Stealth Paint From German Inventor Werner Nickel

Gerhardius writes "Werner Nickel sounds like a Disney-style wacky inventor. He moved to the UAE to develop his previous invention: he had bred a worm whose excrement made it possible to grow radishes in the dry desert sand. That project failed so he moved on to the next item on his agenda, naturally a radar absorbing paint. While it certainly is not unique, there is some interesting history behind the development, and a proposed civilian use."

Comments

Still a long way to go

[KDR_11k]

he had bred a worm whose excrement made it possible to grow radishes in the dry desert sand.

But can that excrement allow humans to see the future and travel faster than light?

Re:Still a long way to go

[baggins2001]

You're thinking of LSD. That's already in the dessert, see "Burning Man" wikipedia.com .

Re:Still a long way to go

[porkmusket]

LSD in the dessert? Far out man, I'll take another brownie please

Re:Still a long way to go

[CRCulver]

But can that excrement allow humans to see the future and travel faster than light?

If you don't get it, the OP is a reference to Frank Herbert's novel Dune where the chemical produced by the sandwords of the desert planet Arrakis proved the key to faster-than-light travel by giving starship steersmen superhuman powers.

While I admire Herbert's creation of a science fiction novel based on modern studies of desert ecology, I felt the whole spice deal weakened the hard sci-fi goodness of what otherwise would have been a less fantastical book.

Re:Still a long way to go

[StarfishOne]

The spice expands consciousness! :D

Re:Still a long way to go

[Scrameustache]

he had bred a worm whose excrement made it possible to grow radishes in the dry desert sand.

But can that excrement allow humans to see the future and travel faster than light? First, the sleeper must awaken.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Scrameustache]

The spice expands consciousness! :D The geriatric spice extends life, and in large doses, expands consciousness. It is needed for space travel. The spice is the most precious substance in the universe, and it is only found on one planet.

What I never understood, is how they ever got to Arrakis in the first place, if you can't get there without the use of a substance only found there :-S

Re:Still a long way to go

[Actually, I do RTFA]

the chemical produced by the sandwords of the desert planet Arrakis proved the key to faster-than-light travel by giving starship steersmen superhuman powers.

To be utterly pedantic, the spice provided the key to faster-than-light navigation rather than travel/speed. The only way to navigate safely at super-light speed involves information that travels faster than light. It's an interesting point that all other Sci-Fi seems to have ignored; assuming we could travel faster than light, navigation would be an impossible hurdle (with regard to small objects... big objects you could plan for).

The spice allowed people to develop psychic powers, and see into the future and at a distance in the present. It's the least supernatural thing I can really imagine, and it deals with human consciousness, which has a supernatural aspect already.

Re:Still a long way to go

[baggins2001]

Geez, I thought I left you upstream in Cambodia.
Apparently not far enough.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still travel through space without the spice, just not faster than light. Well technically you can, just not safely.

The Spacing Guild has a monopoly on imperial banking and interstellar travel: with the use of melange, Guild Navigators are the only beings capable of piloting the massive Guild Heighliners safely through space. The heightened awareness and prescience the spice grants allows the Navigator to plot a safe course between the stars.

Heighliner operation requires both a Guild Navigator and a Holtzman generator. The Holtzman generator uses the Holtzman effect to "fold space" and allows virtually instantaneous interstellar travel. The Navigator is responsible for finding a safe path through folded space and guiding the ship. This is accomplished under the influence of melange in the form of orange spice gas. Melange provides the Navigator with the limited form of prescience required.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Sparr0]

You can also go there with the use of really smart computers to do the navigating, but those are banned in the Dune universe due to a war with sentient machines ~10000 years before the time of the Dune books.

Re:Still a long way to go

[KDR_11k]

Presumably they had other methods of travel but spice-fueled travel is the most efficient way.

Re:Still a long way to go

[sukotto]

walk without rhythm and it won't attract the radish?

Re:Still a long way to go

[gad_zuki!]

>I felt the whole spice deal weakened the hard sci-fi goodness of what otherwise would have been a less fantastical book.

Err, the entire premise of the book is about the spice. How it affects culture and religion. Youd also have to toss out the bene gesserit, life extension, expanded consciousness, arakkis, etc. You would then end up with a story about a prince who walked around his castle wishing he had better things to do.

Stick to the hard sci-fi instead of trying to mold creative authors into your boring restraints. Thanks.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Lord Maud'Dib]

Spice had nothing to do with making the ship travel faster than light. The Holtzman effect was used to "fold space" long before the spice was used to navigate it. The spice only allows you to see into the future a little way and this allows them to plot a course without obstacles because travelling faster than light - actually near instantaneously - would of course make all other forms of obstacle detection ineffectual. Yes I do know a lot about Dune, I actually appeared on a TV game show with it as my specialty.

Re:Still a long way to go

[JFitzsimmons]

Indeed they did, and this was covered in the prequel trilogy Legends of Dune. It also covers the creation of several other foundations of the Dune universe.

Re:Still a long way to go

[RoboRay]

"Yes I do know a lot about Dune, I actually appeared on a TV game show with it as my specialty."

I assume spelling Dune-related names correctly wasn't a requirement? :p

Re:Still a long way to go

[rbanffy]

Wish I could still mod you up...

Re:Still a long way to go

[QuoteMstr]

There are bigger problems with conventional science fiction faster-than-light travel: namely, the problem of FTL travel implying time travel. As much as I'd love to see FTL work, I think we're limited to slower-than-light travel, as in Clarke's Songs of Distant Earth/a) (probably my favorite hard science fiction novel.)

Re:Still a long way to go

[Profane MuthaFucka]

How can you never understand this when it's plain in the books that before spice humans relied upon computers? The spice is used for navigation, and the Holtzmann drives are used for FTL.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Profane MuthaFucka]

It's spelled right. Maud-Dib was the character that Bea Arthur played before she landed the role of Dorothy on the Golden Girls.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Glonoinha]

Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy. Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

Oh, wait.

Re:Still a long way to go

[RoboRay]

And to think... I had no idea they were Bene Gesserit.

Re:Still a long way to go

[Agent__Smith]

he had bred a worm whose excrement made it possible to grow radishes in the dry desert sand.

But can that excrement allow humans to see the future and travel faster than light? I was too busy crying about the last paragraph of the story to worry about time travel...

"In one respect, however, Essen's message is disappointing. Drivers can't expect to become invisible to police radar traps anytime soon. "When an object is moving at such close range," he admits, "even the best shield paint doesn't do any good."

Guess that paint will not be an option on next year's Z06 Corvette...

Re:Still a long way to go

[kaizokuace]

While I admire Herbert's creation of a science fiction novel based on modern studies of desert ecology, I felt the whole spice deal weakened the hard sci-fi goodness of what otherwise would have been a less fantastical book.

Really? I thought the spice was the necessary center of the plot! As spice was a reference to Middle East oil dependency. Arrakis, a bad pronunciation of Iraq with an "is" at the end. All the houses fighting over the planet? Remember when the middle east was divided between England and France after WWI? I mean, how much Arabic did Herbert throw in those books! All the Fremen spoke Arabic.

Re:Still a long way to go

[CRCulver]

I don't know what you're talking about. There was never a Dune prequel trilogy.

Re:Still a long way to go

[bandmassa]

Never read Dune, then?

Re:Still a long way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Abomination! Abomination!

captcha: fictions

Re:Still a long way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

You SUCK!

Let me guess ..

[ccozan]

worm whose excrement made it possible to grow radishes in the dry desert sand.. .. the radishes are quite ... spicy?

Re:Let me guess ..

[Dr. Cody]

I guess they'll have to drill for oil very quietly now.

Civilian use?

[Itninja]

Hmmm, I could see that being problematic. So a marginally informed Cessna owner wants to give his new plane a paint job. Then it's "Cessa to tower. Requesting clearance to land" - "Tower to Cessna, you are not showing up on radar and do not exist."

Re:Civilian use?

[Brandybuck]

Except that commercial airports use transponders, not radar, to locate planes.

Re:Civilian use?

