TiVo Patent Victory Over Dish Network Upheld

Thomas Hawk writes "An appeals court today shot down Dish Network's last chance to avoid a multi-million lawsuit verdict won by TiVo over their time shifting DVR technology. In addition to having to pay TiVo a minimum of $92 million, Dish Network will also now have to honor a court injunction to turn off DVR software to most of their customers. I hope Dish Network customers like commercials with their daily dose of Dr. Phil."

Comments

Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

since no drivers are available for Linux.

Re:Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

That's extremely misleading. You can get the monitor and mouse to work sometimes. I've heard stories of Linux hackers printing things up, although I've never seen an actual printout that originated from a Linux machine.

Re:Unlikely

[Achromatic1978]

Replying to this to get a post near top:

DISH WILL NOT have "to turn off DVR to most of its customers". Anyone using the 622 or 722 (what they ship now as their DVR offerings) is NOT affected. Software was upgraded months ago specifically to get around the patent. If you have a far older DVR, then all this means, is you'll get a free upgrade to the new model, rather than paying for it. A pain in the ass though the patent is, a travesty this is not.

Mmm, pimping your own misleading blog FTW! It's not like many people in the comments of his own blog entry he submitted didn't point out this RATHER MAJOR DISCREPANCY... but oh noes! Removing scaremongering does not help pageviews, does it?

Re:Unlikely

[NateTech]

Not to mention that Dish like other large companies who have lost patent cases in the past, will simply "license" whatever tech they infringed upon. The lawyers get paid (again) and Tivo gets a well-deserved cash-flow fix.

Whoever thinks Dish will simply turn off DVR service with the flick of a switch, is sorely lost when it comes to even simple business tactics, let alone creative thinking.

Re:Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind this same character also blatantly ripped off flickr.com's design/artwork and used it's own forums constantly for drumming up resentment against Flickr, arguing with it's management, and so on, in attempt to (A) drum up his own blog, and (B) the aformentioned craptastic ripoff. Posting this here is also yellow journalism in the highest form.

People who blog as a means of income and self promotion suck. There is no getting around that.

Re:Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

This is far more complicated than most posters suggest. The idea that Dish can simply assert that "we don't infringe any longer," and be off the hook on the injunction is absurd (recall that Dish made pre-trial claims that the old software never infringed).

A jury trial found a preponderance of evidence that Dish software infringed, and this finding was upheld on appeal.

Seems to me the questions are these:

1. Will the stay of the injunction which was effective "pending appeal" be withdrawn?
2. What is the standard of evidence and upon whom is the burden of proof to determine whether the "new" software infringes?

the more the lawyers play, the more the people pay

[Anonymous Coward]

is it just me, or does it seem that the law is more about money than justice?

it sure looks like professionalism these days means cheat your country and screw society

The shit's going to hit the fan

[JonTurner]

Americans are a complacent lot. They'll tolerate taxes and fee increases, regulation, government snooping, abridgement of century-old (and God given) rights, etc. with maybe one in ten thousand even bothering to pick up a telephone or a pen and contact their congressman or senator.

But if you fuck with their television, you'll see angry roving mobs take to the streets that make "21 days later" look like a tea party. I suspect this will not end well.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[OrangeTide]

We already accept DRM. And in the very near future we'll be blocked from recording or timeshifting some programs and we'll just shrug our shoulders and accept it. This is how IPTV will "revolutionize" television.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we don't accept DRM...that's one reason Vista is dying. That and the abysmal performance.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[aplusjimages]

I have to disagree. I think you're thinking of alcohol.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[noidentity]

I know you joke, but it's the truth. Why else do you think the government organized a huge coupon program to help people get the converter boxes? And kept pushing back the changeover date as well...

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[fyngyrz]

You accept DRM. Acting on the presumption that the consumer is a criminal before the fact is ample evidence that the system - not the consumer - is broken.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

Corporate lobbying.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[dgatwood]

What's the point of the beer if you aren't watching the big game? Trust me, you screw with TV and you'll even have the alcohol companies marching in the streets....

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans are a complacent lot. They'll tolerate taxes and fee increases, regulation, government snooping, abridgement of century-old (and God given) rights, etc. with maybe one in ten thousand even bothering to pick up a telephone or a pen and contact their congressman or senator.

Tell that to the English and the Germans.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Cheesey]

If he does, then he's not in the minority. I bet 99% of the people who read this post are XBox, PS3 or Wii owners: I think the DRM on those systems is tolerated so widely because it just works. Even nerds who understand the implications are willing to buy into it.

Some people object to DRM on ideological grounds, but not many. It's like free software versus commercial software. You can decide to use only free software because it fits your personal ideology, but most people use a mixture of free and non-free software. If good free software doesn't exist for a task, then they pay up. Equally, we would all prefer to have no DRM, but we can tolerate it if it means we get to do something that we wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[headkase]

As the "Dead Kennedys" so aptly put it: Give me convenience or give me death!

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[fyngyrz]

Use is not synonymous with acceptance. Toleration or passivity in the face of it is; personally, I'm active in a number of ways, from not allowing DRM of any kind on the commercial executables we produce, to creating PD software that demonstrates the fallacy of the GPL type of approach, to pestering my representatives to stop creating legislation that presumes citizens are criminals absent probable cause, oath or affirmation, and warrant. I donate to causes that support this view, and speak against causes that criminalize legitimate action.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[theaceoffire]

While it is true consoles are heavily drm'd, some suffer more than others.

For example, the 360 downloadable items are locked to the console, account, and I believe the hard drive (Not sure).

So when it RRoD's, you can only play the content you own by having internet.

Meanwhile, the PS3 allows you to download your game to 4 other PS3s.

Does that make up for all the drm? Maybe, maybe not. But some consoles are more open than others. Hell, I can even install another OS to the PS3 if I so choose, and upgrade the hard drive using standard components. The cords it uses are usb2 and any such cords work, it can handle external hard drives and 3rd party mouse, keyboard (Blutooth or usb).

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet 99% of the people who read this post are XBox, PS3 or Wii owners: I think the DRM on those systems[...] I did not realize the fact that I couldn't take my Wii games and play them on my Mac constituted DRM. :P

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[OrangeTide]

I disagree. Blu-Ray and HDMI and HDTV and IPTV are all hot technologies with consumers right now and all have very intrusive DRM.

I think Vista is having trouble in the market because consumers perceive it as incompatible, slow, unstable and annoying (with its attempts to protect users by using a million dialogs). Vista will win out despite consumers because Microsoft has the strength to force a noisy minority to comply. (it's a significantly large minority though!)

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[OrangeTide]

As long as you continue to replace DVD players with Blu-Ray players. And continue to upgrade your equipment to DRM-enabled versions, you are accepting DRM. As long as there demand for DRM there will be supply. And providing demand is acceptance when alternatives exist and are actually cheaper.

Alternative to HDMI - component video, dvi
Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)
Alternative to iTunes - DRM-free MP3 download(amazon, etc), CDs that are not protected(harder to tell)

ps - try as we might, we will not be able to defeat the GPL empire. I do MIT license and PD software. But it just gets bundle with a bunch of GPL stuff anyways. GPL's model always wins even if it's the wrong model.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Jonner]

So, what's the "right model?" I like FLOSS because it's about freedom and choice for both author and user. When I choose to use a FLOSS package, I don't prefer one licensing model over another, but if I were creating one from scratch, I'd choose the license that was most appropriate for the intended use, which might be GPL, LGPL, or a BSD-like one.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[multisync]

Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)

It's DRM none the less, and it is (if I'm not mistaken) a felony to circumvent that DRM in the US. Also, how many VHS tapes are available for rent or sale at your local video store? Watch as studios slowly squeeze out the DVD and force those pesky "consumers" to "upgrade" to Blue-Ray.

Alternative to iTunes - DRM-free MP3 download(amazon, etc), CDs that are not protected(harder to tell)

Sure, if you live in the US. Amazon does not sell MP3 downloads to foreign countries. I've read about other services, but none that I have seen offer either the convenience, price and selection of iTunes. If anyone can recommend an alternative that doesn't require me to pay a monthly fee (I prefer ala carte, thank you) and offers a decent selection outside of the US, I'd love to hear about it.

You are correct about CDs, and I encourage people to continue to buy them for the superior (to iTunes, anyway) audio quality and for the peace of mind that you can rip 'em, put them in a plastic storage bin in the basement and they will likely still be available to be re-ripped if necessary in the future. Until, that is, drives that are able to play CDs become as scarce as drives that can read 5-1/4 floppies.

(btw, I still have my old Akai turntable and every vinyl album I ever bought, but most suffered irreparable damage at the hands of a dumb-ass teenager who didn't appreciate how precious his music collection would be to him in his old age).

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Jonner]

You're painting with some very broad strokes there. I receive completely DRM-free and free of cost HDTV broadcast all the time. AFAIK, the FCC neither requires nor allows any kind of DRM on ATSC broadcast, though it has been threatened and defeated (hopefully indefinitely) in the form of the "broadcast flag."

Also, IPTV does not refer to any particular system or standard, but just the general approach of sending TV over IP. I don't know how many different IPTV systems there are, but there are probably some that don't use DRM.

Just to nitpick: HDMI doesn't require HDCP all the time, which is why you can plug an HDMI display into a DVI output using a simple converter cable and you can plug a DVI display into an HDMI output as long as the signal is not HDCP encrypted.

However, I do agree with your main point that DRM is becoming more pervasive and most people buying into it are completely unaware or apathetic. Because I'm opposed to DRM on grounds of principle and because it limits my DIY options, I get my TV and movies from broadcast ATSC and DVDs (the DRM is inconsequential) instead of digital cable and BluRay. When bypassing BluRay DRM is as easy to bypass as CSS, I'll get some of those. Of course, the former options are a lot less expensive too, and I like saving money. I am very aware that not very many people are going to limit their options like I do.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[harlows_monkeys]

Some people object to DRM on ideological grounds, but not many

And I object to many of those objectors on ideological grounds.

* They say things like DRM is slavery, and if I were to dare to buy, say, a Kindle, I am helping promote slavery. That's an insult to all the people who have been victims of actual slavery.

* I'm an adult. I can look at the terms of, say, Amazon's DRM (to continue using the Kindle for my examples), and weigh the conveniences the device offers, vs. the risk of being screwed if Amazon pulls a Google and cancels the service with no refunds, and the annoyance of not being able to loan books to friends, and so on. The ideological DRM objectors seem to dismiss my adulthood, and want to treat me like a child who has to be protected from making the "wrong" decision and willing buying a DRMed product. They are no better than those who want to "protect" me from seeing porn on the internet, or from finding heretical books in my local library.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Achromatic1978]

I may be wrong, but I believe you can do HDCP over DVI without too much concern, presuming there's accurate and complete support in your firmware. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[westlake]

Alternative to HDMI - component video, dvi

The alternatives are not as good and not as cheap as the geek makes them out to be.

HDMI is one cable for digital audio and video. HDMI 1.3 has a bandwidth of 340 MHz. High-Definition Multimedia Interface

Costs are $1 a foot to lengths of 100 ft.HDMI Cable

Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)

The computer Geek thinks PC quality video.

The guy who puts $5-$25K into HT is thinking theatrical quality projection and sound.

Netflix isn't charging him a premium for the Blu-Ray rental. If he owns a PS3 he owns a Profile 2 Blu-Ray player. The Blu-Ray disk is 50 GB today and 100 GB tomorrow.

