Japan IDs All Its Citizens

Edis Krad writes "While RealID in the US is a threat whose implementation is a ways in the future, the Japanese long ago implemented something similar; and there has been very little complaint raised about it. The Juki Net (Residents Registration Network — link in Japanese) has been silently developing since 1992. The system involves an 11-digit unique number to identify every citizen in Japan, and the data stored against that ID covers name, address, date of birth, and gender. Many Japanese citizens seem to be oblivious that such a government-run network exists. Juki Net had a spotlight shone on it recently because a number of citizens around the country sued against it, citing concerns of information misuse or leakage. And while an Osaka court ruled against the system, the Japanese Supreme Court has just ruled it is not unconstitutional, on the grounds that the data will be used in a bona-fide manner and there's no risk of leakage. While there is a longstanding registration system for us foreigners in Japan, what astonishes me is how the government can secretly implement such a system for its citizens, and how little concern the media and Japanese citizens in general display about the privacy implications."

Comments

Is it that much of a deal?

[jawtheshark]

I live in continental Europe and I have an ID card. I know that exactly the same style of ID cards exists in at least Belgium and Germany. Why is it a problem? You get to use it only when to prove that you're actually you. Like when voting and when I did an exam to try to become a state servant (I failed, if you really want to know.)

I also have a number that uniquely identifies me. It is the equivalent the social security number and it consists of my birthdate in format yyyymmdd followed by a three digit number. Unlike in the US, knowing this number means nothing. It's not secret... It isn't displayed on my ID card though.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[ILuvRamen]

you're right, it's exactly like a social security number. Boy, the article sure is right. I hope they never implement that here in the US! We're just not ready for something like that!

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[fbjon]

It is the equivalent the social security number and it consists of my birthdate in format yyyymmdd followed by a three digit number. Unlike in the US, knowing this number means nothing. Finland, and probably a lot of other countries have something very similar. Here it's ddmmyy-xxxc, where xxx is assigned in birth order with even for females and odd for males, c is a checksum character, and the dash can be (+|-|A) depending on century. These are assigned at birth, so everyone has one of these.

I just don't see how the database in TFA is any different from this or the multitude of population registries that exist all over the world. Can someone enumerate the problems with this, please?

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Firethorn]

I AM an american, and all things aside, I don't really have a problem with a proper national ID system.

All this paranoia about IDs and numbers and such, I have to ask:

1. How many people over the age of 16 or so DON'T have a driver's license or state issued ID card? Heck, even students are getting them today in the form of school IDs. I was issued one in HS, never used it other than to get discounts at a few stores that had discounts for students. I had one for college. I have one for my job.

The problem with using the SSN is that it was never designed to be an ID. There just aren't safeguards on it. By law it WASN'T to be used for all the stuff we use it for today. We'd be better off issuing seperate ID numbers for stuff like credit reports - consisting of the two digit state abbreviation then a set of characters determined by the state. Put it on the ID card. Then, for non-face transactions, have a PIN in place to prove it's yours. To reset the PIN, you'd have to go to the appropriate office that would verify your identity.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[wish bot]

I'd say almost everywhere has something like the. In Australia there is a Tax File Number system. You don't HAVE to provided it when say, opening a bank or starting a new job, but if you don't you're simply taxed at the highest rate. IIRC it replaced a plan to have a national ID system, and it seems to be working out pretty well on a privacy level because it is only related to tax and financial aspects, which is where these system are actually needed and useful.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[maxume]

Would you be comfortable if your card was part of an integrated system that included Belgium and Germany? That's the situation the US faces(in 3 ways: laws vary from state to state, the geographic area involved is large, and the number of people that a unified system needs to support is large). I'm not trying to say whether you should be uncomfortable or not, just pointing out that there are differences to account for when making the comparison.

My biggest objection to programs that unify information and improve database access is that it encourages people to use them in situations where it isn't actually necessary, which then extends problems with that database access into situations where it shouldn't be necessary.

An example would be the treatment that travelers who show identification at airports in the US receive - they are treated as being more 'legitimate' than people who are unwilling or unable to show id, and then subjected to a lower average level of scrutiny. The problem with this is that the cursory checks performed on the id aren't going to detect forgeries or falsely obtained official identification, making the whole process a pointless waste of time.

Falsely obtained official identification also limit the usefulness of using any documentation to 'prove that you are actually you'. An entire system is limited in reliability by the least trustworthy bureaucrat working in it.

Finally, a sort of joking example: Would you expect your wife to sleep with an imposter who had documents proving they were you, or would you expect her to scoff at the documents? Training people to trust the documents in similar situations is scary; I wish I had a better argument against it.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[jawtheshark]

where xxx is assigned in birth order with even for females and odd for males, c is a checksum character, and the dash can be (+|-|A) depending on century. These are assigned at birth, so everyone has one of these.

Hehe, I didn't even want to go down in that level of detail... The nnn at the end of my number (which is oddly enough the phone code of my country) indicates the sex too. In the pattern xyx, is the y is odd, you're male, otherwhise you're female. All these numbers are indeed assigned at birth (in order of birth, AFAIK). On top of that, all people that work in my country also get one. After all, they pay their social security here.

I know quite a lot of details on that number in my country. I was involved in implementing a datanbase that stored medical information about people that had biopsies that were checked for cancer.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[garett_spencley]

My problem is that it's a single point of failure.

It's my understanding that they want to tie bank accounts, driver's license, social insurance / security (I'm Canadian), passport etc. to one single card.

