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OOXML Will Pass Amid Massive Irregularities

Tokimasa notes a CNet blog predicting that OOXML will make the cut. Updegrove agrees, as does the OpenMalasia blog. Reports of irregularities continue to surface, such as this one from Norway — "The meeting: 27 people in the room, 4 of which were administrative staff from Standard Norge. The outcome: Of the 24 members attending, 19 disapproved, 5 approved. The result: The administrative staff decided that Norway wants to approve OOXML as an ISO standard." Groklaw adds reportage of odd processes in Germany and Croatia.

20 of 329 comments (clear)

  1. This is getting ridiculous by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is insane.

    No day goes by without hearing from some croporate giant running roughshod over the laws, procedures or institutions of democratic countries.

    The United States have let a handful of mega-croporations totally wreck it's economy with the blessing of the government that was elected while pulling the wool over the electorate's eyes.

    It is time for the people to revolt, and put the croporations back to where they belong by firmly asserting the power of the government over croporations, if need by, by the croporate death penalty and the confiscation of the croporation's assets.

    The government has thoroughly been subverted by croporate cronies; those should be charged with subversive sedition and thrown in jail and the key tossed in the Marianas trench.

    1. Re:This is getting ridiculous by mactard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems this has little to do with the USA though. I agree with most of your points, but the countries listed can grow a pair too, you know!

    2. Re:This is getting ridiculous by MrNaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why? Because government has an entire intelligence agency at its disposal and regulatory control over the media? Wake up call: In the western world, for all intents and purposes Big government == Big corporate.

      --
      I hate printers.
    3. Re:This is getting ridiculous by mabhatter654 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Considering that the RIAA and others are lobbying for just those rights for companies I'd be worried...

    4. Re:This is getting ridiculous by countach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft's core competency has always been in corporate deals, politicking and product positioning rather than actually making a product good enough to stand on its own merits. This can work for a while, but my prediction is we are near to the end game of this strategy.

    5. Re:This is getting ridiculous by VultureMN · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think it's necessarily _illegal_ corruption (flat-out bribery) that people are complaining about; a company can still stay within the law while doing nasty, immoral stuff. Think about the sea of lobbyists and the resultant corporate influence in the US: legal, but still reprehensible.

      Add that to the fact that the vast majority of people haven't heard of, or simply don't give a rats ass about, the ISO process. Tada, they can pull these kinds of shenanigans without much risk of a public opinion backlash.

    6. Re:This is getting ridiculous by conlaw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And not one leak? Not one failed, incorruptible whistleblower?

      Obviously, you didn't RTFA. The German, Norwegian and Croatian members whose votes were essentially negated have all blown the whistle and it's having just as much effect as the detailed account of Dubya's lies about Iraq has had on continuing the war he started. I think people in many countries, starting here in the good old USA, should start reading some history; e.g., "When in the course of human events...."

    7. Re:This is getting ridiculous by orasio · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm with AC here. Are Groklaw, etc, really suggesting that several standards bodies in several nations are /all/ corrupt? And not one leak? Not one failed, incorruptible whistleblower? Or is it just that, whatever you may think of the standard, Microsoft, etc, that OOXML just has enough to get past? I know it's an ugly concept, but it seems more plausible. And only natural / human that when your championed standard/objections to something are overlooked/fail, that you look for a culprit, any culprit, that overlooks your own weaknesses and / or failings?


      That's more what it seems like to me, despite my personal objections and issues with OOXML.

      In my country, Uruguay, they were not corrupt. They were just ignorant. The vote of government organization was in the line of: we don't really know what this is all about, but MS software is important to us, so we think it's OK to standardize it. Vote YES.

      I think that, because this is a key issue for MS, they exploited the system in every way they could, you don't even need corruption in most places, if the have the right vulnerabilities.

      The reason why we are all saying that it can't be possible that they accept it is that some of us read the standard, of excerpts from it. The complaint is that, even to lay people, it is very easy to see it's not a standard at all, and tries to standardize an area that already has a real standard approved (ODF), without improving on it. It should be easier to spot for standards specialists. There are issues where you can have different opinions, but this seems too clear cut to even be discussed.

      A standard should be something that allows you to test compliance. OOXML, in lots of points does not help you build a compliance test. Of course, those tags that say your should render content as Word9x come to mind. That is why it's so clear to me that I can't be approved, in its current form. Of course, it could be improved and become a standard, but it has not happened yet.
    8. Re:This is getting ridiculous by stoicio · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When 19 out of 24 *VOTE NO* to a proposed standard
      and it still passes, there's something wrong in
      Norway.

      The simplest answer is usually the best answer.

    9. Re:This is getting ridiculous by AJWM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see how its possible to publicly bribe so many board member in so many countries and get away with it.

      See, you've missed half the trick right there. It's not a matter of bribing "so many board members", it's just a matter of getting the committee chairs on your side and having them get creative with the voting or vote recording process. You don't have to bribe all the members (or even most of them) if the chairperson can tell them "'no' votes aren't allowed" for obscure procedural reasons (Germany), or if they ignore an overwhelming 'no' vote (Norway), or if they can say that voting will be extended to allow email votes by those that didn't show up at the meeting -- and any that don't send email will be taken as a 'yes' vote (Poland).

      As for swinging committee chairs to your side, here's a pretty good explanation of that process.

      Then of course there's just stacking the working groups by having all your Microsoft-Partner business buddies decide to join up and take part.

