Free (As In Speech) Beer, V2.0

AgentPaper writes "Three years ago we discussed an open source brewing project in which a Danish brewer made his beer recipes available for public consumption and alteration. The concept has taken off, first with the 'Free Beer Project' in Denmark and now with Flying Dog's 'Collaborator' Doppelbock in the US, which was created via input from home brewers across the world. One version of the Collaborator is commercially brewed and available for purchase (and is darned tasty), but you can download the same recipe and labels, brew it yourself, and submit your mods back to the project."

Comments

Missed half the point!

[BadAnalogyGuy]

It's fine and dandy to have Free (as in Speech) Beer, but I would certainly be better off with Free (as in Beer) Beer.

Free beer is only free if your time is worth nothing.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Xiph]

When you make it yourself, it's close to half price of regular beer and often the result is better. For the experienced brewer often becomes almost always.

When you brew beer commercially, it becomes very important to make same beer every time, and to make something which easy to consume.
The consumer beer is lighter (in colour and taste), because that's what you can drink in large quantities.

If you want beer full of flavour, the price goes up, or you have to make it yourself.

Re:Missed half the point!

[tgatliff]

I have made beer for many years (extract and all grain), and I can tell you that most real ales and lagers, the best you can do is about break even. Meaning, on the high end side of beers, you can do allot better because their transportation costs kill them, but for many of the domestic beers its very close... I will admit that all grain brewing is cheaper than extract, but... Well you get my point...

Anyway, the reason I still brew my own beer is simply because I think the quality is better, just as I think OSS is as well. Most import beers ae oxidized quite heavily by the time you get them, just as with most commercial software (Vista comes to mind here) is as well, but if you brew it completely on your own, especially with natural carbonation, then that living beer can last for at least a decade. For OSS, it actually is allot longer... :)

Re:Missed half the point!

[oliderid]

Well it all depends of the beer we are talking about. If you meant pils you are right. I'm personnally a fan of trappist beers (orval, chimay) or abbey beer such as Leffe. All are quite heavy (6% to 9% I think). Sure it costs slightly more but I don't drink much (one per week) anyway.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Nitewing98]

Mom always taught me that anything you could buy at the store or a restaurant could be made cheaper at home. In the late 60's and early 70's I watched her make cheese, can jelly and pickles, bake bread, and try winemaking.

Because of that, I sometimes bake bread, love to cook, and have started making my own pickles.

I think the idea of applying the FOSS method to recipes is brilliant!

Re:Missed half the point!

[cp.tar]

I think the idea of applying the FOSS method to recipes is brilliant!

Especially since the idea of FOSS comes from recipes.

My father and my grandparents also can various foodstuffs at home, and the quality is vastly superior to anything you can buy in a store.
But it takes quite a bit of time.

Re:Missed half the point!

[timmarhy]

eh, only break even? what the hell are you brewing with? hops for a single brew cost about $8, grain costs about $10 ( 5kgs). add in about $4 for CO2 and gas. that's $22 (AUD) for 20L of beer. in real terms that's a bit over 2 slabs which would normally cost up to $60 - $80.

there is an initial outlay, lets be generous and say you got a keg system with 2 kegs a filter CO2 regulator and all the bits and pieces. you can pick those up on ebay for $400. that gear would pay for itself after 10.5 batches. thats not even taking into account the fact you can resell the equipment later on, and most probably recoup 60% or better of the cost (kegs go up in price, not down)

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

>the best you can do is about break even.

How do you figure? Even with extract kits it's cheaper.... Go to Norther Brewer and look at their extract ale kits ( http://www.northernbrewer.com/alekits.html) They're all in the $25 to $35 range. I'll avg it at $30 for a kit, it makes 2 cases of beer. That's $15/case. You go to a store and get decent beer it's $15/12-pack. (roughly...most beers are in the $7.xx range for a six pack)

Re:Missed half the point!

[morgan_greywolf]

The consumer beer is lighter (in colour and taste), because that's what you can drink in large quantities. Yeah, for the most part, but that depends greatly on the brand. Sam Adams makes beers that are much closer in quality to so-called "microbrews": they're far darker, richer and more full-bodied than your typical Budwater^H^H^H^H^Hweiser, Miller, etc. I'm especially fond of their October Fest brew, which is only available about 3 months out of the year.

Re:Missed half the point!

[PopeRatzo]

My wife, who grew up in a Communist Eastern European country (yes, I bought her on the internet) spent most of her life with food and drink that is made at home. As an American IdiotTM, I grew up suspicious of any food that didn't come wrapped in plastic or aluminum.

