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Scientology's Credibility Questioned Over Video Channel

stonyandcher writes to share that the Church of Scientology has come under fire for some items on their recently launched video channel. Most notably, claims have been leveled that dignitaries in one of their videos were faked and at least one of the people featured in the video is claiming their statements were taken out of context.

40 of 450 comments (clear)

  1. Credibility??? by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 5, Funny

    Scientology's Credibility...
    (Splutter!) That got me.... Also questioned this week-

    Bears' woodland sanitary habits
    Pope's Nazi youth
    Apple enthusiasts' devotion....
    --
    "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
    1. Re:Credibility??? by Gat0r30y · · Score: 4, Funny

      Scientology's senior leadership replied saying: "Bears use outhouses just like all the other woodland creatures"
      "The Pope was on vacation to Bermuda during the youth in question"
      "And whats with those Apple enthusiasts, damn, like seriously, there more devoted than Xenu!"

      --
      Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
    2. Re:Credibility??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sure they have plenty of credit with the financial institutions that they work with.

    3. Re:Credibility??? by Loether · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In other news... Professional wrestling found to be Fake!

      --
      TODO create witty sig.
    4. Re:Credibility??? by Gat0r30y · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How can a religion have credibility Good point!
      --
      Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
    5. Re:Credibility??? by EdIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Perhaps the flamebait is a little too hasty for the parent. Perhaps.

      I think the word credible may be misunderstood and certaintly not used correctly by the original poster. This is why it offends people.

      "Credible" refers to the capacity, or worthiness, for a person to believe in something. To say that a religion, any religion, lacks credibility is to say that no one could believe in it. For those that do believe in a particular religion, this would be hurtful and deemed offensive by its members. Hence, the flamebait, or even a troll moderation.

      I think what the quote should of said was that religion has no basis in logic, or material evidence. The original poster, and the parent may have been trying to state that a religion, any religion, exists devoid of any factual evidence, logical proof, quantifiable and repeatable results. IMHO, the very word religion describes the situation the poster may have been trying to relate to us.

      Belief, per its definition, can be used to describe an acceptance of the truth, or conviction in the truth, with or without a foundation of "cold hard facts". Belief is neutral, or has no position either way.

      Now "Faith" on the other hand is not neutral, it is not ambiguous. Faith is usually accepted to be the belief in something in the absence of material evidence or logical proof.

      I am a "scientist". The scientific method, logic, reason, etc. are all very important to me. I have a strong belief that our world should be run on factual evidence and that reason and logic should guide our decisions.

      However, to believe in something that (as of yet) has no evidence, or proof, is equally important. It provides us with inspiration and strength. My Faith is very important to me as well, and I think it is an important part of us all. To mock someone else's ability to have faith, or the fact that they have it, is to mock your own. IMO, that is what is offensive by the original poster, and the parent.

      I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though that may not have been what they meant, as I initially read it a little bit differently before remembering the true definition and usage of the word "credible".

    6. Re:Credibility??? by EdIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A handful of frightened men just suddenly started a movement that was large enough to attract the attention of Nero within a generation?


      How the heck should I know if they were frightened. You want to state their beliefs as fact simply because Nero gave it attention?

      Hmmm.... Okay. Maybe then if Bill Gates acknowledged the Tooth Fairy she would be real.... simply because a bunch of people started saying it and he noticed it. I am sure pragmatism had nothing to do with anything back then.
       
       

      And those thousands of copies of eyewitness accounts just sprang from nowhere I suppose


      Really? Eyewitness accounts? From 2,000 years ago? Well Golly Gee Willickers! I stand corrected.
       
       

      Besides, faith in the New Testament documents means either forensic proof, loyalty or faithfulness - just the opposite of your definition


      Trying saying that out loud a couple times and then think about it some more. There is no forensic proof. Loyalty has nothing to do with Faith. Faithfulness can be synonymous with Loyalty, but Loyalty does not automatically imply faith.

      The opposite of my definition would be belief based on factual material evidence and logical proof. A word for that might be reason.

      That is a problem with people in religion. They like to confuse words to support their own faith. Faith, Belief, Reason, Skepticism (spelled correctly), Logic, etc. are all words that we should use correctly when communicating our ideas. The original point of my post.

