Slashdot Mirror
Negroponte Says Windows 'Runs Well' On XO Laptop
Stony Stevenson alerts us to comments from OLPC founder Nicholas Negroponte indicating his approval of Windows' performance on the XO laptop. Negroponte said in an email, "Sugar needs a wider basis, to run on more Linux platforms and to run under Windows." The full email is available at OLPC News. He was also quoted by the Associated Press as saying that Sugar "didn't have a software architect who did it in a crisp way," and cited the lack of Flash as an example. Negroponte continued, "There are several examples like that, that we have to address without worrying about the fundamentalism in some of the open-source community. One can be an open-source advocate without being an open-source fundamentalist."
Negroponte decrying fundamentalism. That's rich.
The OLPC project has officially lost its way. I can buy Windows performance as being tangentially relevant, although I don't agree with it. But Flash?
Perhaps Nick Neg is more interested in delivering advertising to his customers than he is learning opportunities?
you can't get a little bit pregnant
Is he trying to make us believe that they couldn't get a decent software architect at MIT??? I really have to wonder how many zeros were in the check that Ballmer wrote him.
If XP can't run well on the ASUS EePC, then I doubt it runs well on the XO. This letter is all hype.
Frankly, I think the OLPC project did a great job with their first release, but realize it is only a first release. I think they should diverge and release two models next time.
Model A is closer to the $100 price tag, and will sell better in certain countries. Features should be comparable to the current XO model, but flash memory, processors, etc. keep getting cheaper.
Model B is slightly closer to the ASUS in processing power and storage. Shape, chassis, etc. can all stay the same. It won't match the ASUS model, since power usage is a major concern. But if it were slightly more powerful, you might see a KDE build optimized for it, or maybe even a toned-down version of Windows.
Being able to support a more robust Linux distro, AND the possibility of Windows will be a huge selling point. If they can get a Model B at $250 a pop, they'd sell a ton of these as well.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
He didn't say it failed open-source, he said it was a failure in that it lacked a much desired feature. Even the summary states:
"One can be an open-source advocate without being an open-source fundamentalist."
Between that and mentioning Windows, he is urging the project to be less open. Frankly, I don't care if it can run Windows. I'm all about choice and competition.
And maybe (just maybe, but I doubt it) someone can spin this to Adobe as a PR move, and they will release an open-sourced Flash plugin, or more likely, a build of the Flash plugin for the next XO.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Care to elaborate how exactly Sugar "sucks hard"? Seems it is fulfilling all the goals it was intended to.
How we know is more important than what we know.
The one thing I rather like about Sugar, is that the interface was designed to be accessible in countries lacking proper localization, using symbols heavily in the interface, and by representing data graphically perhaps moreso than via text in some places.
It also allows young children who can't read to interface with the computer in a meaningful way.
Sugar was also designed around mesh-networking, power-consumption, e-reader mode, etc.
Certainly there is room for improvement, but Puppy/Slack/DSL would not have been a perfect implementation either.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I have been shouted down several times here for objecting to the groupthink that Intel/Microsoft had some sort conspiracy going because the Classmate could run both Linux and Windows, but customers generally only wanted windows. I was informed repeatedly that "WinTel" was out to destroy OLPC.
So, here I am again to get beaten up by all the zealots... Ready for it?
THERE IS NO WINTEL CONSPIRACY TO DESTROY OLPC.
Intel just wants to sell semiconductors, no matter what software is running on it.
Microsoft just wants to sell software, no matter what semiconductor it is running on.
Flame away, but I think this development just proves my point.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
You know, it's easy to read into this and turn this into a flame war against the current OLPC Execs, but the reality is that this was probably a better solution in the long term of getting the machines into the hands of the needy children.
After all, the former head of Microsoft is a well known advocate of African public health and education. It's possible that aligning the OLPC Foundation with Microsoft also would align them with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which would be a perfect avenue to get the machines out to the people that actually need it.
If the former exec left because he didn't want to "be associated with the devil", that's pretty bad. And certainly goes against the aim of the machine to begin with.
I think people need to be less about "THIS MACHINE NEEDS TO BE OPEN SOURCE!" and more about providing help to the kids in Africa, clearly something that isn't doable with the direction they were taking.
This wouldn't be a problem if the hardware was open, the company would just be forked and OpenXO would be available to those that want it.
