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Jodrell Bank May Close Down

Anonymous Astronomer writes "MERLIN, the UK's only radio astronomy facility, is facing closure following the results of a Programmatic Review carried out by the Science and Technology Facilities Council, the results of which were announced on Monday. The review placed MERLIN and the upgraded telescope e-MERLIN, due to go online later this year following an investment of £8M, in the low-priority category under serious threat of funding cuts. The upgraded array of telescopes, situated across the UK, will be 30 times more sensitive than the current array and will be a unique facility for observing distant objects and helping us understand the universe. If these cuts go ahead however, not only MERLIN but the entire Observatory including the iconic Lovell telescope, based at Jodrell Bank in Cheshire, will be under threat of closure."

53 comments

  1. Rather than close them down ... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

    ... why not let the public (volunteers) operate them?

    Or divert some of that money from setting up and monitoring 20 million CCD cameras to looking outside the goldfish bowl ...

    1. Re:Rather than close them down ... by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Or divert some of that money from setting up and monitoring 20 million CCD cameras to looking outside the goldfish bowl ...
      That gives me an idea-

      Perhaps astronomers could happen across a suspected terrorist or two, out in the void...
      --
      "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
    2. Re:Rather than close them down ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      This was modded flamebait? Who gave Ann Coulter mod points???

  2. A Scandle (ass candle) by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A pathetic decision, especially considering the relatively tiny cost of maintaining the facility.

    I live an hour or so away, and in addition to the excellent science conducted, it is a magnet for school kids for a hundred miles around, who are pretty much guaranteed a trip to its brilliant, inspirational visitors' center.

    If this closure goes ahead, they are giving up so much to save so little.

    --
    "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
    1. Re:A Scandle (ass candle) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live an hour or so away, and in addition to the excellent science conducted, it is a magnet for school kids for a hundred miles around, who are pretty much guaranteed a trip to its brilliant, inspirational visitors' center.
      If you live only an hour away, then why are you unable to spell 'centre' and 'arse' correctly?
    2. Re:A Scandle (ass candle) by aproposofwhat · · Score: 1
      Next thing you see will be the banning of dancing, then a ban on Christmas

      Still, I keep my bottle of Cristal and my dancing feet for the news of Maggie's death :o)

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
    3. Re:A Scandle (ass candle) by aproposofwhat · · Score: 1
      Americans are allowed to live in Manchester - in fact we'd welcome any and all who have had enough of Bush and his cronies to the fragrant streets of Moss Side and Rusholme, not to mention the peculiar delights of Gorton.

      The curry mile - now that would put the fear up them!

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
  3. It's standard negotiating tactic in the UK by ribuck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's standard negotiating tactic in the UK, to list the most popular projects at the bottom of the funding list. They are sure to be saved (in one form or another), and all the other projects listed above them will also be safe.

    Our council does the same. Every time they want to cut taxes, they threaten to cut the festivals (which consume the tiniest pittance of the budget). No-one wants the festivals to die, so the council gets to raise the taxes. If the council proposed to cut some of their unpopular expenditure, they would never get to increase taxes.

    1. Re:It's standard negotiating tactic in the UK by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Let me guess...one Sir Humphrey is a member of the council, am I right?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  4. Awww.... by Aegis+Runestone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is sad. Extremely sad. The destruction of the pursuit of knowledge due to money. Now, one may argue that we have lost so much money due to broken down space exploration robots, like a few to Mars, and some Shuttle explosions which also slew the innocent crew inside; however, observatories, telescopes and other ground-based astronomical projects, if any, should not be undermined or removed by money.

    I agree with one the posters about volunteer work. If people love the project enough, this is their chance to get it by supporting MERLIN.

    --
    -Aegis Runestone-
  5. Wow... by InfinityWpi · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Looks like the housing crisis in the US is even causing problems for UK banks... sorry about that, mates...

    1. Re:Wow... by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      What's with the humourless mods? At least it wasn't a Superman joke.

