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The Milky Way's Black Hole Is Not So Quiescent

esocid writes in with a followup to the recent discussion about the possibility that our galaxy's central black hole could reignite. "Using NASA, Japanese, and European X-ray satellites, a team of Japanese astronomers has discovered that Sagittarius A* let loose a powerful flare three centuries before the time at which we are observing it (i.e., 26,000 years in the past). X-ray pulses emanating from just outside the black hole take 300 years to traverse the distance between the central black hole and a large cloud known as Sagittarius B2, so the cloud responds to events that occurred 300 years earlier. 'By observing how this cloud lit up and faded over 10 years, we could trace back the black hole's activity 300 years ago,' says team member Katsuji Koyama of Kyoto University. 'The black hole was a million times brighter three centuries ago.'"

31 of 152 comments (clear)

  1. Black(hole)box joke. by suso · · Score: 5, Funny

    has discovered that Sagittarius A* let loose a powerful flare three centuries before the time at which we are observing it (i.e., 26,000 years in the past)

    That's a bit of a confusing sentence but I think I understand. What they really meant to say is that if Sagittarius A's flare produces a 26,000 Hz tone, it
    will interfere with GT&T's subspace carrier signal and allow you to send free messages to the gamma quadrant.

  2. A million times brighter than black? by jomegat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How bright is a million times brighter than black?

    --

    In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they're not.

    1. Re:A million times brighter than black? by explosivejared · · Score: 5, Informative

      The stuff that the black hole is sucking in is under great pressure and will often ignite, which is what this article is talking about. The pressurized gas being consumed by the black hole gives off very visible radiation, not the black hole itself. The black hole gives off Hawking radiation which is not with this is talking about though.

      --
      I got a catholic block.
    2. Re:A million times brighter than black? by drerwk · · Score: 3, Informative

      It does not 'ignite' by any sense of the word. It does get very hot through friction, and emits black body radiation. But it does not burn.

    3. Re:A million times brighter than black? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It does not 'ignite' by any sense of the word. It does get very hot through friction, and emits black body radiation. But it does not burn.

      Burning requires oxygen, but everyone knows there is no oxygen in space!

      Why else would the space-men wear those funny hats?

      QED

    4. Re:A million times brighter than black? by xPsi · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think he's right, there is something about this, that's...that's so black, it's like; "How much more black could this be?" and the answer is: "None, none... more black." Seriously, though, the term "black hole" is descriptive in some ways, but is not to be taken literally. There are a lot of interactions which radiate near the event horizon. In short Black holes aren't so black

      --
      i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
    5. Re:A million times brighter than black? by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Funny

      How bright is a million times brighter than black? Dark Gray

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      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    6. Re:A million times brighter than black? by evanbd · · Score: 3, Informative

      Black holes of this size do not give off meaningful amounts of Hawking radiation. Their temperature is far, far below the cosmic microwave background temperature -- so even if they didn't capture matter, they would grow by absorbing background radiation. A one solar mass black hole is at only 60 nanokelvins; heavier black holes are colder. Perfect black bodies at that temperature glow very, very dimly.

    7. Re:A million times brighter than black? by evanbd · · Score: 4, Informative

      In astonomy and astrophysics, ignition usually refers to fusion, rather than a chemical process.

    8. Re:A million times brighter than black? by wattrlz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It does not 'ignite' by any sense of the word. It does get very hot through friction, and emits black body radiation. But it does not burn. Well, in a few senses of the word it does. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition 2nd definition of ignite as a verb includes to make luminous with heat and the 2nd definition as an intransitive verb is to begin to glow.
    9. Re:A million times brighter than black? by ozbird · · Score: 3, Informative

      How bright is a million times brighter than black?

      Since it's a million times brighter in X-rays, not much as far as your eye is concerned.

  3. "300 years ago" by l2718 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Warning: that expression does not quite meant what it seems to. The "timeline" under discussion here is from our point of view as light from that area arrives here, after about 26,000 years. On the other hand, that doesn't quite mean that the events actually happened "26,300 years ago" -- there's no good global notion of time that is applicable here.

    1. Re:"300 years ago" by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 5, Informative

      There's only a tiny fraction of c relative velocity between us and the center of the galaxy. For practical purposes we're in the same reference frame, and in any one reference frame you can do a clock synchronization algorithm that gets everybody to agree.

      The weird effects that relativity is famous for come into play when you're comparing clocks between two reference frames that are moving relative to each other at relativistic speeds.

      (Physics degree speaking here).