If you lose this card you are completely fsck'd. And if someone wants to steal your identity all they have to do is either steal or forge your card. And before people say that forging cards is theoretically as difficult as forging a credit card I'll just point out that that's extremely little comfort. Forging credit cards is one of the most common credit card scams. All you need is an account number and the PIN and you can make a card to use in any ATM. It won't fool a person but it's not meant to. Since ATM machines can read credit cards all it needs is the magnetic stripe with the account # + PIN encoded on it. With systems designed in such a brain-dead way with a complete lack of thought put into security the idea of a real ID scares the crap out of me because idiots will be designing them and more idiots will be assuring the population that they're hack-proof.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[jawtheshark]

That would really assume everyone would base themselves just on a number. It really isn't like that with national ID cards: you're not going to use an ID card with a picture that doesn't at least resemble you vaguely. Replacing a picture on a stolen card seems nigh to impossible to me. They aren't even comparable with credit cards. Apart from having an ID Card (one of the true ones, like implemented in Japan), I have a drivers license (with a different number) a social security card (with another number) and my bank merely has a photocopy of the ID card I had when I opened the account. Which is (oh, my God!) 15 years ago! T

It really doesn't work that way..... There are surely databases that could connect all of it together, but I have worked for the state and I can assure you: they are so incompetent they won't manage....

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[conufsed]

No its not at all. The only people who see your Tax File number are employers, banks/super funds (people who deal with your money), and the tax office. You don't have to supply your TFN to any of them, and you can calim back any extra tack paid when filing your tax return (where you still dont *have* to give you TFN, it just takes longer), although I admit for most people this isnt practical The scary identifier here is your drivers liscense number, the number of times I've had to supply it, had copies taken of it, is used for all sorts of credit things, and yet changes when you move interstate

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Mr. Slippery]

1. How many people over the age of 16 or so DON'T have a driver's license or state issued ID card?

Few, but some (I doubt many Amish have driver's licenses). But the ID card isn't the problem. It would be entirely possible for the state to issue an ID card which merely associated a name and date of birth with a photo, and had record keeping.

The problem is the ID number assigned on that card, and the tracking database to which it forms the key, and the nefarious uses to which this database can and will be put, ranging from bad cops stalking hotties to presidents tracking and harassing their political opponents.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Original Replica]

It really isn't like that with national ID cards: you're not going to use an ID card with a picture that doesn't at least resemble you vaguely. Replacing a picture on a stolen card seems nigh to impossible to me.

Not so impossible my friend.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[0123456]

"I live in continental Europe and I have an ID card. I know that exactly the same style of ID cards exists in at least Belgium and Germany. Why is it a problem?"

Ask the Jews... well, the ones the German government didn't murder, anyway.

The innocent have nothing to hide, until the day the government turn them into criminals (making merely being alive a capital offence in the case of German Jews); then they suddenly realise why bloated government databases and ID cards were a really bad idea.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[mikael]

The big issue with ID cards isn't that you get an ID card with a serial number, your name and photograph on it. The big problem (at least in the UK), is that all the government databases will be linked together using this information; *EVERTHING* from medical records, property ownership, car ownership, travel history, current residential location, employer, purchase histories (thank you private databases).

There is enough information available for any government employee to determine when you are on holiday or away on a business trip to know when to send their mates round to burgle your home.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[indil]

Based only on the article description, Japanese citizens are being assigned ID numbers, not ID cards. Using an ID card to authenticate yourself works well because it probably has a photo and maybe a fingerprint on it, as well as some other personal information. If someone uses your ID card, it's easy to catch them. On the other hand, using an ID number alone to authenticate yourself is a terrible idea because it's a lot easier to match an ID number with a person than using their ID card. The ID number is treated as a kind of password, as if only you could possibly know your own ID number, despite the fact that you give it to anyone who wants to know who you are (which they assume also proves that you're you). The odds are high that eventually someone, maybe even you, will make a mistake and someone else can then tie you to your ID number.

What's funny is that the U.S. government discourages you from using someone's social security number to both identify them and authenticate them, because of the obvious security problems we see every day. Yet businesses continue to use those numbers for authentication. An easy fix would be for the government to simply publish everyone's SSN at once. Then any business that uses SSNs to authenticate people will be castigated or lose business for being idiots.

I think it would be cool to separate authentication from identification. Everyone gets a unique ID number and chooses a private code that together produce a public code, or maybe many one-time throw-away codes, that you can use to identify yourself without giving away control of your identity.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Anne Honime]

I live in continental Europe and I have an ID card. I know that exactly the same style of ID cards exists in at least Belgium and Germany. Why is it a problem? Ask the Jews... well, the ones the German government didn't murder, anyway.

In France, the situation was totaly opposite. During WWII, under the authority of René Carmille, the SSN was invented to help resistance rise an army if/when the allies would arrive. The germans and french "collaborateurs" never managed to lay their hands on the resulting files, thus had to resort to use many separate police files to hunt after the jews. IDs are only "useful" to nefarious purpose if they link to sensitive data. Name, DOB and gender are not sensitive. But if the governement can then tap into financial records, religion practice, race, sexual orientation, political affiliations, then, it's sure to become a liability.

The ID is not a problem as long as the records kept are accessed on a real "need to know" basis, enforced through a very harsh legislation.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[phulegart]

Here's an Old story (that happened when I was there in Vegas).

http://www.dmvnv.com/news/05-005.htm

The link I provided is from when they recovered the license making equipment and supplies that had been stolen from a DMV. Replacing a picture on an ID card isn't so impossible when you can just make another ID card from scratch with a new picture and someone else's information.

Now, for a number of years in Virginia, your Social Security number was ALSO your driver's license number. Not only that, but your license was on paper, along with another additional information sheet... and all of it was kept in an OPEN clear plastic sleeve. This changed years ago, but as of The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, no state can use a SSN as a Driver's license number.