100 GB of professionally recorded mp4 video that doesn't have to be downloaded over a snail-slow and fragile P2P link. 100 GB that doesn't take a big bite out of his media server or DVR.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[deblau]

But if you fuck with their television, you'll see angry roving mobs take to the streets that make "21 days later" look like a tea party.

I live in Boston. We can get pretty angry at our tea parties.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[speedlaw]

I made sure that a relative bought an XP machine. She was NOT a linux candidate or willing to pay for osx. one less

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[nuzak]

Most video cards supporting HDMI have DVI connectors, but support HDCP just fine. The only difference as far as the video path is concerned is form factor.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[yukk]

Some people object to DRM on ideological grounds, but not many

And I object to many of those objectors on ideological grounds.

...

* I'm an adult. I can look at the terms of, say, Amazon's DRM ... The ideological DRM objectors seem to dismiss my adulthood, and want to treat me like a child who has to be protected from making the "wrong" decision ...

But part of the problem for them is that for every person like you who chooses to accept DRM/Loss of control etc., the media cartels/whoever get one more person towards viability for their model. If enough people accept DRM, knowingly or unknowingly then the model is a success and the objectors become unimportant to profitability and thus everyone is forced to accept those terms.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

I most certainly do not tolerate DRM on my game consoles. Sure, I bought an Xbox--didn't buy any games, though. Chinatown is my underground railroad.

The more they fuck with me to try to prevent me from stealing, the more I will steal. I don't believe one man has the power to change things, but I certainly don't believe in taking this bullshit laying down, either.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting this AC cause I don't have the time to search the comments. Or to rtfa.

I'm am sitting at the NASCAR race in the bleachers and I just read this on my phone.

I was pissed and livid. Pivid I guess. So I called Dish immediately. They already had a pre formatted speech regarding this. supposedly non-infringing software has already been pushed to the DVR boxes.

Hope so. I was prepared to cancel immediately. Already told the wife before I called them. Oh well. Situation normal, all stand down.

Yee-haw! NASCAR!

-AI

TEH FORMATTING SUX0RZ

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Lord Kano]

..."21 days later"...

28 Days Later

LK

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

[from GP] PD software that demonstrates the fallacy of the GPL type of approach

GPL's model always wins even if it's the wrong model. I know this is offtopic, but please indulge me. How does GPL have the wrong model? If it always wins, in what sense is it wrong? What is the fallacy of as-you-received-so-you-must-give?

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[fyngyrz]

PD is superior in every way, because it gives, it promotes freedom, it does not coerce, it does not fund and encourage shysters and shysterism (though it gives you the freedom to do so if you so choose), it is neutral as to commercialism and charity and philanthropy and service, builds a base of 100% usable prior art, a library of freely available resources to give people a leg up without forcing them into a restrictive model of any kind, while still giving them the option of any model they freely choose to follow. GPL coerces, winds up the lawyers and the court system for yet more involvement and more of a dead weight on society and individuals, limits future mechanisms -- the GPL is inherently viral and poisonous by nature. Which is not to say you shouldn't use it, by all means, if it is in your nature and intent to prevent others from using your work unless they use it just as you say, then the GPL was designed just for you. Me, if I want to give something away, I'm not going to put any strings on it, and that means PD -- PD is the mechanism that gives everything to everyone without taking anything away from anyone and without forcing anyone into - or away from - any particular path.

"Winning" is not always about superiority of product; often it is a matter of marketing and/or social engineering. The GPL is riding a wave of huge desire for name recognition brought on by the MTV generation (hence the terms never take my name/terms off of this") and a backlash against commercial models that has arisen in a generation who have grown up with the new idea that because something is easily copied, they cannot be held liable for any value for that something. The GPL offers unity to a group that attempts to lock out commercial models unless they are service based; hence the intentional infection characterized as "if you use my stuff, you have to release your stuff the same way", and the lesser "you're responsible for continuing to forward my work under the same terms" delivery of obligation.

We have seen many inferior products win. VHS over Beta is the classic example, but there are others at every level. Back when the IBM PC was being architected, one fatal decision choose the inferior path between little endian and big enian architectures that we're still stuck with today because it wasn't the critical part of the decision, just a "carry-along" consequence of other issues. We have a shoddy political system because we can't deal, socially speaking, with the idea that simple democracy is flawed right out of the gate - democracy without qualification is simply a system where any two uninformed people can outvote an expert. But admitting one person is better than another, much less testing for it... that's so much of a problem that the other is swept right under the table. My point being that the superior choice is not by any means guaranteed to be the natural choice. Things just aren't that simple.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[NotQuiteInsane]

Alternative to HDMI - component video, dvi

Actually, DVI can carry HDCP-encrypted video, just as HDMI can carry un-encrypted video. I don't consider HDMI itself to be 'evil' or 'DRMy', just the DRM scheme itself (HDCP)...

DVD (which has laughable DRM)

Not really an alternative to BluRay, the video is SD-only (768x576 for PAL 16:9). And the DRM's only "laughable" because someone broke it :P

Alternative to iTunes - DRM-free MP3 download(amazon, etc), CDs that are not protected(harder to tell)

Get a LiteOn CD/DVD drive. Watch almost all forms of CD "copy protection" disappear into the background. I've yet to find a CP'd audio "CD" that my LH-20A1H (or indeed the LDW-851S before it) couldn't read. But yeah, I use iTunes (+myFairtunes) for the weekly free music, but anything I buy is always on CD. I have too many portable players (Asus Eee, and Sony MZRH1 Minidisc to name two) to make DRM'd music worth bothering with...

To be honest, I haven't seen any protected CDs in a while. Maybe it's because I tend to ignore anything that's in the top 40...

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[OrangeTide]

The guy who puts $5-$25K into HT is thinking theatrical quality projection and sound. And this is what acceptance of DRM means. And I believe we're sliding down a slipper slope.

Everything I mentioned is an alternative, but it is definitely not equivalent. Going to live shows instead of watching TV is also an alternative, so is reading a book.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[OrangeTide]

Not really an alternative to BluRay, the video is SD-only (768x576 for PAL 16:9). And the DRM's only "laughable" because someone broke it :P Even VHS, reading books and going to live theater is an "alternative to BluRay".

Get a LiteOn CD/DVD drive. The point is to discourage friends and family from getting CDs that they can't rip unless they have the magic geek hardware. I've had to loan out my DVD-RW drive to friends before because it seems to rip CDs just fine.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for your response. I'm having trouble digesting it, though. Your first paragraph extols "PD" (the public domain?) over the GPL (and does so unfairly, IMHO). In your second paragraph, you sound more like a copyright holder embittered by piracy on one hand and by the GPL on the other than like a big contributor to the PD. Your web site doesn't mention the PD at all (please post a link if I'm wrong about that). Lastly, what does anything in your third paragraph have to do with why you think the GPL doesn't deserve to win? Please have mercy on my uniprocessor brain.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[fyngyrz]

Your first paragraph extols "PD" (the public domain?) over the GPL (and does so unfairly, IMHO).

In order for that part of your comment to be meaningful, you need to say why you think my characterization was unfair. I have reasons for what I said (and I've laid them out, but I'm prepared to be more specific as required.)

In your second paragraph, you sound more like a copyright holder embittered by piracy on one hand and by the GPL on the other than like a big contributor to the PD.

As far as my feelings about the GPL go, I'm both a PD and a commercial author embittered by the GPL. In both cases, the GPL has done things ranging from what I'd call merely "cramping my style" to forcing me to write huge chunks of code, work that, were it not for the GPL, I could have avoided in favor of something more rationally characterizable as productive. Work that had already been done by others, was available in public to others, but not to me, because I had the temerity to presume that some of my work product was actually an appropriate thing to request payment for, or even simply wish to distribute without incurring additional obligations. It sneaks around and annoys me from surprising directions. For instance, midnight commander won't compile on my Apple; One might ask, why is that? It turns out that in the final analysis, it's specifically because of the GPL. Apple can't ship what they need to so that MC will compile and run. Instead, I have to get a huge pile of crap (the "Fink" project) and cobble up a mostly-working copy from that.

Pirates, frankly, don't make me bitter. Quite the opposite. They've been very good to me. It's just free exposure for the commercial software; it isn't like they were going to buy it anyway. And they can't "steal" PD software, now can they? I can count the number of times a non-purchasing person came looking for support for our commercial software and didn't buy it when told we only support purchasers on one hand in 23 years of selling commercial software. On the other hand, I could not possibly count the number of sales made to people who ran into non-purchasing folks using my stuff.

As for being a "big" contributor to PD, the whole point is you don't know what I've contributed because there's no requirement to keep my name associated, nor is there any particular motivation on my part to put it there in the first place. I don't do it for fame and recognition, I don't concern myself with such things. I do it to help out, that's all. In terms of lines of code, I'm a consistent, long-term contributor. Also of PD hardware designs and things like PD analog AFSK mode designs. You can find my name in the ARRL handbook, numerous programs of various types, and even some of the Orion blue books if you try hard enough. Heck, I even try to always give out the critical details when I take a photo so others can learn and emulate if they so desire, instead of playing "I know something you don't know, nyah-nyah." In terms of do you know me... no, probably not. Do I care? No, probably not. :-)

Your web site doesn't mention the PD at all (please post a link if I'm wrong about that).

Black Belt Systems is a commercial operation of mine; it has nothing in particular to do with producing PD software. I, as an individual on the other hand, do. For the sake of an example, here is a PD database app I wrote in Python (with docs, and sample databases, and database processing examples); I've been writing software since my first Altair computer; my first PD software was published in the 1977 issue of Kilobaud; there have been many more such since then.

However, since you were digging around on the BBS site, did you manage to come across the terms of re-distribution for WinIm

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Anonymous Coward]

So the pirates have been very good to you? Yet you find it necessary to fight them:

Piracy....is known to have affected our own company to a significant degree. Accordingly...Black Belt Systems has implemented active countermeasures technologies designed to combat these losses. Alas, I tire of wading through your rambling, contradictory messages. I think you are indeed playing "I know something you don't know, nyah-nyah." with me. The substantive anti-GPL position that I had hoped to consider is not here, just jealosy of other people's work that you can't take on your own terms. Good night.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[fyngyrz]

And if you'd read the page I linked for you, you'd see what those countermeasures are. :-) But of course that would destroy your lame argument, so you're not going to do that.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[Kamineko]

Sounds like they just wanted the toilet to me.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan

[mattack2]

You seem to not realize that iTunes sells a great proportion of their music in non-DRM form too.

I tried

[OMNIpotusCOM]

I was trying to think of something really witty to say, something that would totally make the parent rethink their post and question their whole thought structure on Americans... but all I could come up with was this Family Guy quote:

"Who touched the thermostat?" ...how sad is that?

Dish DVR

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI this has no effect on anyone with a newer model Dish DVR, i.e. they aren't going to take it away from you. New software was pushed out 6 months ago to replace the infringing software. If you have a real old one, now is a good time to upgrade.

Re:Dish DVR

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO, Dish should have licensed the Tivo technology and been done with it. If the software that Dish's DVR uses is "fully functional" then I guess I'm a dummy tech dork.

It took me a long ass time to figure out how to add a single TV show to record a season and I'm not sure it even did exactly what I wanted. My 60 year old parents have no idea how to use it aside from pausing, rewinding and watching the terrible "howto" video.

Re:Dish DVR

[Burgundy Advocate]

Actually, 'next-generation' software was pushed out for all models. Nothing is going to stop working. The article description is highly incorrect.

