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Bill Gates's Wish Is Homeland Security's Command

theodp writes "PC World reports that DHS has extended the time foreign graduates of US colleges can stay in the country and work to almost two-and-a-half years, an 'emergency' change that drew kudos from Microsoft and other H-1B visa stakeholders. Looks like when Bill Gates says 'Jump,' the government asks 'How high?' Bill Gates's Congressional Testimony, March 12, 2008: 'Extending OPT from 12 to 29 months would help to alleviate the crisis employers are facing due to the current H-1B visa shortage. This only requires action by the Executive Branch, and Congress and this Committee should strongly urge the Department of Homeland Security to take such action immediately.' DHS Press Release, April 4, 2008: 'The US Department of Homeland Security released today an interim final rule extending the period of Optional Practical Training (OPT) from 12 to 29 months for qualified F-1 non-immigrant students.'"

71 of 374 comments (clear)

  1. Well played Mr. Gates, well played. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yep, now they can cut pay throughout the industry citing increased competition for jobs. Why should they pay you a 6 digit number when they can pay someone else a mere 5 digits.

    Acute shortage my ass.

    1. Re:Well played Mr. Gates, well played. by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Interesting
      your whinging because you might not get a 6 figure salary? cry me a fucking river asshole!

      show me some proof that hb-1 visa's have resulted in pay cuts, because i keep hearing people running their mouths about it but when i look at http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm all i see are rising wages.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Well played Mr. Gates, well played. by KPU · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your link is a single snapshot in time which does not say anything to your claim regarding "rising wages." Further, I fail to see how rising wages would imply that H1-B has little effect on wages.

    3. Re:Well played Mr. Gates, well played. by KPU · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The link you cite is again bogus as this reflects the cost to employers rather than salary, which is the original poster's issue.

      Mean computer programmer salary:
      $67,400 in May 2005
      $69,500 in May 2006

      This is an annual increase of 3.11%, which is lower than inflation of 3.39% in 2005 and 3.24% in 2006. So in some meaningless sense wages did rise, but in the meaningful sense of buying anything, wages went down.

      You still have not addressed my question regarding the relevance of rising wages to the visa.

      That said, I agree with the sentiment of your original comment.

    4. Re:Well played Mr. Gates, well played. by drsquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3.11% is much higher than nearly anyone else is getting, so I don't know what the hell you're complaining about. Only on Slashdot could someone complain about a TWO GRAND pay-rise. Back in the real world, most people are lucky to get two hundred. But go on, keep complaining about them foreigners tekking yerrrrr jerrbss.

  2. Misleading headline by TheKingAdrock · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Bill Gates has been testifying for years, yet little has been done to increase H1-B limits. It's hardly as if anyone is acting under his control...

    1. Re:Misleading headline by NoobixCube · · Score: 2, Funny

      But in previous years, he didn't have the kill switch to the OS that runs the intelligence agencies! He probably threatened to deactivate their copies of Vista :P

      --
      Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
  3. Re:You would think... by Metasquares · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They can always work here for a while, then head back home and live very well on what we would consider low pay. Not saying they would; it's just an option that domestic graduates do not have.

    Of course, inflation is making this sort of thing more and more difficult.

  4. Yay, Flamebait! by DigitalisAkujin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thanks for the very opinionated analysis on how apparently Bill Gates is now ordering the US government but the fact of the matter is this request was good for both parties, good for science, and good for the industry.

    Now get off my lawn!

    1. Re:Yay, Flamebait! by epee1221 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, singling out Microsoft seems a bit out of line. How about a list of other companies who supported/opposed this?

      --
      "The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
    2. Re:Yay, Flamebait! by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "this request was good for both parties, good for science, and good for the industry."

      Yeah , because there are no highly talented unemployed america IT engineers right now, oh wait...

      Idiot.

  5. Nice propagandizing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Or maybe, instead of "Looks like when Bill Gates says 'Jump,' the government asks 'How high?'", it's actually "When Bill Gates identifies a real problem, the government actually considers it."

    Yes, they have access to government. No, there is no magic.

  6. Disingenous tripe by The+Bungi · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Bill Gates, eh? What about all the other companies that lobbied to get this trough? IBM is one of the largest importers of foreign labor, but of course we don't want to mention that. Heck, IBM is the largest employer of L1 visa holders. IBM uses these visas to get around the salary and posting requirements of H1-B visas. Thousands and thousands of Indians, Chinese and Russians are in the US occupying jobs under L1 visas and working for IBM and a few other companies, mostly on mid- and lower-level IT jobs that pay well but don't require high qualifications, and of which there is no shortage in this country.

    Microsoft does not use L1 visas, because they don't import cheap outsourced labor like IBM does. They are trying to bring in valuable, qualified college graduates to this country to fill higher-level positions that cannot be filled with US-based engineers because at that level, there truly is a shortage.

    But hey, this is Slashdot so we can happily spin this so that it seems Bill Gates is manipulating US immigration policies for his own benefit. That way we get another "Microsoft is teh evil" bullet point for the "advocacy" folks, and Slashdot sells more ads. Everybody wins.

    1. Re:Disingenous tripe by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Informative
      "Microsoft pays standard salaries to H1-B visa holders. They are required to, by law. And they all get the same benefits as citizens and residents. That the industry at large is not willing to pay half-decent wages to qualified people is another thing. "

      Maybe MS does, but, even though standard salaries are technically required by law, in my experience it isn't working out that way. First, who is to say what the standard salary is? I've seen it where the H1-B's get much lower pay than the US citizens. And...if they want to complain, they pretty much know that they will lose their job, and without the job, they get sent back home, and they don't want that. That often doesn't happen even without the threat of a job. The H1-B's see even the lowest salary here as a fortune, so they often live like crap (to a US citizen at least), and work and send their $$ home. Later, they can move back home, and live like a king...but, the effect of their depression on US tech salaries remains and kills the industry here.

      If our citizens can't make a decent living after putting in $$$ for education here, well, it creates brain drain in the long run since no kids want to follow on in the tech industry since no money can be made in it. We still have surplus of talent here, b ut, I see brain drain taking its toll on the country.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:Disingenous tripe by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Informative

      Microsoft pays standard salaries to H1-B visa holders. They are required to, by law

      But the "standard" itself is depressed by the existence of the H1-B workers. Hell, it's not even just the fact that they're willing to work for less, but also just the fact that they're there: if you increase the supply of workers, wages go down. Full stop. This is fucking microeconomics 101; it's not negotiable or debatable. It's a fact!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  7. Before you criticize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This what Microsoft has done for this country. Their software runs alot of the country, their stock is probably is many people's 401Ks. By the way, Bill Gates sometimes knows WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. Also, this may be good for the country's economy. At least some people are trying to make concrete recommendations about how to improve the economy rather than just complain about it.