[syncrotic]

Much more useful: radar absorbing paint for cars, to defeat police revenue enhancement activities. You can detect and jam laser, and you can detect radar... but the FCC tends to frown on jamming the latter. This is the next best thing.

Of course that won't stop Them from outlawing it, just as states are already banning laser jammers, which are nothing more than a photo sensor, a few high power IR LEDs, and some software.

Re:Civilian use?

[JustOK]

So, paint the transponder.

Re:Civilian use?

[Klaus_1250]

They have an on/off-switch. Might be easier :-)

Re:Civilian use?

[Deadstick]

Oh, jeez...

The transponders are in the airplanes, not on the airports. They help the airport's radar to see airplanes.

A transponder is a combination of a receiver and a transmitter that receives the pulses from a radar; generates a train of pulses that encode the identification and altitude of the airplane; and transmits them back to the radar. That way the guy sitting at the radar not only sees the airplane more easily, but knows which airplane it is and how high.

rj

Re:Civilian use?

[Tony Hoyle]

Static Speed cameras are optical (they take two photos at a fixed interval and measure the distance you've travelled.. it's really simple and undefeatable), and there are mobile optical versions too.. they just switch technology.

btw. those 'jammers' are useless. By the time they detect the radar it's way too late.

Re:Civilian use?

[Sique]

If you had RTFA, then you would have stumbled upon the following lines:

In one respect, however, Essen's message is disappointing. Drivers can't expect to become invisible to police radar traps anytime soon. "When an object is moving at such close range," he admits, "even the best shield paint doesn't do any good."

Re:Civilian use?

[Anonymous Coward]

Painting the on/off switch is easier than painting the transponder? Who would've thunk it.

Re:Civilian use?

[chanrobi]

He said they were *used* by them, not *on* them. Time to level your reading skills.

Re:Civilian use?

[CableModemSniper]

It's defeat-able by invisibility paint!

Re:Civilian use?

[Scrameustache]

The transponders are in the airplanes, not on the airports. I'm pretty sure they both have one.

Re:Civilian use?

[couchslug]

"That way the guy sitting at the radar not only sees the airplane more easily, but knows which airplane it is and how high."

They also squawk identification codes for each aircraft, and can be set to 7500 to signal a hijack.

Re:Civilian use?

[Deadstick]

He also said they don't use radars. Level, indeed.

rj

Re:Civilian use?

[RoboRay]

That's really not how transponders work. They do not receive the radar pulses and send them back to the radar with ID information encoded into the pulses.

They are totally seperate and unrelated systems operating on radically different frequencies. The only things they have in common is that the base station antenna is typically mounted somewhere on the rotating radar antenna so that they are ensured to both be pointing in the same direction, and they generally share a single display, with the information received from the airborne transponders superimposed over the radar video. You can break either system, and the other one will still work perfectly, just so long as the antenna is still turning and the display still works.

Re:Civilian use?

[A nonymous Coward]

The transponders are in the airplanes, not on the airports. I'm pretty sure they both have one. You're full of it. Transponders in airports make no sense. What mode does it operate in, mode U for Useless?

Re:Civilian use?

[Deadstick]

You're describing the distinction between primary and secondary radar. Yes, they're separate systems, but they're both radars. One operates on reflected pulses ("skin painting"), the other on transponded pulses, but they both get their bearing information from the pointing direction of the antenna and their range information from the out-and-return travel time of the pulses. The only difference is that the secondary radar gets information that is furnished by the airborne installation: identification ("squawk code", including emergency and hijack notifications) and pressure altitude.

rj

Re:Civilian use?

[0111 1110]

btw. those 'jammers' are useless. By the time they detect the radar it's way too late. I used to have one that actually did work. Most of the time at least. I used to drive by cops at 90mph without getting a ticket. I did slow down when I saw him of course, but by then he could already tell that I was speeding. I think the idea was that cops were so used to relying on their radar equipment that they were really distracted by not getting a reading and by then the speeder had already slowed down. So there wasn't much point in giving chase. I mean they could. But why not go for the easier fish. No shortage of speeders without radar jammers after all. It was a great and geeky feeling to be able to get shot with radar at such high speeds and not get a ticket. The problem was it only worked for X and K band, which after a few years started to become more and more rare and the jammer couldn't be relied upon.

Those jammers worked by sending back an active signal as soon as they detected an incoming one. The circuitry was fast enough to do the job. Supposedly they would get a "no reading possible" or something on their display. Aside from the real deal of not getting pulled over after getting nailed at high speed, I also used to test it against those police displays that are supposed to show your speed. It usually worked but not always. Sometimes it would show a speed like 10mph higher than I was going. Also it could be a problem in traffic with cars that had radar detectors. The unit would get quite a few false positives and then all the cars with detectors would jam on their brakes forcing me to drive even slower.

Nowadays there are really too many different threats to guard against them all. What amazes me is that there are laser jammers that supposedly work. I would have thought that to be much more difficult. Turns out to be easier.

Re:Civilian use?

[RoboRay]

No, they are both not radars. I do QA on the maintenance of both of these systems for the US Navy, as well as training and qualifying of technicians. If one of our techs referred to a interrogater/transponder communications link as "secondary radar" I'd tell his supervisor that the guy needs to go back to school.

If a system relies on the target to actively transmit an information-bearing signal, it is NOT radar.

Re:Civilian use?

[EmagGeek]

I hear Cirrus has already bought 100,000 gallons of it... it will be standard feature starting in the 2010 model year.

Re:Civilian use?

[Deadstick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar
http://www.oei-edu.com/r450.htm

rj

Re:Civilian use?

[RoboRay]

I can call a big car a boat, but that doesn't mean I should take it out on the lake.

The term "radar" is always used incorrectly when referring to an interrogator/transponder system.

Re:Civilian use?

[Nefarious Wheel]

No, they are both not radars. I do QA on the maintenance of both of these systems for the US Navy, as well as training and qualifying of technicians. If one of our techs referred to a interrogater/transponder communications link as "secondary radar" I'd tell his supervisor that the guy needs to go back to school.

If a system relies on the target to actively transmit an information-bearing signal, it is NOT radar.

He's quibbling, but it's an important quibble. RADAR = RAdio Detection And Ranging. Both use electromagnetic signal propagation at the core. That is - the same basic physics apply, but for the purposes of avionics they are set up quite differently, use different frequencies, and different protocols. RADAR depends on a bounced signal off of a passive object, and uses the return signal doppler characteristics to resolve into an image, from which information can be derived. A transponder doesn't use passive reflection but sends an encoded signal of its own in response to an encoded signal from the ground, i.e. it's a bi-directional pair of discrete transmissions. Wikipedia has an article on it. It could be expanded a bit, but it's a useful short overview. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder

Re:Civilian use?

[Deadstick]

Funny you should mention that. The Navy calls a six thousand ton submarine a "boat", too...

rj

Re:Civilian use?

[Glonoinha]

Yea. That whole myth about landing planes IFR because the airports have transponders ... total fiction.

Re:Civilian use?

[RoboRay]

That is correct. A submarine is normally referred to as a boat. We call their crewmembers Bubbleheads, too.

As a side note, did you know the US Army owns more ships than the Navy? How about that the Navy owns more airplanes than the Air Force? Maybe we should rename all the services!

Am I nitpicking on the whole radar thing? Sure. But this is /. We're supposed to nitpick over highly technical things that don't matter to 99.9% of the population.

Re:Civilian use?

[digitalchinky]

Jammers are quite effective, otherwise most states and a handful of countries wouldn't be so quick to ban them.

RADAR by its very nature can be detected far outside its own detection range, the way it is employed in speed measurement makes it easily defeated.

Laser takes a small fraction of time to aim and provide speed readings, with this length of time, and given the right positioning of sensors on the vehicle, it becomes fairly trivial to defeat as well.

Some speed cameras now also feed in to a database so that anyone defeating any camera on the network more than a couple of times will then receive an inspection/fine/impounding of their vehicle based on photographs of their plate number.

