Unique Broadband Over Powerline Project Planned For Mosques

Lucas123 writes "Broadband over powerline (BPL) provider Velchip is heading up a project that will offer 60 million very unique network users an unlimited high speed Internet connection of 224Mbps at a cost of only around RM5 ($1.58) per user per month. That's the cheapest, fastest internet connection in the world. The network is slated for use in the $14 billion 'Smart Mosque' project, which will be rolled out over three years in Indonesia and will link together 400,000 mosques. To add some perspective, in the US Verizon FiOS currently offers up to 30 Mbps downloads and 5 Mbps uploads starting at $42.99 a month. BPL modems use existing electrical power lines to deliver high speed Internet access and data transmission."

Comments

Unlimited?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you'll need Allah's help for that.

Re:Unlimited?

[catwh0re]

A fast connection to your ISP, doesn't mean you'll have a fast Internet experience.

While this will no doubt allow the ISP to deliver cache/proxy data very quickly, it will not be financially viable to provide very fast live-internet down this pipe. E.g anything that can be classified as a web-application will probably still be quite average/slow speeds.

The price comes about from using an existing infrastructure, as you know the biggest cost in rolling out a network is the transmission medium. (Especially if it's not your expense to maintain it.)

Re:Unlimited?

[Stellian]

That of course if Allah has nothing against millions of believers downloading porn on bittorrent at super-high speeds.

Re:Unlimited?

[memorycardfull]

The story says that the connections are expected to to enhance economic growth and internet literacy, which makes sense to me. It makes me uneasy to hear insinuations from presumably intelligent people that a developing and/or Muslim nation has little need for broadband except as a weapon. The story about ambition to use the internet as a weapon is over here: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/02/1734212

Re:Unlimited?

[Dan541]

That's what happens when morons get mod point!

I expect this post will also be modded down by a moron mod!

Whoa there Nelly!

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

That's the cheapest, fastest internet connection in the world.

No. It's not the fastet, because it doesn't exist.

To add some perspective, in the states Verizon FiOS currently offers up to 30 Mbps downloads and 5 Mbps uploads starting at $42.99 a month.

Yes, they do. Right now. Who knows what Verizon will be offering when (if) these guys get this network going. Awesome. The US still has better internet access than much of the third world.

Re:Whoa there Nelly!

[uffe_nordholm]

30Mb/s doesn't sound like much, if you're after the world record... A lady in Karlstad (Sweden) had her son install(*) something a bit faster: 40Gb/s. (article in Swedish: http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.153268). Although she seems to have used this opportunity to do much more than dry her laundry. * I think the initiative came form the son, not the old lady.

Re:Whoa there Nelly!

[Anonymous Coward]

The US still has better internet access than much of the third world.

You must be so proud.

Re:Whoa there Nelly!

[strength_of_10_men]

The US still has better internet access than much of the third world. Comparing our internet access to third world countries is pathetic. Why don't we have better internet access than ALL of the third world, if not the best internet access, period?

Re:Whoa there Nelly!

[thefoul]

Yes, they do. Right now. Who knows what Verizon will be offering when (if) these guys get this network going. Awesome. The US still has better internet access than much of the third world. Oh that's reassuring. We're doing better than the third world everybody, cheers! Whatever happened to being a superpower? An economic juggernaut? What a joke we've turned into if the third world starts beating us in internet access.

Re:Whoa there Nelly!

[asuffield]

Why don't we have better internet access than ALL of the third world, if not the best internet access, period?

Because bad internet access is more profitable. If everybody had gigabit lines to their homes, it would be very hard to sell "faster" business lines to businesses at an inflated cost. By artificially limiting the low end of the market, they inflate the value of the high end, and hold the whole thing together by passing laws to block any competition. Isn't capitalism grand?

Spec needs to be clearer

[kg261]

Well it's not clear from the article if it's 224Mbps for all 60 million users. Also, the premises could have 224Mbps locally, but the end to end a fraction of that.

Bad Idea

[ajs318]

Broadband over power lines is an extraordinarily bad idea.

It might just about work in a country where there is no radio or TV broadcasting or mobile telephony to interfere with, and no panic about the effects of stray RF waves on the human body.

Re:Bad Idea

[faedle]

BPL typically uses frequencies much lower than where most TV broadcasting takes place, and is WAAAAY below the frequencies used by mobile phones.

As far as RF exposure goes, these are power lines. The power levels that BPL uses are way below the EMP emissions that are coming off the power lines as the result of.. oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that they are carrying alternating current oscillating at 50 or 60 Hertz?

Now, there is concern amongst users of HF and low-band VHF. Public safety, amateur, maritime, and some broadcast ('AM' [more accurately called "medium wave"] and short-wave) are all well within the frequency bands used by BPL, and in most of the first world these users are very vocal with their complaints.