  6. No Surprise... by owlnation · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Since Tony Blair's election, the UK has firmly and clearly been headed straight for a new Dark Ages. This is just another sign of the impending apocalypse.

    The fat, retarded, drunken, violent UK youth of today will have no need of telescopes in the future -- other than to spy on each other, of course.

    If you are a scientist, if you have a brain, make plans to leave the UK -- it's your only hope.

    1. Re:No Surprise... by Zedekiah · · Score: 1

      Sure, a country full of idiots, that's a brilliant idea. Go ahead and leave, meanwhile, I (one of these "UK Youth of today" you mention) will be trying to actually change things here.

      --
      What I wouldn't do for the ability to mod "-1, Plain Wrong"
    2. Re:No Surprise... by Lanarion · · Score: 1

      Go 'hug a hoodie' and try and educate them. See whether you get knifed first, or whether they mug you and THEN steal your stuff.

    3. Re:No Surprise... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zedekiah did not specify _how_ he was changing things? Maybe he shoots at hoodies with a ricin-bead-loaded airgun?

    4. Re:No Surprise... by clickety6 · · Score: 1

      If you are a scientist, if you have a brain, make plans to leave the UK -- it's your only hope.

      and go where...?

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
    5. Re:No Surprise... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck modded this crap "insightful"? It's flamebait, pure and simple. Only the most credulous of fools, reading exclusively the gutter press, would ever come up with such crazy ideas. So, yeah, occasionally a young person drinks too much and then knifes someone. This is so rare that every time it happens it's front-page news. By comparison with e.g. the USA, where city streets are roamed by gangs high on crack and armed to the teeth with firearms, Britain is paradise. But you don't hear Americans claiming that the misbehaviour of a handful of youths signals the onset of Armageddon, possibly because the American press still remembers the meaning of "patriotism", and is willing to look for the good as well as the bad in their country.

    6. Re:No Surprise... by mazarin5 · · Score: 1

      ...and then posts it to youtube?

      --
      Fnord.
    7. Re:No Surprise... by mazarin5 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why, the US of course!

      --
      Fnord.
    8. Re:No Surprise... by Elky+Elk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm a UK scientist and I'm not leaving because I don't spend all day reading the Daily Mail

  7. Jodrell Bank by jd · · Score: 4, Informative
    Was, for a very long time, the world's largest steerable single-dish radio telescope. In fact, for a long time, it was the largest radio telescope. The dish is amazingly precise. Even before an upgrade in 2001, large parts of the surface had defects averaging a millimeter or less. A photo of some of the worst-hit areas show what the weather will do. Although they don't show the defects on the current dish, they do show what the new panels look like in-situ.

    But the big dish isn't the only thing at the Jodrel Bank facility. Their homepage mentions that the Square Kilometer Array Programme Development Office is located there. This is an international project of enormous significance. (Imagine being able to see an Earth-sized planet, orbiting at 1 AU from its sun, 100 light-years away, and have enough data to take measurements of what gasses are in the atmosphere.)

    Jodrell Bank also has cultural significance and references pepper the British conciousness. Had he not pursued music, Brian May would have been the one slamming the UK Government's move from the offices of Jodrell Bank.

    Then there's the research exchange program with Europe. European countries trade time and access at a facility in one country for access to another facility somewhere else, for free. Closing Jodrell Bank will mean British radio astronomers have nothing to trade and will need to pay to access telescopes elsewhere in the world. Access other countries will still get for free. This means research grants will be worth less to someone from Britain than to someone in another country. This will worsen the "brain drain" - nobody wants to live in a country where they can't afford to hold a job. You will have noticed that British scientists are doing far less high-energy physics since they shut the nuclear structure facility in Daresbury (home of Lewis Carrol, interestingly). It's because they can't afford the prices they now have to pay. From free to thousands of dollars an hour, without a single penny more in grant money to cover it.