I guess the next step is more complex circuitry. Give the vehicle the ability to measure the frequency of the radar and send back a stronger signal shifted just the right amount so that it will ensure the radar shows they are travelling at a particular speed. Maybe this already exists.

No enforced speed limits where I live in the world.

Re:Civilian use?

[superdana]

How in God's holy name did you get five informative points? You basically just said that "airports use radar, not radar." Uh, what?

Re:Civilian use?

[EmagGeek]

I'm both a pilot and a radar designer, and I work for one of the largest avionics companies in the world, so this thread has been quite amusing to me.

In the strict sense, radar is radar, and a transponder is a transponder. They are completely different, and to call a transponder a radar is a misuse of the term. I don't care what the navy says, a transponder is not radar, primary or secondary, and has nothing to do with radar at all.

Radar works in two dimensions, and the transponders are sometimes used to supplement the x-y location of the target with altitude data (in the case of Mode-C or mode S). Mode-S is cool because it responds to interrogation with its own X-Y from the GPS as well as the pressure altitude.

Normally, transponders sit there and send the squawk code along with identification info (if ident is on). Within 30nm of a class-B airport, Mode-C altitude encoding is REQUIRED. When you show up on ATC radar, your squawk code is overlaid with your target indication on the map. It allows ATC to keep track of you from facility to facility.

Not all commercial airports even have radar, or even a tower for that matter. There are some very busy non-towered fields out there that use someone else's radar facility for approaches.

Re:Civilian use?

[RoboRay]

Just for clarification, the Navy guy is the one saying they are NOT the same thing. :p

While I have heard the term "secondary radar" used a few times in the past, usually by people not intimately involved in aviation or avionics, I always correct them when I get the chance. Tom Clancy is one that I'd like to correct, if I ever get the chance to meet him, because of a line in one of his books that confuses this issue. He lives pretty close to my in-laws, so I'm hoping for a run-in one day. ;)

Re:Civilian use?

[Anonymous Coward]

The cop's laser gun tells him when someone jams it. Don't expect him to be friendly, even if jamming is legal.

Re:Civilian use?

[ScreamingCactus]

But having a car made entirely of carbon fiber would!

Re:Civilian use?

[0111 1110]

The cop's laser gun tells him when someone jams it. That may be true now. Are you sure that that detection circuit cannot be defeated or tricked? It was certainly not true when I was jamming. If it had been I would have been pulled over left and right since active jamming was quite illegal in my state even then. I don't think I ever got a ticket while I had that thing. Or at least if I did no cop ever mentioned my jamming him. It was great fun and saved my arse quite a few times. But I always wanted one that was so powerful it would destroy his equipment. That would be really cool. Also one of those traffic light changers please.

Re:Civilian use?

[de_smudger]

Ohhhh.. /now/ I get it :)

..so we paint the guy sitting at the radar, right?

Re:Civilian use?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar "This article does not cite any references or sources."

Re:Civilian use?

[Mikkeles]

Historical usage. Submaraines were originally small enough to be hoisted out of the water and placed on a ship. This is a rough rule-of-thumb for a difference between a ship and a boat.

Re:Civilian use?

[Magada]

No, it wouldn't. It would MAYBE give you a lower "radar cross-section", but you wouldn't disappear.

Re:Civilian use?

[Scrameustache]

The transponders are in the airplanes, not on the airports. I'm pretty sure they both have one. You're full of it. Transponders in airports make no sense. What mode does it operate in, mode U for Useless? The aircraft has a transponder, the airport has a beacon.

Maybe you should switch away from the Asshole mode you're on.

Re:Civilian use?

[radish]

I was taught that it was the number of masts: 0-1 masts == boat, >1 masts == ship. For vessels with smoke stacks, they're supposed to count as masts, and most big ships (e.g. cruise liners) have at least one of each - making them a ship.

Re:Civilian use?

[boris111]

The aircraft has a transponder, the airport has a beacon.

Offtopic a little, but I live near a small airport. Whenever a plane lands my cell phone drops a call. I'll have full bars then it will suddenly go to none. This always coincides with a plane landing. Late at night when there are no planes landing I seem to be fine.

Re:Civilian use?

[EmagGeek]

Oh, sorry for the confusion :-)

It's sometimes hard not to get confused when there is so much misinformation around.

Re:Civilian use?

[Scrameustache]

The aircraft has a transponder, the airport has a beacon.

Offtopic a little, but I live near a small airport. Whenever a plane lands my cell phone drops a call. I'll have full bars then it will suddenly go to none. This always coincides with a plane landing. Late at night when there are no planes landing I seem to be fine. I guess that's what they mean by "This device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation".

too late for Bobby Fischer

[CDMA_Demo]

so many possibilities, had this been discovered earlier.

Re:too late for Bobby Fischer

[AndGodSed]

Uh... I don't get it. Are you referring to the Chess player?

Radar traps on the highway...

[FrankSchwab]

Drivers can't expect to become invisible to police radar traps anytime soon. "When an object is moving at such close range," he admits, "even the best shield paint doesn't do any good."

Damn.

Re:Radar traps on the highway...

[JamesTRexx]

Damn.

My take on this; "Ah crap!"

Re:Radar traps on the highway...

[Sique]

--
And the worms ate into his brain. So he's now growing radish out of his ears?

Re:Radar traps on the highway...

[mobby_6kl]

Oh, cock.

If you're getting caught by the speed traps, you aren't going fast enough.

Re:Radar traps on the highway...

[bkaul01]

So we also need to build cars that are shaped like the F-117. New generation Dodge Stealth that actually is?

Uses

[camperslo]

All that stressful military/terrorist stuff aside, that paint might just be good for silencing cell phones in movie theatres. It's generally illegal to jam any sort of licensed transmission, but creating an environment that weakens the signal is a good workaround.

Perhaps adding a layer of the paint to some consumer products, like PCs, might be a viable way of reducing the R.F. noise (and security issues that go with it?) leaking out.

Re:Uses

[AikonMGB]

You don't need this paint to silence cell-phones in a theatre.. conventional construction techniques already exist to block wireless communication.

Here at the University of Toronto, there are several large lecture halls in the Bahen Institute of Technology building that are shielded, preventing students from using cell-phones, PDAs, wireless internet, etc.

I suspect in the case of movie theatres they have done some studies and decided that for whatever reason it is a better idea not to shield the movie halls. Whether this has to with liability issues or what, I don't know..

Aikon-

Re:Uses

[kesuki]

if by conventional construction techniques you mean buying rolls of aluminum foil backed wallpaper, then yes, it's quite easy to make a cellphone proof building.

also there are simple devices that can make cellphones useless by interfering with their broadcast frequency (cellphone jammers) but i would think that aluminum foil backed wallpaper would be cheaper long term than a jammer, the advantage of a jammer is that it can be disabled from when the credits roll until the film starts...

i think the main reason not to jam/build a cheap aluminum based Faraday cage is simple. it's cheaper not to, and people can't sue you for missing a phone call that was a life or death situation (eg: a doctor who was on call trying to catch the latest film, getting called in for a medical emergency)

a little far fetched, but even doctors like movies. if their cellphone doesn't work at the movies, they might not go there...

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need this paint to silence cell-phones in a theatre.. conventional construction techniques already exist to block wireless communication. Yeah, they're called clubs, and you use them to bludgeon the jackass with the cell phone and no common courtesy. People remember to turn off their phones real fast once mister bluetooth has no teeth.

Re:Uses

[Ethan Allison]

Jamming means broadcasting static, etc. on certain frequencies that you don't have a license for, but it's not illegal to block them. Insulating your house with tinfoil isn't illegal; it's just not a very good insulator.

Re:Uses

[ahg]

(eg: a doctor who was on call trying to catch the latest film, getting called in for a medical emergency)

a little far fetched, but even doctors like movies. if their cellphone doesn't work at the movies, they might not go there... There is a perfectly good solution to this. Make it known that doctors shouldn't be in that theatre when they're on call. I'm sorry but being a doctor is not an excuse to be rude to everyone else. If you're on call, in life and death situations, spend your time elsewhere. Doctors are usually well compensated in the U.S. for the inconveniences on their schedule that their profession demands and I don't think they need to be accomodated at the theatre or other venues where taking a cell phone call would be considered rude.