Re:Dish DVR

[danielsfca2]

I don't know about you or your parents, but our Dish DVR wasn't hard to use in the slightest. It was far superior to the crap Comcast pushes.

And I'm sure plenty 60-year-olds, no offense intended towards my elders, couldn't figure out how to do more than pause and rewind on TiVo either.

(I've never had a TiVo because I refuse to pay $15/mo for the rest of my life for a few kilobytes of guide data. When I moved to a no-dish apartment, I built a PC-based DVR that kicks ass).

Re:Dish DVR

[Dahamma]

IMHO, Dish should have licensed the Tivo technology and been done with it.

You don't know Echostar. Charlie Ergen would never license what he could get away with stealing...

Re:Dish DVR

[Brad Eleven]

Bethinks the AC speaks of the newer, non-infringing version, and that Dan refers to the older, Tivo-like version.

I agree: it sucks to have to pay a fee ($5/month for DirecTiVo, which is crippled, blah, blah, blah), but the interface is nice, there are multiple hacks which are time-tested, and no one's coming down on the hackers. Okay, they're clobbering the hacks with software upgrades, but there are workarounds for this.

I feel the same way about the TiVo suit that I did about the 1987 Microsoft suit: It's a shame that this had to be done with law. It's the right thing to do, though.

I completely agree that Dish could/should have licensed the technology: It would have saved money, time, and trouble in the long run. I completely believe that the TiVo framework would make a very good industry standard.

I don't completely get the DRM involved, but I know of several ways to circumvent it. I used to use the analog hole, now I just snag the digital streams and convert to whatever format I prefer on that particular day.

I absolutely don't get the broadcasters' mental constipation on this issue: It's *broadcast* quality, digital or not. Even HD broadcasts are not that great because they arrive after having passed through a satellite or over miles of cable or fiber.

I think that broadcasters believe that digital means "perfection" because it costs more and because they're mostly pampered idiots surrounded by yes men. I would expect that most readers of these forums agree that digital technology is a hedge to simplify error detection and correction, and that there is no attainable perfection.

Re:Dish DVR

[NotQuiteInsane]

(I've never had a TiVo because I refuse to pay $15/mo for the rest of my life for a few kilobytes of guide data. When I moved to a no-dish apartment, I built a PC-based DVR that kicks ass). A MythTV box, or something else?

Re:Dish DVR

[NateTech]

I've had both, after recently switching back to Dish. I had two Tivos for years, one a very early model Series 2 and a later one.

The later one had a huge hard disk but was constantly plagued with problems that appeared to be related to the use of a cheap hard disk -- reboots, lockups, etc.

The earlier one was better built, but limited in recording space.

The multi-tuner Dish 722ViP capable of recording from two satellite tuners at once, as well as a built in ATSC tuner (who would have thought that a company that makes a living off of selling TV signals would put an off-air tuner in their box? Wow!), plus feeding two televisions (one HD, one SD) in either "show the same thing and have picture-in-picture" or "show different tuners to different TVs) and all the other features... far outshines the Tivo.

Tivo's decision to do a CableCard-based HDTV device drove me away. That was a huge mistake.

Yes absolutely Dish needs a MUCH better "Season Pass" like feature... their search feature is a little clunky, but I for one am impressed. Especially for half the price per month to drive two TV's.

Re:Dish DVR

[danielsfca2]

BeyondTV on Windows XP, actually. I studied Myth and just didn't think I had what it takes to achieve all my goals on Myth and Linux. BTV was something I tried the demo of when I was a poor college student with a cheap-ass tuner card, and it impressed me back then, so when I had the money to build a real DVR box I paid for it.

My only complaints about the platform:
1. BTV doesn't support closed captioning in any form, be it live TV or recorded.
2. It doesn't play DVDs. Its excellent "Firefly" remote works out of the box with PowerDVD, but PowerDVD doesn't have a "10-foot" interface so it's pretty awkward to do much beyond play and pause. If I could play DVDs just like any other video file, that would be cool.
3. It sorts programs that start with "The" under "T."
4. Poor digital support, from what I've heard so far. Hopefully they get there before I get a new TV (I still have an old-fashioned TV so it doesn't affect me now).

On the plus side, I lucked out and built a platform that is rock-solid on XP, though. If it'd been crashy I'd have wanted to pull out my hair.

Re:Dish DVR

[mattack2]

I pay nothing monthly for my Tivos, because I got them with lifetime subscriptions (tied to the hardware). The lifetime subscription option was gone for a while, but I believe it's still there for all at the moment.

Plus, you get more than guide data, you get the software updates. If the guide data were cheaper (enough to make the lifetime price less intriguing) and the software updates cost money, that would be a reasonable choice IMHO.

Re:Dish DVR

[mattack2]

Does it handle multiple tuners and CableCards, or does it simply control a cable box via IR? (Even with my S3 & TivoHD, I don't have cablecards, but I appreciate the option.)

Its not going away

[WaHooCrazy7]

Dish DVR is not going away, it's their old software that violated the software patents. Their new software does not violate the TiVo software patents. This new software was pushed out by Dish about 3 months ago. Very misleading article.

Re:Its not going away

[waterwingz]

Pet peeve - you infringe somebody's patent - not violate it.

Re:Its not going away

[rajafarian]

Pet peeve - you infringe somebody's patent - not violate it.

Yeah but violating it sounds funnier.

Re:Its not going away

[mr_matticus]

Actually, infringement is one method of violation, so you do both. Infringement is more specific and usually the case with a patent claim, but violation is not incorrect.

Responses

[ArkiMage]

Tivo's:
http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304285

Dish's:
http://dish.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304293

The latter includes these tidbits:

The decision, however, will have no effect on our current or future customers because EchoStar's engineers have developed and deployed 'next-generation' DVR software to our customers' DVRs. This improved software is fully operational, has been automatically downloaded to current customers, and does not infringe the Tivo patent at issue in the Federal Circuit's ruling.

"All DISH Network customers can continue to use their DVRs without any interruption or changes to the award-winning DVR features and services provided by DISH Network.

"We intend to appeal the Federal Circuit's ruling to the United States Supreme Court."

Re:Responses

[BACPro]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

It would seem that it is SOP for a manufacturer to EOL a piece of equipment. Tell the users they need to upgrade. There will be some gnashing of teeth, some users will flee, but if the new product is better... Some people need a shove to move on.

Having said that, I would be pissed off if someone told me I had to abandon a perfectly functional piece of kit and upgrade. I sure a community of terrorists that have hacked their own distro of Linux onto it to maintain functionality could be found. Someone would do it because they could.

Any idea how this affects Bell Express Vue in Canada? I notice about 3 months ago we received new software that did more things that were TIVO like. Record all eps, record all new eps, priorities and so on...

Re:Responses

[1729]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court? It might have something to do with the $92M judgement.

Re:Responses

[Teran9]

They want to appeal because they don't want to shell out the bucks.

Re:Responses

[Anonymous Coward]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court? Why do people keep asking this? You aren't the only one. Even the blurb says, they will have "to pay TiVo a minimum of $92 million." Since when wasn't that much money worth fighting for?

Re:Responses

[LostCluster]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court? Because the courts have valued the use of TiVos patents for the time that Dish was using them without permission at $92 Million. The appeals process is all they've got to avoid, or maybe just delay making that payment. Just because you've stopped doing the illegal act, doesn't mean you get away with what you did in the past.

Re:Responses

[westlake]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

The appeal to the Supreme Court is routine. The denial of cert is also routine. The Supremes take on only the 150 or so cases each year that they think are genuinely worth their time.

Re:Responses

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is why they stealthed that piece of shit upgrade on me. Since they did the f*cking thing has failed to record the shows I want to watch about half the time. No error message, no warning, just no show when I get home.

Re:Responses

[vtcodger]

***Since they did the f*cking thing has failed to record the shows I want to watch about half the time.***

I'm pretty sure that someone -- Verizon? Microsoft? -- has a patent on not doing what is requested about half the time. Another patent infringement? Dish's patent problems may not be over.

Re:Responses

[symbolic]

I wonder if this would affect other content delivery services like Comcast.

Re:Responses

[siwelwerd]

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

Because it's a lot cheaper than paying TiVo $92 million

Re:Responses

[magicchex]

You're thinking of Comcast.

RTFA

[mrsam]

No, Dish can (and if you RTFAed, they will) appeal to the Supremes.

But, true, Dish has a tough hill to climb. The Supremes only accept a small percentage of all appeals. Dish's goose is mostly cooked.

Re:RTFA

[Zeinfeld]

I found the original article somewhat interesting as it stated that the rulling was absolutely final with no chance of appeal. Which as anyone would know is not the case as there is always the option of an appeal to the Supreme court.

In ordinary cases this would not be very likely to succeed, but the SCOTUS has already accepted an appeal on a similar patent issue. And it is very likely that this will be decided in a maner that would affect this case.

But any journalist who was familiar with patent law issues would know about this which means that this 'article' amounts to nothing more than stenographic press release journalism. They received a press release from Tivo and printed it without checking anything. So all we are seeing here is the Tivo side of the story and they are not exactly a very credible source.

Tivo's financial situation is not exactly impressive. They cannot afford to refuse to license the technology.

Re:RTFA

[Achromatic1978]

The 'article' was written by the submitter for his blog, and contained glaring errors of fact, so I'd take it with quite the grain of salt.

This will just make tivo look bad

[fahrvergnugen]

Shutting down the DVRs for Dish Network would be the stupidest thing that Tivo could do. Dish PR just says "It's Tivo's fault," puts something out on a wire service, someone picks up the story that Tivo made Dish network but not DirecTV or Comcast shut down their DVR's, and bingo, Tivo are the bad guys even though they're the ones protecting their stolen IP from another company. Licensing is just as much in Tivo's favor as it is Dish's at this point. Letting the Dish shutdown happen would be a fiasco.

Also, does this have ramifications for other disk-based DVR's such as those offered by cable companies and DirecTV?

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[OrangeTide]

Knowing Tivo they begged and pleaded for months to get Dish to pay for a license. Either Tivo asked for too much or Dish was uncooperative.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[omeomi]

I thought DirecTV already used TiVo brand DVRs?

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[sleigher]

I don't really get any of this. Wasn't Dish offering DVR functionality before Tivo was even a company? And aside from that if it is a software patent, how did Tivo get to see the code to know that it is infringing? Wouldn't they have the same complaint to DTV, Comcast? Didn't replayTV also have DVRs before Tivo? Why does Tivo get to sue over the DVR?

Doesn't this start to sound like Chevy suing Ford for having wheels in their design?

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[chris234]

DirecTV used to, but that's irrelevant as this is about Dish Network.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[Greyfox]

I'm rather biased against Echostar, having worked there briefly. Dealing with their HR department several years later to obtain some records was just as unpleasant as actually working for them was. I usually get knowing nods and comments from recruiters whenever I discuss it, so I know it is not just me who has had these sorts of problems with them.

If their legal department is anything like their HR department, talking to them was pretty much useless. I'd be surprised if Tivo had any recourse other than to sue them. Although I hate software patents and think that many DVR-related ones are completely retarded (TV Guide has one for the guide grid format, for example) I can't suppress a certain amount of glee that this misfortune has fallen upon Echostar. So I'm just going to point at them and go "Ha-ha!"

