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Matter, Anti-Matter, and a New Subatomic Particle?

sciencehabit writes "Physicists may have finally figured out why the universe contains more matter than antimatter. The key lies in a flaw in the relationship between the two and a potentially new subatomic particle. 'Other researchers, however, say the results, published today in Nature, should be interpreted cautiously. It could all be an effect produced by run-of-the-mill particles'."

14 of 175 comments (clear)

  1. Star Trekkin' Across the Universe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Anyone remember the particle-of-the-week on Star Trek? Yeah. Modern physics feels like that sometimes.

    1. Re:Star Trekkin' Across the Universe by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also, to respond to the higgs thing...

      If we do just find the Higgs particle from the LHC, and nothing more, then that is pretty much the worst case situation. We know that there are problems with the standard model, but nobody knows for sure what part is wrong, and how it is wrong exactly. Everyone is hoping that the LHC will give results that aren't predicted by the standard model, to give us a better understanding in where and why it is wrong exactly.

  2. Dark Matter? by TFer_Atvar · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Where does dark matter fit into that cosmological view?

    1. Re:Dark Matter? by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      IIRC dark matter is required to make the observed rotation of galaxies fit our current model. OTOH: When I was a kid in the 60's black holes were mathematical curiosities.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    2. Re:Dark Matter? by Zymergy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree there is "something" out there that does have mass and therefore also has gravitational fields.
      Since we can't currently *see it* I'll also agree that because it is currently not directly observable it is therefore "Dark" and made of "Matter".

      My point is; that it to call it "Dark Matter" and to be done with it leaves things rather vague. Science rarely is so succinct and simple.

      Black Hole material is also "Dark Matter" as it too cannot be directly observed.
      Enough effects and gravity of the Black Holes' "Dark Matter" exists on the non-dark observable matter nearby to their hypothesized locations to convince scientists that Black Holes do exist (in addition to the math working out decently).
      Stephen Hawking is THE MAN.

      For all we know, the mysterious "Dark Matter" could really be just a very dense repository of all of the discarded fruitcakes from around the universe. We don't know.
      Scientists have an idea about what "Dark Matter" might be, and likely SOME of that will be correct, but chances are that a majority of it will be wrong. It will actually turn out to be something more complicated than 'matter we just can't observe' so it is now therefore decreed to be henceforth called "Dark Matter".
      I believe that atoms once were the smallest particles known, that changed. So will this. It may turn out to just be star ash, but Maybe not.
      It could be thousands of things or types of matter, likely even stuff that is NOT dark.

      If we can make a B2 bomber into "Dark Matter" from the POV of a man by using it's stealth features and electromagnetic radiation adsorbing coverings, maybe there's just plain ordinary matter out there that is rather cold and covered with some cosmic stealth paint.

      The math says it exists and there is enough circumstantial evidence that "something" is there. I doubt it has some mystical properties that make it invisible. There are other dimensions in the universe that mathematics has proven exist, maybe being close or intersecting in some way with matter in those other dimensions is actually causing the "Dark Matter" effect.
      I hope to live long enough to see "Dark Matter" become as archaic a term as the body's 4 humors are now from my original analogy.

    3. Re:Dark Matter? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually Newton gets a free pass, one of the two(?) assumptions he wrote down was "time is constant".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    4. Re:Dark Matter? by regularstranger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >> since black holes are made from collapsed stars, they are baryonic.

      Although I think the original point that dark matter cannot be attributed to black holes is valid, can baryonic conservation within a black hole really be assumed? If I put 10^40 baryons in a black hole, should I expect to get 10^40 back out via Hawking radiation? What does this say about the information content of a black hole? (I don't know much about these topics, so I'd really like to know.)

  3. Re:A flaw? A FLAW? by glitch23 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A flaw in God's perfect creation?!?!

    A flaw in our understanding of it. Quit making flames for the sake of making flames because there is no basis in the article for what you said. You'll look less stupid in the process.

    --
    this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
  4. Exceptionally Simply Theory of Everything by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So did Garrett Lisi predict the new particles? Do they fit into the E8 algebra thing that his theory is based on?

    1. Re:Exceptionally Simply Theory of Everything by mcelrath · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Garrett's theory does contain some new particles, which might be used to explain the effects described in TFA. What is required is new CP violation. I believe Garrett's theory contains higgs particles which could have CP violating interactions, but this is far from clear after re-reading his paper. As far as I know no one has done a detailed study using Garrett's theory. So far Garrett's paper has not been cited by any real particle physics (phenomenology) studies, so one cannot say for sure yet.

      After seeing a talk this week at CERN on this subject, I'm fairly skeptical, and I think this effect will go away with more data (particularly from D0).

      -- Bob

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
    2. Re:Exceptionally Simply Theory of Everything by mcelrath · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The physics community is pretty divided on whether blogs and such are a useful communications medium. Problem is, that physics requires sitting down and thinking hard about something for quite a long time (accompanied by some calculation) to reach a conclusion. Blogs usually contain no more than an hour's thought by each poster on a given subject. And, 1000 posters does not 1000 hours of concentrated thought make.