    -David Tarlow, M.D.

    dtarlow@aol.com

    1. Re:Before you criticize... by Dada+Vinci · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They're going to do the same programming and science work, whether they are here or in India/Romania/Singapore/etc. We can get them to pay US taxes and buy other goods and services in the US, or we can just ship our money overseas and let other countries take a lead in high-tech. Smart students exist overseas; the question is whether we can get them to come here and benefit us, or let them work elsewhere and allow the US to decline.

    2. Re:Before you criticize... by WhoBeDaPlaya · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's why I don't get some people's claims that we're suckling at the American tit. We pay taxes, pay rent / buy property, buy products and services locally, etc.

  8. -1, Sensationalist Headline by metlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wow, if you read all the articles linked, you'd know that it was not just Bill Gates, but others as well who testified on this subject. Secondly, a lot of companies support this, Google included. Finally, people from both parties support this.

    The majority of the people who are on OPT are folks who're in the US to go to graduate school. Rather than send them back, they are trying to extend the amount of time that they can stay in the country. How is this a bad thing?

    If anything, the number of native US candidates going to graduate school is much lesser than the number of foreign nationals coming to the US for graduate school. How is trying to retain folks who get advanced degrees a bad thing in any way?

    Finally, a lot of people with graduate degrees (i.e. majority of folks on OPT) are by no means cheap - so, the old excuse that they are being exploited etc. does not quite work here.

    Enough of the bullshit, already. A lot of folks petitioned about extending the OPT status for international students who go to graduate school in the US, and have to return because of visa policies (the H1B cap was met within a few hours last year). So, the government considered what the companies wanted and agreed to do this.

    1. Re:-1, Sensationalist Headline by hxdmp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hear, Hear! I don't think 90% of the /. repliers here actually read the details to have a clue on this. This applies to international students who obtained a Masters Degree (typically in Computer Science) at a U.S. University. Geez, what's the Masters Degree percentage of /. readers I wonder.... low, so they don't have a clue that an international student has to be decent to graduate. Universities don't lower their exam and degree requirements for international students.

      We need these folks to stay in the U.S. rather than take their talents and U.S. taught skills overseas to complete with those of us in the U.S.

      As far as international students taking jobs away from U.S. citizens that is just hog wash! (at least for Computer Science and EE) In the Silicon Valley it is very hard to find talented OS programmers right now. The job demand is there and not enough U.S. citizens can be found.

      [Able to hack a BSD kernel and looking for a Silicon Valley job? My company is hiring. Search the job boards - you'll find it]

    2. Re:-1, Sensationalist Headline by theodp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Read further, my friend. Bachelor's degree with an F-1 is all it takes, which can be accomplished with one academic year at a less-competitive school. Perhaps you're confusing this latest action with the H-1B Advanced Degree Exemption, which sets aside 20,000 H-1B visas for foreign workers with a Master's or higher level degree from a U.S. academic institution.

    3. Re:-1, Sensationalist Headline by metlin · · Score: 2

      I dare say that is because there is a large majority of foreign national students that pay significantly less than their domestic counterparts for that graduate school education. It's quite well-known that foreign nationals can get free rides to top schools (via government grants they don't have to repay) here while domestic students struggle just to get financial aid that might cover 1/3rd of the total cost. Basically, our tax dollars subsidize their education, living expenses, etc and then they compete for our jobs against our own students who are now so far in debt that it takes them years to dig themselves out. Oh, and then they can just skip on back to their native countries, and open companies that directly compete with our own.

      As a foreign national who went to a top school, I can assure you that this is not the case. In fact, I had to turn down the admission from another top school because I simply could not afford the fees. While I did have a Graduate Research Assistantship, so did several people in graduate school. In fact, it was harder for foreign nationals because we could not work more than 20 hours a week, and we had to get jobs that were within the campus. American nationals had no such limitations, and they could intern elsewhere, and could get jobs just about anywhere. Also, the fees for international students tends to be a lot higher than fees for Americans. As an American, even if you are an out of state resident, you can stay in the locale of the school for a while and become a resident. As a foreign national, even if you've been doing your PhD for 10 years, you are still considered an out of state resident and you pay full, out of state fees (plus more) as an international student.

      And while skipping back and going to the home country sounds like a fantastic idea on paper (and I've seen a lot of comments on this article mention that), it is not realistic. Do you really think that it is easy to leave everything and just go back after spending a few years here? In fact, the biggest reason a lot of folks go back is for the final reason that you mentioned - i.e. starting their own companies. And why is that? Because the US immigration system is so screwed up that as a foreign national, I cannot start my own company without going through hell and high water. This coming from someone who started two companies, and gave up on both because the effort wasn't worth it.

      To your point about them not being cheap: That's because they are allowed to take salary, and can be covered by the same benefit packages, etc that their domestic counterparts fall under, yet their living expenses are sometimes totally covered by government handouts.

      Wrong again. Foreign nationals get absolutely no special treatment. In fact, if I lose my job, I've to fly out of the country within ten days, and I do not even get social security or unemployment (even though I paid taxes just like everyone else).

      They then wonder why domestic students don't bother with the more expensive routes of getting a Master's/Doctorate in engineering or other high-tech disciplines. It's laughable. They created the mess with outsourcing domestic jobs and importing cheap students/labor. Thank our wonderful government officials and corporate overlords for the fine kettle of fish we find ourselves in.

      By the way, our educational system takes some of the blame for this as well. When you have people that think things like "New Math", "No Child Left Behind", "Ebonics" and allowing calculators for basic math (on tests at that), are all good ideas, then you know we have some real rotten apples in the barrel someplace. Education should not be a social experiment or cater to the lowest common denominator.

      When was the last time you've actually read about any student becoming a "Renaissance Man"? We're sorely lacking something in this day and age when our best and brightest spend more time on YouTube or MySpace than learning multiple languages (verbal o

    4. Re:-1, Sensationalist Headline by metlin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Forced intellectual labor and slavery - you can phrase it however you want, but you're advocating second grade citizenry for people who spent years laboring in graduate school for the privilege of staying in this country.

      I wonder when and where this country became so morally decrepit. Land of immigrants, indeed.

  9. 5 digits -- $xxx.xx by srobert · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's worse is that the 5 digits includes the cents.
    American Nerds should rise up and revolt.
    Have Fun Storming the Castle.

  10. Ridiculous headline, also... by smolloy · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Ridiculous headline. As a H1B myself, it's great to see someone trying to improve the system, even if it is archetypal /. enemy, Bill Gates. Now we need someone to work on the crazy rule that requires me to return home to renew my visa.

    Why can't I do it from here? It's not for security reasons (I'm easier to investigate while in the US, not whilst abroad) and it's not for economic reasons (surely they'd rather I was working, instead of taking weeks off to go home and wait for a new visa), so why is it?