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[BLKMGK]

Umm, Direct has some licensing going on and ComCast has also licensed TIVO software from TIVO and is starting to load it on some of their own DVR STB hardware with future plans to roll it out. As for making TIVO look bad, TIVO built some innovative software and patented it. DISH *knew* this, even looked at their software to use it themselves maybe, but afterwards decided to build their own. Like them or not the software patent was there and DISH infringed, worse they built SHITTY software for which I left their service and got a DTIVO from Direct until they fucked up. Now I use a TIVO HD on FIOS, love it. ComCast and Direct are in the clear, TIVO has their asses and they have been trying to bleed TIVO dry in hopes of not paying - their time is running out.

It's easy with 20:20 hindsight to say that all of this stuff is obvious and shouldn't have been patented. Usually the person who says this didn't manage to think of it themselves first though. I agree that software patents are an issue but if TIVO didn't have them then one of the first guys to build and innovate in this market would've been long gone by now replaced by lots of mediocre clone boxes from the various "providers". I obviously love TIVO despite some of their more questionable moves and my dislike for software patents.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[BLKMGK]

They used to, they are now moving to an MP4 format for some of their HD with plans to move all of their HD to it eventually. The DTIVO boxes will be unable to decode this and their HD boxes will also be obsolete. I was going to move to HD but refused for over a year after getting an HD TV because I didn't want to be trapped in this morass (I had DTIVOs). I ended up waiting long enough that FIOS came along and saved me - I now have a TIVO HD and CableCards - very happy!

I have now had two friends BEG me to fix their DTIVO boxes when drives have gone bad. See when you contact Direct they send you their own PVR as a replacement - it sucks! So after a week or three of dealing with it MY phone rings with a buddy begging to have me try to repair it. So far it's all been HDD issues and I've been successful, I also have a closet of old receivers if worse comes to worse.

So yeah, Direct was smart and signed licensing but fucking stupid to not continue to license and use the full software. I was with them for over 5 years and with DISH for as long before that until I discovered what a joy PVRs were (had\have a replay). I'd have stuck with them too since I happen to hate Verizon but they left TIVO and I left them - and said as much when retention tried to keep us. Oh well!

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[PuckSR]

Yeah, but knowing Dish Network...they probably weren't interested in paying someone for technology that they developed.

The entire patent is bogus. Tivo combined time-shifting with a digital storage device and an on-screen guide. Hmmm. Time-shifting is not patented by tivo. Digital storage of video is not patented by tivo. Dish Network and DirecTV actually hold prior art on the on-screen guide. This seemed like a fairly obvious usage of common technologies.

Remember. Dish Network is the same company that turned all Viacom channels off for a few weeks because they didn't want to give in to pushy business practices by Viacom. I am not saying this is good or bad, but I am saying that Charlie Ergen(Dish CEO) has big testicles.

So, I doubt it was that Tivo asked for too much money. I think the fact that TIVO asked for money at all would have put them off.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo already looks bad. First off, DVRs are a pretty deadly obvious invention. Anyone who saw a computer play video and a VCR record off the TV could have come up with the idea. Tivo came out at the time when hard drives became cheap enough to make recording TV feasible. That's it.

But in any case, Tivos are buggy, ad-laden pieces of crap. Fast forwarding through a show? Ads will pop up. Finish watching a show? Ad on the screen. Bringing up the Tivo menu? Up to three ads on that one! Looking through the list of recorded shows? Ads.

If Tivo service were free I wouldn't care about the ads, but it's not. You're expected to pay for it.

Then there's the bugs. I've had to routinely reboot my Tivo to get minor things like audio and video playback to start working again. (Thankfully recording was still working in the background.)

Tivo routinely tells you that a group with several items in it is either "no longer necessary" or "empty" and forces you back to the menu to re-select it and watch the shows. (The "no longer necessary" misfeature is supposed to kick in if the only remaining shows are "suggestions" but it also kicks in randomly.)

The menus can take ages to update. Delete a show and it occasionally remains on the list until you reload the list. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The "record new showings" feature is amazingly broken. I've given up and now have a total of four "manual recording" slots to get Tivo to record only first-run Daily Shows and not the massive number of repeats that Comedy Central shows.

The thing that really pisses me off is that from what I hear, Tivo is actually better than the DVRs offered by most cable companies. Given that Tivo is a buggy piece of ad-laden crap, I'd hate to see what other DVRs are like.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[Roger W Moore]

Also, does this have ramifications for other disk-based DVR's such as those offered by cable companies and DirecTV?

Can you even buy disc based DVRs in the US anymore? I was visiting the in-laws at christmas and thought I'd pick up a cheap DVR in the US (given the the US$ is so weak compared to the Canadian at the moment) and could not find one anywhere. Best Buy, Wal-Mart, some local Albuquerque shop - nothing and the same on their websites.

A few years ago in Chicago they were all over the shops and they are still easily available in Canada and Europe. I wondered at the time whether there was some bizarre US patent problem...and I'm guessing that there is. If you need evidence that your patent system is hurting you here it is: the rest of the developed world is enjoying technology you cannot buy (unless you pay an inflated price plus a monthly subscription to Tivo).

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[AimHere2000]

Can you even buy disc based DVRs in the US anymore? I was visiting the in-laws at christmas and thought I'd pick up a cheap DVR in the US (given the the US$ is so weak compared to the Canadian at the moment) and could not find one anywhere. Best Buy, Wal-Mart, some local Albuquerque shop - nothing and the same on their websites.

I just saw one at Walmart the other day. Think it was a Philips. I believe it had a 160-GB hard disk, as well as a SDTV digital tuner.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[symbolic]

I am not saying this is good or bad, but I am saying that Charlie Ergen(Dish CEO) has big testicles.

An appearance vs reality problem - I think you meant to say that he thinks he has big testicles. I see this as the root of most of the stupid things that men do.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[omeomi]

DirecTV used to, but that's irrelevant as this is about Dish Network.

I was responding to somebody who asked why TiVo was singling out Dish Network, but not going after DirecTV or Comcast. If DirecTV uses TiVo branded DVRs, that seems like a pretty reasonable explanation for why they weren't suing DirecTV in addition to Dish Network. Perhaps if you had bothered to read the comment I was replying to, you'd have understood the relevance.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[goldfndr]

But in any case, Tivos are buggy, ad-laden pieces of crap. Fast forwarding through a show? Ads will pop up. Finish watching a show? Ad on the screen. Bringing up the Tivo menu? Up to three ads on that one! Looking through the list of recorded shows? Ads.

There are no additional ads that pop up when fast forwarding through a show this year, although some time ago there was a month or two in which a small selected subset of TiVo subscribers did see an ad during fast forward. While I'll concede on a possibility of up to three ads on the Tivo menu, any list of recorded shows has one or zero ad, and it's at the end of the list.

Then there's the bugs. I've had to routinely reboot my Tivo to get minor things like audio and video playback to start working again. (Thankfully recording was still working in the background.)

Are you claiming that recording operated through a reboot? I hope not. It sounds like an issue with your output device, not with TiVo.

With regard to the menus being slow to update (including occasional appearances of "no longer necessary" or "empty", which I'll concede, supposedly this will be improved in 9.3 (currently in release candidate testing).

The "record new showings" feature is amazingly broken. I've given up and now have a total of four "manual recording" slots to get Tivo to record only first-run Daily Shows and not the massive number of repeats that Comedy Central shows.

You should blame Comedy Central for LYING to TiVo (actually Zap2it/Tribune) about which shows are first-run.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[tlhIngan]

I don't really get any of this. Wasn't Dish offering DVR functionality before Tivo was even a company? And aside from that if it is a software patent, how did Tivo get to see the code to know that it is infringing? Wouldn't they have the same complaint to DTV, Comcast? Didn't replayTV also have DVRs before Tivo? Why does Tivo get to sue over the DVR?

Actually, no - TiVo and ReplayTV were the first to have DVR boxes on sale (I think they came out around the same time) around 1998.

What TiVO did was realize that people wanted it with their satellite boxes, and offered the technology to both Dish and DirecTV. Dish poo-poohed the idea, while DirecTV lauded it (and licensed it). One of the problems was, TiVo left behind one of their boxes for Dish to "play" with. Rumor has it that the box was reverse-engineered and Dish released their own box to compete against DirecTiVos.

Now, DVRs have come and gone, so if TiVo's patent was obvious, there would be an overwhelming supply of them. Instead we have 'em in cable boxes (Motorola, PACE, Scientific Atlanta), and Dish/DirecTV have their own (DirecTV has licensed TiVo), and only TiVo is making them still on the market. UltimateTV isn't supported anymore, and ReplayTV has gone to become a software-only company. Myth isn't even in the same league, unless it runs on boxes with low CPU (sub-200MHz), with hardware encoders and decoders (practically all PC capture cards and video cards do these days, but they won't run on slow CPUs). And more rumors have it that the current executive and board of DirecTV love their TiVos, and may actually decide to bring them back.

Of course, the big deal is the TiVo box that TiVo left behind at EchoStar (Dish). It effectively was the trojan horse. With that one move (probably done out of generousity, rather than malice), EchoStar cannot claim to have not peeked at patented technologies, nor be unaware that such patents may exist.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad

[mattack2]

Yes, there are "VCR-like" hard drive recorders available.

TiVO is fighting a dying battle...

[MindPrison]

The idea of recording live-tv, shifting it so you can watch it anytime wasn't solely invented by TiVO, many Amiga users and Apple users have been using this technology LONG before people got "TiVO.

Today - In Europe (where we don't have TiVO, at least in Denmark) we use TimeShift recorders from JVC, Panasonic, United...heck...I even have a SONY myself - best thing next to buttered bread, can't do without it - to imagine that some "American court" could come in and force the companies worldwide to deactivate their TimeShift function just because TiVO says so...is ludicrous and it will NEVER EVER happen. I Skip ADS all the time with the timeshift function, TiVO can go sc*** themselves.

Re:TiVO is fighting a dying battle...

[RalphSleigh]

Like he said, decoupling the DVR from your television provider would be a great thing. Here in the UK you are free to choose a freeview DVR, or just a converter box, but sky and cable come with their own.

Re:TiVO is fighting a dying battle...

[mattack2]

Tivos *are* decoupled from one's television provider.. The HD Tivos (series 3 & Tivo HD) record two channels simultaneously OTA and from cable or other cable-like systems (FIOS), with CableCards for premium channel access. The older Tivos will control cable boxes or satellite boxes. (There is also the colloquially termed "DirecTivo" which is tied to DirecTV, and continues to work, but doesn't work with the MPEG4 channels which will become more common over time.)

walking distance record to be broken by US?

[Anonymous Coward]

take a walk, ride a bike, save some lives. let yOUR conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_sc/ye_climate_records;_ylt=A0WTcVgednZHP2gB9wms0NUE
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080108/ts_alt_afp/ushealthfrancemortality;_ylt=A9G_RngbRIVHsYAAfCas0NUE
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A

is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying

dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html

the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real yet? please consider carefully ALL of yOUR other 'options'. the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available. 'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet, & by your behaviors. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable. some of US should consider ourselves somewhat fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc.... as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis. concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervene

Re:walking distance record to be broken by US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dr. Bronner, is that you?!

new software was pushed out 6 months ..

[rs232]

"New software was pushed out 6 months ago to replace the infringing software"

Like where does it say that, do you have any citations. If as you say new software was pushed out then why did they lose the ruling and why are they appealing.

"Dish is now saying that they actually will appeal this verdict all the way to the Supreme Court"

Re:new software was pushed out 6 months ..

[Teran9]

You can look up the press releases from Dish that say that they have updated their software. They are appealing because they don't want to have to shell out the bucks for past transgressions.