    Finally, there's the secondary impact. It'll likely cause several departments at the University of Manchester to shut their doors forever. Cheshire is a largely agricultural, impoverished region, so the loss of jobs in the community will be severe. Jodrell Bank is also a major tourist icon, which means there's a significant risk tourism will crash in the area - another major source of money. You can only split time on existing telescopes so far, putting astronomers out of work. This is not a degree you can really use to get a job elsewhere. Many existing projects rely on Jodrell Bank as part of a network of telescopes. Losing it will create a lot of ill-will and possibly cost a lot of projects a lot of money in a bid to fill in the data gaps as best they can.

    But, then, why should a White Hall mandarin care about such petty details?

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Jodrell Bank by Degreeless · · Score: 3, Interesting

      All of the above is certainly true but I'd like to add to your excellent points with a little personal flavour.

      As a boy I, like many in the region, went with school to Jodrell Bank and stood in awe, looking at the great dish. In my youthful mind the very thing that this dish represented was alien and strange, but at the same time watching it scour the autumn sky looking for something so distant was awe inspiring. It really fired my brain as I'm sure it did to many others like me and to lose it not just as a telescope, but also as a symbol for British scientific endevour, would be a terrible loss.

    2. Re:Jodrell Bank by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · · Score: 1

      ... Cheshire is a largely agricultural, impoverished region ... Er, so we should worry and the huddled masses of Congleton and Alderley Edge should we? That'll get the Mail readers into line, sure... (for the benefit of anyone outside the UK, parts of this area south of Manchester are among the richest in England). I guess that Jodrell Bank made the Times because people have heard of it (as opposed to something like ALICE, which is arguably far more like to produce interesting science in the next few years, but which most people are unlikely to be able to tell apart from a hole in the ground).

      Seriously, the sad thing here is that as a UK taxpayer I've paid for the development work that's gone into these projects and am now giving away the results of that substantial investment to the other collaborators. It's like building a house jointly with someone else and then saying "Nah - I can't be bothered to put the roof on. You do that and it's all yours".
    3. Re:Jodrell Bank by jd · · Score: 1

      Same here. I also got to go into the control room itself, when I was about 8 or so. Told not to touch any of the switches. If only I'd not listened....

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    4. Re:Jodrell Bank by Speare · · Score: 1

      As an ignorant American youth, the first and only cultural reference I received to Jodrell Bank is the mention of it in the opening of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I figured from context that it's not actually a financial bank, but an observatory of some kind (as they failing to detect the approaching Vogons). Even years later, that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge on it. Thanks for the details.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    5. Re:Jodrell Bank by aproposofwhat · · Score: 1

      Ditto, and on a fine day I could walk up Werneth Low and see Jodrell in the distance - it's a part of my childhood that I'd hate to see go.

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
    6. Re:Jodrell Bank by aproposofwhat · · Score: 1
      I very much doubt that the employees at Jodrell live in Alderley Edge (Congleton has some lower cost housing, so they may live there), but Jodrell Bank has produced some outstanding science over the years, and costs a fraction of the ALICE type extravagance that high energy physicists fetishise about.

      I've paid my taxes in too - but it's spending on multiculturalism, free houses for immigrants and the like that piss me off, not a few quid for a centre of excellence like Jodrell Bank.

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
    7. Re:Jodrell Bank by jd · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure what the origin of the name "Jodrell Bank" is - it's taken from the name of the local town. Placenames in Britain are curious - some that seem "obvious" are actually very old names where the spelling has been corrupted to remain sayable as the language in the region has been replaced. Sometimes, names have gone through up to four or five such corruptions. Occasionally, names will also be back-engineered - the Victorians were notable for that - where a name is modified or replaced to "make sense" with nearby names. And, then, sometimes places are actually relatively modern. You can never be quite sure. (Another poster mentioned Werneth Low. This may seem like an odd name for a hill, but actually "Low" is a corruption of a Celtic name for a type of round burial mound usually built on hills.)

      Jodrell Bank was, I believe, where they first discovered pulsars. There are two dishes for astronomy there - the large Lovell dish and a midsized one. There's also a small radio telescope out front which can be used by visitors. It featured in one episode of the Channel 4 TV gameshow series "Treasure Hunt", where Anneke Rice had to go place to place in a helicopter to obtain clues the contestants had to solve.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  8. Vogon Constructor Fleet by surfinokie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If Joddrell Bank is closed who's going to fail to detect the Vogon's when they show up?