As it stands this project seems doomed, maybe not from the point of view of getting a laptop to a lot of children, but the original goal was to get an enabling device to a lot of children and was a far better idea.
The lack of Flash is a really stupid argument against OLPC design, though. I don't think there's anything--legal or technical--to keep a school or country from mass-installing Flash for themselves, even if OLPC doesn't.
How true, how true. I couldn't agree more. Open source is like so many things (human rights and the lead free nonsense come to mind) where some people go overboard and just take it way too far. I mean, sure, having your kid chew on a hunk of lead isn't going to be good for them. For one thing, it's not very nutritions. But some people take this way too far, and say that something that is 98% corn syrup with only a trace of lead is just as bad.
Humbug.
I think it is perfectly possible to be an open source advocate without getting all fundamentalist about it, just like you can support human rights but not get too worked up about the occasional state sponsored rape, torture, genocide, or whatever. The important thing is that you advocate the right side on the broader issue, not that you pay any attention to any specific exceptions.
And besides, what's the big deal about open source anyway? Big deal.. It's not like it was free software, or anything.
--MarkusQ
> I guess the intent is to make Microsoft happy
Exactly. If Microsoft is happy then a lot of obstacles vanish. If Microsoft isn't happy a lot of obstacles appear, deals never finalize, etc. They are the 800lb gorilla in the room and you can't ignore them.
My guess is this outcome was planned from the start. My guess OLPC got from us (us being the OS/FS crowd) exactly what they wanted. Which was exactly what Asus got. Microsoft's attention.
Both wanted XP really really cheap. Both knew that the most reliable way to get it was to wave the Linux flag and prove viability. As long as OLPC looked like vaporware Microsoft was perfectly content to allow RedHat and a bunch of idealistic volunteers to waste their time developing software to run on it. Once they shipped working hardware and showed every sign of shipping a lot of units Microsoft had no choice but to offer up XP to keep their monopoly position. OLPC knew this would happen and almost certainly planned on this outcome from day one. Had they really planned on staying with the Penguin they would have used an ARM based one chip solution and saved a lot on the 'ol power budget. The ONLY[1] reason to insist on x86 compatibility is keeping the door open to Windows.
Note that most of the same applies to Asus except they were producing in partnership with Intel as a flagship for their new low power chipsets so using an ARM wasn't an option. From day one they were including all of the drivers for XP with each unit with the expectation many/most would be reloaded after purchase. And note that just as soon as they demonstrated volume sales[2] they used that to negotiate a really sweet deal for XP. I kinda doubt even Dell got prices on XP so low they could sell Windows and Linux for the exact same price except they toss in 8GB of flash as a bone to the poor saps who buy soon to be abandoned Linux version.
[1] Remember that OLPC lacks the excuse of needing the x86 only Flash plugin since they don't ship it.
[2] To be fair, the original plan was to retail for $199. When that didn't work it probably made business sense to rethink the Linux decision since $500 machines do have the margin to cover a Windows license.
Democrat delenda est
Its not-like there was a fundamental tenant to not cause any long term dependence on the west other than the hardware, oh wait.
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
These are valid reasons to demand ogg theora support from service providers, not a reason to support people who back software patents and do other things to make imaging hard.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Fundamentalist: A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
How does that not fit *nix/OSS zealots?
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
Unless you are a small kid going to school, your opinion doesn't count. If Sugar isn't for you, then install something else. It's not like the XO is DRM'ed and you can't install anything else.
If you want Puppy Linux, by all means do it. But, unless you are a trained educator, you shouldn't be the one who decides what experience the kids should have.
Sugar seems fine for them for now.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
So maybe Microsoft is up to the task.
Are you nuts man? Maybe Microsoft is up to the task of total world domination, you mean. This is totally a farce! They want to train the 3rd world to use the Monopoly software so that they can continue their evil ambitions on into the far future - that's all.
But MS does have the dowry and an incentive. And the OLPC does need the cash.
I am really, really pissed off that Negroponte has sold out to the Monopoly. I mean - sorry to call you nuts, but I don't think you realize what you are saying. It's just monstrous that the Monopoly has the cash to corrupt every person on this planet! All these poor people in the 3rd world - they could start a revolution with Linux! I mean - they could p0wn it! They could do something with their miserable lives, instead of being locked into the Monopoly.