Die, TiVo

[Just Some Guy]

TiVo did nothing non-obvious. Their main "innovation" was being the first to widely market an idea that had just recently become feasible, but didn't offer anything I hadn't already seen people doing with TV tuner cards. Screw them for trying to own an entire industry through coercion.

I will never voluntarily give them a penny. They got greedy and burned their bridges. In 5 years when TiVo is out of business, they're going to look around pitifully trying to figure out how this could have happened, unable to realize they brought it upon themselves.

Re:Die, TiVo

[DragonTHC]

if you actually owned a tivo, you wouldn't be saying any of that. Tivo really provides a better dvr experience than any other. That and dish network decided they didn't want to deal with tivo in the beginning. So they just made their own bed.

kudos to tivo for protecting their business.

Re:Die, TiVo

[BLKMGK]

Nothing non-obvious? So then you thought of it first? Wow! Oh wait - you didn't?! Then sit down and shut up.

I've seen\used the other DVRs that are apparently also using the same "obvious" ideas and they SUCK while using a TIVO is actually pretty good. Gee, why is that? Could it be because TIVO has had incentive to innovate and not just give us a VCR with the tape swapped for a HDD? Perhaps because they are divorced from the service providers tit and have to work to get customers?

I like my service providing companies hungry thanks. Wake me when a providers "PVR" is worth a shit.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Oh really. What does TiVo do that so deeply affects all these TiVo fanboys?

Every time we have a story on this TiVo topic, you guys come out of the workbook saying they're the lone exception to the standard (and correct) /. policy of "software patents are retarded."

WTF is TiVo putting in your Kool-Aid? I'd like specific examples of why TiVo is so inherently superior in ways that are non-obvious enough that I would agree a patent is warranted.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Waffle Iron]

I've seen\used the other DVRs that are apparently also using the same "obvious" ideas and they SUCK while using a TIVO is actually pretty good.

How does that relate to the "Time Warp" patent (#6,233,389)? This patent is actually rather narrow and describes low-level implementation details that are totally invisible to the user. The claims are, IMO, obvious to an average developer, but they are worded in such a way that it's not hard to come up with a slightly less obvious implementation that doesn't infringe. The fact that EchoStar put out a software update that works around the patent supports this.

You're talking about the quality of the GUI and menus, which have nothing to do with this litigation.

Re:Die, TiVo

[stevenliv]

The main reason is because Tivo is a standalone DVR. It is pretty much the only standalone DVR in the USA right now. Cable and Satellite providers want you to rent their DVRs, and they can charge whatever they want. Consumers should have a choice, which the providers do not want.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mrsbrisby]

... but didn't offer anything I hadn't already seen people doing with TV tuner cards.

Really? I didn't see anyone using their TV cards to pause and rewind live TV. Can you point to some software that existed prior to 1997 that did this?

Otherwise would you shut the fuck up please?

Re:Die, TiVo

[Just Some Guy]

Nothing non-obvious? So then you thought of it first? Wow! Oh wait - you didn't?! Then sit down and shut up.

Yeah, I did. Well, not me personally but the guys I went to college with in the mid 90s. They had cable fed into TV tuners and streaming to drives, controlled automatically by TV listens off the Internet. This was an obvious convergence of 1) TV tuner cards, 2) fast-enough processing at affordable prices, and 3) cheap-enough storage. TiVo came along and boxed it all up, then patented what other people had already been doing.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Just Some Guy]

I didn't see anyone using their TV cards to pause and rewind live TV. Can you point to some software that existed prior to 1997 that did this?

$ cat /dev/video > /var/spool/movie.mpeg&; xanim /var/spool/movie.mpeg

Excuse me while I run out and file for a patent.

Re:Die, TiVo

[TooMuchToDo]

Perhaps it's that Tivo "just works"? If I wasn't gainfully employeed and had tens of hours a week to burn, I'd get a MythTV box. If I wanted to be frustrated all the time when watching TV, I'd get a Comcast DVR system. Tivo's benefit isn't software, or the guide data, it's usability. Those of us with disposable income don't mind paying $15/month to have all of our shows waiting for us and not having a problem when we try to watch them.

Re:Die, TiVo

[vrmlguy]

Well, not me personally but the guys I went to college with in the mid 90s. They had cable fed into TV tuners and streaming to drives, controlled automatically by TV listens off the Internet. This was an obvious convergence of 1) TV tuner cards, 2) fast-enough processing at affordable prices, and 3) cheap-enough storage. TiVo came along and boxed it all up, then patented what other people had already been doing. Except that you haven't described TiVo's patent. They cover using a circular buffer so you can watch while you're streaming, without saving to a file.

Even thought I own a DishNetwork receiver, I think that TiVo was right to get their patent and Dish Network shouldn't have fought as hard as they did. TiVo isn't a bunch of patent trolls; they built and marketed hardware which other people copied.

Re:Die, TiVo

[sponga]

Ummmm wouldn't it be more like 'In 5 years when TiVo is out of business, the owners will all be sipping margaritas in Costa Rica living off all the money they made and say how we could bring this upon ourselves again.'

Just take a different look at the world.

Re:Die, TiVo

[netringer]

TiVo has patents on the "jump to tick" on the timeline and the 8 second jump back among other things.

No. Those features DID NOT exist until Tivo came out with them, and you won't see them on any other other PVR - due to the patent.

TiVo's UI and remote and functionality is the absolute best thought out.

I'm going to have to give it up soon, thanks to DirecTV and TiVo divorcing, and TiVo deciding to diss legacy (Lifetime) customers with the removal of discount rates for additional units.

I really hate that situation.

I'll be signing with AT&T UVerse as soon as they get my house address listed as green in the database. I wish they used CableCARDs so I could keep my HD TiVo. *sigh*

Re:Die, TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a statement by somebody who has never even glanced at TiVo's patents. Good work trying to spread an entirely ignorant position.

Re:Die, TiVo

[AaronW]

A ton of the patents are also held by ReplayTV, which came out just before Tivo. Replay was recently purchased by Direct TV, which is an interesting move since Replay and Tivo cross licensed their patents since neither one could produce a box without infringing on the other's patents.

I also like the interface on my Replay boxes, unfortunately the company stopped making their set-top boxes and never addressed HD, but the features were great (and even their early models had the 8 second skip back and 30 second skip forward).

I have a friend with the Dish PVR and the software on it was quite nice.

When I get around to upgrading everything to HD I'm not sure what I'll do about a DVR. Sadly none of them will match some of my favorite features of my current one (i.e. automatic commercial skipping). Plus, I want one where I can download the content onto my PC like I can with my current one.

I'd set up Myth TV in an instant, but as far as I know it will not record any of the encrypted shows (i.e. sci-fi channel) on cable.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Achromatic1978]

Funny, my 722 DVR from Dish just works, "New Episodes", hit record when I find the program in the guide, ability to search the guide by genre, keywords, actors, etc... And it only costs $6 a month. I can see how I'm being shafted, true enough.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Achromatic1978]

OMG! The "8 second jump back"! What an amazing, novel concept! Hold us back, lest we froth at the mouth at this momentous innovation!

Ye gods. I'm beginning to think TiVo broadcasts subliminal messages.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mrsbrisby]

$ cat /dev/video > /var/spool/movie.mpeg&; xanim /var/spool/movie.mpeg

Excuse me while I run out and file for a patent.

bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'

Or did you meant not to be taken literally?

Patents can't protect a goal; the fact that you can meet a goal in another way doesn't infringe on the patent. What constitutes infringement is if they do it the same way, and since TiVO actually worked, while your idea only worked in theory, I'd say that they are different methods. It also is probably relevant that TiVO's method uses a circular buffer such that /var/spool/movie.mpeg doesn't grow without bound.

Of course, if I'm wrong, go offer your plan to Echostar. I'm sure that if you could prove to a judge that TiVO's idea existed and was trivial (perhaps with more time than you give to this reply) you'd probably be very valuable to them.

The other side you should be aware of is that I'm probably not wrong. You didn't have this idea until after 1997, and while you might be able to reinvent many (or even all) of the things TiVO did then, that only demonstrates that the implementation is trivial, not that the idea is.

Seriously, the implementation of a light bulb is trivial, but a Judge would laugh at you if you suggested the idea.

Re:Die, TiVo

[SanityInAnarchy]

bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'

Oh, come on. Drop the semicolon.

Not entirely complete, of course -- I'm not sure /dev/video exists, I don't know what xanim is, and there's the matter of whether it's actually mpeg. But the concept is, in fact, blindingly obvious.

Patents can't protect a goal; the fact that you can meet a goal in another way doesn't infringe on the patent.

Define "goal".

For example: I consider playing mp3 files to be a goal. However, the mp3 format is patented, and any implementation must pay ridiculous licensing fees.

So yes, I am kind of worried that TiVo's patents might cover, for example, MythTV.

Seriously, the implementation of a light bulb is trivial, but a Judge would laugh at you if you suggested the idea.

Which shows you how little judges -- or maybe just you -- know about the history of the light bulb. It absolutely was a simple idea. We already had candles, why not use electricity to provide light?

It was, in fact, the implementation that was a bitch -- finding just the right material for the filament which would conduct, but not short out, wouldn't burn up immediately, and would provide a steady amount of light.

Re:Die, TiVo

[BLKMGK]

Thank you for saving me the trouble of explaining this! I'd point out that had TIVO simply patented what already existed and was being used by kids in a college dorm that they would never have been able to get their patent in the first place. In theory anyway. TIVO wasn't selling anything until 1997 so clearly prior art, had their patent been so simplistic, would've been easy enough to dig up for this court case - and yet wasn't.

You also do not see TIVO going after any of the software companies that make this sort of software nor have they bitched about MythTV to my knowledge - funny that. TIVO is probably one of the very few cases that make me think that perhaps software patents have some use. I'm still not convinced but for now they exist and DISH were asses about it, time to pay up. Do some digging and you'll see that DISH was no angel in this.

Re:Die, TiVo

[BLKMGK]

I wasn't responding to the specific patent claim any more than the previous poster was. He claimed TIVO did nothing non-obvious and I'd say that the "obvious" ideas the likes of DISH and Direct are using in their own hardware blow, as do the various cable boxes out there. TIVO did it better and DISH built an inferior version\COPY that they claimed was just as good. Literally I might add - DISH reps stated that to me when I switched and so did Direct when I dropped their ass.

What exactly makes you think that the Echostar update claim clears them? These are the same people that claimed there was no infringement in the first place - and lost repeatedly. What would you expect them to tell their users exactly?

Re:Die, TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Fair enough, I'll grant it's more usable than any other system.

So it deserves a patent blocking all other similar tech?

Re:Die, TiVo

[Waffle Iron]

What exactly makes you think that the Echostar update claim clears them?

The claims in the patent cover only specific arrangements of data streams. By routing data in a way that's not quite as obvious as the way the patent is worded, it would be relatively straightforward to create a non-infringing implementation.

Re:Die, TiVo

[BLKMGK]

Again I will point out that they didn't think they were infringing before but were found to be. Time will tell but if it were this easy one wonders why the new code was only deployed just six months ago - this suit has been far longer running.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mrsbrisby]

Not entirely complete, of course -- I'm not sure /dev/video exists, I don't know what xanim is, and there's the matter of whether it's actually mpeg. But the concept is, in fact, blindingly obvious.

Sorry, I think you're full of shit. Or you have a different incompatible definition of "obvious" that is different from the one the rest of us use. Obvious means Easily seen through because of a lack of subtlety and I'm afraid that to fail the overtness test, the thing that is claimed needs to lack these very subtleties.

