly. Fields such as paleontology, philosophy, history and even pure mathematics would go the way of the dodo bird. Next, those who wanted one of those unpopular majors would be forced into a government student loan that has dwindling users meaning the cost would go through the roof (as if it isn't already there) simply because nobody except those unpopular majors are getting them. Lastly, the whole concept of "general education" would die because companies wouldn't pay for classes that don't directly relate to whatever job they have lined up for the student. That is just a small sample of the problems. I''m sure others can think of more.
      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    5. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by cp.tar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And if you really think that those 'easy' courses are easy, you should try a few of the upper level courses in a subject you don't like. Then you'll see what 'easy' really is...

      Here, here!

      My majors (well, if I were studying in the USA, they would be called majors) are English, Linguistics and Information Science, all with a reputation of being "easy".
      Information Science, the way it is taught here, really is an easy major, no question there.
      Linguistics is a field that is relatively obscure and, in a small country such as Croatia, not very profitable.
      As for English — well, everyone speaks English, so everyone can teach English and everybody can be a translator or even an interpreter. Yet for some reason most of them would still make a mistake such as "here, here!" instead of "hear, hear!" (yeah, that was on purpose), or even "shoe, shoe!" instead of "shoo! shoo!" (I kid you not).

      I dropped out from Electrical Engineering and Computer Science once upon a time and switched to these "easy" majors, and let me tell you: the only subject that really is easy is the one you enjoy doing. I flunked certain courses in EE and CS even though some of my colleagues, who subsequently graduated, would come to me for explanations — I was simply no longer interested in doing the hard work necessary to pass the exams. And even now, studying the "easy stuff", I see very few people really good at it.

      It's all easy if you don't look harder into it.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    6. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wish the fundies would do what Jesus did. You know, getting hung up on a cross and dying.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    7. Re:Don't let facts get in the way of good fun by Jerry · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What James Burke pointed out was that the difference between Science and Humanities is that Science is involved with discovering that which has never been known before, while Humanities is merely the re-arrangement of previously expressed thoughts.

      A friend of mine was working toward a Masters in English. I was working toward a Masters in Biochemistry. After the graduation we compared our theses. Hers was 350 pages and took her one year to write. Mine was 52 pages long. She asked how I could get by "so easily" with only a 52 page thesis. I showed her one page on which was the elucidation of a new chemical which was a non-toxic, broad-spectrum anti-biotic active at 1 mg/L, 3-Amino-3,4-diHydrox-carbostyril. (It's been over 40 years, I hope I remembered that correctly!) "See that page?", I asked. "It took a full year to be able to write that one page alone".

      While the pharmaceuticals looked at that compound they did not market it because they discovered that my research was public domain because the Welch Foundation Research grants (The Grape people) are all public domain.

      I also pointed out that if ANY other researcher published ahead of me I would have to go back to square one and start over because my work would no longer have been original. (The only way she would have to start over was if she was caught plagiarizing but then she could never start over unless another school accepted her, which is doubtful.)

      --

      Running with Linux for over 20 years!

  28. Bull. People want "Truth". by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2, Informative
    Science doesn't give them the "Truth" they want, i.e., eternal forever truth. It's not "nice" to talk about, but intelligence follows a bell curve, and half the population, by definition, is below average, that's why average is "average". Yes, there is a huge flat part of the curve, which is where most of the population resides. But there's a good solid percentage that is stupid and clueless. Proof? Bush's popularity is at 19%. That means about 1 out of 5 people think he's OK, even after ALL the obvious horseshit that idiot has done, almost 1 out of 5 think he's OK.

    There are other examples that are not political - a lot of the "safety reminders" on products come to mind. For an amusing view on this, I'd recommend 2 the Ranting Gryphon's rant on America. He's a knucklehead, but he's not an idiot and he's funny.

    I read somewhere recently that a recent study determined that 25% of the American public sincerely doesn't want to think. They sincerely want to be told what to do and what to think. That they tend to be religious only makes sense. The problem is these people don't want SCIENTIFIC truth, which is always tentative and only true until proven otherwise. This is especially so with the larger questions - where did life start, how did the universe come to be, etc. Sure, we have scientific ideas, but they tend to change over time, and that is something these dunderheads can't cope with. They need UNCHANGING ABSOLUTE TRUTH (tm), and if it comes from some nonsensical piece of crap written by obscure semiliterate Israeli goatherders 3000 years ago, all the better.

    Seriously - people don't want science. They want TRUTH, and scientific truth just doesn't cut it - it requires a sense of doubt, and that is something their 1/2 watt brains can't seem to muster. Things are VERY VERY bad, and they are not getting better, and odly, science isn't doing it for them.

