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Apple Sued Over Fundamental iTunes Model
tuxgeek writes "A suit was filed Wednesday against Apple over the possibility that the iTunes music store and iPod are 'illegally using a patented method for distributing digital media over the Internet.' ZapMedia Services filed the suit, accusing the well-known OS and computer manufacturer of violating patents obtained just recently. 'The patents in question cover a way of sending music and other digital content from servers to multiple media players, a broad description that could also apply to a wide swath of other companies selling digital media and the devices to play it. ZapMedia said it met with Apple to discuss licensing, but Apple rebuffed the offer.'"
... that there's a special place in hell for patent trolls.
I wonder how many more ridiculous lawsuits like this need to be brought before the government finally wakes up and realizes software patents are a bad idea.
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
iTunes has been out for yonks now and people have been raving for years about it and not one person at this patent troll office thought "hmmm, we have a patent on that". FTA: ZapMedia applied for the patents in 1999. One was granted in March 2006, the other on Tuesday. Not that it makes them any less of a patent troll, but it would appear that waited until at least a couple of their patents were actually granted before filing a lawsuit...
Shouldn't you be doing something useful?
Distributing media files over the Internet to devices in your home. Wow, I never would've thought of it!
One of the two patents wasn't granted until Tuesday (although the application was made in 1999). Presumably they didn't think "hmmm, we have a patent on that" because they didn't. The other patent is a bit older, but not that much. Still, reading the RA makes it so much harder to think up sarcastic comments, which is probably why it's so unpopular here.
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From the article: "When someone takes our vision and our intellectual property without a license after several attempts, we have no option but to protect it through every means available to us," Robert Frohwein, ZapMedia's general counsel, said in a statement.
Apple took their vision? iTunes has been out since January 2001 -- and based on 1999 software released by a third-party that Apple acquired -- and NOW somebody says it was theirs? Please. The only reason ZapMedia lacks vision is because they've got their heads up their sunless parts.
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
Have a look at:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/12/apple_sued_over_foundation_to_ipod_itunes_franchise.html
ZapMedia claims in its suit that after filing for the patent, they went around to various tech companies - Apple included - and pitched the idea in great detail. This was before the launch of the iPod or iTunes.
I still think this shouldn't be a patentable thing, but the suit is less wildly without merit than the article linked in this story would suggest.
Good for Apple for rebuffing. They know that this patent applies to other companies, and it's obvious ZapMedia knows nothing about the patents they hold. At least some trolls know enough to sue all the "correct" companies. Of course a technoweenie judge is going to rule in favor of ZapMedia, though, because he doesn't even know what an MP3 is, much less a digital distribution model.
Your ad here.
"ZapMedia applied for the patents in 1999. One was granted in March 2006, the other on Tuesday."
... Tuesday?!!
They filed for these patents 9 years ago, and one of them was just granted
I know we are all against software patents... but these guys have been waiting for 9 years to be able to use this patent by the rules that everyone is supposed to play by. calling them Patent Trolls for standing by and watching while Apple used thier technology to make billions, is not quite accurate.
What would have happened if this patent was issued 9 years ago? or even just the year before the iPod came out? Would it be the ZapMediaPod that everyone was playing thier music on?
Patent laws were originally designed so that the little guys can get thier inventions out without being clobbered by the big guys. Granted they don't work that way in practice.
However - if you read the article's related to this issue, (and I don't mean the trashy yahoo article) try this one:
http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_ge.jsp?cat=PRRELEASE&src=102&feed=cmt§ion=news&news_id=cmt-072b4826&date=20080312&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw
You will see that these guys worked closely with Apple, and then Apple cut them out of the loop, EXACTLY what patent law was originally designed to prevent.
Patents shouldn't apply to software... maybe. How do you protect the small time coder from the big business that takes thier ideas, makes billions, and then doesn't return a dime, without patents?
I'll accept any answer that doesn't end with
3: ????