Face it: TiVO invented something, they documented it, they patented it. Patents are a government-granted monopoly in exchange for inventions. Echostar looked at TiVO and copied it. Period.

For example: I consider playing mp3 files to be a goal. However, the mp3 format is patented, and any implementation must pay ridiculous licensing fees.

MP3 is patented by side-effect; The MP3 patent covers a particular wavelet function that mp3 decoders need to use. It's entirely possible there's another function that produces the same result, but it's not the act of playing wavelet-compressed sounds that's patented here.

So yes, I am kind of worried that TiVo's patents might cover, for example, MythTV.

I think the reason why has nothing to do with TiVO being litigous. Perhaps you simply hate patents, and hate TiVO because they patented something?

If you accept value of some patents, phrase the question thusly: Would MythTV have come up with the idea of pausing and rewinding live TV using the method described by TiVO *without* TiVO? The MythTV developers seem to think not, do you?

finding just the right material for the filament which would conduct, but not short out, wouldn't burn up immediately, and would provide a steady amount of light.

Ah no. There's a very old light bulb which demonstrates that there's a significant amount of wiggle room in both the manufacturing and the materials.

Which shows you how little judges -- or maybe just you -- know about the history of the light bulb. It absolutely was a simple idea. We already had candles, why not use electricity to provide light?

Ohh, you don't know what patents are.

You can't patent a mere idea. You patent an *invention*. It has to be something that can be built (although not necessarily work). You can't patent "making light from electricity" and perhaps this demonstrates why you're so hostile to patents (or maybe just TiVO). Nobody's patented "playing mp3 files" either.

Are you genuinely oblivious to these facts? Or are you just a asshole?

Re:Die, TiVo

[Xarin]

Moxi has a jump back feature. They may have licensed it from Tivo though.

Re:Die, TiVo

[ciscoguy01]

A ton of the patents are also held by ReplayTV, which came out just before Tivo. Replay was recently purchased by Direct TV, which is an interesting move since Replay and Tivo cross licensed their patents since neither one could produce a box without infringing on the other's patents.
I also like the interface on my Replay boxes, unfortunately the company stopped making their set-top boxes and never addressed HD, but the features were great (and even their early models had the 8 second skip back and 30 second skip forward).

Directv likely bought the ReplayTV IP to get the patents as a shield against such litigation from Tivo. Smart. Very smart.
I also have ReplayTV. I have to say I don't much care for the UI, but it's a lot better than the thing in the new Directv HD DVR I have, an HR20.
I used to have the first DVR that Directv had, the UltimateTV from Microsoft. Now, that I did like, I think it had the best and most intuitive and fast UI of them all, and had dual tuners from the start. Sadly that is a dead product. Mine eventually failed. I have heard from Directv reps that the people who still have those won't give them up without a fight. No HD, though. Sad.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Waffle Iron]

OK, maybe you're right. I can't read and understand the patent claims. Echostar's patent lawyers can't read and understand the patent claims even after years of study. You can't understand them; in fact, nobody can understand them. (But maybe a jury of 12 random laymen off the street gets to decide what they mean.)

All that goes to show is just how arbitrary and stupid these obvious and vaguely worded software patents are.

Re:Die, TiVo

[SanityInAnarchy]

Obvious means 'Easily seen through because of a lack of subtlety'

We are talking about the ability to manipulate a buffer. Or to work with something half-downloaded. I have personally re-invented this concept, pretty much independently of Tivo -- in this case, it was figuring out that you can play back a file that is partially downloaded, before the download finishes. Looks like YouTube and everyone else are doing the same thing there.

MP3 is patented by side-effect; The MP3 patent covers a particular wavelet function that mp3 decoders need to use. It's entirely possible there's another function that produces the same result, but it's not the act of playing wavelet-compressed sounds that's patented here.

It is, however, the act of playing back any file which conforms to that mp3 standard. Yes, it is by side effect, but the result is the same -- despite the implementation being completely different, and the context being completely different, royalties must be paid.

Perhaps you simply hate patents, and hate TiVO because they patented something?

I don't have TiVo. And I am interested to see how this plays out.

I do hate patents. I feel that they retard progress more than promote it, and thus defeat their own original purpose. And I feel that 15 years is an insanely long time in today's world -- the patented item would either be irrelevant or already dominant within maybe two years.

But I don't actually know enough about the patents in question. However, if the concept is simply "pausing live TV", then it absolutely was an obvious idea, in that anyone forced to use Linux video tools from that time period would likely have come up with the same thing.

Would MythTV have come up with the idea of pausing and rewinding live TV using the method described by TiVO *without* TiVO?

The MythTV project, as is, might not exist. But someone would have.

The MythTV developers seem to think not, do you?

From that page:

It's credited with being a major influence on MythTV...

Nowhere does it say that MythTV could never have come up with the idea without TiVo.

Ah no. There's a very old light bulb which demonstrates that there's a significant amount of wiggle room in both the manufacturing and the materials.

And nothing on that page says anything about the manufacturing or the materials.

Do you just like to post impressive-looking links, hoping that people won't actually read them? Or is there a substance I am missing? That's not entirely a rhetorical question, by the way.

You can't patent a mere idea. You patent an *invention*. It has to be something that can be built (although not necessarily work).

Yes, in theory. But that's not what's happening.

Allow me to direct you to this patent on what is effectively "dd if=/dev/hda of=/media/my-flash-device/mbr.img bs=512 count=1"

Or maybe you'd like to know about this patent...

I could go on. And on. The fact is, the patent system is so thoroughly broken right now that my first reaction to just about any patent is to question whether or not it should actually be a patent. I mean, somebody's got to question it, and the US Patent Office certainly isn't...

Nobody's patented "playing mp3 files" either.

They have, however, patented an "invention" which is required to play MP3 files. Which is the whole point, really -- I can't legally play MP3 files without permission to use that wavelet function, which is, after all, even more general than MP3. It's also, by the way, one reason people are wary of MSOOXML.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mrsbrisby]

We are talking about the ability to manipulate a buffer. Or to work with something half-downloaded. I have personally re-invented this concept,

Not exactly. TiVO's patent covers the fact that the buffer is temporary, how it's rotated out, and you should look them up if you want.

But I don't actually know enough about the patents in question. However, if the concept is simply "pausing live TV", then it absolutely was an obvious idea, in that anyone forced to use Linux video tools from that time period would likely have come up with the same thing.

Agreed.

That's why I'm pointing out, it isn't simply "pausing live TV". It isn't ever simply anything.

People get very worked up over the abstract of a patent. Read the claims.

Allow me to direct you to #6862681 on what is effectively "dd if=/dev/hda of=/media/my-flash-device/mbr.img bs=512 count=1"

No, it isn't, and that's my point. That patent could only be infringed by your dd if it also:

• Updated a flag in bios indicating that this occurred
• Was invoked by a special "recovery utility" by the user of the computer
• The Bios could boot from the mbr.img file while on your flash device
• A failure to boot message were based on the flag in bios

Amongst other things. Of course, you have to read the claims to see this.

I can't read the other one from here, but I'm sure it's a little more involved than the abstract. If I'm wrong in this particular case, it's probably an oversight and can/would be tested easily.

I could go on. And on. The fact is, the patent system is so thoroughly broken right now that my first reaction to just about any patent is to question whether or not it should actually be a patent

Well, I agree it's broken. Knee-jerk reactions don't however, help. Patents themselves aren't bad, and neither are companies who patent.

I think patenting mathematics is especially bad- which is why I oppose the MP3 patents. I don't however think that all patents are bad, nor do I think that just because a company has patents (and even litigates with them) that they are bad as well.

Re:Die, TiVo

[netringer]

OMG! The "8 second jump back"! What an amazing, novel concept! Hold us back, lest we froth at the mouth at this momentous innovation!

Spoken like a person who never had it.

The innovation is not only that it can jump back 8 seconds, but that there is a single button right your finger to do it. What's obvious is rewind. A one-button "Wait! What was that just now?" rewind is and was novel.

The jump back is so essential, I've caught myself reaching for it on the car radio.

I held off buying an iPod until the Apple genius showed how I could backup podcasts sorta the same way (it needs to be ONE button).

I want jump back in life. I tried to replay things I see out the window!

What slashdotters should keep in mind was that the founding TiVo developers were Linux hackers - one of us. I suspect those pioneers have been gone from TiVo for years - lost during the early hard times, but we should appreciate that they built what we wanted. That legacy is reflected that TiVo never really came down hard on TiVo hacking. They even knew the hackability was a sales feature. I was surveyed as such years ago.

Again, what's sad is TiVo's inability to come up with a business model with the film industry and TV services fighting them at every step. It never helped that you couldn't explain the product in a sentence.

Re:Die, TiVo

[SanityInAnarchy]

No, it isn't, and that's my point. That patent could only be infringed by your dd if it also:

Updating a flag, it won't do. Special "recovery utility" absolutely is done, frequently. Boot from the flash device is not done.

My point still holds, I think. Taking a laundry list of obvious things should not make it a patent. If one of them is non-obvious -- being able to boot from the backup, without restoring it, wasn't immediately obvious to me, but still doesn't seem very innovative -- then make that the patent. However, taking a bunch of already-known or immediately obvious techniques, and adding one trivial change, shouldn't be enough to declare a completely new patent.

Well, I agree it's broken. Knee-jerk reactions don't however, help. Patents themselves aren't bad, and neither are companies who patent.

I don't agree that patents themselves aren't bad. And I didn't say anything bad about TiVo, only about their patent.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Okay, but standalone comes with its own set of annoyances. IR Blasters are #1 on that list. Given that Crapcast gives me a cable box from the late 1800s, with its serial port disabled, the only way TiVo (or any standalone DVR) could control it is via IR. Which is unreliable and ugly. Oh, and that also means you only get one lousy tuner. Unless you pay the $1000 or whatever ridiculous price they charge now for the TiVo HD box and pay Comcast for 2 CableCards. And then at the end of the day when your TiVo doesn't "Just work" who do you call? Comcast won't help you, they'll say "Should have bought our DVR." And TiVo would just blame Comcast.

Standalone DVRs are the opposite of the "It just works so perfectly" fairytale TiVo wants you to believe.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

I'm glad you're rich, but you'll forgive me if I don't want to spend 50% more on top of my TV bill for the right to record shit on a hard drive.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Why is parent being modded down?

He's absolutely right. If this country were being run by the same assholes in 1900 as the ones who run it now, we'd all still be driving Ford Model T's because Ford would have been granted a patent on the "4-wheeled driving apparatus" and given such a lead that no one else would have ever been able to compete.

Yay TiVo is good.

Boo blocking competition stagnates the industry and is BAD. Except for f**ing TiVo. That's GOOD for them.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Haha, i said "workbook" in the parent when I was thinking "woodwork."

Re:Die, TiVo

[TooMuchToDo]

Since when is paying $15/month for an entertainment-related expense considered rich? What, you make $25K/year?

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Well, I might be able to afford that if I didn't have to pay $1500 a month for rent.

Think about it this way. I would say you're lucky to be able to spend $180 a year on TiVo. I don't have that luxury because after I pay my rent, car payment, student loans, renter's, health, dental, and car insurance, power, water, and cable, and food to put on the table, I can't justify another $180 a year. Sure, I could do it, but it'd probably just force me to go into debt. Which is something I try to avoid.