    Why? Because for every bible thumping retard, there's a dozen who go along with it because it works. How?

    1. day care
    2. community
    3. elder care
    4. entertainment
    5. The Club

    thee are more than that - many more - but churches provide things in the USA that secular society doesn't, and it's the "glue" type things that are not only valuable, but REQUIRED to keep a society together. Example: if you don't have much family in the area (and given the mobile nature of the USA, who does...) you need a baby sitter. Well, so and so from church has a teenager... You need to get some food to granny, but aren't goign to be able to do it. Call so and so from church who lives near her. They owe you a favour anyway... And ten there are the church picnics where people get together and the kids play and it's a nice way to blow a sunday afternoon. And then there's the church youth groups where the kids learn abstinence and practice giving blow jobs. It goes on and on. Yes, it is horrible, yes it is stupid, but in its own stumpy retarded way, it WORKS as long as people don't think too much or often about what the fuck it's all really about or for. THAT requires DOUBT, and that leads to SCIENCE.

    So, I don't think tarting up science is going to amount to a hill of beans as long as American society spends half its wealth on the military industrial complex, a quarter on the infrastructure, and some tiny amount on culture and the things that make culture work. Other societies don't have this problem. The USA does, and as long as secular society refuses to step up to the plate and provide the REQUIRED social services for a functioning society, religion will be there to fill in the gap and own the minds and hearts of the retarded half of America.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
    1. Re:Bull. People want "Truth". by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Part of me wants to respond with, "Fucking 'A'!" and another part, the older and more mature part says, "You're right, but it's important to remember that even self-destructive choices which make us crazy to watch unfold are nonetheless valid choices. The best you can do is keep speaking truth, and do it in a way which isn't vengeful.

      I've watched friends become church-goers; kneel before a priest and promise to believe in biblical claims. How can anybody "promise" to believe anything? Isn't belief the final product after a process observational and logical cross analysis has taken place? All you can realistically promise to believe is what your mind tells you is true. And since we are constantly learning, then we cannot promise, ever, that our belief system will not change when new information enters our awareness. Such promises can only be kept if we effectively stop learning and stop cross analyzing. --So either my friend was just nodding and repeating what he was told to say at his religious confirmation ceremony without thinking about it, or he was actually really promising to limit his rational thought processes to only those which would allow continued "belief" in biblical doctrine; a virtual lobotomy. Either way, it was a very disheartening event to witness; this is a guy who is otherwise smart and aware and caring. Luckily, it's possible to change your mind, and so all I can do is continue being myself and allow him to grow as he best sees fit. But it has been a challenge to remain respectful.

      I'd been invited to his confirmation and he really wanted me to be there, so I went. It was my first time inside a church in many years, and I was reminded again why I cannot stand religion. --I was the only person, I think, in a church filled with almost my entire community, sitting there thinking, "This is all absolutely fucking insane. All these people are crazy! Aren't they hearing this stuff? Don't they SEE what is going on here?" --I've read the bible, and I've studied the other various religions, I know how cults work, I know how social control works, I know how mind-programming works, and I know enough psychology to know how and why people can be seduced, or worse, how (as you point out), they WANT to be seduced. I can tear the whole thing apart like the sand castle that it is, and I've done this over and over. Anybody with a brain can do it; it's fish in a barrel stuff.

      But I held back on that day. I'd been invited by my friend, who knows full well my views on this, so all I could do was agree to watch him do this thing.

      Brrr. I'm sorry. I'm venting.

      Or perhaps I should say. . .

      Fucking 'A'.


      -FL

  29. Re:immunization by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do I have to pay for someone's placebo habit?

    Presumably because they're cheaper than real medicine.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  30. Jocks rule, geeks lose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How many of your local papers had big articles about high school seniors signing letters of intent to attend one college or another on the football team?

    How many had articles about students being accepted to academically prestigious schools (e.g. MIT, CalTech, etc.)?

    How much funding is there for new locker room equipment? How much for science labs? (my daughter's high school still has the lab benches installed when the school was built 30 years ago.. they also have artificial turf in the football stadium.)

  31. Re:Just do what Global Warming Advocates Do by Jarnin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I just don't believe that there is incontrovertible evidence that climate change is man-made.
    The whole "man-made" argument is crap. It was a way to add doubt to the "global warming" statement, which wouldn't be changed even if man wasn't spewing CO2 and Methane into the atmosphere. The fact is the planet is getting warmer. The fact is man has contributed (a lot) to that warming. Instead of playing the blame game for the last decade and a half, politicians on both sides should have been acting on the data. Then again we've only just recently gotten politicians old enough to remember learning about global warming in school, which might explain the sudden sense of urgency.