I think you've met the "free as in beer" crowd. Don't care about the code, don't write any code, just want the free software and is offended by anything they have to pay for. They anthropomorphize "I want free beer" to "Information wants to be free" since it doesn't sound so egoistic. Now, I appriciate the price tag as well but realize you don't get volunteers for *everything*.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You do realize that being a fanatic is worse than being a fundamentalist, right?
I'd like to see Nicholas come to my house and install XP Home on my XO with the 1GB hard drive plus all the right educational applications. Sorry, as a OLPC donator who gave one and got one to support a good cause, the recent development taken with the history of the foundation showed the management to be completely and totally inept. Negroponte had a good vision, and was influential in the trend for the ultra-low-end mini laptops, but he's no manager, businessman, salesman, technologist, and ultimately no real visionary, lost in his ever growing big head. Regrettably the hardware is solid, the overall design innovative, but the argument about OS is simply CHILDISH.
It's time for FOSS community to take over the project to help educate the children in developing countries without the fundamentalist control of its founder. It's time to scrap OLPC.
Also tell us how to use a semicolon.
Open-source advocates can be as magnanimous as they wish. As long as the other side denies their right to exist, there will be conflict.
OLPC, eee and Classmate can warm up to Microsoft all they want. As long as they keep showing off open source platforms as the launching point for hot new tech, the kids will get the picture: Open Source is where the action is.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
If they'd want to use WinCE, then they should have used ARM too. Most WinCE devices are ARM.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Putting Windows on the OLPC is the worst possible outcome I can imagine. It's like - colonialism all over again. It's like donating baby milk formula to the third world instead of promoting far healthier breast feeding. It's like Monsato donating seeds, but not allowing the next generation of seeds to be used. It's like giving a man a fish instead of teaching a man to fish. It's like selling marijuana on the school grounds. It's like force feeding indigenous peoples our culture instead of respecting their culture. Words fail me, I am so incensed. It's like selling arms to 3rd world dictators. It's like selling booze to the indians.
People - what are you talking about? It is not a question about running Flash, or about hey Windows might actually run OK, or about "education" or "not being a fundamentalist". Remember not too long ago we were debating the very concept of giving computers to people who have no food? Then Peru demonstrated the the OLPC could really make a difference - that first version - with all its flaws and sticking keys included. And now Negroponte has sold out. Reading the FA was like reading for the first time that Patrick Duruseau was supporting MSOOXML - he was "gotten to", and now Negroponte has been "gotten to".
We had a chance to do something wonderful for the poor people of 3rd world nations - beyond the convenience of mesh networking and the ability of downloading eBooks. Something far more precious than that - giving Linux to people who had never even seen Windows, and setting them free!!! Free from lock in. Free from industrial colonialism. ...and with Windows on the OLPC, what will we have? Mediocrity. People who will be forever running behind the first world nations, always playing catch up for the rest of their lives. Linux could have given them the ability to leap frog ahead! A real opportunity to develop their own technology, to find their own way forward. Children are incredibly adaptable. Give those children Linux, and a few software tools, and there is no telling what could come from it. Give them Windows, and you condemn them to slavery, to worst that our "advanced" culture suffers from. Putting Windows on the OLPC is simply promoting Windows. We have been so far unable to free ourselves from the Monopoly, and now we are going to invite 3rd worlders to share our failings. I am no fundamentalist. I don't even use use Linux. I develop software on WinXP Pro. Hooked like everybody else, a large part of my skills is knowledge of the Windows API, but I dream someday of being free. I still work in C/C++ anyhow, and so far have been able to resist .Net. I am still "portable". I still have a bit of integrity left, even after 20 years developing software for Windows. ..and I know instinctively, that putting Windows on the OLPC is the worst possible thing we can do. I am posting anonymously tonight because I have had a few beers, so I am not sure that I want what I just said to be an indelible record on the internet forever. Generally I very careful about anything I post. I have recently discovered that it can be a very liberating experience to post anonymously. Perhaps when we moderate, we should have more consideration for ACs if they have something worthwhile to say. There may be others like me that are afraid to fully speak their mind without anonymity.