Re:Die, TiVo

[stevenliv]

The Tivo HD can be had for around $250. Cablecards were created so that we wouldn't have to worry about the craptastic 1800's cable box that your cable provider would give you. One MultiStream Cablecard is all you need to have dual tuners on the Tivo HD. With so many TiVo users, i find it hard to believe it doesn't work for the majority of them.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Sorry, I was thinking of the "Tivo Series 3". Apparently they have removed their heads from their asses since then and decided to offer a unit that costs less than a small car.

What's the trade-off though? What did they leave off of the "Tivo HD" that was in the "Series 3"?

I may have to reconsider them if this "CableCard" thing actually works and isn't just another chance for Comcast to screw you.

I bet most TiVo users have only one tuner though, and just have their analog cable plugged right into it. Seriously, I bet at least 75% of them.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mrsbrisby]

My point still holds, I think. Taking a laundry list of obvious things should not make it a patent. If one of them is non-obvious -- being able to boot from the backup, without restoring it, wasn't immediately obvious to me, but still doesn't seem very innovative -- then make that the patent. However, taking a bunch of already-known or immediately obvious techniques, and adding one trivial change, shouldn't be enough to declare a completely new patent.

I think I see your confusion now.

Someone who uses those technologies says, "well that's unclever. Had I a need for that outcome, I could've done that", but patents aren't a reward for cleverness.

That is, it's not the technologies themselves that are patented, but the need in combination with the process for satisfying that need. If you have a different need, or a different process it isn't covered under the same patent.

Interestingly, when using slightly different tools, but in the same process and for the same need, it usually is covered by the patent.

As a result, when any layman performs the overtness test, they try and figure out if the need is unique first, instead of what you're doing: looking at the technologies and implementations for cleverness.

Mathematics is a troubled area. It can't be both copyrightable and patentable; it cannot be both painting and invention. Something is clearly wrong here, and while it seems to me that they have more in common with a painting of a lightbulb than of a lightbulb itself, others find that line very blurry.

Nevertheless, very few patents can be used as striking weapons. Most of them are purely defensive- to say to a judge "we're as infringing on their patent X as they are on our patent Y".

Re:Die, TiVo

[stevenliv]

The TiVo HD and Series 3 are pretty much for HD digital. even without a cable card they support dual tuners covering over the air digital antenna, analog cable, and analog antenna. the TiVo HD has less recording capacity (20hrs HD instead of 30) but on the plus side it supports multi stream cable cards which allow for dual digital tuning with one card. if your cable company still offers analog cable you can get dual tuner series 2 TiVos for under 100 dollars or even free with the rebates they offer. There are currently 3 TiVo models that have dual tuners (Series 2 DT, Series 3 and TiVo HD, and only one model that has one tuner (Series 2). Tivos may only have one analog coax jack but there is an internal splitter which allows for dual tuning. Last June the FCC required most if not all cable providers to discontinue use of cable boxes that had security (what the cable card does) built in. So chances are if you have received a cable box after last June it will be using a cable card. Cable Cards are FCC mandated devices, not a creation of the cable providers. Keep this in mind, cable providers were opposed to it. That should tell you they are good for the consumer.

Re:Die, TiVo

[danielsfca2]

Thank you for the informative post.

(To clarify, when I said I thought most people with TiVos had only one tuner, I actually meant they probably only get the use of one tuner because the signal has to go through their crappy cable box first, and they don't have any CableCards.)

I do think you're right, CableCard is a neat idea. But doesn't the DRM annoy you? One reason I built a PC DVR (probably tied for #1 reason with no monthly fees) is that I have control of what I've recorded. TiVo (even without CableCard) won't let me just FTP into it and copy the shows onto my Mac, iPod, PC, Linux machine, etc. but on my Windows-based DVR I can do just that. And with CableCard, you have HDCP mandatory, and at any point, all the networks or cable companies can just decide they're fed up with people being able to record shows, and flip the Broadcast Flag switch on 100% of the time. Making this expensive device far less useful than it was when you bought it.

I get that the CableCard is supposed to equal more choice for customers. And it would be awesome, but only if:

1. 1. Cableco didn't require and charge for a technician visit to shove a card in a slot
2. 2. Cableco didn't register the device you use the CC in, preventing you from swapping it to your new device without another charged tech visit
3. 3. No DRM. No HDCP, no broadcast flag, nothing. Come on. It's pointless. If I want HD rips of every show on TV, I know where to look—BitTorrent. Including all this BS makes it way more likely I'll stop paying their ridiculous bill altogether and start downloading all my TV like some of my friends already do.
4. 4. Make them 2-way and support an API like the electronics industry wanted, not requiring a Java (yuck!) environment for running more shitty cable-company interfaces, (which is what I believe has been chosen for CableCard 2.0, by the cablecos). Standardize a simple protocol for buying Video-on-Demand, PPV, etc.
5. 5. Allow me to use a CableCard in a PC. A real PC, not freaking Vista built by an approved OEM only. Open freaking standards. The card's job is to decrypt the TV signal if I have the right to it. That's the only part that needs to be secret. I suppose without the added DRM, as stated above, this would be a given.

I think right now the CableCard represents a move away from choice--now it's more like "your choice of any restrictive-DRM-having appliance-like DVR that limits your fair-use rights that has been approved by Cable Labs."

Re:Die, TiVo

[stevenliv]

To be fair, TiVo allows for device/content shifting with the TiVo Desktop software. It isn't as easy and simple as a pc transfer, but it is better than nothing, which is what the cable companies offer. I agree with you 100% on the cable card issue, but currently that is the only way to go about it. I feel the consumer always gets the short stick when it comes to copyrights, DRM, etc. To be truthful, my tv watching is a mix of Tivo (Cable) and bittorrent downloading.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Abcd1234]

Perhaps it's that Tivo "just works"? If I wasn't gainfully employeed and had tens of hours a week to burn, I'd get a MythTV box.

Huh? I mean, granted, it took me, let's see... a day or two to get Myth running, then a bit of tweaking here and there for the few weeks that followed in order to get things running smoothly. Since then (about a year ago), it's basically been an appliance.

Something tells me you've either never actually installed and run a Myth system before, or it was so long ago that your complaints simply no longer apply.

Re:Die, TiVo

[Abcd1234]

I'd set up Myth TV in an instant, but as far as I know it will not record any of the encrypted shows (i.e. sci-fi channel) on cable.

Use a cheap cable tuner from your provider and route it's output into a capture card on the Myth side. Then drive the menagerie using an IR blaster (mine are from www.irblaster.info).

I have this set up in my system (using a pair of cheap Motorola boxes I picked up off of ebay) and in the year and a bit my system has been in service, I can count the number of missed tunes on one hand (and I suspect those are just a bug in my channel changing script that I never seem to get around to fixing, since it happens once in a blue moon).

Heck, if you get really lucky, the tuner box may have a serial or firewire port you can use to trigger the channel changes, in case you're leary of IR blasters (though, like I say, I think those fears are massively overblown).

Re:Die, TiVo

[mattack2]

It's not FTP, but I download shows from my Tivos on my Mac, with a simple web browser. You do need a third party tool to decode the show, but that's because the only officially supported way of doing this on the Mac is to buy Toast. On PCs, the software is there for free.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mattack2]

I forgot one thing. By the way, I have no CableCards either, and I'm able to do this. You can do this if you DO have CableCards, except for the explicitly protected shows.
Without CableCards, I believe NO programs would be protected, since the only thing you're recording then are analog recordings and digital OTA, which is prohibited from
having the 'broadcast flag' turned on.

Re:Die, TiVo

[SanityInAnarchy]

Interestingly, when using slightly different tools, but in the same process and for the same need, it usually is covered by the patent.

That's why I see them as holding back progress, especially when they last for so long.

Fifteen years ago, Windows 95 had just come out, and people were starting to get used to the idea of the Internet. Imagine someone had managed to patent the idea of setting up a universal directory of websites, searchable by keywords, and indexed for efficiency. Where would Google be today?

I find that it's precisely the things which aren't patented, or the areas in which patents are ignored, that the more interesting things happen. I have a hard time imagining a patent system where this is not the case.

As a result, when any layman performs the overtness test, they try and figure out if the need is unique first, instead of what you're doing: looking at the technologies and implementations for cleverness.

It's more that I feel that both the technology and the implementation is obvious.

Specifically: Given the need to fastforward a finite amount of time, an implementation of creating a button for that, and seeking through an index in the stored video, is kind of obvious. Given a desire to skip commercials, and the reality of what people were already doing with VCRs, the need to fastforward a finite amount of time seems obvious.

It could be that hindsight is 20/20 there, or that I really need to actually read that specific patent.

Mathematics is a troubled area. It can't be both copyrightable and patentable; it cannot be both painting and invention.

The same would be true of software, I would think.

Actually, I don't entirely agree there. A painting may not be functional, but it is possible for something to be both functional and a beautiful work of art. The trick is, in the real world, it's much easier to figure out what is form and what is function -- in software, not so much.

Re:Die, TiVo

[mrsbrisby]

Imagine someone had managed to patent the idea of setting up a universal directory of websites, searchable by keywords, and indexed for efficiency. Where would Google be today?

Well, you couldn't. You'd have to patent a certain method of indexing and sorting them.

The same would be true of software, I would think.

Agreed. To that end I don't think that software can/should be patented, and that anything that can only ever be implemented in software shouldn't receive patent protection; nor should the software form of anything receive patent protection.

PlU5 2, Troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

channel #GNAa on has steadily

No new cards

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope this $92 million dollar settlement will prevent Tivo from rolling out new nagra cards. It might buy us a few more years of easy piracy. Thanks Tivo.

Re:No new cards

[Anonymous Coward]

QFT!!!

True Justice is not Negotiable

[Anonymous Coward]

WOW! The courts deserve a round of applauds. Ergen political and economical power did not erode the justice system. It is time to start seeing SERIUOSLY the threat that, our technology is taken. Echostar can not be an example for the Chinese, Japanese and other countries of stealing technology and get away with it. The fact is, that without protection for our tech patents and rights, it will be easy to replicate the hard work of our tech inventors and innovators-- by technology depredators. For instances, I could just copy Yahoo, or Google front-page formats and make it my own. EASY, but not too fast Dish buddies. I do not think the Supreme Court justice is negotiable.

I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap

[gearloos]

Hey! In all these years, my first real /.rant! Naw probably been a few before. This explains why the sudden change to a less intuitive, absolutely illogical, bloated software they pushed out a few months ago. Never did figure out what the new "feature" named DishPass was anyway. Some way to record things I don't want, in ways I don't like. Nice. I wondered why, after years of my DVR doing things the way I liked, it suddenly turned into a big smoking pile o cow dung! Unfortunately for Dish, this new information won't stop the change I've already put in motion. I am going MythTV/Fedora and cable. Screw Dish and the 5.95/Month fee for the pleasure of using the DVR the I ALREADY OWN! Never thought I'd go back to cable but ohh well. Theres always the Canadian Freesats.

Re:I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap

[PenGun]

Just stick a SAT card in yer machine and google away. The info is not well hidden and you too can have it all. Dish is easy.

Re:I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap

[Achromatic1978]

You own the Dish DVR they gave you? Really? How much did you pay for it? Where's your receipt for it? You pay a fee because you RENT the fucking thing. I'd love to see your argument when you cancel your service. "Oh no, I own the DVR, you can't have it back".

Guess what? BUY a TiVo, then, and enjoy the FEE then for using a DVR you ACTUALLY OWN.