4: PROFIT!
Really, is it Zapmedia's fault that it took 7 years for the USTPO to review and award the patent. Have you heard of Patent Pending, it used to be printed on a bunch of toys I had has a kid. With patents your protection begins from the date of application but you cannot go after anyone until it is granted. Since the patent was granted on tuesday I have a hard time seeing this as a submarine patent, and it's not like these guys have a huge patent portfolio, they have two, both similar but one with more asset management features (aka DRM).
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Zappa came up with the idea of centralized digital distribution of music back in 1983. He wins: http://blog.boondoggle.eu/2007/02/frank_zappa_pro.html
It's called venue or forum shopping, looking for a place to file suit where you're more likely to get a favorable result:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum-shopping
East Texas is apparently well known as a venue for patent suits, as the judges there tend to find in favor of the plaintiff more than the national average.
Yay America!
Hmmm. Without reading the patent
What about 'media players' and 'music' differentiates this from, oh, 'files' and 'NFS' for instance? "A method of allowing multiple clients to remotely access a networked resource".
Man, patents can seem so stupid.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
So then let's assume that Zapmedia are the "good guys" in this dispute. That brings to me this question:
What good is an idea if you can't execute on it? I'm pretty sure that Apple didn't steal the idea from Zapmedia, so really....what is the consideration that Apple is supposed to pay Zapmedia for?
They (Zapmedia) had a headstart but didn't have the business/marketing wherewithal to do anything with it and now they want the US govt to do what their ineffective business could not - make big money.
I hate patents.
Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
FWIW: You can not enforce a patent until it is actually approved. So other people can go ahead and develop similar things, sell, and market them - and there is nothing you can do besides issuing them a stern letter from a lawyer. Now, once you get the patent it is a different story. You can sue and either get money ("forced" licensing) or get the other guys to stop. Of course the defendants will claim that the patent covers something obvious and try to get the patent overturned. Of course what is obvious now, may not have been so in 1999 or whenever Apple started selling iPods/using iTunes - so it will be fun to see what happens.
...have any products? Do they compete in consumer space? Was there an existing product that Apple stole ideas from and subsequently rendered ZapMedia's product unsaleable? Maybe people need to watch "Connections" more often, but this idea that "ideas" are like rare diamonds and only one of a kind seems to permeate patent trollery. There are thousands if not millions of intelligent people forging ahead with technology and ideas and innovation. Apple's iTunes has many imitators and many predecessors, and none of them needed Apple to steal from, nor did Apple need to steal ideas. If you have the right people on a problem the solutions are obvious, and will be replicated across several companies several times. Now, when ZapMedia can show that there is code in iTunes that was written by ZapMedia, they will have something. Otherwise, the idea that an idea or concept can be patented without ever creating a product design to sell or implement boggles me.
Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos
Ok then look at it this way, in 2001 when iTunes was launched, tied to an extremely popular mp3 player. Now not having actually been granted a patent they could do nothing. To then sit and write a competeing product (and maybe they had worked on a prototype, I don't know) would be fruitless, as even back then we (ie. the slashdot crowd) saw that iTunes/iPod were going to dominate the market. I just don't think these guys are the usual patent troll scum we have come to know and hate.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
When is some idiot going to realize that downloading anything as a "package" is the same action. A jpg, an mp3, or an html document, it's all JUST BITS encapsulated in a file. Streaming is downloading bits in real time without the package. Encoding is converting something into bits that can be downloaded. Can we get past the idiocy of granting a different patent for downloading a jpg than downloading an mp3? Really, networks have been doing this for nigh on 4 decades. Sure the encoding changes, the size of the object downloaded changes, and how much you can charge for said object does, but nothing "technological" has changed.
Now, coming up with an insanely cool new encoding technology? Designing a new network transport system that passes information in a new and highly efficient way? Those should be patentable. But pushing a file in that encoding over the new network, please, somebody get a clue. If not, I'm planning on patenting a system to transport iPods across country using Hybrid vehicles....