My guess is the theatres bigger fear is the parent who sues over missing a frantic emergency call from a young baby sitter. A jury will more likely identify and sympathise with a parent looking for a night out, than a doctor who's paid for being available and putting themselves in a situation where they weren't.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

it's cheaper not to, and people can't sue you for missing a phone call that was a life or death situation (eg: a doctor who was on call trying to catch the latest film, getting called in for a medical emergency)

The on-call asshole can catch the movie when he's not on-call. It's common fucking decency. A supposedly intelligent doctor should have the common sense to realize what he's giving up when he accepts being on-call, or the money to buy a phone with vibrate. His job doesn't give him the right to bother people who are out trying to enjoy themselves.

Re:Uses

[Gonoff]

I work in a hospital. When I am on call, I go to Blockbusters, not the movies.

Re:Uses

[Ihmhi]

It's gonna work out real well for a university that blocks out phone calls like that when someone shoots up the school and nobody knows anything about it.

You'd think safety would be more important than some freshman getting a text with the quiz answers.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope a doctor you need someday doesnt like to go to movies!

Re:Uses

[drinkypoo]

I work in a hospital. When I am on call, I go to Blockbusters, not the movies.

Congratulations. Your medal is in the mail. Did you go to school to study the janitorial arts, or are you self-taught?

Re:Uses

[brian_tanner]

There is a perfectly good solution to this. Make it known that doctors shouldn't be in that theatre when they're on call. Don't forget other places where we don't enjoy being bothered by cell phones or loud phone conversations. Like restaurants, coffee shops, classrooms, the library, etc. Without much imagination, we could create a society that makes life impossible for people who must be available to receive important calls while they are not at their desks. Unfortunately, it's probably the doctors and 24 hour plumbers that *are* responsible ones: they put their phones on vibrate. It seems weird to say that responsible Dr. Joe can't go to a fancy restaurant when he is on call, because YOU don't want to be bothered by some other irresponsible Mr. Dickhead.

Re:Uses

[drinkypoo]

My guess is the theatres bigger fear is the parent who sues over missing a frantic emergency call from a young baby sitter. A jury will more likely identify and sympathise with a parent looking for a night out, than a doctor who's paid for being available and putting themselves in a situation where they weren't.

It's actually quite simple. Intentionally interfering with the operation of a licensed wireless communications device through the use of any unlicensed device is automatically your fault, in violation of FCC bullshit, and will get you smacked down. The FCC will send someone in to testify against you, and then when you lose, you'll end up paying for that guy's travel and time in the followup suit to recover legal costs.

My guess is the theatres bigger fear is the parent who sues over missing a frantic emergency call from a young baby sitter. A jury will more likely identify and sympathise with a parent looking for a night out, than a doctor who's paid for being available and putting themselves in a situation where they weren't.

If a babysitter has a real emergency they can call 9-1-1 and no one gets hurt. If there's no one working at the hospital, then 9-1-1 is fucked. This point will surely be made by any competent lawyer trying to prove that you are an asshole.

Re:Uses

[baggins2001]

It probably has to do with the fact that medical doctors, sometimes visit movie theaters.
Whereas you have more freshman and sophmore sorority girls deciding what is an emergency in a college lecture hall. Movie theaters have this problem, but they have a higher concentration in college halls.
I'm dating myself, but I can't imagine what it is like a teen girl in a class equipped with a cell phone ('The Horror').[There you go Mr. Culver].

Re:Uses

[v1]

Regardless of who you are, it is not my responsibility to make sure you are available in case of an emergency. If you need to be available, it is your responsibility to adjust your behavior to increase the odds that you are available, given the provided situations you find yourself in. I don't care if you're a doctor with a patient in the ICU, a parent with a sitter at home, or anyone else for that matter.

A doctor will also be without cell phone service when taking a tour of the Great Mounds Cave. That doesn't mean we should put up cell towers in there. What it means he should not be there while on call. Same goes for a theatre or any other venue where cell reception is naturally or artificially unavailable. Although any venue where a reasonable person would expect cell service but cannot get it, should have reasonable notice. In this case a note on the ticket or at the door to the theatre.

I'm so tired of people trying to make me responsible for their bad decisions. That's what your parents are for. While you're under 18. After that, take ownership of yourself.

Re:Uses

[HeavyD14]

Are they purposefully shielded, or are they just big brick buildings that block the signals as a side effect?

Re:Uses

[ahg]

It's actually quite simple. Intentionally interfering with the operation of a licensed wireless communications device through the use of any unlicensed device is automatically your fault, in violation of FCC bullshit, and will get you smacked down. The FCC will send someone in to testify against you, and then when you lose, you'll end up paying for that guy's travel and time in the followup suit to recover legal costs.

Well, I thought we were going with the notion here that a paint might be able to block RF signals... or rolls of aluminum. All passive signal blocking and not subject to FCC approval. You may need building permits but not FCC approval to panel your room with Aluminum sheeting. Yes active jamming would be illegal. It's the prospect of creating a very poor reception area, like I happen to have in my older condo hi-rise building (in my case due to thick concrete walls), that was the point being considered.

Re:Uses

[WK2]

Don't forget other places where we don't enjoy being bothered by cell phones or loud phone conversations. Like restaurants, coffee shops, classrooms, the library, etc.

That would be awesome. I don't like hearing people talk on the phone in those places either.

Without much imagination, we could create a society that makes life impossible for people who must be available to receive important calls while they are not at their desks.

Oh come now. Make life impossible? I suppose life began in the mid 90's? There are plenty of places you can get cell service even if every building in the world was shielded. Like outside. Even if every cell network ceased to exist, and became impossible to rebuild, life would go on, and would still kick ass. Phones are nice, but not necessary for life.

Re:Uses

[RoboRay]

"It probably has to do with the fact that medical doctors, sometimes visit movie theaters."

I fail to see how that's relevant. Are you suggesting that doctors were unable to vist movie theaters prior to the invention of the cell phone?

Re:Uses

[brian_tanner]

Phones are nice, but not necessary for life. Sorry if I skated around my point. I'm not suggesting that phones are necessary for a fulfilling, productive life. I'm saying *certain* careers and circumstances make it *absolutely required* to be always reachable, in our *current* society.

I agree, as you suggest, doctors can get cell service outside if every building in the world is shielded. But it also means that a doctor on call *cannot* enter any building that is shielded, even if he is the most responsible cell user in the world. It also means that I cannot go into those building if I have a relative in the hospital, for fear that I might miss an important call to their deathbed, for example. People that, by virtue of career or circumstance, are required to be reachable could be forced to live some muted version of their life in this scenario. I thought our fancy tools were supposed to free us, not limit us?

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that it would be a damn shame if the convenience of personal communication is ruined for the responsible people in order to solve the problem created by irresponsible people. But I guess in general that's the way our society tends to go.

Re:Uses

[AikonMGB]

Notice I said "lecture hall", not "exam room".. also, there are phones and PAs hardwired in the room, so if a code were issued instructors would be informed via this means, just like any other school. It's pretty naive of you to think that students' cell-phones are the only way for security information to make its way around a school.

Re:Uses

[AikonMGB]

I believe it is intentional, because immediately outside the lecture halls (still inside the building) reception is perfectly fine, but as soon as you pass through the doorway it drops off to nil.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

simply because they have a cellphone powered on and receiving signal in the middle of a movie does not make any person rude. a very good alternative is to put it on vibrate and take the talk outside. also sit where you will cause minimal annoyance while leaving or returning.

not that I condone rude behavior but I am pretty sure that people would not mind a little inconvenience if it means saving a life.

plus more money != enjoyment. money can buy more of certain kinds of fun but there are things that money can never buy.

Re:Uses

[Belial6]

The solution to cell phones in theaters is to get the cell phone manufacturers to agree on a standard "set to vibrate" signal that all cell phones will pick up. Then have short range transmitters at the entrances of the theaters. This would automatically set any phone entering the building to vibrate. There would not be the issue of emergency calls not getting through, and people would not forget to turn off their ringers.

