TiVo Patent Victory Over Dish Network Upheld

Thomas Hawk writes "An appeals court today shot down Dish Network's last chance to avoid a multi-million lawsuit verdict won by TiVo over their time shifting DVR technology. In addition to having to pay TiVo a minimum of $92 million, Dish Network will also now have to honor a court injunction to turn off DVR software to most of their customers. I hope Dish Network customers like commercials with their daily dose of Dr. Phil."

Comments

The shit's going to hit the fan

[JonTurner]

Americans are a complacent lot. They'll tolerate taxes and fee increases, regulation, government snooping, abridgement of century-old (and God given) rights, etc. with maybe one in ten thousand even bothering to pick up a telephone or a pen and contact their congressman or senator.

But if you fuck with their television, you'll see angry roving mobs take to the streets that make "21 days later" look like a tea party. I suspect this will not end well.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Cheesey]

If he does, then he's not in the minority. I bet 99% of the people who read this post are XBox, PS3 or Wii owners: I think the DRM on those systems is tolerated so widely because it just works. Even nerds who understand the implications are willing to buy into it.

Some people object to DRM on ideological grounds, but not many. It's like free software versus commercial software. You can decide to use only free software because it fits your personal ideology, but most people use a mixture of free and non-free software. If good free software doesn't exist for a task, then they pay up. Equally, we would all prefer to have no DRM, but we can tolerate it if it means we get to do something that we wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[fyngyrz]

Use is not synonymous with acceptance. Toleration or passivity in the face of it is; personally, I'm active in a number of ways, from not allowing DRM of any kind on the commercial executables we produce, to creating PD software that demonstrates the fallacy of the GPL type of approach, to pestering my representatives to stop creating legislation that presumes citizens are criminals absent probable cause, oath or affirmation, and warrant. I donate to causes that support this view, and speak against causes that criminalize legitimate action.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[OrangeTide]

As long as you continue to replace DVD players with Blu-Ray players. And continue to upgrade your equipment to DRM-enabled versions, you are accepting DRM. As long as there demand for DRM there will be supply. And providing demand is acceptance when alternatives exist and are actually cheaper.

Alternative to HDMI - component video, dvi
Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)
Alternative to iTunes - DRM-free MP3 download(amazon, etc), CDs that are not protected(harder to tell)

ps - try as we might, we will not be able to defeat the GPL empire. I do MIT license and PD software. But it just gets bundle with a bunch of GPL stuff anyways. GPL's model always wins even if it's the wrong model.

I tried

[OMNIpotusCOM]

I was trying to think of something really witty to say, something that would totally make the parent rethink their post and question their whole thought structure on Americans... but all I could come up with was this Family Guy quote:

"Who touched the thermostat?" ...how sad is that?

Dish DVR

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI this has no effect on anyone with a newer model Dish DVR, i.e. they aren't going to take it away from you. New software was pushed out 6 months ago to replace the infringing software. If you have a real old one, now is a good time to upgrade.

Re:Dish DVR

[Burgundy Advocate]

Actually, 'next-generation' software was pushed out for all models. Nothing is going to stop working. The article description is highly incorrect.

Responses

[ArkiMage]

Tivo's:
http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304285

Dish's:
http://dish.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304293

The latter includes these tidbits:

The decision, however, will have no effect on our current or future customers because EchoStar's engineers have developed and deployed 'next-generation' DVR software to our customers' DVRs. This improved software is fully operational, has been automatically downloaded to current customers, and does not infringe the Tivo patent at issue in the Federal Circuit's ruling.

"All DISH Network customers can continue to use their DVRs without any interruption or changes to the award-winning DVR features and services provided by DISH Network.

"We intend to appeal the Federal Circuit's ruling to the United States Supreme Court."

Re:Responses

[BACPro]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

It would seem that it is SOP for a manufacturer to EOL a piece of equipment. Tell the users they need to upgrade. There will be some gnashing of teeth, some users will flee, but if the new product is better... Some people need a shove to move on.

Having said that, I would be pissed off if someone told me I had to abandon a perfectly functional piece of kit and upgrade. I sure a community of terrorists that have hacked their own distro of Linux onto it to maintain functionality could be found. Someone would do it because they could.

Any idea how this affects Bell Express Vue in Canada? I notice about 3 months ago we received new software that did more things that were TIVO like. Record all eps, record all new eps, priorities and so on...

Re:Responses

[1729]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court? It might have something to do with the $92M judgement.

RTFA

[mrsam]

No, Dish can (and if you RTFAed, they will) appeal to the Supremes.

But, true, Dish has a tough hill to climb. The Supremes only accept a small percentage of all appeals. Dish's goose is mostly cooked.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[OrangeTide]

Knowing Tivo they begged and pleaded for months to get Dish to pay for a license. Either Tivo asked for too much or Dish was uncooperative.

Re:Its not going away

[rajafarian]

Pet peeve - you infringe somebody's patent - not violate it.

Yeah but violating it sounds funnier.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[Greyfox]

I'm rather biased against Echostar, having worked there briefly. Dealing with their HR department several years later to obtain some records was just as unpleasant as actually working for them was. I usually get knowing nods and comments from recruiters whenever I discuss it, so I know it is not just me who has had these sorts of problems with them.

If their legal department is anything like their HR department, talking to them was pretty much useless. I'd be surprised if Tivo had any recourse other than to sue them. Although I hate software patents and think that many DVR-related ones are completely retarded (TV Guide has one for the guide grid format, for example) I can't suppress a certain amount of glee that this misfortune has fallen upon Echostar. So I'm just going to point at them and go "Ha-ha!"

Re:Die, TiVo

[TooMuchToDo]

Perhaps it's that Tivo "just works"? If I wasn't gainfully employeed and had tens of hours a week to burn, I'd get a MythTV box. If I wanted to be frustrated all the time when watching TV, I'd get a Comcast DVR system. Tivo's benefit isn't software, or the guide data, it's usability. Those of us with disposable income don't mind paying $15/month to have all of our shows waiting for us and not having a problem when we try to watch them.

Re:Die, TiVo

[netringer]

TiVo has patents on the "jump to tick" on the timeline and the 8 second jump back among other things.

No. Those features DID NOT exist until Tivo came out with them, and you won't see them on any other other PVR - due to the patent.

TiVo's UI and remote and functionality is the absolute best thought out.

I'm going to have to give it up soon, thanks to DirecTV and TiVo divorcing, and TiVo deciding to diss legacy (Lifetime) customers with the removal of discount rates for additional units.

I really hate that situation.

I'll be signing with AT&T UVerse as soon as they get my house address listed as green in the database. I wish they used CableCARDs so I could keep my HD TiVo. *sigh*

Re:Unlikely

[Achromatic1978]

Replying to this to get a post near top:

DISH WILL NOT have "to turn off DVR to most of its customers". Anyone using the 622 or 722 (what they ship now as their DVR offerings) is NOT affected. Software was upgraded months ago specifically to get around the patent. If you have a far older DVR, then all this means, is you'll get a free upgrade to the new model, rather than paying for it. A pain in the ass though the patent is, a travesty this is not.

Mmm, pimping your own misleading blog FTW! It's not like many people in the comments of his own blog entry he submitted didn't point out this RATHER MAJOR DISCREPANCY... but oh noes! Removing scaremongering does not help pageviews, does it?