    2. Re:"300 years ago" by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's only a tiny fraction of c relative velocity between us and the center [sic] of the galaxy.
      True but not really relevant. Unless the readership of Slashdot is wider than I'm aware of the only frame of reference of relevance is that of the Earth. Hence that is the only frame you need to concern yourself with is that one.

      The weird effects that relativity is famous for come into play when you're comparing clocks between two reference frames that are moving relative to each other at relativistic speeds.
      Not actually true: they are larger at those relative speeds but are certainly present and noticeable at far lower velocities e.g. atomic clocks on Concord, GR corrections to GPS satellite clocks etc.

      (Physics degree speaking here).
      Physics professor speaking here :-).
    3. Re:"300 years ago" by SoVeryTired · · Score: 2, Informative

      You need to be thinking in terms of general relativity, rather than special relativity here. Given that this material is falling into a black hole, we are emphatically not in the same reference frame.

      --
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  4. Other deadly core issues? by CRCulver · · Score: 3, Informative

    In Larry Niven's old Known Space story "At the Core" (collected in Neutron Star , he conjectures that because the stars at the core are so close together, one supernova-ing could cause a chain reaction that would bring killing radiation to all reaches of the galaxy. What do astrophysicists today think of this possibility? All the hype now seems to be on black holes.

    1. Re:Other deadly core issues? by meringuoid · · Score: 3, Funny
      he conjectures that because the stars at the core are so close together, one supernova-ing could cause a chain reaction that would bring killing radiation to all reaches of the galaxy. What do astrophysicists today think of this possibility? All the hype now seems to be on black holes.

      It's not thought likely. Supernovae are triggered by the collapse of a star's core; external phenomena don't have a great deal to do with it. However, active galactic nuclei have been known about for quite some time. Perhaps when Niven was writing, the idea that active galaxies were powered by chained supernova swarms was current in the literature.

      The contemporary model for such phenomena is that the gas swirling around the black hole is heated by friction and by compression as it moves inward. Consider: you're dropping thousands of solar masses through the deepest gravity well in the universe. That releases an awful lot of energy. It makes little difference to Niven's nightmare scenario: it's entirely possible that our Galaxy was active in this way in the past, may become so again in the future, and may even be a little bit active right now. If anyone were to go to the galactic core today in a General Products #3 hull with a quantum-II hyperdrive and discover that the X-ray flux was way, way higher than it ought to be... then we'd better start making plans to run to Andromeda, now.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:Other deadly core issues? by HiThere · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, Niven wrote before we knew that the Milky Way *HAD* a central black hole. He was assuming that there were a whole bunch of really large stars hidden behind the gas clouds (that we couldn't see through from ground level).

      At the time he wrote it, it was plausible. Now he'd probably write about a huge gamma burst instead. Not quite as destructive. Or he could write about a cluster of stars that had been merged into the accretion disk, and were now feeding into the central black hole.

      Don't try to make what he wrote then match with current possibilities. It doesn't mesh. If you want to find really blatant mismatches, look at his really early stories that take place within the solar system, and before the interstellar drive. (More particularly, before the "Gil the Arm" stories.) Try "Becalmed in Hell".

      Niven made reasonable guesses given what was known at the time. Don't try to stuff his guesses into what was later discovered. They don't fit.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  5. yet more evidence of human interferance by CodeMunch · · Score: 4, Funny

    "'The black hole was a million times brighter three centuries ago.'"

    Damn global warming!

  6. The Two Things Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    To all those confused about black holes being bright - you need to learn the "two things rule" proposed by a colleague of mine - it runs like this:

    There are two things you need to know about black holes: They're not black, and they're not holes.
    There are two things you need to know about parallel universes: They're not parallel, and they're not universes.
    There are two things you need to know about the big bang: It wasn't big and it didn't bang.

    Sadly it extends way beyond just physics, but it does give an insight into why physicists have trouble communicating with the public - names come from the very early days of an idea and as often as not end up being misnomers.

    1. Re:The Two Things Rule by sm62704 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sadly it extends way beyond just physics

      Pogo said it best: Nuclear physics ain't so new, and it ain't so clear.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  7. Re:Matter ingestion by explosivejared · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is what I think you are looking for. The black hole is essentially working as a particle accelerator. The article I linked to mentions that the forces involved can can produce rays in the trillions of electron volts.

    --
    I got a catholic block.
  8. Re:Now I'm completly lost by lottameez · · Score: 3, Funny

    You may refer to it as "the hole who so recently was known as black".

    Ni.

    --
    Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
  9. Re:Now I'm completly lost by l2718 · · Score: 3, Informative

    We are talking of a BLACK hole here, correct ?