For the inevitable "But people will still talk on them" argument... Getting people not to disturbe others in a theater is the job of the theater. It is a problem that has been presented by smoking, talking to other people, crying babies, and laser pointers. Some theaters choose to kick out people creating problems, and some theaters don't. Some jackass that decides to carry on a conversation during a movie with someone that is on the other side of town is no worse than the jackass that decides yell at the screen or carry on a conversation with the guy next to them.

If the cell phone manufacturers REALLY wanted to make the auto vibrate slick, they could set it up so that the auto vibrate mode could receive a second signal that could be mounted outside that turned the ringer back on if the way it was turned off was by the first signal. Another option would be that the ringer is turned off only while it is receiving the signal, and the transmitters could be put in the theater itself. Of course when the signal is first received, the phone should notify the owner that it is changing modes. Either by vibrating if it is already on vibrate, or by ringing with a its "I received a vibrate only signal" ring.

Re:Uses

[Hucko]

I would prefer the 'deadman switch' type scenario. And forget the ring to tell you your settings have been changed, most theaters have a big screen for displaying information.

Re:Uses

[fmobus]

It also means that I cannot go into those building if I have a relative in the hospital, for fear that I might miss an important call to their deathbed, for example

Non-sense. Unless you are a doctor too, instantly knowing of the aggravation of your relative's problem will be of no help. If the hospital is calling you, I suppose they have already had a doctor see it.

Besides, all on-call people I know (doctors, military officers, etc) I know are responsible and avoid becoming "unavailable" when they are on call: they don't travel too far, they will not drink, they will not go anywhere they can't be reached.

Re:Uses

[brian_tanner]

instantly knowing of the aggravation of your relative's problem will be of no help I might want to see them before they are gone forever, especially if they've been ill for months and suddenly take a "turn for the worse". This happens all the time.

I know are responsible and avoid becoming "unavailable" when they are on call: they don't travel too far, they will not drink, they will not go anywhere they can't be reached. Right. Being on call restricts their options: an accepted part of the job. But, now we're going to that list of taboo places: movies, restaurants, coffee shops, seminars, or any place that *you* don't want to be aggravated by irresponsible people.

Like I said in another post... I'm not defending audible ringing or actually answering the phone in these situations. Anyone with a sense of consideration should turn the sound off and screen via sender, step outside to answer, or let it hit voicemail and then excuse yourself to check it, whatever.

I just think it's too drastic to render my device unable to receive data because you think some other ass is going to interrupt your movie.

Re:Uses

[Belial6]

The 'deadman switch' scenario does remove the problem that would inevitably happen, which is that while places like theaters and libraries would make sure that the 'off' transmission works, they would have little to no incentive to make sure that the 'on' transmission works. I was thinking that the notification ring would be important because if there is simple 'off' transmission that can be broadcast, it would be used in places other than a theater. Libraries, offices, some peoples homes. While you are correct that theaters have plenty of opportunities to inform their patrons that their phones have been turned to vibrate, and likely would inform them, there would inevitably be some Neo-Luddite that would think it was their place to broadcast the signal anywhere they can to mess with peoples phones.

Re:Uses

[Fulcrum of Evil]

It's actually quite simple. Intentionally interfering with the operation of a licensed wireless communications device through the use of any unlicensed device is automatically your fault, in violation of FCC bullshit

Copper mesh doesn't count as that. It's perfectly legal to shield a room with mesh, although it's reasonable to post prominent signs to that effect.

Re:Uses

[BungaDunga]

Ringtone or not, if the movie theater is shielded then no calls will get in at all, and therefore no doctors on call will ever go to a movie.

Re:Uses

[swillden]

Regardless of who you are, it is not my responsibility to make sure you are available in case of an emergency. If you need to be available, it is your responsibility to adjust your behavior to increase the odds that you are available, given the provided situations you find yourself in.

But it is your responsibility to disable the phones of rude and obnoxious people?

If you want to take that on yourself, why not take a more direct route -- next time someone starts gabbing on the phone go take it away from them and toss it in the parking lot.

I always leave my cellphone on in the movie theater, so my kids can call if they need me. It's on vibrate, in an inside pocket where the light won't bother anyone, and I don't answer it. If it rings, I leave the theater (I always sit near the aisle so if I need to I can leave with minimal disturbance) and call back. It's a highly useful tool for me, and doesn't disturb anyone else.

In any case, theaters aren't going to install crap like this. It will bother too many of their patrons. For every childless, carefree person like you there are five who find it useful to keep their phones on during the movie, and any theater that makes their phones inoperable will see attendance decline dramatically.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

Guy: Can you hear me now?
Phone: ...
after a few minutes
Guy: Can you hear me now?
Phone: ...
Guy: Can you hear me NOW?
Phone: ...
a few weeks later they find his remains

Moral of the story: If a guy speaks into a phone, and nobody hears it - does it make a sound?

Re:Uses

[Cochonou]

I think it really depends on the culture and on the country. In France, many theaters have been installing jammers for a few years (their use in theaters was allowed by the governement around 2004, if I remember correctly).
At that time, polls had shown that about 85% of the population was favorable to such jammers. I doubt this has changed much.

Re:Uses

[Ihmhi]

Right, but for a code to be issued someone would have to know about it. You have a phone or a PA system in one place in the classroom or lecture hall with a gunman rampaging about? Whoever goes to make a call is going to be risking their lives.

Re:Uses

[baggins2001]

No, I'm saying that business professionals (doctors was an exaggeratoin) visit movie theaters. There business may require that they be available by phone. Doctors usually always have a 2nd on call.
Plus with cell phone technology being pervasive, the way business is done has changed.
I for one, am glad that I can be on call and not have to be stuck at home.

Re:Uses

[darkfire5252]

But it is your responsibility to disable the phones of rude and obnoxious people? No, I think it's the option of a movie theater to do so in order to provide a more enjoyable movie experience that doesn't require me to hope the other viewers remember to silence their phones.

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

You really can't be sued (sucessfully) if you advertise the fact up front and clearly labelled. No big deal.

And it might bring in other people who are looking for a theatre where it's actually enjoyable to watch the movie.

The theatres used to have it all - big screens, great sound, and movies that wouldn't be released to the general public for years (before VHS).

Now all those advantages are gone, and since DVD the lead time reduced to less than a year and often less than 3 months. That coupled with increasing ticket prices and declining quality of movies (imo) makes the movie theatres a bunch of expensive buildings to cool/heat.

If I really cared about movies and had a decent sized family, it's cheaper in the long run just to get an entertainment system (nothing huge - 40+ inches) with decent speakers and just use DVD/Current_Popular_Format or PPV.

At least then I'll have a decent seat and not a bunch of people around me who don't get the concept of sit down and shut up.

As it is, I don't have a family, and have time to do the odd 2 pm matinee:) Otherwise the movies aren't worth it (not a decent one this year till Iron Man if you consider Cloverfield the disappointment it was).

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

French rudeness is legendary.

Re:Uses

[swillden]

But it is your responsibility to disable the phones of rude and obnoxious people? No, I think it's the option of a movie theater to do so in order to provide a more enjoyable movie experience that doesn't require me to hope the other viewers remember to silence their phones.

This must be much more of a problem in some areas than it is in mine. My wife and I go to a movie pretty much every Friday night -- I doubt we miss more than four or five weeks per year -- and we have done for at least ten years. Call it 400 movies, to be conservative, some 800 hours sitting in the local theaters. In all that time, I can recall maybe four or five instances where a phone disturbed me, and only once was there a patron that carried on a lengthy conversation.

After about five minutes, I walked over and told the jerk that he was interrupting our movie. He flipped me off and started telling whoever he was talking to how rude I was, so I walked out and told the theater manager, who took him out of the theater. To make a long story short, he apparently threw a fit in the lobby so the manager ordered him to leave and never come back. He refused so the police came and cited him and very nearly arrested him before he wised up and stomped out. The manager apologized to me, thanked me and gave me a book of five free movie passes.