      I'm relatively neutral on the subject, blogs on these kinds of topics I think are at best useless, and at worst a noisy distraction. I'm not convinced they're actually harmful, but neither do I find reading shouting matches particularly interesting or useful. If I were to start a blog, it would be mostly to communicate to the outside world, not to communicate with other physicists.

      Anyway, the links I provided are for the kinds of publications where people did sit down and think hard for weeks/months/years before publishing. These are more representative of where the science is headed, I think. It's all publicly available though. Draw your own conclusions. Note that very few physicists actually have blogs, and most of those are string theorists.

      -- Bob

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
  5. Not a flaw...a design feature by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Without this "flaw" matter and anti-matter would have cancelled out almost perfectly early on in the Big Bang leaving nowhere near enough matter (or anti-matter) to form galaxies or stars. So this "flaw" is what allows us to exist. I would not call it a flaw, but rather a design feature. Without breaking this symmetry the Universe would be a really boring place, in much the same way that a tree is more interesting than a cube even though the cube has far more symmetry.

  6. ...more like a non-result by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    All this paper shows is that there is a difference between CP violation in the charged B mesons and the neutral B mesons. This is somewhat unexpected and while you cannot rule out something new it is also true that they cannot rule out QCD (strong force) effects.

    The problem the strong force is that it is so strong at low energy that our normal technique to calculate what is going on (called perturbation theory) does not work because, rather than small perturbations, the strong interaction causes huge changes. This means that theorists have to make approximations in order to calculate anything and so their results may well just show a flaw in their assumptions rather than a flaw in our understanding of physics.

    An excellent example of this was with my grad student experiment which was also measuring CP violation but with kaons. Before our measurement the theorists were saying that there was absolutely no way at all they could have a certain parameter (epsilon'/epsilon) to have a value greater than 1e-3 and it would likely be a lot lower. So, we measured it at around 1.7e-3 and, lo and behold, the theorists adjusted their models and suddenly it was in agreement with theory.

    So while this might be an indication of something new I am not yet convinces that it is anything more than an incorrect assumption in a QCD calculation somewhere. Such calculations are fantastically difficult and while in this case there are things that will make it easier, it is not yet convincing evidence.

  7. Baryogenesis by jbatista · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This "old" question was first successfully addressed, in a scientific way, by Andrei Sakharov circa 1967, and was called Baryogenesis (meaning "generation of baryons"). Sakharov's paper had little exposure until several years later, partly because at the time it was published in then-USSR and scientific collaboration was not as permeable as it is nowadays and also because it involved then-new knowledge (Cosmic Background Radiation, and CP-violation), and (I think) few people had the expertise, time or other constringencies favoring the immediate approach of this then-new subject.

    Baryons are hadrons (particles composed by quarks), specifically three quarks, and the proton and neutron are the lightest and most stable of baryons.

    The Baryogenesis theory, as proposed by Sakharov, describes a set of three conditions which all had to be met together in order to have a matter-asymetric universe. A baryogenic reaction sets off from a baryon-symmetric state to produce a final state which has a greater content of particles than anti-particles; or, in effect, no anti-particles and a "small" ammount of matter particles (in comparison to the number of annihilation photon "sea" which might be interpreted as the Cosmic Background Radiation). According to Sakharov, a potencially baryogenic reaction has to satisfy all of three conditions:
    1. It must violate the baryonic number, i.e., the number of baryons in the final state must differ from the initial state. This might seem a trivial requirement, but under the current (very successful) Standard Model of Particle Physics, it is not.
    2. It must violate CP (charge-parity) symmetry. In other words, the physics of the reaction/decay must be different from its charge-conjugated (and parity-conjugated) counterpart. Specifically, the rate of a baryogenic reaction must differ from the reaction involving the corresponding anti-particles, due to a non-trivial theoretical result known as "CPT theorem".
    3. It must happen away from equilibrium (thermal and "chemical"). In other words, the reaction rate must be faster than the time it takes for the mixture between initial and final state domain contents to mix and reach equilibrium.
    The first two conditions are mostly related to particle physics, and the third is more oriented to cosmology and especially the macroscopic treatment of the universe with (relativistic) thermodynamics. IMHO, the trickiest is to find a decay that satisfies the first condition, since in the Standard Model of Particle Physics this should not happen directly (technically, the baryon number operator does not show up explicitly in the Standard Model Hamiltonian).

    From what I've gathered, this is the job of looking for a "new" particle whose decay can, not only, satisfy the three Sakharov conditions, but also give the correct predictions. The matter-to-radiation content is fairly precise: it's very small, but not null, about 1 matter particle (think "hydrogen atom") per 10 billion (1010) cosmic background radiation photons. It's one thing to find a particle whose decay satisfies the Sakharov conditions, especially one that violates the baryon number conservation "directly" (i.e., as a "first order" process); it's another thing entirely to justify that that same decay is enough to give that particle-to-photon ratio within an order of magnitude.
    --
    My sig is better than your sig.