Re:Bad Idea

[O Blimey]

BPL (Broadband over Power Lines) can actually be a brilliant idea.

There are 2 different concepts:
1) Using high voltage long distance lines
2) Using household voltage lines and distances

The first approach has been pretty much abandoned. The second is very much alive and competing fiercely with Wi-Fi.
There are 2 competing camps, one being HomePlug and the other using chips from a Spanish company, ES2.
I have conducted trials with HomePlug AV in a marina. The claim is 200Mbps but you won't even get this when you plug 2 of those adapters side by side on an extension cord.
A more realistic assumption is around 50 Mbps. I have actally tested this in a marina over a distance of 120 meters and measured 58 Mbps rock solid stable.
So far I've bought about 40 units.

Could someone enlighten me?

[Paktu]

Why would you need high speed internet at a mosque of all places? Who goes to a church, synagogue, temple, Scientology brainwashing center, etc. to access the Web?

Re:Could someone enlighten me?

[MichaelSmith]

Probably because the Mosque doubles as Town Hall and general purpose public building in many parts of Indonesia. I think this is a great way to enlighten people and broaden their experience of the world.

Re:Could someone enlighten me?

[monkaru]

In much of the world mosques, Buddhist temples and\or Catholic churches are the only places the locals can get a proper education. Ultra high speed internet could be extremely useful to them when divvied up among thousands of students and religious scholars.

Re:Indonesia?

[Kyokushi]

The contractors are Malaysian--but yes, I hardly believe this will go on. Power lines in Indonesia are horrible, usually they black out whenever there's heavy storm for some reason. Nevermind that some people STEAL power lines and cables for money (how do they do that I have no frickin clue). Add the incompetency of bureucrats, and there you go. I don't know how does islamic organizations respond to this, and most importantly, who is going to pay for all of this. We got a huge national debt already, and not much people have a laptop--and those who do certainly don't bring them to mosques, where footwear got lost all the time.

Re:It'll never happen

[HateBreeder]

You might be surprised to learn that "square waves" aren't traveling as is on the lines... they are being modulated in a way that makes them less susceptible to noise, and span across a limited bandwidth... this has the side effect of making them look more like a finite combination of sine waves. Besides, copper telephone lines used for ADSL aren't shielded either.

bpl is a hoax

[eggled]

Any power engineer worth his salt knows the power lines can be modeled as an RLC network... creating losses. These have been optimized for low frequencies (50-60 Hz). Once you get above 1 kHz, your signal won't propogate more than 500 feet. 1MHz and you're lucky to get 50 feet. BPL doesn't actually use the copper line as a waveguide, but creates a rude radio transmitter in the GHz range, which can cause all kinds of trouble. The reason they're trying this abroad is that it's already been rejected outright in the US.

Re:bpl is a hoax

[Goody]

What you're talking about is PLC which is the low frequency predecessor to BPL that is used for grid control functions. I think PLC goes up to about 500 khz. That technology is proven, works fairly well and doesn't interfere with radio spectrum. Many companies are using it for automatic meter reading systems (AMR), a market that BPL has been wanting to break into, though I believe hasn't due to overall costs. The original poster is essentially correct about the properties of powerlines not being suited for broadband. BPL uses radio frequencies from 1.8 Mhz to about 88 Mhz, depending on the system and capacity. These frequencies are severely attenuated on the lines and the lines act like a natural antenna, radiating them into the adjacent area. BPL signals have been detected up to a mile or two away from the lines and NTIA modeling showed that aircraft frequencies would probably be affected about 20 miles away. The FCC implemented mandatory frequency notching to protect aircraft frequencies and vendors have also designed optional frequency notching to protect other frequency bands when the carrier deems it necessary. From a market standpoint, BPL is at a severe disadvantage because the underlying technology just can't scale due to its many technical issues. After over ten years of development abroad and five years of a well-funded marketing and FCC-lobbying effort, there are only a handful of commercial BPL systems in the US and FCC reports show customer numbers below 10,000. BPL is included in the FCC's "Other" category, which should tell something about how insignificant it is. However, I think you'll see some traction in dirt poor countries where any bandwidth and any quality of service is acceptable and the wireless spectrum issues are ignored.

Re:Why?

[jamesh]

Why would a mosque need internet access? Isn't it suppose to be a place of worship, not an internet cafe?

People should be free to worship their deity of choice in their own way. If they want to do so sitting in front of a computer screen looking at pictures of naked women then who are you to judge them?

Ok so the worth of freedom to slashdot users

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Is less than 200 mbit. Separation of religion and state is probably worth even less.

Great to know.

Re:Ok so the worth of freedom to slashdot users

[Kyokushi]

Save one province, Indonesia does not run on Islamic laws.

The news headline and article are bullshit.