The incident was annoying (well, it was entertaining by the end), but the point is that was once in 800 hours. To me, that's no justification for blocking everyone.

Re:Uses

[SuiteSisterMary]

Too bloody bad. "On call" means "I need to be available," not "I get to inconvenience everybody around me so I can get around a requirement of the job I chose."

And yes, I'm an "on call" sort myself. And sometimes, that means I don't get to go out and do things. Boo hoo, that's kind of the point.

Re:Uses

[darkfire5252]

I have also not had many problems with cell phone users in movie theaters, and I would certainly agree that the mere fact that cell phones can potentially be annoying is justification for blocking the signal.

However, I would assert that the justification for a movie theater being allowed to use methods that prevent cell phones from working properly in the theaters is that the movie theaters themselves are private property, and thus the owner can set the terms and restrictions of their usage. My bet? Your movie theater's manager would not choose to spend the extra money to do so, and neither would the managers of the theaters I frequent, because it's not enough of a problem to warrant spending the money; I do believe that they would be well withing their rights to do so if they had the desire.

Re:Uses

[darkfire5252]

I would certainly agree that the mere fact that cell phones can potentially be annoying is justification for blocking the signal. Bah! Curse you, lack of proper sleep! I would agree that it is not justification.

Re:Uses

[swillden]

However, I would assert that the justification for a movie theater being allowed to use methods that prevent cell phones from working properly in the theaters is that the movie theaters themselves are private property, and thus the owner can set the terms and restrictions of their usage. My bet? Your movie theater's manager would not choose to spend the extra money to do so, and neither would the managers of the theaters I frequent, because it's not enough of a problem to warrant spending the money; I do believe that they would be well withing their rights to do so if they had the desire.

I'd agree with you that it's their right as long as they do it in a way that doesn't affect phones beyond their property, and I'd also agree that few, if any, would do it. Not only for the cost issue that you cite, but also for the potential annoyance to customers who would be both cut off and likely find their phone batteries drained. I know my phone, which lasts several days in normal use, can drain itself completely in just a few hours when in an area that it can't get a signal. If I walked into an RF-shielded theater with a half-charged battery I'd walk out with a dead battery.

Re:Uses

[swillden]

LOL. I didn't even notice the word was missing, and understood the sentence just as though the word were there.

Re:Uses

[EvilBudMan]

or cars

Re:Uses

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of who you are, it is not my responsibility to make sure you are available in case of an emergency. If you need to be available, it is your responsibility to adjust your behavior to increase the odds that you are available, given the provided situations you find yourself in.

But it is your responsibility to disable the phones of rude and obnoxious people?

If you want to take that on yourself, why not take a more direct route -- next time someone starts gabbing on the phone go take it away from them and toss it in the parking lot.

I always leave my cellphone on in the movie theater, so my kids can call if they need me. It's on vibrate, in an inside pocket where the light won't bother anyone, and I don't answer it. If it rings, I leave the theater (I always sit near the aisle so if I need to I can leave with minimal disturbance) and call back. It's a highly useful tool for me, and doesn't disturb anyone else.

In any case, theaters aren't going to install crap like this. It will bother too many of their patrons. For every childless, carefree person like you there are five who find it useful to keep their phones on during the movie, and any theater that makes their phones inoperable will see attendance decline dramatically.

I hope we meet in a dark theater some day.

I'll be the guy ramming your cell phone down your throat. I have been through Ranger training, and you had best believe I am capable of doing just that.

If you can't go to the movies without spoiling the experience for
others, then stay at home, and wait for it to come out on Netflix,
or be ready to get what you deserve.

YOUR RIGHTS END WHERE MINE BEGIN, ASSHOLE.

Re:Uses

[swillden]

I'll be the guy ramming your cell phone down your throat

Do you often accost random people and search them for electronic devices to force feed to them?

You've got some serious anger management issues.

Re:Uses

[LunaticTippy]

You'd be better off thinking about how to minimize risk from lightning strikes or fan-related injuries. Way more people are hurt every year by accidents than university gunman rampages. You should try to keep things in perspective. One or two high-publicity fatalities a month don't need a policy response.

Maybe we should ban cellphones while driving. That'll save thousands of lives every year.

There should be many applications for this

[zappepcs]

Think of a more efficient microwave oven. If it can scatter radar signals, it might just be a better coating for the inside of microwave ovens.

Then there is beamed power applications???

Perhaps this might lead to a method of shielding astronauts on their way to Mars? If it can deflect/scatter radar, can it be made to protect the Hubble?

There are literally thousands of applications where some shielding would be preferred to the current methods, especially in Military applications. I think that if he keeps it up, he might well help us discover how to shield from all manner of things. Shielding in Nuclear power plants is an issue that needs to be tackled better.

Imagine that if it can deal with radar, perhaps there is a way that this can lead to better coatings for fiber optic cables? 30Gbps not good enough for you? How would 100 Gbps with FTTH sound? It's all in how you deal with shielding.

Anything that is as thin as paint and does the job can lead to major improvements in many other things. I hope something really good comes of this and not just some Patriot Missle avoidance tactic.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[icegreentea]

I'm sorry, but I thought that radiation in a nuclear power plant was completely different from radio waves. Which is why the whole cellphone use causes cancer thing is silly. And why do microwaves need to scatter waves? I thought the whole point was to create a standing wave inside the microwave? I think your confusing EM radiation with ionizing radiation (which is what the problem in space is).

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Deadstick]

Think of a more efficient microwave oven. If it can scatter radar signals, it might just be a better coating for the inside of microwave ovens.

Antiradar paint does not scatter RF radiation. It absorbs it. If you coated the inside of a microwave oven with that stuff, it would (a) reduce the energy arriving at the food, and (b) heat up the walls of the oven, making your enchilada taste like burned paint.

You want the walls of the oven to reflect, not absorb.

rj

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Dr. Cody]

Shielding in Nuclear power plants is an issue that needs to be tackled better.

Actually, no, it isn't. I don't even think it's been an issue that needed to be tackled better within my lifetime. Nor would this help. 20 cm of rolled steel and 1.5 meters of reinforced concrete provides all the radiation protection you need until the pressure vessel ruptures.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the article, it is not known, at least by the guy that tested the paint, whether it absorbs or scatters the radar waves.

There is no other mention of this in the article to indicate how the paint works.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[camperslo]

Think of a more efficient microwave oven. If it can scatter radar signals

Chances are that if it works for stealth applications it is absorbing signals instead of scattering them. In the presence of very strong signals it would heat up if that is the case.
That could still have uses in a microwave oven though, more shielding for the door/cabinet, and perhaps coatings for containers where one would rather generate heat at the container level instead of in the food.
Perhaps this could make it easier to cook eggs in a microwave without having them explode?

Reduced microwave radiation would lessen disruption to 801.11b wireless networks since they operate in the same band.

The radiation from a nuclear power plant is ionizing radiation, much different from microwave radiation.

If the paint is somewhat flexible, it might be a good coating or ingredient for the outer jacket of shielded cables. That would be a very good thing considering how much people skimp on copper. Aluminum foil shields in cables help, but the combination of aluminum and copper makes it unattractive to recyclers later. It is best to stick with one metal.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why the whole cellphone use causes cancer thing is silly.

Yes, because there is only one mechanism in universe for causing cancer, which is ionizing radiation.

That whole study the other year concluding that electromagnetic radiation from cellphones can induce the activation of an ERK cascade which would then affect cell apoptosis and replication is clearly irrelevant. Since the only thing that can cause cancer is ionizing radiation.

Thank you random slashdotter for you contribution to making me feel better about my incessant cellphone usage.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[drinkypoo]

Actually, no, it isn't. I don't even think it's been an issue that needed to be tackled better within my lifetime. Nor would this help. 20 cm of rolled steel and 1.5 meters of reinforced concrete provides all the radiation protection you need until the pressure vessel ruptures.

Actually, you're 100% wrong, because there is the issue of contamination of the reactor containment vessel. When the plant is decommissioned this material will have to be disposed of somehow. If you can increase SAR of the material to the point where radiation penetrates to a lesser distance, then you don't need as thick a shield (1) which potentially reduces costs through reducing material use and the mass of the total structure (2) and it reduces the mass of the total waste at the time of decommissioning or refreshing of the containment vessel (3).