      As I predicted, the very notion that all faiths are equal and that they are not based on anything "real" would offend someone. I think you need to deal with a rather important fact:

      You C A N N O T prove that god exists, or more accurately, change your sets of beliefs from being based on intangible and irrational assumptions TO proven and repeatable results from experiments derived from logical theories about material evidence being presented. .

      God does not have an email address, you can't find him in a Starbucks sipping a Frappachino, and he will not be visiting orphans tomorrow.

      Now EQUALLY true is the fact that nobody can DISPROVE the existence of God either.

      Which brings us back to my original point again, which is that all faiths are equal. None of them, by the very definition of the word, are based on anything "real". I have not said they are bad, in fact I said they are good. I love my faith, I just know it for what it is. It is my unwavering belief in something I cannot prove or even put into words. Some people would mock me and others for that. The so called "hard core scientists".

      Well in order to be a good "scientist" in my opinion, you must also be open to the possibilities. The possibility that you don't know shit, or more accurately, your understanding of the universe and how it works might not be the truth.

      You have stated that I am presenting "reasoned skepticism" and doing it rather poorly. Well I would challenge you, in a friendly way too, to prove to me the existence of God and provide the factual evidence behind the New Testament.

      I am truly open to anything, since I have faith that nothing is impossible. I am not opposed to the idea that the evidence may exist, just that it has been found and presented to the world. So please give me your logical arguments, your material evidence. Show me the money Mav[LAG]! :)
  2. Won't be the first time a religion did this. by FatSean · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Religious groups are well known for twisting the words of non-members to support the wacky claims. Some nut-case Christer fundies produced a movie that twisted the words of several well known Atheists.

    What do you expect from groups that require that members first suspend disbelief and accept claims of 'eternal life'?

    --
    Blar.
    1. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by headkase · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Calling Scientology a "religious group" stretches it in my books: they are a scam that hides behind being a cult which promotes itself as a religion.

      --
      Shh.
    2. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Idiomatick · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uh "they are a scam ... which promotes itself as a religion." What's your definition of a religion?

    3. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Religious groups are well known for twisting the words of non-members to support the wacky claims. Some nut-case Christer fundies produced a movie that twisted the words of several well known Atheists.

      Impressive. Two posts into the thread and someone's already trying to turn it into a debate over all religions. I'm not accusing you of being a Scilon - merely pointing out that it's a tactic the Scilons try to cultivate, because it turns the entire discussion into a debate about theology, effectively distracting everyone from the main issue.

      Were this a thread about religion, for instance, it'd be fine, but the Co$ debate isn't about theology.

      Organizations that use barratry ("The purpose of a lawsuit is not to win, but to harass") and violence (consider the similarities between the mysterious fates of Judge Swearinger's dog in 1998, and the fate of an outed anonymous protester's cat earlier this week) as a matter of policy are not religions.

    4. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by headkase · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Something the person at the top when looking into themselves honestly believes.

      --
      Shh.
    5. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A scam that's been running for a few centuries at least. Anything less (i.e. some of the people still knowing the religion's founder) is just a cult.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by wattrlz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The whole point of a religion is that whatever's at the top isn't a person.

    7. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Neon+Aardvark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Religions are just successful cults, and money/power drives all cults.

      --
      Azural - instrumentals
    8. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by b96miata · · Score: 4, Informative

      A religion generally starts off as one, does not have mandatory financial contributions (no matter how strongly they may *suggest* them) and was not founded by a guy who was previously on record as saying he should found a religion because that's where the money is. They also don't sue people who dare leave the fold.

    9. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by damienl451 · · Score: 5, Informative

      No true. I'd say that the RCC is the exception, not the rule here. If I remember correctly, there is no eccleasiastical hierarchy in Islam, which already accounts for about 1.5 billion people. There is no formal hierarchy in Judaism either, and many Protestant denominations are also made up of autonomous local congregations that associate on a voluntary basis (e.g. the SBC in the US). Even those denominations that are more organized do not usually have a "central point of authority" as the Pope to Roman Catholics.