Most states only require a piece of mail and a birth certificate, in order to get a state issued picture ID. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that you need a picture ID to get a picture ID. So how hard would it be to take someone ELSE's birth certificate and a piece of their mail, and get yourself a new Identity? Sure, there are other measures in place to make it more difficult to get a social security card re-issued, as well as getting into a bank account... but then again...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/20/nyc-bank-lets-wrong-man-w_n_87647.html

There's a story about a man who went to his bank, and the teller assumed by his NAME only, that he was the same man who had opened up a business account with $5 million in it. You see, another man with the same name had indeed opened an account for his business with $5 million in it. The teller insisted that the account was indeed his (the wrong man with the same name), so he withdrew $2 million.

Where were the Picture ID's then?

I'm just adding, not so much refuting you.

Retinal scanning is the way to go.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[maxume]

Where's your argument that they are obviously good? Do you check your wife's identification before you get into bed, or do you use some other trust mechanism?

Inaction at least has parsimony on its side.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[MBC1977]

To me it is a very big deal. Simply, I do not want to be tracked everywhere I go. My personal preference (probably a lot of people's personal preference). The government does not need to know what I am accessing or where i am going 24 /7. If I'm using a government service or such. Sure track THAT usage. But my travel habits, my literary preferences, my financal prowness (or lack thereof) is a PRIVATE matter.

How can one be free, if I'm monitored all of the time, like I if I was in prison. Simple answer, you aren't free if you allow that to happen. (Though one could say they freely put a leash around their necks, willingly).

Its better to be free and struggle, then to be caged and stagnant.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[opec]

it consists of my birthdate in format yyyymmdd followed by a three digit number.

What if there are over 1,000 people with that birth date?

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[JimBobJoe]

An example would be the treatment that travelers who show identification at airports in the US receive - they are treated as being more 'legitimate' than people who are unwilling or unable to show id, and then subjected to a lower average level of scrutiny. The problem with this is that the cursory checks performed on the id aren't going to detect forgeries or falsely obtained official identification, making the whole process a pointless waste of time.

I consider that a minor problem. The more major problem is that the logic that created this security scenario is inherently faulty.

There is no reason why a person with a photo ID card is somehow less dangerous/less risky than a person without a photo ID card. The cheap plastic card does not make the person any safer.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Firethorn]

Heck, I've lived in no less that 6 states. I keep this up I have at least a chance of visiting all 50 in my lifetime.

You might not know this, but the first three numbers in your social identifies where you were born. I was born in a small state(ND), and people spot that I was born there all the time when they spot my social. You wouldn't necessarily get a new number when you move.

Still, what do you expect for less than 30 seconds of thought. I think you're right, a state identifier isn't necessarily needed, but I was figuring on pushing most of the administration down to the states, and that would make issuing the numbers without duplication much easier.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well at least the government got something right- males -are- odd.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[arivanov]

Bulgaria is the same YYMMDDXXXC (Year, Month, Day, Unique ID, Checksum. It doubles up as social security number and a tax reference. It is also the reference used for any unpaid fines, property transfer, contracts, etc. This has the strange side effect that you have to pay all of your parking tickets before selling a car or buying a house for example. Otherwise you cannot register the contract with the notary and the transaction is null and void.

It also now have a proper cryptographic ID format (non-mandatory and opt-in) and you can sign any document with a digital signature.

You can also get any of your ID documents reissued in any police station in 24h and for 3h in Sofia. Everything is in the database.

At the same time the level of privacy and the level of ID theft risk is way lower than in the US or UK. There are controls on who has access to the database and for what purposes. You do not have to send "sufficient identifying information" every few months just to get things done and digging through your rubbish does not yield sufficient identifying information to steal your identity.

Overall - it is a classic example that there is nothing wrong with a correctly implemented national ID system. It can actually improve your privacy instead of eating into it.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Fri13]

Finland and Sweden was ahead in the whole census. Finland and Sweden started census in about middle of year 1600. and year 1750 already had every person in register.
At leat on start of year 2001, Finland and Denmark were only countries on world what could make census just with a computers and there were no need to go by door to door or using a mixed other kind databases together.

And at least on Finland, Civil register includes a lots of other information too than just name, address, phonenumber, education, marriage status. But it includes information of buildings and all kind other stuff what helps to build charts almost everything.

http://www.vaestorekisterikeskus.fi/vrk/home.nsf/www/populationinformationsystem
http://www.maistraatti.fi/en/index.html
http://tilastokeskus.fi/index_en.html

And even that Finland collects this kind adata alots, most important thing is that there are laws for individuals to protect their indentity.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[vidarh]

Norway has a similar system: birthdate + 5 digits. The number itself identifies only your birthdate and gender. However it's used as an unique key for the passport registers, taxes, bank accounts etc.. The register used for tax purposes also contains the current address of every Norwegian citizen living in Norway (and the foreign address of any Norwegian citizen still paying tax to Norway for whatever reason).

The number is never meant to be sufficient for identification, and I've never seen it used as such in cases where there's a high fraud risk. When dealing with your bank, for example, you'll need to present an ID document. Many of those ID documents will have your national id number printed on it, to tie your identity to the number.

It does potentially allow a lot of databases to be combined. However, at the same time Norway has some of the strictest data privacy laws in the world, and they are strictly enforced. In reality the cases of abuse have been extremely limited.

Yes, it does mean that if you want to "disappear" from the government you can't legally do so - you risk a fine, though in reality the odds of being fined are small (if you evade taxes and they come looking for you and don't find you at your stated residence, perhaps, but then you're already in bigger trouble). Presumably if you badly want to hide from the government, a fine isn't really going to stop you.

Yes, it also means the government have an easier job tieing your national id to your bank accounts and other registers to get a larger picture. However you'll find that in countries like the UK, that doesn't have a national ID number (yet), the government have become very sophisticated in terms of matching up data about people based on addresses. I know for a fact that HM Revenue & Customs (UK equivalent of the IRS) does this with a very high level of accuracy (same goes for financial institutions etc. - the assumption is that if they have your name and your last three years of addresses, they'll be able to build a continuous financial history, and it works extremely well without any kind of unique id number).