The cooling system is contaminated as well, and corrosion in the system results in radioactive contamination. So there are numerous places in which we could use new types of shielding.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[bendodge]

Why does a plant need to be decommissioned? The only reason I know if is tree-huggers suing or making it unprofitable to operate. I mean, concrete lasts a really long time, esp if you keep repairing it.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[drinkypoo]

Why does a plant need to be decommissioned? The only reason I know if is tree-huggers suing or making it unprofitable to operate. I mean, concrete lasts a really long time, esp if you keep repairing it.

Wow, that's pretty dumb. All things in this world are transient, you know. Or in simpler words, nothing lasts forever.

Anyway, every nuclear plant we have today (at least in the US) should be decommissioned, because they are all crap. But first we need to build some more modern designs.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Hucko]

There are substantial numbers of building that have been standing for longer than 50 - 60 years which is the projected lifetime of nuclear plants world wide. Sure, don't expect the buildings to last 1000 years, but 200 would be reasonable...

Re:There should be many applications for this

[cheesybagel]

The Pantheon in Rome was built in 125 AD, using concrete, and it is still standing. 1883 years seems good enough to me.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Anonymous Coward]

If there is no scatter then there can be no standing wave. Reflection is more or less just scatter.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but I thought that radiation in a nuclear power plant was completely different from radio waves. No. We're sorry. Lets have that geek card.

Re:There should be many applications for this

[barwasp]

Yes, its a great paint your intercontinental ballistic missiles

Re:There should be many applications for this

[drinkypoo]

I wasn't aware that the Pantheon was a nuclear reactor. That's pretty fascinating.

Energy = heat

[richkh]

So you have a plane or other object coated in paint that absorbs radar energy. The absorbed energy has to go somewhere, so it shows up as heat. The object is now warm and visible to IR sensors. I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to combine IR sensors with a radar array: if where you're aiming your radar transmitter is warming up, there's something there!

Re:Energy = heat

[Idiot with a gun]

Right, but even current (and comparatively primitive, I'm assuming) generation stealth aircraft are pretty resistant to IR sensors (which often lack range detecting ability). The coating doesn't have to necessarily absorb all the energy, it just has to throw it somewhere where the original sender won't pick it up.

Re:Energy = heat

[TransEurope]

Actally the energy of radar is very low, except you stand directly in front of the emitter. Or when was the last time you got cooked by the radar from the airport next to you? You must have really good sensors to detect such low heat. I assume the heat of computers and electronics on board of a plane or the exhausts of the turbines are the much bigger problem for the one doesn't want to be 'seen'.

Re:Energy = heat

[Ethan Allison]

Other anti-radar paints do this too. I doubt the hottest point of the airplane would be different if it "glowed" or not. Its exhaust is almost certainly hotter.

Re:Energy = heat

[nacturation]

One of the proposed explanations for how it works -- and exactly how it does work is not presently known -- is that it could be "a type of Jaumann absorber, which reflects incoming radar waves in such a way that they cancel each other out". The other way is some type of absorption. Also, do you have an idea of how much energy is put out by the typical radar? I'm guessing even if it fully absorbed 100% of the energy from the radar and converted it to heat, it would be so minuscule as to not matter.

Re:Energy = heat

[icegreentea]

A radar dish might put out a LOT of energy. But how much is that 10 kilometers away? Inverse-square law and all.

Re:Energy = heat

[mevets]

Do you really think the 'absorbed radar' will be hotter than the planes engines? mod -1 clueless.

Re:Energy = heat

[bugs longa]

I believe that these radar absorbing "paints", mostly containing ferrites, have been under development since WWII and use MIE scattering as their theoretical underpinning. I am puzzled that this is causing a buzz now, except that the work may not be classified and thus may be publically available. More interesting would be to know the bandwidth and Q of the paint and where the energy went after it had been "absorbed".

Kind of sort of.

[Idiot with a gun]

That's all good and stuff, but as mentioned, a lot of the radiation you're referring to has a very different wavelength/frequency than what it is currently known to block. And, in high-risk applications, toughness of the coating becomes an issue. What do you do when your nuclear power plant, or space ship, gets a scratch and begins leaking radiation?

Re:Kind of sort of.

[Hucko]

One would hope, that such applications would not be solely relying on the paint remaining intact for its entirety to provide protection but add Yet Another Layer of Protection (YALP) to the more robust and active systems available.

Pimp my Ride

[gelfling]

Will coat a flatscreen with it and mount it on an Escalade.

Re:Pimp my Ride

[uvajed_ekil]

Will coat a flatscreen with it and mount it on an Escalade.

I nearly found myself asking "why?" out loud, but then I realized asking why when the title was "Pimp my Ride" would just be futile. This might just be the ultimate anti-bling.

Stereotypes?

[Anonymous Coward]

How long will it take until someone associates the worm excrement thing to german pr0n?

Re:Stereotypes?

[Anonymous Coward]

As Phat Allen would say, "Foxxy, they oughta call you a German porn star's mouth. 'Cuz you full of shit."

Man, I miss Drawn Together.

a space opera oblig

[Scrameustache]

I felt the whole spice deal weakened the hard sci-fi goodness of what otherwise would have been a less fantastical book. You need unobtanium to go faster than light.
And you need to go faster than light to reach another planet while you're still young.

Re:a space opera oblig

[Anonymous Coward]

why is this a problem?

Oh you're thinking of you. Now put it this way - you need unobtanium to go FTL; and you need previous generations who worked hard to develop fast-enough interstellar travel to go there, get it, and kick-start a whole new technology.

its a sad start of affairs when the current generation wants everything, wants it now, and isn't happy to work towards it.

Doesn't everyone start that way?

[HangingChad]

he had bred a worm whose excrement made it possible to grow radishes in the dry desert sand.

And here I thought you always had to do a worm breeding apprenticeship before learning the radar absorbing paint trade. That's the way my college career councilor outlined it for me.

From TFA

[CopaceticOpus]

Nickel, who is literally bubbling over with ideas...

Oh, is he? Does he literally carry a pan around to catch them? Do they literally need to mop up behind him when he walks across the room?

Re:From TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, PBF has been discontinued. :-(

Re:From TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

Although converting each puddled liquid idea matrix into anything humans can understand will take another 22.63 years/liter.

I challenge you to a duel

[Anonymous Coward]

My choice of weapon is an AGM-114L Hellfire
missile with W-band seeker.

You get your armored vehicle of choice and as
much paint as you need.

Best two out of three.

civilian use

[tbischel]

"While it certainly is not unique, there is some interesting history behind the development, and a proposed civilian use."

Finally, something better looking than tin foil to cover my house (and my hat)!

That relies on cars that are ferro magnetic

[spineboy]

When the sensor imbedded in the road is triggered by the iron object moving across it, it generates a current. The trick is to get a car that is non ferromagnetic.

Re:That relies on cars that are ferro magnetic

[BungaDunga]

Or going really, really fast.

Or maybe the author is On LSD

[goombah99]

This radar absorbing paint sounds like horseshit to me. This guy must be on LSD.

When light hits a surface, it can be reflected, or transmitted. If' it's transmitted then it's going to go through the paint and strike the metal and be reflected.

The only way around this for a linear system is if all the following conditions are met
1) the paint absorbs
2) the paint has an index match to air that is perfect.
3) the absorption depth is on the scale of or larger than the wavelength.

If a material is strongly absorbing, ironically, it also becomes a better reflector due to the impedance mismatch. (air is not strongly absorbing). The only way to correct the impedance mismatch of the permativity is to also have a compensating change in the magnetic permiability. (For broadband absorbtion ferrites, for narrow band absorption maybe something else).

I don't think some thin paint layer can meet any of these.

It's conceivable non-linear materials could do the job but I don't thing there's enough energy in the radar pulse to activate such non-linearities.