    10. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Schnapple · · Score: 5, Funny

      A phrase that gets passed around: Calling Scientology a 'religion' really is an awful lot like calling Dunkin' Donuts a 'restaurant'

    11. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Belief Systems Classified by Time Since Inception

      0 - 0.5 years : Eccentricity

      0.5 - 10 years : Scam

      10 - 100 years : Cult

      100 - 5,000 years : Genuine theology that reflects the true nature of being and the foundation of our civilization

      5,000 + : Myth

    12. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Something the person at the top when looking into themselves honestly believes.


      Why should that be important. Hell, the Anglican Church had an Archbishop of Canterbury who doubted the divinity of Christ. Does that mean the entire Episcopalian movement no longer qualifies as a religion?

      The chief difference seems to be that a successful religion is a sect or cult that manages to get near-universal acceptance as a religion within the societies that it exists. Scientology is seen by most of society as a crazy-ass money-hungry cult with a pack of swirly-eyed true believers who pay their money and believe any and all nonsense that Hubbard and his heirs shove down their throats.

      Mormons were in the same boat for decades. They were seen as sexually deviant heretics. Fortunately for them, in those days a cult could basically seize control of a large, unpopulated area and grow relatively undisturbed for decades, and by the time the greater society finally met them head on again, they're numbers were sufficient that they had to be dealt with as a religion.
      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    13. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If not, the whole thing is a scam.
      And if so?

      It'll still be a scam, just a conventional, accepted and well-integrated one.

      Scientologists are loons for sure, but let's not differentiate their own brand of crazy from all the others.

      As Douglas Adams said- 'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'.
      --
      "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
    14. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Dallas+Caley · · Score: 4, Informative

      If thats the definition for a religion then scientology definitely fits the bill. I speak as a person who was raised by scientologists but has considered them to be one of the most evil institutions i have ever had contact with. It's a shame because some of the ideas behind the "religion" are not bad. If the organization weren't hell-bent on bankrupting every member just so that you might have a chance at reaching spiritual enlightenment then it might be something i would subscribe to.

    15. Re:Won't be the first time a religion did this. by Deanalator · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I was down protesting on the 10th of February, I realized something disturbing. I had always thought of Scientology as something of a cult that suckers dumb people into believing that they are sick, and need to pay money to get better.

      To some extent it is that, but there is a much creepier aspect. From what I have seen, Scientology seems to be more of a social club for wealthy people who are interested in learning how to use aggressive psychological attacks such as hypnotism.

      I started reading Dianetics, and it really does seem like a manual for using psychological attacks. A thetan is like a soul, but also like an influence. Non scientologists are infected with alien thetans, and once you are "clear" of them, you can become an "operating thetan". Then you can begin infecting the minds of others. Before it had always confused me that non scientologists have to rid themselves of thetans, but scientologists refer to eachother as thetans.

      It was pretty sickening to realize that so many scientologists know exactly what it is all about. They develop new psychological attacks. Then they train their followers. The followers then use those attacks to manipulate those around them so they can become more successful in their careers, and increase the size of the church. This money is then reinvested in developing new psychological attack methods.

      Someone please correct me if any part of this is inaccurate.

  3. Since when by Nimey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    did Scientology have credibility?

    Besides among the easily duped?

    --
    Hail Eris, full of mischief...

    E pluribus sanguinem
  4. Video? Nice! by rrohbeck · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do they have any cool vids of Xenu and the starships? Volcanoes? That could rival the Sci-Fi Channel.

  5. Yes, it's the video channel that's done it by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Prior to that screwup, they were a vast reservoir of credibility.

  6. Probably worth mentioning... by Michael+Hunt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...CoS has already been busted (albeit not overly publicly) for releasing a video compilation of death threats, hate mail, etc, which had said death threats in higher res than their supposed 'original' posting on youtube. Suss as....

    (can't be screwed finding cites right now, worked for 26 hours straight, and now i'm plain out of it... little help?)

  7. Tell me about it by Weaselmancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd be more surprised if the site launched and everyone found out it was entirely on the up-and-up.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  8. Re:The last frantic grapsing of a desperate group by JavaRob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No.

    You forget: there's a sucker born every minute. And those suckers will continue to buy penis enlargement products from poorly written emails, and give their remaining money to Scientology.

    A lot of these people also feel that the criticism and "attacks" on Scientology only *validate* it. How do you argue with that?