An id number is just a convenience. If someone wants to combine data on you from disparate sources, they WILL manage to find ways of matching up the data. The only "benefit" you get from not having an id number is that it's slightly harder. But you also run the risk that it's far easier to make a mistake and tie your data to someone elses in ways that cause you problems.

The id number is exactly the wrong thing to focus on. It's how data on you is combined, protected and analyzed that decide whether or not you have a privacy problem, not whether or not you have an id number. The id number just simplifies what's still a relatively trivial job of linking data together.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[Z00L00K]

It's not the idiots designing them that you shall worry about - it's the idiots checking the ID:s that you shall worry about.

Put the responsibility of a fraud onto the person that checks the ID:s. And never forget that an ID card is just the key to unlock more verification data of an individual - it's no proof of validity itself.

And you will still have a different linkage to your bank account etc. It's no real difference between a national and a state issued ID card. The state issued cards may actually be worse since it's harder to spot forgeries.

There is actually a reason why all dollar bills of today look identical. Earlier there were several different printers for the dollar bills and that was heaven for forgers since a dollar bill produced in California could be easily passed in New York regardless of if it was a forgery or not.

Of course that's my $2 thoughts about it.

Re:Is it that much of a deal?

[fbjon]

Out of curiousity, what would happen to a transsexual's id number there? Seems like the best that could be done is to give them a new number as if they were born at the very end of the day... which could be strange if they were born at any other time, but I suppose it wouldn't be the only reason one might have to be assigned such a number. Regardless, it seems unwise to encode one's gender into an id number. Good question! I checked it out, and the Supreme Administrative Court decided in 1988 that the ID can be changed for transsexuals. There are about 5-7 cases each year. Apparently, a person's gender is also currently stored in the registry alongside the other info, though it's not mandated by law.

Oh noes! An 11-digit number!

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Get real. You have to register yourself at your local city office, so the authorities already know all about you. You also have to have a medical insurance ID. You also need to be registered at the tax office.

Privacy concerns in this day and age are ridiculous. You haven't any.

Fighting the tide only works when you're on the shore. When you're at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, there isn't very much you can do.

Re:Oh noes! An 11-digit number!

[Anonymous Coward]

BadAnalogyGuy said:

Fighting the tide only works when you're on the shore. When you're at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, there isn't very much you can do. Good name!

Difference of culture

[pizzach]

It most likely passed through with so few complaints because of how different the culture is there from here. Something like this might seem like the ridiculously obvious thing to do for them. You can't count on very body to think the same as Americans, for better and worse.

Japan != USA/Europe

[DNS-and-BIND]

The Japanese don't have such an irrational fear of databases and information. In part because of their culture (which is not so contaminated with outside influences such as cultures that most slashdot readers might be familiar with) and also in part because they are not subject to the US constitution (gasp, shock). Here's an idea: perhaps the Japanese are able to determine which laws they want? I know, a radical idea - they didn't even consult the UN before implementing this.

Re:Japan != USA/Europe

[Scrameustache]

The Japanese don't have such an irrational fear of databases and information. The Japanese have an irrational acceptance of authority and conformism.

Re:Japan != USA/Europe

[Cutriss]

The Japanese also have an irrational sense of honor and trust in others. It probably never occurred to most of the everybodies who found out about this system that it would ever be misused.

Re:Japan != USA/Europe

[MidnightBrewer]

Cultural contamination? They had their constitution written for them by the United States military, their Diet was first borrowed from the Germans and then reformed into a British style, their school system is modeled after the German, and their current pacifistic ways were forced upon them by external powers as well. In daily life, they're inundated with western pop culture. Granted, the Japanese core is still largely the same, but their youth is moving in liberal directions and the older generation are blaming the West for it. Some of the most recent annoyances for the government include unionization and public demonstration. In Osaka, for example, the UN's International Labor Organization is backing the teacher's union, which is suing the board of education based on what they believe to be an unconstitutional review system (basically, teachers' salaries and tenure are determined by a letter grade, and the grounds for the grade they receive are kept secret, and there is no way for the teacher to dispute or appeal the results).

Despite the surface changes, the Japanese government operates in pretty much the same way it always has; a few people in power who hand the laws down to the common folk and the common folk are expected to bear it. Theoretically, these people in power are supposed to have the good of the people in mind, but the reality differs somewhat. The Japanese people have an inherent faith in their government, although that faith is eroding rapidly in recent years; hence the rapid change of prime ministers since Koizumi.

Re:Japan != USA/Europe

[badasscat]

The Japanese have an irrational acceptance of authority and conformism.

What's so irrational about it? They didn't always have such an acceptance. This is a country that has existed for thousands of years, the first couple thousand of which were spent in a state of near-constant civil war without any centralized government. It was only after a strong central government was formed - and further refined with our help - that they became a prosperous, peaceful country with one of the highest standards of living in the world.

Acceptance of authority and conformism has brought them peace, prosperity, high educational standards, low crime, good health and long life expectancy. They are no less "free" than we are, either. Their government does not wiretap their citizens' phone calls or endorse torture, and their taxes do not go to supporting a massive military industrial complex or a set of oil cartels. So in what way is their culture "irrational"? Especially in comparison to ours?

Accept the fact that not everybody thinks the way Americans do. We are not the center of the universe and the way we think is not the "right" way.

Re:Japan != USA/Europe

[roystgnr]

It was only after a strong central government was formed - and further refined with our help

Where by "further refined" you mean "tried to brutally conquer a hemisphere", and by "with our help" you mean "was effectively replaced after their surrender from years of war was finally forced via the nuclear incineration of two cities".

This is not a shining historical beacon to the values of conformism and obedience to authority.

Your American examples are effective at illustrating the point that the Japanese aren't specially susceptible to those failings and that the United States is not immune to them; but they're not very good pro-obedience lessons either. If it wasn't for the worship of authority here, we'd have impeached and imprisoned the torturers and unwarranted wiretappers years ago, and we'd at least be able to have a reasonable discussion about military and economic power without one side being constantly accused of "hating America".