I can even remember as a kid, wanting to go to McDonalds and my mom saying "I'll make you a nice hamburger here at home" and I'd be really upset because I preferred a skinny, greasy Golden Arches meat cookie to the fat, lovely fresh burger my mom would make. Needless to say, there's not much I wouldn't give for another burger (or anything else) made by my mom.

I can tell you, after the years I've spent married, that's changed. When I have that deep gnawing need for sustenance, I go look for an unlabeled jar in the basement first. There are few things edible or drinkable that I'm not certain could be done better at home, with love, than in a factory by workers in white overalls and hairnets.

Have you ever had home made root beer or fig preserves? Just thinking about all these things has me drooling on myself as I sit here at 7am.

Re:Missed half the point!

[kaizokuace]

They don't have to cost that much more though. The last batch I did was 12 lbs of various light grains, which ran something like $20. The hops was like 5 bux (used a low alpha acid combo of Mt hood and hallertau), the yeast was a few more bux and it has come out to be a very light tasting belgian type. It hit around 8.2% abv by the time we finished secondary. So under $30 for what my friends decided as a "chimay you can keep drinking".

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well over here we pay like 6 EUR/10 AUD for a crate with 10 Litres of drinkable beer, double the price if you want a 10 Litres of really good beer. And thats after the prices rose by over 30%. Its hard to even reach the break even. The only reason to really brew yourself is for the taste. Selfmade Beer is always better. Thanks, Mr. Placebo ;)

But the next best thing to brewing yourself is taking a brewery tour, free beverages and food, yay :) And all that 20 Minutes away ^^

Re:Missed half the point!

[kaptron]

I've found this thread interesting because I've always been interesting in looking into home brewing; but I just wanted to interject that as an American living in Australia the prices for buying beer from a store here are drastically different (as in more expensive).

A slab -- or a case, or 24-pack -- of mainstream American beer (Budweiser, Coors, etc) can be bought for US$15, and even a microbrew might still only be $25 at somewhere like Costco. So 2 slabs would only be in the $30-50 range (rough estimate, it's been a while). And my German friends here, among others, have had the same reaction to the beer prices as they're used to having it be much cheaper as well.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with your math but that it would have to be a different calculation if you were using beer prices from somewhere else.

Re:Missed half the point!

[paanta]

I agree that it's cheaper, but only if you drink a fair amount of beer and if you're not factoring in your time. It's a couple of hours of work to brew a 5 gallon batch, which with what I value my time, is a fair amount of money. Factor in the 10 square feet of floor area in my house taken up by all my brewing crap, at say $15/sf/yr. And the time spent reading about brewing. And worrying about every batch like it's my child. And the electricity used by your kegerator.

On the other hand, it's damn hard to find a better beer than what you make at home. Perhaps other homebrewers have had the experience of drinking almost solely their own beer for a year or two, then going somewhere and having a beer you used to think was the bee's knees only to find it a flavorless, depressing swill. Or going somewhere and drinking a beer that you used to find good-but-overwhelming (Dogfish Head 90 minute?) and finding it a whole lot more easy to drink.

Re:Missed half the point!

[malsdavis]

You must have been using some expensive extract. I've been 'homebrewing' for years and must have saved a small fortune during that time. I've even made some cash a few times selling the odd gallon to mates and such. I sometimes use grain but most of the time I just use malt extract because I'm lazy.

All in all I reckon an average batch using purchased extract costs me around half that of the same amount of averaged-priced beer. A massive saving for someone who drinks as much beer as I do!

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a couple of hours of work to brew a 5 gallon batch, which with what I value my time, is a fair amount of money. Its a hobby, if you dont enjoy it dont do it. Time is valuable but if you go through life punching a virtual timecard you will be miserable in the end.

Re:Missed half the point!

[tgatliff]

Listen, we might looking at this for a different perspective... Can you make beer cheap??? Absolutely.... Can you do that to match the exact quality of a true premium... That is allot harder...

Realistically, from my experience to get the same quality and consistency of true premium ales/lagers there are allot of things required. Excluding lagers, the cost of yeast starter prep work, mash tuns, water purifying/ph correction/mineral corrections... Even with ales you must keep the at the optimum fermentation range of 65F during the entire primary ferment. This takes equipment, time, and cost which all most be figured in. Also, keep in mind that the cost of time is a big one. Also, it must spend several weeks in the secondary being monitored for clarity, and depending on the type of grain might need additional clarification related items/procedures. Once again... Time and Expense... Third, the time and expense to bottle as I general do not like artificial CO2 because for most premiums it alters the unique living beer taste... I could go on, because I hope you are seeing my point... Making beer is easy... Making true high end beers (which is where the true savings is) is not...