  11. When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seriously, when?

    We're always hearing the employers claim that there's less H1-B Visas than jobs they want filled... how about letting supply and demand of the American workforce take over giving pay raises to nearly all of us IT workers.

    1. Re:When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by hkrsld · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually until a few years ago we did have a surplus of H1-B visas. That's because the Clinton administration temporarily tripled the annual quota, and that resulting number turned out to be higher than needed. When the law expired the quota reset back to its original value, which is less than what we need.

      The situation is pretty ridiculous right now. Every year there is only one week during the whole year (first week of April) during which employers can file H1-B applications. Then a lottery decides which ones get awarded, currently roughly with 3:1 odds, getting worse each year. The "losers" will have to wait for a full year to try again. The winners can be hired in October the same year, i.e. 6 months after the application was filed. The situation is made worse by the fact that the majority of visas are awarded to a handful of consulting companies in India who are gaming the system with "pseudo-consulting" businesses. These long delays are exactly why OPT is so important: it allows companies to higher graduates without having to wait for a full year until April and October come around.

      I cannot speak for all industries, but only for the one I work in, as an engineering manager with hiring responsibility (for highly qualified post-graduate software engineers): in my field that talk about how H1-B visas are allegedly used to force lower wages is just plain nonsense. Visa status has nothing to do with wages. Actually my employer prefers US citizens, then green card holders, then employees with existing temporary work visas/permits (in that order), because it simplifies the hiring process. Keep in mind that foreigners who have spent several years in US colleges and universities are not exactly stupid. They know what the prevailing wages in their industry are, and demand the same payment as US citizens -- and they get it. Don't think that those graduates are in any way dependent on US companies for getting a job. They can get high-paying jobs just as well in Canada, Europe or anywhere else. In this industry employers' biggest concern in high-tech is how to get talent and retain employees, not how much they have to pay for it. Many large companies in the SF bay area have exactly that problem, and I would be surprised if things are different in Redmont.

      If you don't like this then suggest a different solution: US citizens staying in school to get graduate degrees ? Very rare... Companies training employees for a few months before they start their job ? Takes too long, high-tech is too quick-moving for that... Companies outsourcing to engineering teams in India and China ? Yep, already happening, and not even primarily to decrease cost but just to quickly expand engineering capacity with qualified people.

    2. Re:When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by hxdmp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Arthur B. - you're way over the top. There is *plenty* of H1-B abuse. 65% of the H1-B visas go to Wipro, HCL, Infosys, etc.. that is the Indian outsourcing companies. These are for jobs that cannot be shipped overseas and have to be done on U.S. soil. So rather than hire Americans and pay a pervailing wage - they bring over cheap and barely capable Indians. Thats how they can bid so low that their service is so much cheaper to a company using them than hiring their own I.T. people would be.

      We need real H1-B reforms to stop the blatant abuse. And we should not just be opening the floodgates to purpitrate the abuse.

      Now, I'm with you for truly talented and capable engineers. These are the ones that work for Microsoft, Google, and all the other big companies needing programmers and EE's.

      AND if you get a Masters Degree or Ph.D. from a U.S. accredited university - you should get an automatic Green Card (after background check).

    3. Re:When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by mrbooze · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which small US work pool is this? I've been unemployed for 6 months, and during my job search around the Chicago area I hear the same thing from employers and recruiters: every IT job they post they get flooded with applicants. They have the freedom to be *very* picky. Don't have specific industry experience? Too bad because someone else will. Meet 95% of the skill requirements? Probably not good enough, half a dozen other applicants will meet 100%. Spent some time teaching yourself new skills? Too bad, you don't have actual job experience and a lot of other applicants do. Try to apply for a more junior position instead? Sorry, they won't even talk to you, they have enough junior applicants and don't want to take the chance you'll just jump ship if you find a better job elsewhere.

      I can't blame the employers for taking advantage of an overabundant supply to pick the best employees who they think will need the least on-the-job training, but I don't see any evidence of a so-called shortage. It's not even a salary issue, me and lots of others are perfectly willing to take a pay cut rather than not working at all, but employers are very skittish about that, I guess out of fear we'll just jump ship to some mythical better job later.

      Former co-workers in the SF Bay Area have it even worse. Hiring managers there have claimed to routinely get *thousands* of resumes for any IT job posting. People opening entry-level jobs are getting resumes from former VPs and Directors.

      I don't see where this so-called shortage comes from. Even granting that maybe me and the couple people I know are just horrible unhirable schleps, are we to believe this is true of the thousands of people trying desperately to get *any* IT job just in the SF Bay area alone?

    4. Re:When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by Minimalist360 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      THANK YOU. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. Seriously. No one ever brings this up, but it's totally true. If you think you're guaranteed a right to your job so you can not work very hard and spew opinion all over /. all day, then you're wrong. Some other guy will come along who's a little hungrier and wants it a little worse.

      Maybe Gates et al are tired of interviewing and hiring from a large pool of entitled people who come in and are more concerned with benefits than actually working, and spending 20 hours a week browsing and setting up their weekend and vacation itineraries, and occasionally doing the minimum?

      We're a two-person company (used to be more) and it's almost impossible to be competitive in any sense with local talent. So for the last 3 years we've set up a team in a country in eastern Europe. At this point all we really do is manage programmers overseas because it's really hard to get people here that are willing to work for their money. My only real problem with this setup is exchange rate (they're pegged to the Euro), but I mean, ultimately that's a hedge-able non-issue.

      But that's okay, we should unionize everyone, cap the H-1B lower, and then these companies will set up even larger facilities in India, China, etc. We can just watch CNN all day and bitch how the whole place is going down the tubes.

    5. Re:When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by Minimalist360 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe their expectations are out of whack from that bubble-era when people who had liberal arts degrees and could cut and paste javascript and do tables in HTML were making $60k a year, and so other programmers with real skills saw rates go up insanely.

      Personally, in that bubble period, my salary more than quadrupled over 5 years while moving jobs 6 times. That's CRAZY. And my salary has indeed gone down since it peaked in 2002, and I do more now, but hey I'm not OWED that ridiculous salary any more than I DESERVED those raises. They were a product of the labor market, which at that point was fairly volatile and probably could be characterized as unhealthy.

      It goes pretty deep, too. I mean we had a SURPLUS of federal tax dollars (lockbox, anyone?) that happened to dry up right as that bubble burst.

      Anyway, back to my point, a lot of people's expectations haven't adjusted with the general market. I've interviewed people where it's painfully clear they're living some fantasy where they think they're OWED a fat salary to throw code around. They're still floating on their capital gains from the bubble, were possibly floating on their housing bubbles too, and they don't really need to work very hard right now, so they stay underemployed.

      Not saying this is you and your friends in Chicago, but I've certainly seen this around the NYC area.