To what extent is privacy cultural?

[davecrusoe]

In reading this story, I wonder about how individuals raised in cultures different than my own (read: USA) view issues of personal privacy vs. common good. Broadly speaking, we in the states tend to defend a "rights" theory; that our personal rights can, in some cases, trump the good of society. However, the idea of a populace giving in some personal rights for those of the supposed good lies on the spectrum of utilitarianism; that by putting in place a universal ID, it's necessary to give up some personal rights, in order to protect the largest number of people.

But, I'd be interested to know about how others compare this issue to the various historical theories of ethics...

Re:To what extent is privacy cultural?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

that our personal rights can, in some cases, trump the good of society. Maybe that's the way some people see it in the USA. I see it as personal rights being a requirement for the long-term good of society. That while short-term violations of rights may appear to yield short-term benefits for "the good of society," in the long-term those violations do a net harm to society.

I think its summed up well in the saying about Benito Mussolini -- "At least he made the trains run on time!"

Different cultures, different standards

[AdamHaun]

You're astonished that a completely different culture has different standards for privacy? The modern American conception of privacy is hardly universal, and it wasn't too long ago that things like your shopping habits couldn't be private because the people who sold to you all knew you personally.

Slashdot ID

[LingNoi]

I also have a number that uniquely identifies me.

Yeah, I have my own id too, it's 1066278.

Orwell was British

[starglider29a]

I have often wondered what life would be like if we didn't have the phrases "Orwellian" or "mark of the beast" in our vocabulary? Is our life (in America) better, more free because of our mindset from reading Orwell? Or is it worse because our paranoia about becoming "orwellian" hampers real progress in using technology to improve our lives? Thus also "mark of the beast?" If it were not for the stigma (pun intended) of being subjugated to a totalitarian government/economic system, how much better could commerce and governance be with a "master table" of PIDs?

Go for it: List the pros or cons of each scenario... But just remember, all those pros go away when the people controlling the database go bad. And they do.

Re:An outraged privacy advocate

[Eddi3]

You're posting on Slashdot. I think we already know your gender. :-)

Similar system in Costa Rica

[alriode]

As for us in Costa Rica (not Puerto Rico), in Central America (in the middle of the whole continent), an ID system called "cédula de identidad" has been used since some decades ago for all citizens (a Costa Rican is a citizen once he/she is 18 years old). A 9-digits number is related with full name, gender, date and place of birth. Recent "cedulas" even include a version of one's signature (recollected by a writing tablet). It is an necessary ID for every kind of (bureaucratic) transactions (voting at the national and local elections, signing in for a bank account, obtaining a driver licence, etc.). Most of us are not concerned about the privacy issue (specially because the Government itself isn't Orwellian at all).

privacy? welcome to the information age

[x00101010x]

Seriously people, it's the 21st century, the information age. Privacy does not exist. You WILL give your information to banks, governments, health care agencies, employers, etc. in order to function in this world. They in turn will eventually fsck up and disclose said information publicly. I'm in favor of regulations that provide recourse and stiff penalties for organizations that mishandle information. However, they won't always be enforcible and lobbyists will put in loop holes making them ineffective, that's just reality. In the information age, your identity is your face. You don't walk down the street wearing a mask, do you? No, you'd look pretty silly. Do you yell at the shop clerk to not look at your face? No, you'd be considered rude. Just shut up and get used to it. Your identity is already public. Your personal information is likely to end up public. The best thing you can do is keep up to date on your credit profile and not be an idiot about spreading your information any more than you must.

Re:privacy? welcome to the information age

[ScrewMaster]

Penalties for misuse of aggregated personal information don't help the individuals who were violated. They're hosed whether the perpetrators are penalized or not. That's the problem, and personally I'm against data aggregation. The benefits to organizations (whether governmental or private-sector) of massive databases are obvious: they're less so when it comes to private citizens. They gain power and more of our money, and what to we get? Stalkers, identity thieves, targeted advertising, a host of things we would rather do without.

Here's the real issue.

[Carbon Copied]

If you want to sign up to your own ID card system, fine, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

The problem is, if I don't want to sign up with your system, you get to put me in jail.
This is downright wrong and against the basic right that all human beings have to stay silent about their personal information.

Not to mention, any time in human history where ID schemes and mandatory databases have been misused they used exactly the same "what could go wrong/what have you got to hide" reasoning as they are using now.

Godwin's law be damned, how do you think the Nazi government knew where all the jews lived when they started handing out arm bands and shipping them to concentration camps?

The point isn't what today's government in today's climate will do with it. The point is that no organization should be given that much unchecked power to mandate citizens to give up their private information when it has never been proven that a government is immune to corruption and incompetence.

Governments have proven themselves untrustworthy with this level of information on the general public.

The UK government lost 28 million peoples private information LAST YEAR alone.

But the government has proven itself competent and reliable in every other aspect of its business so I guess we should trust it on this one.....

yeesh

Sources :

http://www.betanews.com/article/UK_government_loses_data_on_as_many_as_25_million_people/1195687877
http://www.news.com/U.K.-government-loses-data-on-driving-test-candidates/2100-1029_3-6223292.html
http://www.news.com/U.K.-government-loses-pensioner-data/2100-1029_3-6223493.html

Re:Here's the real issue.

[charlieman]

Yes Mr. 909743 you are right!

We should eliminate lastnames as well since they can relate people to other people. That's very risky in terms of privacy.

Re:Here's the real issue.

[geekyMD]

In the US we don't have a national ID system, and we didn't in 1938 either. But that didn't stop the Japanese internment. Nor did it stop the government from rapidly creating a monstrosity of a system which indexed all possible threats to the government living on American soil from 1939 to 1978.