In short... I do this because I do believe it makes a difference and I appreciate the added quality of taste, but I really do not pretend by saying that I save money by doing it. I am constantly reminded with the amount of equipment, and the space it takes up, that saving much money is unlikely...

Re:Missed half the point!

[tgatliff]

Listen, we might looking at this for a different perspective... Can you make beer cheap??? Absolutely.... Can you do that to match the exact quality of a true premium... That is allot harder...

Realistically, from my experience to get the same quality and consistency of true premium ales/lagers there are allot of things required. Excluding lagers, the cost of yeast starter prep work, mash tuns, water purifying/ph correction/mineral corrections... Even with ales you must keep the at the optimum fermentation range of 65F during the entire primary ferment. This takes equipment, time, and cost which all most be figured in. Also, keep in mind that the cost of time is a big one. Also, it must spend several weeks in the secondary being monitored for clarity, and depending on the type of grain might need additional clarification related items/procedures. Once again... Time and Expense... Third, the time and expense to bottle as I general do not like artificial CO2 because for most premiums it alters the unique living beer taste... I could go on, because I hope you are seeing my point... Making beer is easy... Making true high end beers (which is where the true savings is) is not...

In short... I do this because I do believe it makes a difference and I appreciate the added quality of taste, but I really do not pretend by saying that I save money by doing it. I am constantly reminded with the amount of equipment, and the space it takes up, that saving much money is unlikely...

Re:Missed half the point!

[CastrTroy]

Not if you live in Canada. Here in Ontario, the cheapest 24 is $24. Anything remotely decent costs $30 for a 24. Most good beers are at least $35. A case of Guinness costs about $50, last time I checked.

Re:Missed half the point!

[CastrTroy]

Can you still qualify as a microbrewery if you do enough volume to sell at Costco?

Re:Missed half the point!

[CastrTroy]

My Grandfather used to make homemade rootbeer. From what I remember it was quite a bit better than the store bought stuff. We also make a lot of home made food, that most people would just get out of a can. Home made soups and sauces taste quite a bit better than what you get at the store, and are a lot more healthier. Even the low sodium soups at the store contain more salt than most people would put in a home made soup. Real home made food just tastes a lot better. Sadly, I think a lot of people don't realize, or forget just how much better home cooking is.

Re:Missed half the point!

[tgatliff]

Yes, I know that the home brewing community is Canada is allot larger than in the US, which I really think it neat.

I heard in the news that California is considering an alcohol tax increase, so I suspect as the US economy continues to turn sour, that other states will increase their taxes as well... I am not a big fan of adding taxes, but it would nice if there were "incentives" to help foster more of a home brewing community in the US... Right now probably 85% of the people who do it just do it a couple of times and give up.. Its kind of sad actually...

Re:Missed half the point!

[JimCDiver]

You can buy good beer in a store in Ontario? The mega swill factories own the beer store and make it night impossible for real beer to get offered there. Then the gubberment owns the liquor store and seem to only stock 307857646 brands of the same pre-sunked euro lager. I guess in behind all the crappy euro lagers you'll find the odd gem, special edition, seasonal offering. Like a hidden Lug Tread, Chimay or Brutal Bitter that didn't sell out 13.8 seconds after hitting the shelf.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

By my count you have misused the word allot seven times in comments to this story alone. Could you please switch to the two-word expression "a lot"? It would make your posts much more pleasant to read.

Re:Missed half the point!

[gosand]

When you make it yourself, it's close to half price of regular beer and often the result is better. For the experienced brewer often becomes almost always.

When you brew beer commercially, it becomes very important to make same beer every time, and to make something which easy to consume.
The consumer beer is lighter (in colour and taste), because that's what you can drink in large quantities.

If you want beer full of flavour, the price goes up, or you have to make it yourself.