I've seen company after company get burned trying to deal with M$ over the last 15 years, from IBM to DrDOS to
I would have no problem if they could somehow make the XO do everything it does now and more but put Windows as the underlying OS. But that is just not even an option and Negroponte wants Sugar taken apart so the apps run on Windows. That means the whole software design goes out the window and last decades version of a user interface is what kids will get.
That is just wrong. Kids don't need all that crap the Windows desktop brings with it. But I also find it difficult to believe that Windows can be a better OS under any GUI when self support is a design goal of the project. Microsoft can't pawn off support to OLPC or it will drown them. Hey, maybe that is the plan?
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
They can still have Linux, any motivated kid can get it, adapt it, and create. But not everybody wants to deal with software, they want it as a tool to create something else. There is so much software out there for Windows, it just makes sense people will want to use programs that have been used and refined over the years. Sometimes it's better to buy a hammer, than make one yourself.
The key to getting out from under the Windows umbrella is developing standards, continuing to increase availability of Linux software, and being first into new technologies. The fact that most low cost laptops are launching with Linux is a major step forward. Things won't change overnight, but there is significant progress being made.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
Look, fine, run windows on the XO but, were does that leave the $100 price target, burdened with a >$100 OS and then a >>$100 dollar office suite.
No clear thinking person in the open source community supports because it just doesn't make any sense. Sure, we can all pointlessly rabbit on about M$ working with the XO but economically it is just silly waste of time. If M$ wants to supply free software that is unencumbered with future surprise costs amd changes of licence some years down track, then that is great and something they should be doing but, realistically based upon past their past history and specific direct attacks on the whole idea of the OLPC, attacks that extended over a number of years, attacks that were championed by the most senior M$ management, attacks that were designed to destroy OLPC and the XO, just who is kidding who.
Based upon M$'s attacks on the whole idea of open cheap laptops for children and anybody who supported that idea, who in reality are the fundamentalists, the zealots, the evangelists of greed is god. The reality is most open source advocates run M$ windows OS, after all it gives you a choice of a wide range of computer games, fair enough that (P)OS ain't fit for work or school but as a toy OS it is just, almost, somewhat, nearly, fine ;D (hence by definition they are not making a fundamentalist choice of OSs, see, fit for purpose choices, Linux for serious stuff and windows as a toy).
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I'm sorry, but interesting as Sugar is, it's not what has created all this interest in the OLPC. What has greated the interest is that the OLPC is cheap, has cute hardware, has some really interesting technologies on it, and that its software is fully open and can be modified.
...), and it doesn't even let the thing be a decent Windows machine. And the only reason to run Windows over Linux is to run Windows applications, and they won't run well and they sure as hell won't integrate with Sugar.
Putting Windows on the OLPC and Sugar on Windows negatively affects many of those issues: it makes the thing more expensive, it eliminates many of the interesting technologies (power management, mesh networking,
The only thing that might make a tiny amount of sense is to offer Windows Mobile, because you'd actually have a chance of running Windows Mobile apps on the OLPC. But what Windows Mobile apps would be of any interest to an OLPC user? What relevant Windows Mobile apps don't already have superior Linux equivalents available?
I think Negroponte is losing it. Get the passionate, good people back that left and put the OLPC back on track. Forget about Windows.
Yes, because we all know that once things start to go better they'll have plenty of cash to pay through their nose for absurd MS licensing fees.
Windows required the XO hardware to be expanded, Linux ran on the original (cheaper) design.
Linux can be supplied free, Windows costs money, and Microsoft only provide a massively crippled version at low cost, which is still more expensive than linux.
Linux encourages and facilitates the kids to learn about the underlying OS, while not everyone will have an interest in doing this, a percentage will, and they will improve the software for their community, as well as providing local support/training to others. Learning about a microsoft platform is far more limited in scope, and not actively encouraged.
The XO runs a current version of linux, but an outdated version of windows that microsoft are pushing hard to deprecate.
Many windows apps cost money, most linux apps are available at no cost, microsoft won't provide users with a full suite of applications for free, it will just push the price up higher. even if microsoft provide apps cheap/free, they wont be the same ones being used in first world businesses so there's no advantage over linux there.
A lot of software will really need to be adapted to the local markets where the XO is sold, providing the source code will facilitate technically minded kids to assist and/or provide feedback. microsoft wont do much to adapt software to the local markets, they're a "one size fits all" operation.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!