    I do believe the climate is changing. I see enough anecdotal evidence alone to nearly convince myself.
    Don't believe it: Know it. Read up on the subject from a wide array of sources and make your own conclusion. When you say "I do believe" you're saying "I haven't actually looked into it, but someone I trust told me so."

    The cause is now a political agenda.
    It's always been a political agenda since that's the only way anything will be done about it. The Kyoto Protocol was signed by governments, not scientists.
    It sounds more like you don't like the side that's cheering that agenda, so this ends up a case of guilty by association.
  32. Re:That's part of the problem... by Metasquares · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "I'll never understand it" is the typical reply when I show someone one of my papers, and many of these same papers were praised by reviewers as "well-written". I attempt to clarify, and they dismiss it out-of-hand. Part of the problem is the requirement that scientific language must possess a fairly high degree of sophistication to be published - academic writing is very far from the 5th grade level you're supposed to generally write at to be understood. You can't cater to both the reviewers and the general public, it seems.

    I don't talk down to people I show my research, but the very act of presenting the research to them in its unadulterated form is tantamount to talking down without saying anything. For that matter, a lot of scientists won't get much of it either, but there's some sort of unwritten rule that says you're supposed to act as if you understand everything written in any paper you ever read on the first run-through - I guess it's there to preserve scientists' egos or something :)

  33. Obscurantism by Dirck_the_Noorman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obscurantism (from the Latin obscurans, "darkening") is the practice of deliberately preventing the facts or full details of something from becoming known. There are two common senses of this: (1) opposition to the spread of knowledge--a policy of withholding knowledge from the general public; and (2) a style (as in literature or art) characterized by deliberate vagueness or abstruseness. One serious problem is scientists (and policy makers) deliberately misleading people with pseudo-science. Scientists regularly use their credentials and objective observers to try to promote their own political or ideological agendas. The solution to this part of the problem isnt just better education for the public - its the scientific community doing a better job of policing itself. For example, anyone claiming "the debate is over" on an area of active scientific dispute should be ignored. Same goes for anyone claiming consensus=science. http://tinyurl.com/23p4la Not surprisingly, these ostensibly credentialed snake oil salesmen are most often found at the intersection of public policy.

    1. Re:Obscurantism by philspear · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While we can definitely spot a phony in our own fields, our policing is somewhat toothless in the public sphere.

      If Dr. Smith from Bob Jones university gets on Fox news and says "Stem cells are made of ground up newborn babies and have absolutely no scientific merit, they just like killing babies," I can write angry letters but I can't actually arrest him (legally). There's no recourse there.

      The poisonous lies are already out there, readily absorbed by anyone who is inclined to be opposed to stem cells because their pastor says they're wrong, cementing their opinion into place. Even if someone competent were to appear on that same show and immediately point out the flaws with that, people would walk away with what they wanted, which is not always the correct rebuttal. They'll remember "Stem cells are babies! That's terrible! Ought to be a crime!" And they'll vote.

      Also, I think saying "anyone claiming 'the debate is over' on an area of active scientific dispute should be ignored" is pretty circular. Furthermore, debates are often over on a serious academic level while to non-academics the shouting match has just begun. Evolution is a good example of that. The debate is over, but the fundamentalists though will continue to argue for years to come.

      As for consensus, most of the public won't spend more than 5 minutes thinking about something. It would be great if we could get them to realize the truth in scientific facts through education, but if you try to teach someone about the fundamentals of natural selection, walk them through the proof, they're going to change the channel rapidly and still be swayed the other way. If you point out that 99.999% of scientists agree on natural selection, they're going to be resistant to that .001% and christian fundamentalists.

  34. Socrates was right by MagikSlinger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The clear message of the session was that a command of facts is never going to be good enough to convince most segments of the public, whether they're parents or Congress. How the information is conveyed can matter more than its content, and different forms of communication may be necessary for different audiences."

    Translation: Sophistry trumps logic in public debate.

    --
    The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Socrates was right by DigiShaman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With programs like 3.2.1. Contact, Mr wizard's World, Bill Nye The Science Guy, and Myth Busters; Socrates would've been proud!

      Also worth noting, he would be crying in shame if he saw how our public educational system was ran...like a prison.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  35. Exudes a sense... by gmuslera · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... is a big problem. Your report could look honest, open, have some humor etc etc, and that will have nothing to do with the fact that it is good or bad science. You can even honestly think that your are an expert in whatever topic is about. But still, it could be very wrong. As in the universe there is no single atom of justice (Pratchett dixit), the same goes for that kind of bells and whistles you want to see in the "truth" (or how it is presented). Wonder how much scientific reports presenting that the earth were flat, or the center of the universe, or that we were created by a superior being had all those attributes, even with the addendum of being of "common sense" at that time.