I think this is bullshit

Re:Or maybe the author is On LSD

[Salus Victus]

When light hits a surface, it can be reflected, or transmitted. If' it's transmitted then it's going to go through the paint and strike the metal and be reflected.

What are you talking about? Matt Black paint, applied to a mirror, does not result in a surface that reflects visible light.

Paint can certainly absorb photons, and translate the energy to a wavelength no longer recognizable as related to the source.

How did the parent post get rated so highly? Has the Slashdot community fallen so far that it's blinded by the mere mention of "scientific" concepts like index of refraction?

Re:Or maybe the author is On LSD

[MadnessASAP]

What the fuck? Was that really you typing or did you just fling a few physics textbooks in a blender and post what came out of it? Asides from that I believe the peer poster has throughly refuted the somewhat legible aspects of your post, just thought I would add my own 2 cents.

Re:Or maybe the author is On LSD

[slashnot007]

When light hits a surface, it can be reflected, or transmitted. If' it's transmitted then it's going to go through the paint and strike the metal and be reflected. What are you talking about? Matt Black paint, applied to a mirror, does not result in a surface that reflects visible light. precisely my point. the black matte is many wavelengths thick in the visible. Radar has enormous wavelengths compared to the paint thickness. If black mat were 100th of a wavelenght thick then either 1) it would impedance match badly and therefore reflect 2) it would not be thick enough to absorb light.

Paint can certainly absorb photons, and translate the energy to a wavelength no longer recognizable as related to the source. duh. this is known in physics as "absorption".

How did the parent post get rated so highly? Has the Slashdot community fallen so far that it's blinded by the mere mention of "scientific" concepts like index of refraction? Maybe because I actually know what the hell I'm talking about?

Re:Or maybe the author is On LSD

[slashnot007]

Don't believe me? they reading Ramo, whinery and Van Duzer. Real EEs do.

Re:Or maybe the author is On LSD

[RatCommander]

Mod Parent up.

For more info, I would recommend "Radar Cross Section" by Knott et. al. It's a great book, with some good info on radar absorbtion.

drugs...

[mevets]

The drug import businesses will love this. This guy must be worth millions; if only he would shut up....

Naturally?

[Saberwind]

That project failed so he moved on to the next item on his agenda, naturally a radar absorbing paint.

Naturally. Because it's the logical next step after trying to grow radishes in worm excrement?

Re:Naturally?

[Anonymous Coward]

you-----------The Pacific Ocean---------------irony

MDs often get calls even when not on call

[spineboy]

I'm a surgeon, and patients are always trying to contact me, even when I'm not on call. Just because we work hard and make some money is no reason to say screw you, you can't be a person and enjoy life.

Sure some people are rude, but does a little cell phone ruin the entire movie for you? What about the people who insist on talking the whole time in the movie, or bring their crying kids?

I just don't see the fascination of people wanting to block cell phones - this topic comes up every month or so.

If someone is rude, just ask them to be quiet (oh no I'm a geek and can't talk to people), or else ask the usher to make them be quiet or leave. Draconian measures to enforce manners is somewhat silly, especially when it inconveniences so many other people..

I'm a surgeon, and I answer my call OUTSIDE

[spineboy]

I think this whole MD/cell phone/movie thing is really blown out of proportion. If I go to the theater and I'm on call, then I answer the call AFTER I've climbed out of my seat and left the theater.
Doctors who see patients compromise 0.03% of the population - thats 1/30 of one percent or 1 in 3,000 people. So maybe 1 out of 10 movies might contain an MD, if they see movies as often as the general populace, which I doubt.

Re:I'm a surgeon, and I answer my call OUTSIDE

[brian_tanner]

If I go to the theater and I'm on call, then I answer the call AFTER I've climbed out of my seat and left the theater. That's my point actually. With the shielding solution, you get "no service", so you can't know if you're being called, so you can't even go into the theatre. The requirement that you are available precludes you from stepping into the building.

Re:I'm a surgeon, and I answer my call OUTSIDE

[baggins2001]

Sorry, I mentioned Doctor's. I don't answer cell phones in the theatre either. I answer the call afer I get out of my seat and out of the theatre.
Geez, some people can't interpret that this is a euphamism for a mature individual that may actually have to stay in contact with their work.
A number of people here can't remember the good old days, where if you were on call you had to stay home to be near your phone. Oh and by the way you didn't get OT for this.

Re:Paint made from dead Jews, per German law

[Anonymous Coward]

funny, I thought they made it so that we can't see the kids in the basement.....

Is that paint ...

[PPH]

... available in "helicopter black"?

Not new, not even of this century

[Ancient_Hacker]

Radar absorbing paint isn't as exotic as it sounds. Basically it's paint that is "black" at radar frequencies. Nothing more than iron or ferrite filings in a Rustoleum base. Or better yet, go to an airshow for a free sample. The F-16's usually have some good RAP flaking off by the nosegear cover hinges.

The japanese have been painting RAP on their skyscrapers for decades now to lessen FM and TV ghosting.

Re:Not new, not even of this century

[HuskyDog]

Basically it's paint that is "black" at radar frequencies.

The fact that the main feature of the paint can be summarised in a pithy sentence does not mean that it is not exotic or hard to make. Example: "A time machine is just a gadget that lets you visit people from history". There, that was easy wasn't it!

Making an really militarily effective radar absorbing paint is very difficult. Why? Well, if we wish to attenuate a radio wave, we must absorb either the electric or the magnetic fields or both. Absorbing the electric field is easy with the aid of a resistive material, but there is a snag. Recall, that electric fields are always perpendicular to a conductor (e.g. the steel surface of our tank). If we attempt to absorb this field with a thin material such as paint then only a tiny portion of the field will be within the paint and there will be little effect (especially at lower frequencies). Returning to basic physics, we observe that the magnetic field is parallel to our conducting tank, and therefore much more likely to interact with our thin paint. Sadly, again, if we wish to attenuate magnetic fields we need something like iron filings (as has been suggested above) and plenty of them. This makes the paint extremely heavy (never mind stopping the iron filings from settling to the bottom of the tin!). It might just about to practical to cover a tank with such a paint, but a thick enough coat on a lighter vehicle will seriously slow it down, and for aircraft, which it always where the real stealth action is, it is completely impractical to use other than in very small amounts.

So, we can all mix iron filings into various resins and absorb some radar waves. The tough challenge is making it light enough to be useful, particularly on aircraft. I agree that in cases where weight doesn't matter (e.g. buildings) the problem is well understood. That is why EMC chambers designed for low frequency use are lined with ferrite tiles. The weight is terrific, but you just have to make the walls a bit stronger.

Now, I have no idea if this chap in the desert has managed to make a thin, light RAM paint which works well, but if he has he can expect some serious interest and money to be coming his way.

Re:Not new, not even of this century

[Ancient_Hacker]

The saving grace is you don't need much surface area coverage, just the edges and anything that might get perpendicular to the ground, and no real VOLUME of metal. Hair-thin wires and tiny glass beads with ion-flashed metal work just fine. Weight is not a problem.

Low frequency radar always works

[ka9dgx]

The F117 was retired early because all of the stealth tech in the world can't protect you from obsolete LOW frequency radar. If you use wavelengths that are significantly longer than the thickness of the paint, it's really not going to do anything to stop the underlying airframe from sending back a nice strong signal.

If you want to avoid getting your transmitter killed, just use a local FM or TV station and make it a passive radar system.

--Mike--

What would be cool...

[blueZ3]

I think all the cell phone manufacturers should get together and agree on a new "notification state" standard. Basically, all cell phones should listen for a (bluetooth) signal that tells them they're in a "quiet zone" and switch to vibrate mode while they're in range of the signal.

This resolves: the annoyance of phones ringing right when Jar-Jar Binks is about to be killed by Darth Sidious, the "danger" of missing a call because you turned your phone off, and the likelihood that some folks will forget to turn their phone ringers off.

Civilian use...

[polarapfel]

I know perfectly well what my favored civilian use for that kind of paint would be... I'm gonna paint... MY CAR! :-) Bye bye highway patrol...

Uhm, yeah, please go RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

in particular, the last paragraph or so.