    6. Re:When has there ever been an H1-B Visa surplus? by gbutler69 · · Score: 2, Informative

      We need fewer H1B visas, not more. I am currently working on a government (ironically funded by DHS) project. We have a team of about 10 developers. 1/2 of the developers are H1B candidates. Not one of the H1B candidates have made ANY meaningful contribution ot the project. They are all being paid an enormous sum of money to "learn". It has actually had a negative impact on the project because I, and others, spend so much time mentoring them, teaching them, and fixing their inevitable screw-ups. This is a fraud on the American public, American Citizenry, and American Taxpayers. Meanwhile, here in the rust belt, while these supposedly necessary H1B candidates who produce NOTHING get paid salaries in the top 5% of the North-Eastern Ohio, the people born and bred here, see their incomes decline year after year while they are told their skills are not worth something, that there is no way for them to obtain new skills, and that "Oh, well, that's just global competition". It's a recipe for failure of the greatest magnitude. People won't stand for it for much longer.

      --
      Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  12. Re:Oh FUCK by Wordplay · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's completely unreasonable. I've worked with many excellent Indian programmers. The ones who've been H1B and working here in the US have shown the same range of skill as US-native employees.

    This implies it's a factor of the company's hiring processes, not anything to do with their national or educational origin.

    Outsource teams have their own common issues, but they have a lot more to do with the distance and management issues than with ethnicity or culture.

  13. I'm a highly skilled coder from Carnegie Mellon by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I still can't find a job. I'm willing to work for like 50k which is like chump change for what I can do. Oh well, some people are forced to start their own business because no one will hire them. Life could be a lot worse for me so I'm not complaining. It is just strange to put in so much work across all the years of school and not being able to land a job.

    1. Re:I'm a highly skilled coder from Carnegie Mellon by $criptah · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hey dude,

      I don't know what wrong with you. I am not a doctor, but if you have good grades and you're from a good school, you should have no issues finding a job. Please notice how I say "any job."

      I went to a public school and my grades were not fantastic. I got a job. My friends who went to public schools and earned decent grades got jobs too. My friends who went to good schools and got excellent grades found decent places of employment as well. And all of this was right after 9/11 and the economic downturn that caused many job losses.

      You say that you're an excellent coder and I do not want to doubt those skills. However, you have to remember that today's economy is not really looking for people who are good at banging out C code. Have you ever thought of repositioning yourself as somebody who can solve problems? What about being just an IT guy with an open mind? Have you ever thought of looking for non-coding jobs in the fields of consulting, system engineering or network administration? I have many friends in those areas of IT and let me tell you, they started at more than 50K a year.

      Don't give up though.

  14. Re:Why, DHS? by Mia'cova · · Score: 4, Informative

    They're changing because the H-1B cap is being reached now. An international student who graduates in the US no longer has a clear path to stick around and work. There's no point spending four years training someone only to kick them out when they want to stay. With 29 months, they can at least make a couple of attempts at the annual H-1B lottery.

  15. Re:Oh FUCK by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "Not all of them but there does seem to be an extraordinarily large group that are pretty bad.

    I think this is because most of them are doing programming just to make a buck. They are kind of like the McDonalds employees of the software world. They were given jobs after watching a video tape(*) and don't really want to be doing software development. They lack skill and any motivation other than money."

    I dunno if it is that. After working with a number of Indian programmers, I think many of the complaints against them and skills....are due to culture. It is so different than in the US with the caste system, etc.

    I've found in my experience, that many of the ones I've worked with, are quite good if it is rote, repeatable, coding with very clear and concise requirements.

    However, the areas I've seen that were lacking, were when the job required invention, finding a new way to do something that might have very vague requirements at best. I can only guess this is how it is taught over there, and with the culture, you don't question authority, but, obey it quietly. I guess that over there, they learn to work based only on what is given them, and not to think as independently as we are over here, to look for a new way to do things, etc.

    Of course, this is based only on my observations from work experience.

    I think the larger question is...why when we in the US have PLENTY of citizens that are capable of doing these jobs are we still having our politicians listening to corps that want nothing more than to lower the wages these jobs are worth....or ship them overseas. This economy is hurting...and crap like this, driving down wages to citizens (or pulling jobs from them) and giving them to foreigners that are just sending the money home is not helping matters.

    Pretty soon, the only jobs left here will be service jobs that involve a name tag and asking if "you want fries with that". Trouble is, if noone can make money, who is gonna be left to buy those fries?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  16. Good for social security, too by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The reason that Social Security is forecast to go belly-up is because of the huge difference between the number of expected retirees (due to the baby boom) and the number of people expected to be earning a good wage in their younger years. The only fix for this that won't cost each individual taxpayer a crapload of money is to have more taxpayers.

    This is enough of a problem that immigration policy should, first and foremost, be about balancing out the population curve so that the burden per taxpayer involved in fixing Social Security is manageable (hopefully permanently, by injecting enough money so that today's taxpayers are paying for their own retirement, not that of their grandparents). The best way to do this is to expand visas for highly-skilled laborers who will earn a good wage, such as H-1B. Furthermore, it's in our best interest to convince these workers to remain in the country permanently and become citizens, rather than taking their expertise back to their countries of origin.

  17. Re:Oh FUCK by junglee_iitk · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Every time there is a story about India, all comments are about call centers (yeah! I know they suck!), or Cows. Still, I have never read so much crap on Slashdot before.

    As an Indian, I have never, never, found caste being a problem, except when you want to marry a girl - and when a guy wants to bail out of some situation and invokes this card. Your hyperbole about "authority" and "cultural difference" is nothing but rotting xenophobia. That, or you are just pain trolling.

    GP was dead on point when it stated that most Indians are taught programming in the companies - they completely lack any interest in over the top performance - they know they are cheap workers, and they know their job is laborious. So much for the motivation.

    I guess that over there, they learn to work based only on what is given them, and not to think as independently as we are over here, to look for a new way to do things, etc.
    O RLY? So you don't know anything about "over there" and want to make sweeping uninformed statements... I wonder why you are not preferred.

    Of course, this is based only on my observations from work experience.
    I doubt GP had taken India culture as a course, or spent years in India. What you understand from what you see is a product of your mind. Until the Indians have personally told you how they are not taught to innovate(?), it is xenophobia - a complete lack of interest in people who are taking your jobs.
  18. Re:Oh FUCK by Shihar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Immigration is probably the only thing keeping your job here in the US. I wouldn't complain. Think about it from a corporations point of view. You have an international corporation that simply wants the work done and are truly indifferent to where it is done. When deciding where to do the bulk of their programming, the US is not exactly the most inviting place. We have some of the highest corporate taxes in the world, we have the highest wages in the world, and in general there is a very high cost of doing business here.