Here is the link to the actual patent. It seems to be filed in 2000. I don't have time to analyze it, but can someone analyze it and comment on its merits.
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Slashdot saw that the iPod was going to dominate?
:)
Wasn't the original Slashdot posting about the iPod (now legendarily) just, "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame." with a number of followup comments about "Probably just OEM'd." and "Mediocre at best" type summaries?
In fairness, a few did say that the device shouldn't be dismissed, but I call shenanigans that people saw it was going to dominate.
--Rachel
With some luck, this will stop apple from using iTunes but not from selling the iPod.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
The patent is not about the iPod or iTunes. It is about distributing "media" via a "network", tracking permissions who can or cannot use that "media", and being able to use the "media" on various players. The iPod came out in 2000, and the iTunes software came out in 1998, but this isn't talking about the integration between the iPod and iTunes because there is no centralized distribution database.
In 2003, Apple came out with the iTunes store, and this is where the patent infringement is claimed. There's a centralized database of media (music files, video, etc.), and that is distributed to local media players. There is something that verifies that the player has permission to play that media.
Notice there is nothing in the patent that says downloading! If I had a streaming service, and you connected to the streaming service via WiFi or some other mechanism, if you selected some media to play, and the server verifies you have permission to play that, and then it streams the media to your local player, that would be covered under the patent.
To me, the patent is overly broad. There is no method specified, only the results (local player plays media from a central server it has permission to play). In fact, because it is so overly broad, it is easily possible to find local prior art. For example, cable TV might qualify (central database of TV shows, and these are played via a local player (called a TV set), but only by the people who have permission).
Decendents of Uugg the caveman filed a lawsuit against anyone profiting from music. They say his patents on striking two rocks together and pounding on a hollow log form the basis of all music. Representatives for the music industry made an out of court offer of two goats and a stone ax to settle the matter but the offer was rejected.
It will be hard to find. The patent was filed on Oct 5th 1999. I can't find exactly when Napster started, but it was first sued in Dec 1999 - so shortly before that. The problem is that Napster is not prior art for this patent. The service described is basically iTunes. It uses a central server with a library of music, and client devices use licenses to download the tracks that they can prove they are entitled to.
I suspect that this patent will be very hard to fight in the US courts because the defense relies on how obvious the invention is. There may be prior art for music distribution, and for downloading licensed content from a central server, but the issue is whether or not there is prior art for the combination. I can't think of any iTunes-like servers back before Napster. Although there were plenty of illegal ftp/web sites they didn't use licenses for obvious reasons.
Looks like these guys saw Napster, guessed which way the wind was going to blow and rushed to file a patent before the music industry organised themselves. I bet that they never implemented / released a product before iTunes. So Apple may have some scope in that it is an obvious combination of well-known pieces, and that ZapMedia didn't even have to invent the product (at least build a prototype) to file the patent.
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Where in the hell is the prior art? How can there be any, if the patent was just issued? Why was the patent approved?
Absurdity: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce
Audible.com was using the this model in November 1997. They had a web site you browsed, purchased content, and then downloaded it to a player that played the licensed content in a controlled format. No Sharing! So this patent was filed 1-2 years after that?? What's unique about the patent and the idea?
That patent is no more ridiculous than some of Apple's own patents. Maybe if Apple gets sued like this, they will also work for patent reform.
Old paradigm: Microsoft waits for Apple to make a feature then copies it. New paradigm: Apple makes a new feature then waits for Company X to file a copyright claim.
I'd be interested to know a rough figure on how much money has changed hands in the IT industry as a result of software patent lawsuits in the past 3 decades, and whether that money stayed IN the IT industry (ie. winning company went on to make XYZ). Without any idea I am sure it would be in the TRILLIONS of dollars. Surely this is as good an indication as any of how damaging software patents are to the industry.