  9. Re:The main issue is lying liars. by Abreu · · Score: 5, Informative

    Most christian churches do not charge their members thousands of dollars on compulsive seminaries. Tithing is voluntary, last time I looked.

    --
    No sig for the moment.
  10. Re:Scientology is the quintessential religion by AioKits · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am certain this has been stated many times, but here I go anyways, cause I'm new and want karma... For me it is not necessarily what they believe. You could believe that the waffle I toasted this morning is the 'Supreme Being' and bathe in maple syrup (thanks Canada!) as part of your religious rituals and I could care less... What gets my goat is that you must pay to pray, so to speak. If I wanted to learn about the beliefs of Christianity, Islam, Wicca, or even Voodoo, there are books out there and for the most part, a 'holy person' you can throw questions at. They won't ask for cash if you want to advance your knowledge of their belief system. Scientology requires that for you to become a more true believer, you pay, and through the friggen nose (I think the CoS has more to do with this than their individual adherents). I could be wrong, who knows.

    --
    "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
  11. It is a cult/organized crime by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't give a fuck if you believe in Xenu or Jesus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but the Church Scientology lies to and steals from it's 'believers', and does horrible psychological damages to people and their familes. No mainstream religion is remotely as corrupt and sadistic.

    Please read for a start:

    http://www.exscientologykids.com/

    --
    "I only speak the truth"
    Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    1. Re:It is a cult/organized crime by radl33t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Other religions have the benefit of time to hide their terrible deeds.

  12. Re:The last frantic grapsing of a desperate group by ardle · · Score: 4, Funny

    those suckers will continue to buy penis enlargement products from poorly written emails, and give their remaining money to Scientology I'm sure Tom Cruise won't appreciate you broadcasting his secret ;-)
    Wouldn't it be mad if the penis enlargment companies were owned by the COS or a subsidiary?
  13. Re:The main issue is lying liars. by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Nietzsche is God" - Logic

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  14. Re:Scientology is the quintessential religion by eclectic4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    True:

    When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth.

    When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.

    When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth.

    When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth.

    etc... etc... etc... Jesus was just a guy that had Pagan mythological stories thrown on his name decades after his death to start a religion. Nothing more.

    --

    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
  15. Re:Scientology is the quintessential religion by IorDMUX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously, if there is *anyone* here criticizing Scientology, but believing the quaran or the bible, you are hypocrites.
    You make it sound as though I have a problem with their beliefs. But I've got to tell you, I don't give a flying DC3 what they believe. I could care less.
     
    Yes, I consider myself religious, but (unless he tells me that he wants to sit down and have an intelligent discussion about it) what the next guy chooses to believe is up to him, and whether it's deism, humanism, theism, or FSMism, that's fine by me. I have a problem when he (and yes, this includes members of my own religion) uses coercion or threats or violence or elitism etc. to force his views... and hence my beef with Scientology.
    --
    >> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
  16. Radar article on Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    In case anybody is interested, Radar Magazine has a long article about scientology and the anonymous protests.

    Cult Friction: After an embarrassing string of high-profile defection and leaked videos, Scientology is under attack from a faceless cabal of online activists. Has America's most controversial religion finally met its match?
  17. Re:News for nerds. Stuff that matters. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This article/topic is neither.

    Scientology and the Internet explains the history.

    In brief:
    - attacks on USENET involving forged rmgroups in 1995.
    - attacks on USENET involving Hipcrime-style spam for many years since then.
    - legal attacks that resulted in the compromise of every user of the anon.penet.fi anonymous remailer in 1996.
    - Angry about copyright term extensions? What we jokingly refer to as the 1998 Mickey Mouse Protection Act was passed into law as the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act. By a staggering coincidence, Sonny Bono was a Scilon.
    - Angry about the DMCA? The Mickey Moust Protection Act wasn't enough of a legal club, and guess who was one of the first organizations to use it in mid-1999?
    - And guess who was behind the DMCA attacks against Google in 2002.

    - And last but not least, guess who was behind the DMCA attack against Slashdot itself in 2001.

    Sorry you haven't been paying attention for the past decade, dude, but this is news for nerds, and it is stuff that matters.

  18. Doctrines of real religions are not secret by walterbyrd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have never heard of a real religion that gets upset when anybody exposes the beliefs of that religion.