    There are good reasons to do work in the US. If the work is the for the US market, it doesn't hurt to have it done in the US to save time in cleaning it up make it presentable to the consumer and you have cleaner communication lines with the US marketers and business folks.

    What the immigration does is make the choice a little easier for corporations to pick the US over India. Sure, immigration does, to some small extent push down US wages. Know what pushes down US wages even more though? When they say "fuck it" and simply have the entire thing done in India for a fraction of the cost.

    So, you can either swallow that people from India (and elsewhere) come here for high wages while at the same time knocking your wages down a little, or simply have corporations throw their hands up at the high cost of doing business and simply farm it all out to India.

    Take your pick.

    Stringent immigration policies NEVER result in great economic booms that nationalist promise. Immigration has never hurt the US. The US has a long time of kicking ass and taking in the economics and academics BECAUSE it has such a liberal immigration policy. Taking in skilled workers from elsewhere is a good thing for the US and keeps jobs here. If anyone has anything to bitch about, it is India. The US is the one stealing away their skilled workers, adding them to our economy, and leaving them high and dry.

  19. Why Single Out Bill? by theodp · · Score: 4, Informative

    Granted, Microsoft is far from alone when it comes to relying on the Visa Crutch. But it was Bill Gates whose pleas were singled out by DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff as he rationalized the need for 'emergency' action.

  20. Let Everyone in! by rcallan · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Honestly, why not, what does the US have to lose? As long as they can verify that the applicants actually have skills that are in high demand, and that these companies are willing to commit to employing them for a long period of time (say 5 years), why not let them immigrate here? What does the US have to lose?

    I'm an american "worker" and I think my job would probably be one of the first filled under such a policy. I think it would be much better to fire me and fill my job with someone who is willing to work for less (if that's really the optimal thing to do), so that I can learn some new skills and work in an area where my skills are valued more highly.

    I would much rather know that my employer values my work that little that I can be replaced that "easily" (I mean no disrespect to the immigrants that would fill the job), than work for years ignorant of the fact that there's a 1000 people out there that could do my job just as well as I can, and the only reason I have the job is because I was born here.

    I think there's no question that arbitrarily holding the system out of equilibrium is a bad thing (as much as I dislike agreeing with Mr. Gates), but the real question is why do all these intelligent people want to live and work here? I thought the rest of the world passionately hated the US?

    Isn't this a contradiction that this many intelligent people want to immigrate here, while at the same time they hate our policy and government? By saying you want to live and work here aren't you admitting that living and working conditions (which one could argue are a result of our policy and government) are better in our country than they are in whatever country you came from? Again, I mean no disrespect and I'm certainly no fan of the current administration, I am just ignorant of the motivations for wanting to live and work in the US.

  21. Re:Why, DHS? by hibiki_r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The students would rather have an easier path to green cards, and eventually citizenship, but it's not the most popular idea among most Americans.

    We all know that most people's problem with illegal immigration and H1-Bs has nothing to do with the illegals being illegal or the H1-Bs lowering wages: It's plain old racism. Increasing the green card quotas would just bring more people with strange accents into the country, and that's not something that middle america wants.

    I for one find it ridiculous, but I see the racism every day.

  22. Re:Oh FUCK by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "I doubt GP had taken India culture as a course, or spent years in India. What you understand from what you see is a product of your mind. Until the Indians have personally told you how they are not taught to innovate(?), it is xenophobia - a complete lack of interest in people who are taking your jobs."

    The GP's allude to how bad Indian programmers are perceived in the US. I was merely stating my observations from working with them in the business over several years. No, I don't know much about Indian culture, never been there, never had much need to learn it, but, from what little I do know or have read about, that was what I was basing my guess on as to the reasons behind my observations.

    Just because you observe something, and it happens to be another race, culture or whatever, doesn't make you racist or xenophobic. I hate to think stating what you have experience with others, even if it is negative is the latest thing in the new 'PC' world that you can no longer state or discuss.

    Sorry if what I and others have observed working with Indians, but, I cannot believe that all of us are making it up independantly. There must be some truth to it for these things to be stated so prevalently....sorry, but grow some thicker skin. If it doesn't apply to you, then don't worry about it.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  23. Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by srobert · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So somewhere on the BLS webpage you see evidence that "real" wages are rising? 'Cause I don't see it in the real world. Did you adjust those figures for inflation?
    In the 50's and 60's American dads put in 40 hours a week in a factory with just a high school diploma and families lived pretty well. Moms stayed home with the kids. Now with college degrees, Moms and Dads put in 80-Plus, and can't even achieve the same living standards they had as children. (Or worse, they are another generation removed, and have no recollection of better times.) The median American wage earner has been losing ground for decades. More immigrant labor (legal and illegal) and "free trade" agreements are the threats used by the have-mores to get the have-nots to produce more and expect less.
    Question: The 40-hour work week became a standard in the early 20th century. With all of the improvements in productivity that have come about since then, why are we not now on a standard 32-hour workweek? We should have been there 20 years ago. The answer is in the failure of economics professors to teach students to think critically about supply-side economic theories.
    I'm not whining (or "whinging"). I'm pointing out that we are being skillfully played against one another and our lives could be better if we get smart enough to recognize it.
    Oh, and by the way here's the proof you asked for:
    http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/3060.php

    1. Re:Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is political populism...

      Were the 50's and 60's better? Racism, male chauvinist oinks, and the boys club mentality... Add on the lack of being able to fly easily, travel easily, or have any luxuries.

      You know you can live like the 50's and 60's. I am serious here. Get rid of your cable subscription, your cell phone subscription, have a single car, and everything that you did not have in the 50's and 60's. And you can live quite well.

      The problem we have is that you have all of these additional costs because you want them. For example one of the things I have done away with is a cellular phone subscription. Here in Europe people look quite strange at me. I just say, "hey I hardly use it and it saves me quite a bit of money."

      The problem is not immigration. Look at the following website.

      http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research05b5

      The immigration levels at the time you talk so fondly of were per-capita higher than now.

      The real problem is that due to globalization the West has to realize it is overpaid. The developing countries are just as smart and just as able, but paid less because they can be.

      Heck, I have had to take a massive pay cut so that I can compete in the market place. But I take in stride as I have to.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    2. Re:Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by metlin · · Score: 4, Informative

      American real wages aren't rising - if anything, they are going down.

    3. Re:Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by NormalVisual · · Score: 2, Informative

      err because of labor shortages you dumbass, that's why. not enough people to do the work.

      The "labor shortage" in the IT world is a myth. Perhaps you've not seen the infamous Cohen & Grigsby video?

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    4. Re:Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by vidarh · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You're not on a 32-hour work week because your unions have been broken. It was US unions that forced through the 40-hour workweek through decades of demonstrations, legal and illegal strikes and high risk organization work (see the employers didn't like the increasing unionization).