Re:I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap

[gearloos]

I did buy it you idiot. As I bought ALL my Dish recievers for the last 10 + years. I spent close to 500 on this one. Jeeze, think BEFORE you post. Just because they don't sell them now does not mean it was always that way.

Re:I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap

[Achromatic1978]

In which case I will stand duly, and humbly, corrected. :)

SCOTUS

[jhoger]

And the Supremes answer would be something like "love don't come easy."

Sigh. I guess we'll "just have to wait."

Re:SCOTUS

[Macthorpe]

Well, you know what they say - sometimes patent law is just a game of give and take.

Re:SCOTUS

[Smallpond]

Anyway, an appeal could take a long time if you keep me hanging on. Didn't Scalia replace Diana Ross?

No, likely not true

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Dish lawyers are *claiming* that new software doesn't violate the patents, but what credibility do they have?

Look at the evidence:

(1) They are still claiming their original software doesn't violate the patents
(2) TiVo patents are quite broad and I would imagine difficult to work around
(3) No Dish customers have reported any issues or changes to the operation or capabilities of their DVR

This is quite obviously a lie by Dish lawyers which they will have the burden to prove.

Re:No, likely not true

[Achromatic1978]

Wow, bias much. Patents are often disputable and subjective, especially "quite broad ones". The patent ties to functionality and implementation. So no UI changes means, frankly, not a lot.

"Quite obviously a lie", really? "Burden to prove"? Uhh, you're full of shit, AC. "Balance of probabilities". When did patent law become criminal?

Re:No, likely not true

[schmeckelgruben]

AC sputtered:

(3) No Dish customers have reported any issues or changes to the operation or capabilities of their DVR
I have three Dish DVRs and have noticed many changes in their operation and capabilities. The interface keeps getting better and more functional. I see an average of one UI improvement every few months. I just was not aware that I was required to report this to anyone. This was an oversight on my part.

To whom should I report these changes? How does this affect the accuracy of your assertions?

They will kill for TV

[Anonymous Coward]

I once worked in building maintenance for a large property in Brooklyn. One day I was assigned to man the phones for problems. The worst thing that happened was the CATV feed was cut (accident). I never got so many pissed off phone calls. Worst was that we were NOT in charge of CATV. Backed up crapper ? Door won't lock ? Nothing in comparison to the lack of CATV. Nasty, nasty. I had sympathy for the very old/shut in, but the rest could have just taken a walk.

As a Dish customer, if they shut my DVR off, I expect a hefty rebate.

Tivo suing over what Dish features?

[jroysdon]

I'm out of the loop these days. I used to have a DirecTivo (series 1) which I'd upgraded the HDD, put a NIC in and could download any shows I wanted to put on CD/DVD. Been a good 4 years since I sold it off.

Since then, I moved to MyhtDora (Fedora + MythTV, with install almost 99% automated). I love it, but I'm out of the loop on what Tivo and Dish have to offer.

Just what is Tivo suing Dish over?

If anyone knows both MythTV and Tivo, what features does Tivo have that I can't do on my MythTV box (for virtually free, other than the Schedules Direct $20/year listing fee)?

Re:Tivo suing over what Dish features?

[OrieJr]

I found this article to be funny simply because when i had a tle-marketer call me ti sign up for Dish Network he said that I could get free TIVO. I proceeded to use this comment in my favorite game.... (keep the tele-marketer on the phone as long as you can) I was asking him if they were paying for the subscription fees to TIVO. He told me they must be because there are no fees. I asked him to verify that this was TIVO or was it just a DVR. The argument then switched to him saying that there was no difference between the two. This is enough for me to think TIVO should be able to end up owning the Dish Network.

Re:Tivo suing over what Dish features?

[Viewsonic]

Doing a google of the patents and lawsuit, it seems they sued them over any manipulation (Or, "Warp" in their terms) of the feeds. Ie. Pausing live tv, fast forwarding, rewinding, pretty much any DVR function. Other articles mention many other companies will be sued next.

Re:Tivo suing over what Dish features?

[jroysdon]

Which makes me wonder how MythTV and others will do. I suppose so long as it is for personal use and not commercial it should be safe.

I still don't get how Tivo got a patent on that sort of thing. One has been able to do the same with VCRs and even PCs with tuner cards well before Tivo existed. Hmph, more examples of why the patent system is broken.

Re:Tivo suing over what Dish features?

[Abcd1234]

Well, until Hauppauge is ready, legal access to premium HD content via CableCard. Well, that and just generally easier install and a more polished UI.

OTOH, HD Component capture is weeks away, now, and if you can live with Myth's quirks (and I know I can), feature-for-feature, I think Myth compares quite well (at least AFAICT), while providing capability that a Tivo owner could only dream of.

Though, I do wish Myth had some kind of suggestion feature... once you're weened off of traditional scheduled, live television, it's difficult to discover new programming to watch, especially when Myth is auto-skipping commercials for you. As of late, the only new shows I watch are ones that I happen to catch a glimpse of when the autoskip fails. :)

Re:Tivo suing over what Dish features?

[mattack2]

Umm, no, you have not been able to do that with VCRs before Tivo existed. You weren't able to rewind *earlier in the same recording* or watch a completely different recording *while the VCR was recording*.

(I always had multiple VCRs for essentially this reason -- so I could always watch something on a different videotape and FF through the ads, while recording.)

How will this affect MythTV?

[SanityInAnarchy]

As I understand it, these are basically patents on the concept of a DVR. This means that they can sue any implementation of that concept, including MythTV/Fedora (or anyone running it).

Of course, I generally don't care, and I'll run things like libdvdcss, even though that's not technically legal in the US, so that I can play the DVDs I actually bought on the OS/player of my choice. I imagine you do the same. Just thought I should give you a heads up on the legal issues...

There's nothing wrong with DRM.

[raehl]

Anyone who thinks "DRM is always bad" is an idiot, a zealot, or both. There is nothing inherently wrong with DRM itself.

The problem is POOR IMPLEMENTATIONS of DRM.

People are willing to accept DRM on their game systems because when people buy a game for their game system, they expect that the game will work on their game system, or any other game system of the same model. And it does. Nobody expects to take their Nintendo CD and pop it into their PC or Mac or to rip the bits off the CD and run it on their iPod. So the DRM that inhibits people copying games is fine, because nobody expects to be able to do it.

DRM on the CD you bought is a different beast. It's not that DRM is bad, it's that when people buy a song, they expect to be able to, and have a right to, play it on ALL of their song-playing equipment. It's not that DRM is bad, it's that the DRM is a poor implementation that interferes with people's ability to use the item they bought they way they expect and have a right to.

The vast majority of people are willing to accept DRM that only prevents them from doing illegal things and possibly things they don't want to do anyway. And why shouldn't they accept that?

Re:There's nothing wrong with DRM.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody expects to take their Nintendo CD and pop it into their PC or Mac or to rip the bits off the CD and run it on their iPod.

Nobody? I bet some people expect to be able to play a game 20 years later, when the host system is long dead. In 2028 you might want to play that Nintendo CD game, as much as I like playing C64 games from 1984.

Bell Expressvu

[GrBear]

Anyone know how this is going to play out insofar as Bell ExpressVu receivers in Canada?

They (Bell) use the identical "Echostar" PVR boxes as our neighbours to the south. Sounds to me like Bell is going to have a huff of angry customers too here shortly.

TIVO should end up owning Dish Network

[OrieJr]

I found this article to be funny simply because when i had a tle-marketer call me ti sign up for Dish Network he said that I could get free TIVO. I proceeded to use this comment in my favorite game.... (keep the tele-marketer on the phone as long as you can) I was asking him if they were paying for the subscription fees to TIVO. He told me they must be because there are no fees. I asked him to verify that this was TIVO or was it just a DVR. The argument then switched to him saying that there was no difference between the two. This is enough for me to think TIVO should be able to end up owning the Dish Network.

Directv and DRM

[ciscoguy01]

This is related, in some way.
I have a crappy, buggy Directv HR20 HD DVR. I received a message a couple days ago.

Effective April 15, 2008, DVR recordings of PPV movies will be available for 24 hours of unlimited viewing after purchase. Major movie studios have required that satellite and cable providers alike may no longer allow their customers to view these recordings for longer than 24 hours. During the 24 hour viewing period, you will continue to enjoy all of your DVR features such as pause and rewind.

It seems if I were to record a PPV movie (I don't, I don't like their PPV prices) I now have only one day to watch it before they are going to remotely erase it from my DVR.
Unbelievable.
Now there's DRM for ya!

Re:Directv and DRM

[NotQuiteInsane]

At the risk of getting flamed into oblivion by the "DRM BAAAAD" crowd... surely if you PPV a movie, you're paying for the right to watch it once. Like going to the cinema - if you want to see it again, you buy another ticket. This is pretty much how Sky advertised their 'Box Office' PPV service - "it's like a cinema in your living room" (IIRC).

Except in this case you can live-pause the movie while you refill your tub of popcorn, grab another beer, or whatever. Then if you missed a few seconds you can kick it back and watch it again so you don't miss any of the plot.

For what it's worth, I can't honestly think of any movie I've watched in the last ~4 years that I'd actually watch again...

Re:Directv and DRM

[ciscoguy01]

At the risk of getting flamed into oblivion by the "DRM BAAAAD" crowd... surely if you PPV a movie, you're paying for the right to watch it once. Like going to the cinema - if you want to see it again, you buy another ticket.

But that's not what the message said. It said I have 24 hours to watch it, after which I won't be able to watch it. They are going to delete it.
It's a DVR, remember. I can set it to record a movie that won't be showing for 2 weeks (and I DO).
But the message says they are going to delete it in 24 hours whether I have watched it or not. That's what's not right, not legitimate at all.
What if I'm not home? On vacation? Working overtime?
Compare this to getting a video from Blockbuster or Netflix. You can watch it as many times as you like until you send it back, if you ever do. You can show it to others, let them watch it, in the case of a DVD you can let them take it home and watch it.
Certainly not the same as getting a PPV movie, storing it on the HDD locally in your DVR, and having it deleted remotely by someone else.
Now that's bad DRM.

Re:Directv and DRM

[mattack2]

But the message says they are going to delete it in 24 hours whether I have watched it or not. That's what's not right, not legitimate at all.
What if I'm not home? On vacation? Working overtime?

If you're on vacation or working, you're not going to be ORDERING A PPV. These are things that *you* consciously order, not something that's happening behind your back.
Some people have griped about Unbox downloads having similar restrictions.

Re:Directv and DRM

[ciscoguy01]

Not true at all.
It's a DVR, after all. I often put thing in my record list 2 weeks ahead. And admittedly I never order PPV.
But there is nothing whatsoever stopping me from putting a new PPV show on my record list 2 weeks before it shows.
I do that often with other shows, every day in fact. But now I *can't* since if I were to order a PPV in advance it would be erased 24 hours hence.
Even if I haven't yet watched it. That is what is not legitimate.

I find this hard to believe.

[Viewsonic]

Looking around, Tivos patent covers pretty much any digital recording features. Dual tuners, fast forward, pause, rewind, etc. There really isn't a way to even skirt around these concepts and still be able to call a DVR a DVR anymore unless you're paying Tivo.

Articles mention this win will allow Tivo to pretty much go after anyone and everyone, and I'm going to guess Echostars "next generation" DVR software will also fall be next up on the chopping block. Unless of course their new DVR software doesn't allow pausing of live tv, recording, fast forwarding, rewinding.. Pretty much anything that allows you to "warp" the multimedia streams.

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dish DVR *does not* edit out commercials like tivo.