That was in 1938 when everything was still pen and paper and the government couldn't just pressure any given large corporation for their database of information. Its really silly to assume that something like that couldn't easily happen today, if its not already happening. Yes, having a federal unique identifier for everyone would make illegal persecution easier, but it would not make it much easier. At most it would hasten any coming storm by a matter of a few days, and by that point the people are either going to rise up or just take it anyways.

So bring on my national ID: I'd love to have my life's history of medical records easily accessed and quickly prove that I'm an American citizen at the airport. Just make the central database contain only my index number, name, birthday and biometric verification data (fingerprint, signature, retina, etc, with allowances to grow with innovation), but absolutely nothing else, not even gender. Then let every branch of federal and state government keep its own database using my index number as the indexing key. That alone ought to keep enough confusion in the system to kneecap any clandestine manhunts to only what is going on today. Then let there also be thick legislated walls of non-interoperability between those databases and mandated non-public access with both carrying penalties of capital treason for misuse for everyone involved from bottom to top. Finally let every citizen be able to fully view and even challenge their own entries from every branch of government. Ideally I would like to see this implemented in the form of a constitutional amendment so that any given congress can't tinker with the system just because their party got majority this year, but that may be overboard.

Corportate abuses can easily be fixed with legislation, i.e.: criminally enforced non-descrimination based on health records with extremely stiff penalties (say $5 mil + annual inflation per abuse).

My point is simply this: Every single government on this planet is capable of massive abuses. It doesn't matter what tools are available to it, the abuses will happen if they are allowed to happen. Thus, for every citizen, the price of liberty truly is eternal vigilance.

39.296.090-4

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

that's the number on my registration card. it was issued when i registered and had my fingerprints taken in the public security office here in sao paulo.

and you know what ? IS NOT A BIG DEAL.

get over it, USians. the govt already know who you are. how many databases you're registered on ? DMV, social security, schools permanent records, with the military, and so on.

if the govt is not abusing all that info, then a national ID will be just a formality without adding any risk.

now, if they ARE using all the info they already have against the population, a new database won't make any difference. and you people should seriously start considering a revolution.

When I read the title...

[thefear]

My first thought was 'how could a country intelligently design all of its citizens'

Anonymity breeds abuse

[Buscape]

Americans don't understand being held accountable for their actions hence they're going to fight being identifiable until they've been properly schooled in accountability. Welcome to school children. This is going to be painful.

This is the Wrong Battle

[Gorimek]

I'm something as odd as a hardcore libertarian Swede. I moved to Silicon Valley in 1995, in small part because of that.

Like most other developed nations, Sweden has a system much like Japan's, that keeps track of who people are where they live. This results in vastly superior service to the citizens. You don't have to register to vote, you can get a passport in under an hour, and in general you only have to tell one governmental agency something once, and the others will also get the information on a need-to-know basis.

And here is my point:

The US government already knows everything about you. They even read your email and tap your phone at will. But since they have to pretend not to, we have to keep sending in the same information again and again, things take forever and are often done wrong. We have the worst of both worlds, with little privacy and little functioning services.

Americans fight this kind of system thinking they're protecting privacy. They're not. Their privacy is long gone, and they're just wasting their effort. If you have the energy to fight for freedom, use it where it counts. This, unfortunately, is not such a place.

The difference is trust.

[k1mgy]

The difference is that the Japanese government actually cares about and cares for its citizens - all of them. The proof is everywhere: national health insurance; immediate and effective disaster response; a public transportation system second-to-none; national renewable initiatives. Sure, there are fowl ups and there are crooks, but compared to the criminal maladministration in the US, I'd take Japanese government any day, and I'd gladly sign up and participate in a national ID. The difference is trust.

Re:The difference is trust.

[himurabattousai]

I've seen a lot of dismissal of cultural differences here, and each and every one of them misses the point. Everything from the way they use their kitchen utensils to the efficiency of their mass transit to the way their government works flows from the culture of the people. Despite sixty years of Western influence (and yes, I do know about Commodore Perry in the mid 1800's), Japan's culture is still based on the same principles that it was two hundred years ago--among them being honor, respect, selflessness/sacrifice, and knowing one's place in society.

What we call democracy today fits in quite well with the partially collectivist Japanese society. For their government to run smoothly, all those principles of their culture cannot be left at the doors to their Diet building. And yes, while there will be screw-ups in every government, they are more likely to be admitted to and rectified when the people who run the country hold themselves to a higher standard because of how they were raised, whether that is instilled by parental or cultural pressures. It follows, reasonably, that their national ID system is just an extension of their cultural belief in "knowing one's place." For good or bad, that's from my perspective as a U.S. citizen, but it seems that unlike some people here, though, I'm willing to try look at things through the eyes of another--even if I can never fully appreciate the view.

Proper disclaimers apply, of course. IANAJP, (if anyone can read that), and the like, but I enjoy studying both the language and the culture (parts of which I deeply admire) because both are so wildly different from what I've spent my whole life dealing with.

Ach

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people have such a problem with the government having the same information we give away to credit card companies and banks all the time?

Japan much less Orwellian than the US or UK

[kamenr]

The government tip-toes around in slippers regarding issues like this, instead of putting on the jackboots the way the Americans or British do.

Jukinet has been up and running for years, but the central government has been unable to force take-up, just as they cannot enforce take-up of the so-called compulsory social security or health care systems, or just as NHK cannot force people to pay the compulsory subscription. If Japan were the USA they would just put a gun to people's heads, so-to-speak, and enforce participation.

The way it has worked up to now is that individuals elect to sign up for the Jukinet smart card, and less than two percent of the population has done this. There's no actual requirement anywhere to get one, and it seems to be regarded as a slight potential convenience.

My theory is that there are are at least a couple reasons why the Japaneese government seems so ineffective in putting teeth into enforcement of compliance with such systems.