      Many of your union reps. and members gave their lives to secure the 8-hour day.

      To me, that is one of the things that you Americans should be most proud of, yet most of you seem to have absolutely no awareness about how much the US labor movement actually did for the world. Think about it on May 1st when the rest of the world see massive demonstrations on a day that was originally organized as a direct result of the fight of the US unions for the 8-hour day.

    5. Re:Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by Minimalist360 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh right, American Dads in the 50s and 60s. They also lived with a lot less. They didn't have a $90/month cable bill, they weren't all carrying cell phones, they didn't have broadband OR computers that needed constant updating. Etc.

      But hey, let's talk about the real problem. Taxes in the 50s and 60s were completely different, 90 percent of people paid either 0 or 20%. Social security was 3% of your check, or 6% if you add the employer part. Now it's what, 15.3% if you add the employer part? The average tax rate for families is much higher than it was in the 60s.

      Or, you could just blame it on immigrants and allowing them in rather than the host of other policy decisions (resulting in the totally retarded federal budget we have now) and economic factors that have gotten us where we are.

    6. Re:Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics by NormalVisual · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The labor shortage is quite real.

      No, it isn't. I've seen the stacks of resumes myself, and I've personally recommended quite a few domestic candidates that were qualified for the open positions, only to have their resumes round-filed in favor of less-skilled and cheaper help from overseas. I've had this same experience at multiple companies over the past 9 years, incidentally.

      That video is about how a company, after it has spent years getting an application to that point, doesn't want to see it torpedoed by an unqualified US code monkey.

      I suppose you worked closely with Cohen & Grigsby and know this for a fact, as opposed to them simply recommending ways to skirt labor law in order to bring in a cheaper and more pliable candidate?

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  24. Re:Oh FUCK by carlzum · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't believe these types of posts represent the attitudes of most slashdot readers. I suspect most of us have Indian friends and co-workers we respect professionally. I read posts like "they write inferior code" or "they aren't innovative", think the poster is a jerk, and move on. Unfortunately the few people who agree with the poster feel compelled to reply with "that's true, it's because of their [culture|genetic makeup|political system]". Anyone that's worked in the software industry long enough knows from personal experience it's BS.

  25. Re:Oh FUCK by SerpentMage · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's see... American's are loud mouths who want nothing more to do than make war with other countries.

    As you said...

    >Just because you observe something, and it happens to be another race, culture or whatever, doesn't make you racist or xenophobic.

    And you said...

    > Sorry if what I and others have observed working with [Americans], but, I cannot believe that all of us are making it up independantly. There must be some truth to it for these things to be stated so prevalently....sorry, but grow some thicker skin. If it doesn't apply to you, then don't worry about it.

    BTW I live in Switzerland and I have met Americans like this, and thus they must like this, no?

    Putting this into a REAL context. I have lived in North America (Canada, and the US) and Europe and did work in India. The reality is that you have idiots everywhere, and you have smart folks everywhere.

    The problem with your comments is that they are not PC based, but slander. Many folks confuse slander with PC, but they are two separate things. PC is to use the term person instead of man.

    Slander is when you make comments like the following:

    "I think many of the complaints against them and skills....are due to culture. It is so different than in the US with the caste system, etc"

    You freely admit:

    "No, I don't know much about Indian culture, never been there, never had much need to learn it, but, from what little I do know or have read about, that was what I was basing my guess on as to the reasons behind my observations"

    In other words you are talking out of your butt, which by legal terms is called SLANDER!

    --

    "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
    "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
  26. Give all H-1s US Citizenship Immediately by tjstork · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think the larger question is...why when we in the US have PLENTY of citizens

    Well we have PLENTY of citizens, but they do not like to do computer programming. Last time I checked, the only people that came here to the USA involuntarily were African Americans. The rest of us are ancestors of some "driving down the wages to citizens and giving them to foreigners that are just sending home is not helping matters..."

    This ridiculous, xenophobic crap has polluted the American discource since the Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam bitched about the new British arrivals in what would eventually be renamed New York. Yet, despite these waves of low wage immigrants, the United States has managed to become the riches single nation on the planet earth. I've got 13 aircraft carriers, a man on the moon, a kick ass freeway system and gasoline that even today is cheaper than any of our allies to say that a policy of open ended immigration works and works stunningly well.

    My grandmother, as did many grandparents, sent money overseas back to Europe to their families when they had it. Family is an AMERICAN value. Remember?

    I too, work with a lot of immigrants in Computer Programming, and for the most part I have found these people, whereever they come from, be it Malaysia, Viet Nam, China, India, Japan, Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, and Switzerland, to be hardworking, decent, law abiding, industrious, imaginative, family oriented, and in short the sort of people that the USA should be proud to have. These people want to work, value family, and want to be Americans. I think that, rather than making these people jump through hoops like dogs, we should be recruiting these people from around the world, agressively, and we should be honored to make them citizens of our country, and not the other way around.

    By the way too, my uncle in law did THREE combat tours in Viet Nam, earning a silver star, a couple of purple hearts. He's not a computer programmer, but he got his degree at Khe Sahn. But hey, he's just a stinking Mexican... so now you can take that stereotype about lazy hispanic people and blow that out your ass too, while you were at it.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Give all H-1s US Citizenship Immediately by tjstork · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not talking about immigration. We're talking about something akin to 'ringers' being brought in to drive down wages. H1-B workers are not immigrants, they are not coming here to work to become US citizen and stay here, they are temporary workers that drive down wages, send money home and leave eventually.

      I know a lot of H1-B workers that use the H1-B just as a way to try and get themselves into the USA.

      --
      This is my sig.
    2. Re:Give all H-1s US Citizenship Immediately by sodul · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not talking about immigration. We're talking about something akin to 'ringers' being brought in to drive down wages. H1-B workers are not immigrants, they are not coming here to work to become US citizen and stay here, they are temporary workers that drive down wages, send money home and leave eventually.

      I know a lot of H1-B workers that use the H1-B just as a way to try and get themselves into the USA.

      I second that. I've been in the US for 7 years, the last 6 were on an H1-B visa, trying to get a green card (which I now have).

      Saying that the H1-B visa is a tool for corporations to get cheap workers that can't quit when given crappy assignments is not really true. For me finding an other job was an experience issue, nobody would even reply to me until I had 3 years experience. Now I usually get contacted once a month by small and big name companies (latest one was VMWare), but I'm very happy where I am. It is true however that many 'recruiters' have no clue that an H1-B visa is easily transferable (takes 2 weeks) from one company to an other, and some would basically hang up when I mentioned I was on a Visa, making it more difficult to get an other job.

      As for the salary, while I wish I would get more so I could afford a house in my area (prices are not going down), my total compensation is well within the average according to hotjobs.com. I also get a lot of perks at work, one of the best being to only deal with smart people.