      --
      -- Alastair
    10. Re:This is getting ridiculous by AJWM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are Groklaw, etc, really suggesting that several standards bodies in several nations are /all/ corrupt? And not one leak? Not one failed, incorruptible whistleblower?

      Not at all. It's precisely because of the leaks and whistleblowers that we're aware of the corruption and interference that has taken place. And your "/all/ corrupt" is a strawman -- it doesn't require everyone in the standards body to be corrupted, just a few key individuals with influence over the voting process.

      (Now, please put down the Microsoft talking points and step away from the keyboard.)

      --
      -- Alastair
    11. Re:This is getting ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is a corporation from USA but that's it.

      I'm from Finland and really ashamed on how all went. In Finland, most of the people in the meeting opposed (many corporations, two of the ministries, etc.) so the chairman (who was a replaced one, the previous one opposed OOXML so he had to leave) decided they didn't vote but made decision based on general consensus even though "complete unanimity wasn't achieved". I mean... What?! There was one of the changed votes (5 votes need to be changed from previous try that OOXML would pass and this was one of them).

      While it would be easy to blame it all on the evil USA and their nasty corporations... Ofcourse the corporations roam free if they are allowed to but why in hell are they? Finland (among other countries) needs to look into itself too and ponder "What the hell just happened and WHY?".

      Captcha is very appropriate... Dishonor

  2. I agree. The ISO is now the M$O. by PaulGaskin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The League of Nations came and went. The United Nations has allowed it's self to be discredited by militant, hegemonic nations. Now the ISO has been compromised by a flawed process and corrupt bureaucrats enabling a monopoly corporation. This international bureaucracy is no more legitimate than the decisions they make.

    --
    Freedom is free.
  3. Reasons to hate OOXML by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. OpenDocument already exists. What good does a second format, based on identical principles, do for the world? 2. OOXML requires the use of patented algorithms, which makes open source developers nervous, especially when a company that despises open source and has an ongoing campaign to kill the open source movement happens to be the patent holder...and happens to be pushing the format. 3. OOXML is exceedingly difficult to implement, giving Microsoft an automatic advantage over everyone else and forcing us to play catch-up (though OOo3 will have native support, IIRC). 4. This is /., and the format is Microsoft supported. What did you expect?

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  4. Re:I don't get it by JustShootMe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is what happens when academics go head to head with corporations.

    The corporations will win every time. As smart as academics are, they just aren't prepared for this kind of thing.

    --
    For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
  5. Re:I Don't Get It? by dltaylor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because, unlike most other other ISO standards for documents, like fax G3 and G4 compression, and ODF (Open Document Format) OOXML literally cannot be implemented by anyone other than Microsoft. This is not because the entire rest of the world contains no competent programmers, but because the standard simply does not have enough information to do so. Microsoft wrote the proposed standard with what amount to calls into their libraries of legacy Word code, the actions of which are NOT documented, rather than "tag X requires an indent level of 30000 millipels from the indent level of the enclosing block", or whatever.

    The entire purpose of OOXML is to subvert the increasing call for public documents to be stored in a format that can A) be read without buying Word/Office/..., on the theory that documents created in a citizen's government should be available to those citizens without paying a corporate "tax", and B) that by documenting the format of the documents, readers/editors can be created, as needed, at a future time when the original creation tool may no longer exist or have a computer on which to run, unlike, say, Word documents, where support for older formats is simply dropped by Microsoft.

    Microsoft is an ongoing criminal organization, and as such, should be seized under the RICO act, and its parts sold off or its source code simply published for those parts without buyers, and the buyers should be forever blocked from forming a cartel, single company, sharing directors, ... to prevent a resurrection of Microsoft.

  6. No cover up. Corruption is blatant. Who cares? by walterbyrd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Cover up? Msft is not even shy about their brazen corruption anymore.

    Yes, there was corruption. Tons of it. It has all been very well documented. Read groklaw.net or noooxml.org.

    What does msft care is the slashdot/groklaw crowd doesn't like it?

  7. Re:I Don't Get It? by symbolset · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why does /. hate OOXML so much? Every time a story is ran about OOXML, everyone on /. seems to scream revolution and blasphemy.

    Read it and get back to us if you still have questions.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  8. Re:Gross sounding title by Daengbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hopefully, everyone else agrees that it's shit, but I don't think that'll happen. OOXML will pass, MS OFfice will use its own, non-standard version of OOXML, governments will claim they are in compliance with laws requiring open standards, and the rest of us will be in the same boat we've been in for fifteen years. It's all quite sick.

  9. Re:Gross sounding title by fwarren · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Hopefully, everyone else agrees that it's shit, but I don't think that'll happen. OOXML will pass, MS OFfice will use its own, non-standard version of OOXML, governments will claim they are in compliance with laws requiring open standards, and the rest of us will be in the same boat we've been in for fifteen years. It's all quite sick.

    You have forgotten all of the benefits the the ISO process.

    Lets see. There is making a mockery of the standards making process. There is a cheapening of the term ISO standard. When I see that in the future, it won't have as much meaning to me. It does not mean something will work, or is used by the industry, or even that it is possible to implement. I know it is not multi-vendor. It will not prevent lock-in. Any data comitted to it may or may not be portable.

    Also, as serves them right. The ISO has been crippled by this. All of those members that came on board to help Microsoft. Well, they are not showing up at any of the other meetings. So when a standards body meets. Has 40 members only 10 of them show up, and you get 4 YES, 4 NO, 2 abstain and 30 not present. Well shucks. Things just about grind to a halt.

    --
    vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.