[aliquis]

Why do they cound 400.000 mosques as 60 million users? If I have 10 people in my appartment do my Internet connection become much cheaper then? To me the price seems to be 1500 times more than what they say for each 224 mbps connection, which are 2370 $. Sure the dollar are falling but it's still expensive as hell, and it's neither of cheapest or fastest there is.

Just marketing bullshit.

Who cares if there are 1500 possible mosques visitors in each mosque?

Re:The news headline and article are bullshit.

[aliquis]

If that's the case when cool, except whenever some religous moron decide that whatever religion they have are wrong their Internet connection will be screwed. Connection reset by Jesus?

Thanks for the information.

Note for the Slashdot Grammar Council

[lancejjj]

60 million very unique network users I can make the argument that a particular network design is "very" unique, suggesting that the design has "many distinctive attributes". Many grammar weenies would vehemently disagree with me.

But I have a tough time understanding that there could be 60 million "very" unique network users. I'd suppose that they'd just be unique.

Re:BPL also trashes the airwaves

[trash eighty]

I've heard Indonesian radio, its probably a blessing

Re:It'll never happen

[Goody]

Besides, copper telephone lines used for ADSL aren't shielded either.

Twisted pair copper is self-shielding; it's one of the reasons why we use it today in telephony instead of the old open straight wire.

BPL is deploying in the U.S.

[colfer]

I live in the deplyment area in Virginia. Here is the U.S. map: http://www.bpl.coop/deploymentmap.php It is funded partly by the old Rural Electrificatio Agency of the 1930's! Its successor agency actually, in the Ag Dept. The problem of interfering with radio, especially ham readio, was supposedly fixed by "notching of" certain frequencies.

But... deployment here is three years behind schedule. Customers of two substations have it, but I don't know how well it is working. The company claims some equipment problem.
Rural users are really looking forward to this, if it works, or any alternative to satellite. The electrical co-op (non-profit utility, like a credit union compared to a bank, established in the 1930's) said the price would be $25/month. Satellite is $40 with terrible contracts and equipment costs. Not to mention gamers cannot live with the 0.7+ second lag.

There is no alternative in rural areas, where our cell service is marginal. Dialup with images off has been fun! More important than images off is selectively blocking Flash.

Deployment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication#Deployments But see the next section, "Concluded Deployments" with a long list of place where BPL has been dismantled.

As for the tech. aspects, note you can run internet over a fence wire. :) I'll try to find the link.

Excuse me... Excuse me...

[denzacar]

I just wanted to ask a question. What does God need with a internet connection?

Third World?

[Lorien_the_first_one]

Hardly a fair comparison. Japan vs. the US is a much better comparison. In some parts, they are offering 1Gbps. In most places, the average is 60 Mbs for about $35/mo.

Republicans have never been big on competition. Just ask their friends who helped to write the 1996 Telecommunications Act. That whole "Republican Revolution" was really a revolution for their *Republican* investor friends.

Bear Stearns will quietly tell you that Bush just wanted to bail his friends out. That's the free market for ya.

Until the market gets *really* free from the incumbents, we aren't going to see very high speeds on our internet connections. Here's a great link on the subject of how Bush and his friends let it happen:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/28/AR2007082801990_pf.html

Yes, Republicans like free markets, as long as its free for *Republican* investors to pillage, rape and burn.

So the next time you wonder why you're still using DSL at 1.5 Mbs, just ask Bush. At least he knows what a checkout scanner in s supermarket looks like. (Or does he?) Or you can go here: www.speedmatters.org

Enjoy.

Re:Why?

[notabaggins]

Why would a mosque need internet access? Isn't it suppose to be a place of worship, not an internet cafe? In poor areas, the church or mosque or what have you is often also the center of community life. They don't have all the options available to urban first worlders. You still often see this even in the US today in small, rural areas. It was even more common in our agrarian past when Sunday was your only day off and the one big chance to go into town just to socialize.

I suspect this is why mosques hold such sway in their communities. Far as a community "center", there isn't anything but the mosque. Your only social and community life revolves around that institution.

Re:Indonesia?

[whiskey6]

Yeah, Indonesia is such a poor country. Whilst $1.58 is cheap to us, don't forget that the average salary over there is around $200/month, if that, which is why so many of them go work on cruise ships. When I was there a litre of gas was $.35-ish, a bottle of beer $.80 and a really freaking good local meal around $5 or so. So the rate may seem cheap, but it's actually quite a bit for your average Indonesian.

fritz their brains with unshielded RF

[johnrpenner]

i sure hope they don't fritz their brains by exposing themselves to that much HARSHLY modulated unshielded RF energy...

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron?

[budgenator]

You seem to have glossed over the point that Islam, Judaism and Christianity all worship the same God.

I'd be *delighted* to get close to max speed. . .

[JSBiff]

out of my current Internet connection. I don't get these broadband p!ssing contests. Such and such a country leads/trails the world in broadband connection speeds blah blah.