1) There is a lingering sense of respect for "rights of the individual" that remains since the various reforms after the War, and it's tied in with left wing politics. This is why it's taken 30 years to build the second runway at Narita airport.

2) Second reason is bureacratic turf wars. Jukinet is the pet project of one not-particularly-powerful ministry, and they do not have the power to enforce take-up, although they certainly did manage to get to the Supreme Court in this case (which has handed down a judgment that is rather short-sighted about privacy, given the history of privacy problems that we have seen in Japan in recent years).

In short, Japan has all the privacy problems of other developed countries (and perhaps even more so, given the ubiquitous video surveillance), but has soft spots in its central adminstration in unexpected places.

Incidentally, if it were my job to increase Jukinet card takeup, I would offer people the option of getting them in a design theme of Hello Kitty, or Snoopy, or Audrey Hepburn or something such, and then add electronic money and/or train pass functionality, slightly discounted. WHOOOOOSH, massive take-up overnight.

Japan != Anything you want to emulate

[Shihar]

Their obsession with conformity has also graced them with the highest suicide rate in the world.

People miss the point of citing statistics like wealth and crime. Wealth and crime in it of themselves are worthless. Crime in particular is a silly stat to obsess over. If you want to eliminate crime, just knock everyone into a coma and keep them alive with feeding tubes. The reason why we want wealth and low crime is to bring about happiness. When your pursuit of these things fail to produce more happiness, you are failing. The real purpose of a government should be to bring about the greatest happiness for their citizens and sustain their happiness. All the wealth and low crime in the world won't make a damned bit of difference if you are so miserable you throw yourself off a bridge.

If the point of life is happiness, the Japanese fail spectacularly. The Japanese are roughly the last people in this world we should be seeking to emulate. Don't get me wrong, a lot of great things come out of Japan that I have met have been great people, but the emulation of their miserable and unhappy society ranks roughly last on my list of things to do.

Re:Japan != Anything you want to emulate

[wrook]

Posts like this piss me off. First lets get some statistics right:

http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

Japan does not have the highest suicide rate in the world. It doesn't even come close. According to this study, in 1999 the suicide rate was 50.6 per 100,000 people. This compares to 21.7 for the US and 15.1 in the UK. So it seems very high. However, compared to Austria (37.1), Beglium (40.1), Finland (45.5), etc it's not exactly running away wild. Countries with internal political strife have considerably higher levels (nearing 100 for some countries). So it's bad, but not ridiculously bad.

Now, let's take some other things into consideration. This data was taken in 1999 - 1 year after the collapse of several Japanese banks and the end of the "Job for life" policy in Japan. Yes, before 1998, nobody ever got laid off. Ever. In the history of the country. So in 1998 and 1999, people were getting laid off frequently. Hence suicide rates climbed dramatically.

Second you have to consider the culture. Unlike the US and the UK, suicide is *accepted* in Japanese society. Just the other day the father of one of my colleagues killed himself. His wife had died earlier and he just couldn't cope with looking after himself. Japanese men, in general, are totally dependent upon their wives. Many of them die by their own hand right after their wives die. This is sad, but normal here. In fact, I heard about my colleague's father at the morning staff meeting. No social stigma to the event at all.

So no matter what, suicide rates are going to be higher here than in the US or the UK. It's just seen as reasonable here that if you don't want to live, you don't have to (and personally I have a hard time coming up with a good argument against that).

Now to tackle the other things you have said. Life in Japan is *not* hard. It is *not* strict. It is *not* sad. This has got to be one of the happiest places I've ever lived in my life (and I've lived int the US, Canada and the UK). Yes, people work hard. The saying here is that "Otoko wa shigoto", or "Man is work". But they *like* to work. I do too. Hell, most of the people here on /. don't have 9-5 jobs. They care about their work life and believe in what they are doing. In fact, they often find it strange that western people don't like their job. I'm not saying that all people in Japan like their job. But my experience is that their devotion to it leads to a higher level of enjoyment than what I've seen in other places I've worked.

Also, Japanese life is *full* of play. Seriously, every single weekend there's a festival of something or other near by. And people grab their families and have a blast. In fact one of the most interesting things I found about living in Japan is that people take their children *everywhere*. And Japanese children by and large *extremely* happy. Again the culture is just different. School can be tough. But it doesn't have to be. You choose to work as hard as you want. You get rewarded for your efforts. Japanese schools are agressively streamed. So the functions of the schools (especially high school) is different depending on the composition of the students.

For instance, in the high school where I work, the level is fairly low (bottom 20% in the prefecture I think). So the focus in school is on how to make a positive contribution to society. Seriously. Some of the kids take their tests and whatever seriously, but most don't. You *can* get to University from here, but only about 25% do. The rest will become fishermen, policemen, firemen, housewives/husbands, shop keepers, etc. These students are taught that their role is valuable. That they can make Japan better simply by making someone's day a little nicer.

Japan is far from unhappy. I don't agree with everything that happens here. But I have to vehomently disagree with

Ordering pizza in 2020

[SamP2]