    The black hole itself is, indeed, black for all intents and purposes. However, matter falling into the black hole (but still outside the horizon) heats up as it accelerates, emitting thermal radiation, typically in the X-ray spectrum. Thus one talks about "brightness", the brightness of the region right around the black hole.

    An illustrative example: for an outside observer, the "temperature of the sun" can mean the temperature of the part one sees, that is the surface temperature (roughly 6000 kelvin). This is not the same as the core temperature of the sun (roughly 1.5x10^7 kelvin).

  10. of course a black hole can give off light by pclminion · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Anything within the event horizon of the hole, by definition, cannot escape to the outside universe again. But that doesn't mean that matter OUTSIDE the horizon, falling into the hole, doesn't get heated up unbelievably hot and radiate like hell.

    I suppose you could make a pedantic argument that it isn't the hole glowing, it's the matter falling into it, but it's certainly the hole which causes it.

  11. Re:Now I'm completly lost by protolith · · Score: 5, Funny

    The term black is offensive to some, We say African American Holes

  12. New extinction event hypothesis? by PoliTech · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Consider the hypothesis about the layer of enriched iridium in rocks formed at the boundary between the Triassic and Jurassic geologic periods and the associated extinction event... 200 million years ago.

    And the similar hypothesis about the layer of enriched iridium in rocks formed at the boundary between Cretaceous and those of the Tertiary periods and the associated extinction event ... 65.5 million years ago.

    Could that suggest an alternative to the "impact from an asteroid or comet" hypothesis? Could this actually be the observance of a 100 million year "or so" natural galactic cycle?

    If that is indeed the case, we should expect our local galactic black hole to go "milky white" in 15 to 35 million years or so.

    Keep your sunglasses handy!

    BTW, if you couldn't already tell ... IANAAP and IANAPG

    1. Re:New extinction event hypothesis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You posted anonymously, so you don't have a signature, genius.

      It isn't an issue of stupidity no matter how much you wish it was, just an issue of posting too fast. Besides, I do have a signature but my post didn't, that is all. Anyway, here it is: Failure to question fundamental statements, even when made by eminent authorities, is a key feature of poor science. - Simon Singh

  13. Sounds like the Brown Note? by AnomaliesAndrew · · Score: 2, Funny

    "let loose a powerful flare"...

    "26,000 Hz tone"...

    Sounds like the Brown Note...

    --
    Move all sig!
  14. Re:Now I'm completly lost by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's one of my favorite movies.

  15. Light echo by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    True but not really relevant. Unless the readership of Slashdot is wider than I'm aware of the only frame of reference of relevance is that of the Earth. Hence that is the only frame you need to concern yourself with is that one.

    Remember that the Earth frame is arbitrary. Although relativity stipulates that there is no privileged frame, strictly speaking there is only one intertial frame which is at rest with respect to the cosmic microwave background radiation; if the Earth were at rest in it then we would see a sky with a uniform temperature in all directions. Instead we can observe a dipole moment in the sky's CMB spectrum consistent with motion at 380 km/s toward the direction of Virgo. The inertial frame of the black hole would also be worthy of consideration. But of course this is all just Slashdot nitpicking, you do your calculations in the Earth's frame because you want your result to come out in Earth proper time, and realistically this means you don't do anything different.

    Not actually true: they are larger at those relative speeds but are certainly present and noticeable at far lower velocities e.g. atomic clocks on Concord, GR corrections to GPS satellite clocks etc.

    Those effects are negligible with this level of approximation. Basically everything can be considered to be at rest; you guys are making this way harder than it is. This is a simple problem of geometric optics. We're seeing this glowing cloud, with a region 10 light years across, brightening and darkening within the space of 5 light years. That's very hard to explain as anything other than a light echo from a source nearby that must have been bright, and small, and rapidly varying in brightness. And look, there's this supermassive black hole sitting here 300 light years away. You don't have to be Einstein to figure this one out.

    The star V838 Mon is a good example of a light echo. This star emitted a huge flash in 2002 that made it the brightest star in the galaxy for a couple months. Then it dimmed to a normal brightness. Once it did, starting in mid-late 2002, we started to see a huge reflection of the flash begin to expand out from the star as it lit up the gas and dust in the vicinity. At any given time we see a glowing sheet of gas shaped like a paraboloid open towards us with the star at its focus, and every year this paraboloid gets bigger. Now that it's 2008 this thing has become a Firefox logo 12 light years wide that continues to expand outward in all directions at the speed of light.