    Still is pending how you distinguish good from bad science, of both can be presented in similar ways. Maybe some trusted authority/organization/etc can say that it is good, or at least, that the followed methodology is right.

  36. There have always been stupid people by MC2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is not a new problem. People have always been ignorant of science. The current trend actually seems to be going in the right direction. These days there are far less people burned for being witches than in the past. Ignorance is a human flaw, and it can never be completely eradicated. I'm not saying that ignorance towards science isn't a problem, just that when you look at the big picture, the world is much better off today than ever before.

  37. Re:immunization by AJWM · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are serious questions regarding the safety of immunizations, especially regarding thimerosal preservatives.

    Thimerosal preservatives haven't been used in vaccines for children in years. Long enough, in fact, that the much ballyhooed (but never demonstrated) link between that and autism has been disproven because autism rates haven't decreased since the discontinuance of thimerosal.

    --
    -- Alastair
  38. Re:immunization by dbIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unfortunately this is not longer the case. It is also the case that a naturapath may pay as much and spend as much time for their certificate as an educated medical professional. It is a very worrying series of confidence tricks that is being perpetrated on students as well as the sick. To be quite serious a roleplaying game book contains more credible information on herbs than some of the stuff these people are given to read.

  39. Re:One name: Isaac Asimov by AJWM · · Score: 3, Funny

    Clearly we should find a way for Britney Spears to popularize good science.

    What, you mean like Britney Spears' Guide to Semiconductor Physics?

    --
    -- Alastair
  40. Re:immunization by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is that it goes both ways. If you look at the data on the chicken pox vaccine, it is clear that it was pushed through for profit reasons and not because of good science. So, should we mock the people that did or did not get their kid the chicken pox vaccine that lead to their death, or at the very least didn't prevent it. Now, I'm not saying that all vaccines are bad, but if a more suspicious individual than me took a look at the chicken pox vaccine, I can certainly understand why they would start getting nervous about other vaccines.

  41. Just heard a talk from Henry Jenkins by csoto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    See http://www.henryjenkins.org/aboutme.html for bio. It was an interesting "invitation" for academics (scientists) to start blogging. Essentially, it's a different sort of "review" that helps academics write about their work in a more approachable fashion. Of course, the danger is to not presume to "dumb down" the research, but rather using the real-time feedback of the online community (whatever nerds happen to follow your field or recognize you as an expert in the field) to massage your message to assure it's understood correctly. He's an interesting speaker, but then again, he's an expert in "media" so, you'll find a lot of stuff that basically makes a lot of (cynical) nerds tune out...

    --
    There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
  42. Re:immunization by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Uh huh. Sure it is. Got any real references? You talk about "scientific realities" but I don't see any peer reviewed references. Even if you come up with a bad vaccination that might do harm to a small minority of recipients, occasionally (which happens - we just had a bad batch of mumps vaccine during an outbreak about three months ago), that is a LONG way from showing that getting vaccinated in general is a bad idea. Please note the conspicuous absence of polio (which can cause paralysis to the point where the victim may not be able to breathe unassisted), rubella, (which causes all sorts of nasty effects if a pregnant woman gets it), smallpox (which kills or maims), measles (estimated to have killed 200 million worldwide in the last 150 years), and mumps (can cause infertility and hearing loss). Yes, those are wikipedia articles. Yes, each one references the important statements with multiple peer reviewed sources.

    Take mumps for example (probably the least dangerous of the group). In that outbreak I mentioned, with the tainted vaccine, there were three people who had mild allergic reactions. No long term damage. The nasty side effects from mumps are fairly rare, but without a vaccine the disease used to be VERY common, so those rare complications affected a good number of people. Far more than are hurt (even in minor ways) by the vaccine itself.

    I realise I'm probably wasting my time replying, but you never know.

  43. Bring science to the people... by darekana · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At CureHunter we try to bring "Evidence Based Medicine" to the people.
    Data mining and mapping peer-reviewed research to find all the effective treatment options for any given disease.

    Taking "obesity" as an example, you can quickly see strong relationships with "insulin" and "exercise".
    And in a few clicks you can read the supporting article abstracts.

    Whether or not average people want to read scientific journal articles is debatable, but we can cut through the pharma marketing noise and bring them the sourced research that matters to them.

    With goal seeking algorithms and peer-reviewed source data I think information overload and Google spam can be fought.