As the parent said, a fast connection to your ISP is relatively meaningless. I currently have TimeWarner RoadRunner cable. I can't complain about it *too* much. Overall it provides a pretty decent internet experience.

But, I know that the maximum download speed I ever got was somewhere around 6000 kbps (downloading a tv show from Amazon.com's Unbox service, and it surprised the hell out of me cause I had no idea the cable connection could even theoretically support that high of a speed), but most of the time, I don't get anywhere *close* to that. My maximum upload speed is somewhere between about 300-500 kbps (I haven't figured out exactly what it is yet).

However, in practice, most sites on the Internet are not able to push bits to me fast enough over the Internet to come anywhere close to making use of the speed I currently have. Getting another 100 mbps isn't going to help me *at all*, most of the time. A *good* server can usually send data to me at a rate of 200-400kbps. Bittorrent sometimes gives me 300-500kbps downloads, but more often than not, it's like 60kbps. When I'm uploading/seeding with Bittorrent, I rarely see Bittorrent's upload bandwidth top out higher than about 15 kbps (does TimeWarner throttle Bittorrent, or is there some other factor to blame here? I think I *should* be able to upload data to other computers at about 250-300 kbps, but never actually see that).

Anyhow, I won't care about a faster connection to my ISP until that connection is almost constantly saturated. I'd also rather see R&D/Investment go towards giving users a bit more upload capacity. The mindset that residential users shouldn't be hosting servers is kind of stupid, I think. Sure, most won't, but I'm pretty sure I don't have to argue the point too much on Slashdot that those who want to should be able to.

Re:It'll never happen

[asuffield]

No, I do mean self-shielding; the fact that it is fed balanced is a given.

Okay, then you're just wrong. Telephone lines are neither; their loop system is almost like a balanced signal, but not close enough to actually prevent interference, and they broadcast a very strong electromagnetic signal that you can pick up with sensitive radio equipment from a few tens of meters away (or with a couple of transistors and a 1.5v cell at a distance of a few cm). Whether or not the cable is twisted has no impact on this. Interference is a very real problem with telephone lines, and the only reason it doesn't affect radios is because it doesn't use those frequencies.

Re:BPL screws up shortwave radio

[jimrob]

I, as well as many others I'm sure, have submitted numerous news stories to /. about the flagrant bias toward BPL and the facts being covered up by the FCC. Oddly, none ever get posted. Mod me troll, I don't care; I think it's obvious what side of the issue the /. mods are on.

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/

Re:It'll never happen

[LM741N]

Your remarks about limited bandwidth are patently false. See the American Radio Relay League www.arrl.org and its discussion on BPL, and on their Federal Lawsuit against the FCC for promoting the wide bandwidth BPL. There are systems that have been developed, for example, at Motorola, that reduce interference in the 1Mhz to 30Mhz range, but no one seems to want to use them or care, despite violating FCC regulations that say that unlicensed devices cannot interfere with properly licensed ham radio and public service communication stations.

Re:I wonder...

[raju1kabir]

I think the government could have just as easily chosen a library...

Oh yes, one of the many wonderful public libraries that dot the villages and towns of Indonesia.

Somtimes I wonder if Turkish people generally regard themselves as Islam as more of a "suicide bombing public insurance program".

They better invent secular kurdism as well then.

Cow excrement

[JokoSembung]

As an Indonesian I can assure you that this is 100% pure undiluted Indonesian-made bovine manure. Currently the best available consumer level unlimited internet is offered by the government owned phone company. For $75/month you get an advertised 384kbps down and 64kbps up. More likely, on a good day you'll get 30KByte/s and 5KByte/s. That's shamefully slow, and it only started a couple of years ago. A 224Mbps line for every user bwahahahhahahahah, I'd be surprised if there's that much bandwidth for the whole country right now. Our government workers clocks in at 10am and clocks out at 2pm. This is including a 2 hour lunch. These folks can't keep the traffic light running correctly for more than a couple of days, let alone roll a nation-wide cutting edge broadband. If you still don't believe me. The same Information minister who is most likely the source of this idiotic bragging, a week ago decided to roll out free internet on mosques. And to keep this intention purely educational wanted to block porn at the ISP level. (Block porn, now *THAT* always work). And his idea to implement this is to block all forums requiring the users to be 18 years or older. Because apparently all forum with age check contains nothing but pictures of naked women (and men). Please folk, this ain't no Japan or Scandinavia.

Re:It'll never happen

[lucifuge31337]

I think you're confused about what direction the interference is prevented in. It tends to allow the cable to be shielded, protecting the signal on the cable itself, not to shield the cable from leaking/emitting signal. And it really doesn't work all that well. If you've ever used a fox and hound on a bundle of cables to figure out which is which, you'll notice that it bleeds over to other cables pretty badly, and bleeds to other pairs in the same cable horribly.