      Sending money home: I've never ever done that, my relatives don't need any help and I'm sure they would actually be very offended if I gave them any money.

  27. Re:Oh FUCK by SerpentMage · · Score: 5, Interesting

    >When they do that, the job and money stays IN OUR economy. We're talking here about H1-B visa workers...temporary workers that have no intention on staying here and becoming US citizens.

    I call BS... The reason why there are so many H1-B visas is because America does not let anything else in.

    I am quite serious here, as my wife and I were confronted with this situation. If you look at the visas of America there are no "skilled labor" immigrations like there is in Canada or Australia. In fact America is actually one of the few countries that focuses on family based immigration.

    Look at your government statistics and you will see that per capita there is very little immigration to America. Per capita America has 25% of the immigration that Australia and Canada have. And of that immigration about 60%+ is family based. In Australia and Canada it is in reverse.

    --

    "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
    "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
  28. Re:Oh FUCK by Torvaun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Many folks confuse slander with PC, Many more folks confuse slander with libel.
    --
    I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
  29. Did you see HOW those people lived back then? by srobert · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Did you see HOW those people lived back then?"

    Yes. I saw it first hand.
    Did you?

    "Because, if you worked 32 hours, I would still work 40, so I could get a raise. If you work 40, I'll work 48, because I want my son to have more. This is America, competition matters, and if you want to have more, work more."

    And if you work 48, I'll work 56 etc. And someone will have more as a result of it. But I doubt if it will ultimately be either of us. Where in this endless competition to work more do our lives actually improve? It won't until we choose cooperation over competition.

    1. Re:Did you see HOW those people lived back then? by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes. I saw it first hand. Did you?
      No, but my parents did. And when they talk about their past, all they talk about is, how poor they were then. In fact, all -everyone- I know who lived in that era talks about is, how poor they were then. Yeah, my wife's grandmother and my grandmothers all complain about the price of food, but even my grandmother noted that it wasn't until recently (like the last 30 years), that she even had meat whenever she wanted it.

      Where in this endless competition to work more do our lives actually improve? It won't until we choose cooperation over competition.

      You worry too much about what other people have and not nearly enough about your own happiness. You can't go through your life measuring yourself by the yardstick of other's possessions. You need to make peace with yourself, because, until you do, you are just dragging everyone else around you into your inner wars.

      Seriously. At the end of the day, for all of its talk about brotherhood, there is no one more obsessed with what someone else has than a liberal.

      You can work less now, if you want, if you are willing to have less. You can choose to spend your time any way you want. It is your life. If you want to be happy, be happy, go ahead... but don't get bitter because your choice to work less has you clipping coupons every now and then or that maybe you can't be as up in the pecking order of euro-styled sports sedans.

      --
      This is my sig.
  30. Good by sentientbrendan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm glad that more foreign workers will be coming to the US.

    Personally, had no trouble finding a good paying job coming out of college, so I can't say I see foreign workers "stealing" American programmers jobs. I've worked with many H1-B's and the like, but I've never felt like they were unskilled people here taking my job for less money. Instead, companies tend to use their *very* limited supply of H1-B's to poach the top talent from the foreign workforce, and it has generally been a joy to work with these people.

    People have this knee jerk reaction that "them foreigners is taking our jobs." However, this is stupid when you are talking about high tech work.

    First of all, this isn't the steel industry or the construction industry. There aren't a finite number of jobs to go around in high tech. What we see is that in practice, when there are more workers than there are secure jobs in big companies, people create their own startups in new markets that the big companies are too conservative to explore, thus creating more jobs and opening up more markets.

    For all practical purposes, there are infinite jobs in the high tech industry, because it has this property of increasing the industry in size in response to excess talent.

    The other reason it makes no sense to criticize allowing more foreign workers into the country is that this is part of a larger highly successful strategy that the US has always carried out where we brain drain other countries in order to keep them from competing from us technologically.

    It isn't that there aren't any smart people India who couldn't start their own software company. It's that all of those guys get hired by *American* companies, and end up contributing to the *American* software industry instead of the native Indian one.

    Bringing the top foreign talent here, means that we have the first pick at top people that the entire *world* has to offer working for American companies, whereas everyone else has to settle for leftovers.

    If anything, the criticism that I level against the H1-B program and other temporary work pograms, is that they are temporary. We should be recruiting top foreign workers for *immigration*. Highly educated people are a *boon* to our national economy, not a drag.

    Remember, that the national economy is the big picture that the government always has to keep in sight. A rising tide raises all boats, and we can't sacrifice the common welfare because of completely unsubstantiated fears that American born programmers can't get jobs.

  31. It won't improve the quality of Windows by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Funny

    Nothing short of a miracle can improve Windows. Having more, inexperienced minimum wage programmers ain't going to help.

    The bottom line is that programmers don't *want* to work at Microsoft. They have 10,000 open positions at any given time. Ten thousand! It says something about a company when programmers would choose to be unemployed rather than work there and the only way they can anybody at all is through indentured slave visas.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  32. Re:Do we have Star Trek Yet? by junglee_iitk · · Score: 2, Funny

    I also quit smoking :)

  33. Re:We never needed the program in the first place. by vinn01 · · Score: 2, Informative

    "ask yourself why companies are willing to pay so much for that connection..."

    You disproved your own point - companies are *not* willing to pay for that connection. Immigration processing expenses are a heck of a lot cheaper. So that's what companies choose.

    The reason that the grandparent is right on target has to do with two business trends:

    - trend towards disposable tech workers
    - trend away from paying any relocation expenses to new or current employees

    The first trend should be within most everyone's experience. The tenure of tech workers used to be measured in years. Now it's measured in months. H1-B workers better fit this trend.

    The second trend needs no explanation. Relocation used to be common for engineering/tech jobs. Now, it's rare. Again, H1-B workers better fit this trend.

    I'm old enough to remember -
    -The "newer" workers at my first job had been there 10 years. The old timers had been there 25 years+. And there was no 401K. People who stayed got a pension. And the pension plans were generous and safe.

    -National and multi-national companies relocated people for almost 50% of all open positions.

    That was my experince.

  34. Re:When Bill Gates says 'pee', they say 'what colo by megaditto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You DO know that Linus Torvalds is an immigrant (i.e. one of those people who you think is stealing your job)?

    Google, transistor, telephone, AC motor/generator, GPS, nuclear reactor, nuclear bomb, rocket engine, space program, radio transmitter... all invented by immigrants.

    So yeah, Bill Gates is the man, and having him as president would be a great idea (though he's more liberal than a tapeworm).