Operator : "Thank you for calling Pizza Hut . May I have your order?"
Customer: "Hello, can I order.."
Operator : "Can I have your multi purpose card number first, Sir?"
Customer: "It's eh..., hold on....6102049998-45-54610"
Operator : "OK... you're... Mr. Sheehan and you're calling from 17 Meadow Drive. Your home number is 494 2366, your office 745 2302 and your mobile is 014 266 2566. Would you like to have the delivery made to 17 Meadow Drive?
Customer: "Yes, how did you get all my phone numbers?"
Operator : "We are connected to the system Sir"
Customer: "May I order your Seafood Pizza..."
Operator : "That's not a good idea Sir"
Customer: "How come?"
Operator : "According to your medical records, you have high blood pressure and even higher cholesterol level Sir"
Customer: "What?... What do you recommend then?"
Operator : "Try our Low Fat Soybean Yogurt Pizza.You'll like it"
Customer: "How do you know for sure?" Operator : "You borrowed a book entitled "Popular Soybean Yogurt Dishes" from the National Library last week Sir"
Customer: "OK I give up... Give me three family sized ones then, how much will that cost?
Operator : "That should be enough for your family of 10, Sir. The total is $ 49.99
Customer: "Can I pay by credit card?"
Operator : "I'm afraid you have to pay us cash, Sir. Your credit card is over the limit and you're owing your bank $3720.55 since October last year"
Operator : "That's not including the late payment charges on your housing loan Sir.
Customer: "I guess I have to run to the neighborhood ATM and withdraw Some cash before your guy arrives"
Operator : "You can't do that Sir. Based on the records, you've reached your daily limit on machine withdrawal today"
Customer: "Never mind just send the pizzas, I'll have the cash ready. How long is it gonna take anyway?"
Operator : "About 45 minutes Sir, but if you can't wait you can always come and collect it on your motorcycle..."
Customer: " What the..?"
Operator : "According to the details in system, you own a Harley,...registration number E1123..."
Customer: "@#%/$@&?#"
Operator : "Better watch your language Sir. Remember on 15th July 1987 You were convicted of using abusive language to a policeman...
Customer:( Speechless)
Operator : "Is there anything else Sir?"
Customer: "Nothing... by the way... aren't you giving me that 3 free bottles of Pepsi as advertised?"
Operator : "We normally would Sir, but based on your records you're also diabetic....... "

wrong idea

[nguy]

You have the wrong idea of how this works.

It's my understanding that they want to tie bank accounts, driver's license, social insurance / security (I'm Canadian), passport etc. to one single card.

Right now, everything is "tied" to your name. The problem is that for many people the name isn't unique. That's why a unique number is a good idea.

If you lose this card you are completely fsck'd. And if someone wants to steal your identity all they have to do is either steal or forge your card.

Huh? An id card merely says "John Smith (23984211038) was born on 4/1/1981, is a US citizen, looks like this, has this signature, and resides here." The cards are hard to forge. Such cards aren't used to replace ATM cards or anything else. They are used when you go to the bank in person and interact with a teller, in which case they are no worse than a driver's license. In the future, these cards are going to have more biometric identifiers (in addition to face and signature), meaning that they are even harder to forge and for people to pretend that they are you.

Id cards are reasonable protection against identity theft. They are used when you need to identify yourself uniquely to another person, and for that purpose, they are a whole lot better than the alternatives (driver's licenses, birth certificates, utility bills, etc.). And if security is really important, people can require those alternative in addition.

Now, there are some civil liberties arguments that one should not be able to identify people uniquely with ease. But those arguments are the opposite of yours: you want sound identification, you simply misunderstand how id cards provide it.

Inevitable

[Wordplay]

Anonymity is just security via obscurity applied to people. Any IT person worth a damn knows security via obscurity is a terrible methodology; once broken, it can never be put back together, and worse, there's no way to know when it's been broken. Eventually, someone will come up with a way to correlate even the most obfuscated and separated data, and they may or may not tell you that they can do it.

Instead, rely on proven methods like encryption, legal assurances, and simple discretion about what you put in the public eye, with an expectation that public starts where your walls end. We're approaching a small-town expectation of privacy, applied globally. You can't hide from your neighbor.

Re:theft risk

[arivanov]

It is not the government running the digital key part of the register. There are 3-4 registrars who are authorised to issue it and their procedures are actually publically available and they are subject to regular 3rd party audit as part of their license. This includes the procedures for accessing and using the CA keys. The spec is also totally open. No government quango snake oil like the idiotic UK or US ID projects.

Further to this, most banks have mandated the use of the digital key for electronic banking now and have additional agreements with the registrars. Similarly, besides individual keys, there are also business ones so you can sign contracts with and between companies with them as well.

So the registrars have a very serious vested interest to keep the register in good shape and the CA keys secure. Definitely no government officials sleeping here. This is light years ahead of the target UK and US are putting themselves with their ID projects already. When you look at the UK ID and compare it to scandinavian and the BG one it is not even funny. It is actually sad - how much money will be wasted on a joke.

Re:theft risk

[arivanov]

There are two databases.

One is the government one. It is the same as the taxation and national insurance database, not a separate "yet-another" database like the UK ID project. This is the basis for normal IDs, not the digital ID system.

The digital ID system is privately run by registrars which have won a tender process. Having correct PKI procedures including the human bit was AFAIK part of the tender. It relies on the same unique ID as the government one.

For more details you should really dig around the websites of Infonotary and other digital ID issuers. Based on first hand experience with the UK mess and the BG system I wish the UK had something even remotely approaching the stuff which BG has created.

There are of course reasons for all this. BG was forced to have a working ID system to be able to have visa waivers with Shengen states. UK chose to boycott Shengen instead. And so on. This actually goes way back to the days of the first mainframe clones done in BG.

The best description of UK as far as identity management is concerned is a hippopotamus. Huge mouth, wide open, claiming how good and advanced they are while the bottom is stuck in the thick river mud. When I first came to the UK my first ID was easier to fake than a school ID in Bulgaria. You could copy the stamps with boiled egg and it was not even printed on embossed paper. It was a simple book printed on normal paper which any Eastern European could have copied and faked in 5 minutes. While things have improved since then, not by far. There is a fantastic BBC documentary called "Me and my fake passports" where a russian journo hired by the beeb goes and obtains nearly 20 fake IDs and passports and enters the UK without problem on each of them every time.

US is not much better either and the reason for this is the "not invented here attitude" which assumes for some reason that all IT is done in anglosaxon countries. As far as identity management and use of databases in government the anglosaxon countries are 20 years behind continental Europe. Same as far as privacy and safeguards on data.