    --
    Chance 'em.
    1. Re:Vogon Constructor Fleet by Jim+Hall · · Score: 1

      Some of you with high-user-IDs may not get the Vogon reference. From The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy:

      "The huge yellow somethings [Vogon Constructor Fleet] went unnoticed at Goonhilly, they passed over Cape Canaveral without a blip, Woomera and Jodrell Bank looked straight through them--which was a pity because it was exactly the sort of thing they'd been looking for all these years"

      IIRC, it's the same line from the radio play, the book, and the TV miniseries. :-)

    2. Re:Vogon Constructor Fleet by jrothwell97 · · Score: 1

      The clue will be when the BBC starts broadcasting poetry in primetime again.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
  9. Ineffective against Vogons by 6350' · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The Guide has already established that Goonhilly and Jodrell Bank perform poorly in real-world situations such as detecting large-scale near-earth-orbit objects. Despite a proposed upgrade, I still have to come down on the side of the STFC review and agree that throwing good money after bad doesn't make any sense.

  10. Not just Jodrell by zrq · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is not just about Jodrell. The funding for a lot of UK astronomy projects is being cut.

    At the moment, no one really seems to know why .
    Disclaimer: I work for one of the projects under threat, so I might be a bit biased.

    1. Re:Not just Jodrell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Astronomers have a nasty habit of detecting space-based weaponry. There IS a master plan for a global fascist state led by the USA with Britain its lapdog, remember?

    2. Re:Not just Jodrell by zrq · · Score: 1

      In which case, they wouldn't have funded the projects in the first place.

      This isn't about deciding not to fund new projects. This is about cutting funding for existing projects (and staff) because someone somewhere got the figures wrong.

  11. That's what they get by Darth · · Score: 3, Funny

    That's what they get for buying all that sub-prime debt. If more of these banks went out of business over it, maybe they'd learn something.

    p.s. I'm kidding. I know this is about radio astronomy and not about a financial institution.

    --
    Darth --
    Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
    1. Re:That's what they get by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Silly me, I actually went there and a guy with a beard loaned me 5 bucks! I guess he didn't have the heart to tell me.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    2. Re:That's what they get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually went there and a guy with a beard loaned me 5 bucks!

      An astronomer with money to loan? Pictures or it never happened.

    3. Re:That's what they get by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      I don't have a photo of the astronomer handing me the money, but here's what I did with it: http://www.phonesexsites.co.uk/images/bigboobs1.jpg

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    4. Re:That's what they get by Firefalcon · · Score: 1

      $5? Well I guess it's only worth £2.50 to us Brits, and it's not like he could spend a five dollar note in the UK...

    5. Re:That's what they get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm certainly impressed that you found one for so cheap, but your sister is going to be pissed when she finds that hidden camera.

    6. Re:That's what they get by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      She was holding the camera between her feet.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  12. Recent upgrades? by IBBoard · · Score: 1

    Haven't they only recently done some work at Jodrell Bank? It might just have been replacing some bearings that support a dish (no small task, but nothing amazingly interesting) but it'd be a shame to lose it.

    I lived the other side of Manchester to Jodrell Bank and visited a few times with family and with school. That and Goonhilly are amazing places for anyone with even a slight scientific interest.

    Also, I've driven past one of the gates recently and I'm sure that the University of Manchester has some stake in it as they have a sign on one of the gates (how much land do they own?!). I wonder what impact it'll have on the new Super-University after they swallowed UMIST.

    1. Re:Recent upgrades? by Elky+Elk · · Score: 1

      None, we have far more financial problems to worry about than JB. Such as the huge budget deficit from building lots of nice new buildings for the arts and humanities people who being in no money.

  13. Petition to save Jodrell Bank by thedeadswiss · · Score: 1

    There's a petition to save Jodrell bank here.