    --
    Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
  35. Re:Why, DHS? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Informative

    You, like many other people that bring out the "racism" crap in an effort to neuter any meaningful discussion about immigration, keep losing sight of an important issue: assimilation. And if you want to talk about racism as applied to immigration policy, the United States and its people make a poor example. We allow thousands upon thousands of people from every country on Earth to emigrate here every year, and to try to become citizens if they so wish. Calling us racist demonstrates a remarkable degree of ignorance on this subject. Try emigrating to Japan, for example: unless you can show that you are as Japanese as humanly possible you will never be a citizen. That's a far more "racist" approach to immigration than U.S. policy has ever been, but you know what? It's their country, and it's their right to decide who they want to live there. Allow us the same privilege before you call us racist: contrary to what you may believe, you do not have any intrinsic right to come here. We get to decide that, not you.

    Put it this way: no matter what country you hail from, granting citizenship to all comers is a mistake that few nations make. That's not to say that illegal immigration isn't just as big a problem for other countries as it is for America, but so far as legal immigration is concerned, the citizens of any nation have a stake in who is granted citizenship. The process of assimilation doesn't happen overnight, and just because someone is a "best and brightest" absolutely does not automatically qualify them as an asset, someone of benefit to our society. Bill Gates and his ilk would like you to believe otherwise, but only because they are insulated from the effects of their manipulations, and by their past actions have shown they don't care one whit about this country and its people. Their opinions in this matter are not to be taken seriously.

    Citizenship should be earned, not handed out willy-nilly. Whether you're English, French, German, Venezualan, Russian, Chinese ... you want to know that the people you are allowing in to your country understand your culture, accept your culture, and are willing to give their allegiance to it. That takes time, often lots of it, and has nothing whatsoever to do with your technical skills and knowledge, or whether you're willing to work for half of a domestic worker's pay. It has to do with who you are, what you believe in. If you don't believe in America, don't believe in the Constitution, don't believe in us ... we don't want or need you. You're a liability.

    My fiancee is a naturalized U.S. citizen who spent many years in this country before she was sworn in. She's proud of the fact that she worked hard, proved her worth, and is now a citizen of this great nation. However, she bitterly resents the fact that thousands of other foreign-born individuals (not to mention tens of millions of illegal Mexican immigrants) are being given rights and privileges that they have not earned and do not deserve.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  36. Re:Oh FUCK by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Historicly immigration has been a very major force in technical industry in the USA. People come from all over the world to work on large projects or meet in Silicon Vally to deliver the next big thing. US universities are full of the best and brightest from all over the world. Even if you did fix the appallingly poor levels of high school education to make that comparably to anywhere else it would still not match the benefit of the large numbers od skilled and educated people from all over the world coming into the univerisities or taking their ideas to where the money is. Perhaps it is the very susceptibility of poorly educated US investors to silicon snake oil (SCO, hydrogen car scams, naturopaths etc etc) that makes it possible for the googles and ebays to start in the USA and not in Japan, Germany or Brazil.

    None of this is going to push down US wages below the bizzare situations like cafe workers surviving from the charity of strangers (the "tip" system) and the construction of an illegal underclass that has to accept very low wages or get exposed and deported.

  37. Re:Oh FUCK by damasterwc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I totally agree... I was just reading an article today about NAFTA that said "Union groups claim 1 million jobs lost in US since passage of NAFTA" and went on to say Mexican unions say they have lost 2.5 million jobs. Liberalization of Mexico's banking system reduced the amount of money loaned to Mexican small businesses from 10% to 0.8%. Clearly the only ones benefiting are big business and the politicians they support. I think the only way we can stop it is clean money campaigns. The presidential candidates are already spending more money than the budget of small developing nations. Even if our unemployment is only 5%, it doesn't count people not on unemployment, people whose benefits have expired, and those underemployed. I love tax rebate checks as much as the next guy, but shouldn't we be investing in our infrastructure? Bringing our D- rated infrastructure up to speed and constructing oil consumption-reducing high speed rail will turn around the job losses and auto industry collapse. Thoughts?

  38. It's not just Microsoft that wants this. by jonadab · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Other people who support increasing the H1B-Visa program include, for instance, economist Alan Greenspan.

    Now, I personally haven't studied the issue enough to know what all the considerations are. But if somebody like Greenspan thinks it's a good idea, I think there's a very real possibility there might be some motivation behind doing it other than just making Microsoft happy. I believe Greenspan said something about enabling the US to better compete in the global economy. Not that Greenspan is right about everything, mind you. He also thinks our schools need to teach less advanced math and more long division because more advanced math is "vacuous" without arithmetic as a foundation -- which is clearly wrong, an idea you could only get if you were yourself never taught any advanced math in school. (Greenspan wouldn't have been, based on when he grew up; that's not his fault, but it is reality nonetheless.) Still, math and education aren't his specialty; economics _is_ his specialty, so maybe he has a rather better idea what he's talking about when he talks about the H1B program.

    Again, I haven't studied the issues surrounding H1B Visa program in any detail myself, so I won't make a claim one way or another about whether it's beneficial to ramp up the program. What I will say is that it's extremely stupid to dismiss it as just a measure to keep Microsoft happy, when it's also supported by, frankly, the leading economist in the world.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  39. Animal Farm by srobert · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If I had mod points, I'd mod you up. Ever read George Orwell's "Animal Farm". The pig in power manipulated history to be what he needed it to be. The less intelligent animals began to question their own recollection of events. In America today, it's not only that one generation questions the history that it lived through, but subsequent generations have had almost no exposure to it at all. It is relegated to the footnote section of historical knowledge. The 1886 Haymarket riot is an obscure event that very few Americans know any thing about. How poignant that a non-American brought it to our attention here.
    In China, if you Google Tiananmen Square, you won't get information on the 1989 riots because it's censored. In the U.S. you'd get complete access to the information, but it is marginalized in importance by the people who tell us what we should think about. I wouldn't trade places with the Chinese, but in many ways the corporate American propaganda system is even more insidious because it is disguised as freedom of speech.

  40. Earned? I got mine the old-fashioned way by krysith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Citizenship should be earned, not handed out willy-nilly.

    That's funny. I was born in the U.S., and they just gave me a citizenship for being born. Boy did I have to work hard at that! You don't even have to grow up in the U.S., just being born here is good enough. If that's not willy-nilly, what is?

    When people born here have to work as hard for their citizenship as your fiance did, then the system might be considered fair. As it is, I don't see the unfairness in giving rights and privileges to foreign-born individuals who didn't earn it, but rather, I see it as unfair that your fiance (and many others) had to work hard for what IS given out willy-nilly, on the basis of birth, like some aristocratic title. So, yes, it is unfair that others are getting for free what your fiance had to work for, but perhaps you should look first to those never had to do anything at all.

    The U.S. never quite gave out citizenships to all comers, but it was once much freer in allowing immigration. It should be noted that that period of freer immigration was also when we rose from being a third-rate backwoods nation to the most powerful nation on earth.