  44. Geek to geek by R3d+Jack · · Score: 4, Insightful
    combined with an apathetic and undereducated public lead to widespread ignorance

    Would you listen to someone who views you in that way?

    People don't listen to geeky experts because
    1. The average person has much greater emotional intelligence than the average geek. I had to learn that the hard way. We think we are communicating factually, and the average Joe is hearing something completely different, because he is listening on a broader and higher level. The things he is hearing don't invite trust.
    2. Experts are so 1950's. I grew up in the 60's, when "Question Authority" was a radical slogan to put on your bumper. Now days, no one accepts authority automatically, but I remember when they did. Bottom line, the experts put forth a lot of bad information that led many people to do things they deeply regretted. Remember the insulin treatments in "A Beautiful Mind"? That's why I don't trust experts, either.
    3. People learned long ago that experts are just as political and dogmatic as fundamentalists, and they can be just as misguided.
    BTW, some of the postings make me embarrassed to be a geek. I don't see disrespect as a sign of intelligence.
  45. Re:easy mode by Samarian+Hillbilly · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which is why the should teach scientific method in school and not just scientific "facts" (which change all the time anyways, as they should). For most people science is "what most scientists believe", or worse, "what the press thinks scientists believe", as opposed to a very successful method for uncovering the laws of nature.

  46. Re:immunization by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You don't seem to understand the problem at all. The problem isn't that the chicken pox vaccine causes a small amount of side effects. The problem is that the vaccine DELAYS infections of chicken pox. With polio, even if the vaccine only delays the desease, you are better off being paralized as an adult is better than as a child. Every day you don't have the desease is a win. Chicken pox on the other hand is a major childhood illness, but if delayed into adulthood becomes seriously life threatening. Your comment that children who get chicken pox would "presumably died anyway" is exactly the kind of belief in bad science that you are complaining about. Catching chicken pox as an otherwise healthy child is less dangerous than playing high school football. On the other hand, if people do not regularly get their vaccine, they massivly increase the risk getting the disease as an adult, which is truely life threatening. The problem isn't that there is contaminated chicken pox vaccines. The problem is that the specific vaccine is a trade of short term profits and saving a week of hassle for a very serious threat to life as an adult.

    So, given your post, you are clearly a victim of bad science.

  47. Mythbusters! by slashbart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Mythbusters team attempts to show scientific reasoning, variable elimination, repeatability and other tenets of doing science. They also show the joy of it. And then they blow stuff up, which is enjoyable in itself :-)

    Many of the 'real' science programs on TV spend far less time on explaining the process of science, and instead present the subject (whatever it is), as a sequence of 'facts', with little discussion.

    I really think that Mythbusters is probably the best science promotion show on TV.

  48. Creationism is an insult to reason and rationality by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Probably the most misleading instance where science has been ignored or seriously damaged is the teaching of creationism in science courses or downgrading of evolution by christians who do not like it because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. To teach creationism as coming anywhere near science or being something of which there is any real positive evidence of it is simply lying to children. Evolution is an extremely well supported scientific theory that has a large amount of physical evidence to back it up. Science must be based on physical evidence, not religious superstitions and fantasies. To mention creationism in the same breath as science and suggest it is a competitor to evolution is an insult to everything that science is and that which has made so much progress to our understanding the world better and getting the truths about the universe. If religious fantasy had prevailed, we would still think the earth was flat and stars were little fires several miles above the surface, and that the edge of the earth dropped off into an abyss populated by monsters who ate ships that dared fall into it. Creationism like these theories should be in social studies where it belongs or used only as an example of old, outdated absurd ideas that science has proven wrong.

  49. Agenda driven 'Science' by ku4tp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In this long list of comments, if this point has already been made and I missed it, please accept my apologies. The main outlet for scientific information is what most call 'main stream media'. As long as those in that industry have an agenda (and make no mistake - they do) you will get anything that is reported spun to their way of thinking no matter what the facts are. They are not the only ones, of course. The so called 'expert scientists' also have their own agendas and most have nothing to do with advancing science. So any findings they may produce will also get skewed so as to further those agendas, whatever they may be. How do you get integrity in these two fields? Many claim it but few seem to deliver it. And many who do are silenced by the agenda driven. These are normal human failings. I don't have a solution. But until you can insure what the public digests is not tainted with personal opinions and agendas you will never get what you are striving for - the acceptance of real science by that public.

  50. The Metric System by toddhisattva · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think a major barrier to science education in America is our refusal to adopt (what is here called) the metric system.

    "Gram" and "millimeter" may as well be Martian.

    There's an advantage to reporting your mass in kilograms - the numbers are smaller so you feel better about them!