It's sad that people still think of that ice-cold-piss-water served by the major brewers as "beer". I've always respected the home-brewers, and thought about getting into it a couple of times... but just haven't. I don't really need or have time for any hobbies like that. The idea of making a tasty dark beer is very appealing... but there are so many choices out there, and I still haven't tried them all. :)

Good beer isn't that expensive. 7 or 8 dollars if you want to try a 6-pack, cheaper if you get a 12-pack. That's $1.35 per beer. The way I figure it, that's like going to a bar and buying 2 beers, and I don't go out to bars that much anymore. I know a guy who drinks Miller Lite... he drinks a lot of it. I drink all kinds of "expensive" beers, but I don't pound down 6 of them a night. We're probably spending the same amount of money on beer, and while he may be getting drunker, I really enjoy mine. Could I save a few dollars by home brewing? Maybe.. but let's not forget all the "learning" batches, the time it takes, and the waiting! Oh, the waiting!

go-tos are Becks, St.Pauli Girl, Warsteiner, Newcastle, Grolsch, and a variety of dark beers. Youngs Oatmeal Stout and Chocolate Stout are hard to beat.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

People like you spend allot of time worrying about grammar. I would recomend that your do something better with you're time.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Ford Prefect]

Get yerself some Rochefort - especially the 10. Yes, it's stupidly strong, but you're definitely not supposed to gulp it down like cheap lager. It's gorgeous on a cold winter's night, around Christmas...

I'd go on to recommend other Belgian Trappist beers of note, but the answer is basically 'all of them'. I've still to find any Westvleteren, but I think that'll involve a special trip to the brewery...

(Note: I live in Belgium, so I can get weird beers that Americans lust after down at my local supermarket, really cheaply. And I get money back on returning the bottles. Brilliant!)

Re:Missed half the point!

[Ford Prefect]

I think his point was more that if he were to figure out how much it all cost, it definitely wouldn't be 'good value' on purely monetary terms - but the fact that he's "worrying about every batch like it's [his] child" suggests that maybe, just maybe, he's enjoying it immensely already?

Re:Missed half the point!

[siwelwerd]

Where can you get grain for $1 a pound? I can't get it anywhere near that cheap--do you buy in bulk or something? Also, throw on top of that a $10 package of yeast, not to mention cleaning/sanitizing supplies. I tend to spend $50-$60 on a batch, though I could probably get that down some if I ever made a beer with an OG of under 1.050.

Re:Missed half the point!

[oliderid]

I'm Belgian ;-) Concerning a good beer around christmas...What about a Maredsous, the cheese of the same name and a baguette? Or if the winter is too harsch a good Rochefort 10 and a onions soups with melting cheese. Oh God...I feel a bit of nostalgia...Miss my native ardennes.

Re:Missed half the point!

[nakajoe]

Like all hobbies, it takes time, but you can sure save money, and can also make beer every bit as good as commercial offerings. Of course it takes skill to make really great beer, but it's very doable. Money-wise, I haven't spent a cent on equipment in over a year, and have probably spent $100 on grain, $30 on hops, $20 on CO2, and $40 on propane. For a YEAR, drinking 2-3 glasses per day. I ferment underground, or in a closet where the temp is already ok. I bought yeast once and only once, a couple years ago. An important note to this is that I have a limited range of styles I make, and that does help keep costs down. I call BS on the carbonation thing. CO2 from a tank does not in any way change the flavor of a beer. If you under-age it because the keg can carbonate faster, that most certainly can affect things though. I quit bottling everything except mead and some really strong stuff (and then only a few bottles meant for a year or two down the road) due to time considerations quite some time ago, and I'll tell you it tastes the same.

Re:Missed half the point!

[nizo]

Though unlike stamp collecting your brewing hobby can get you drunk. But I suppose if you ate enough stamps the glue might cause some kind of hallucinatory experience.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Shagg]

Are you talking US dollars? Where do you shop, those prices sound really high. I don't think I've ever spent $50 - $60 for a batch. Even extract brewing is cheaper than that.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

Root beer, no I haven't tried home made. Fig preserves, yes! Yum... I can't think of anything that goes better with really good brie cheese than a smear of good home made fig preserves. Seriously. Have you tried that? Spread a big chunk of brie on a piece of crisp bread, then smear on some fig. Wow. Good thing lunch is near, my guts are grumbling from thoughts of food.

My grandmother (departed, lived to 101) and her sister used to put up a basement full of canned fruit and vegetables. Their canned peaches were fantastic. Completely different sensation than fresh, but totally delicious, particularly on a nasty day in the middle of winter. Commercial canned peaches just do not compare.

Ah, Grandma and Auntie, you ruined us for commercial food with your home cooked goodness.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Shagg]

Yeah, it's a hobby. You should be doing it because you enjoy it. Saving money is just a nice side benefit.

However, if homebrewing is costing you more than commercial beer, you must be doing something wrong. It should be a lot cheaper, even factoring in equipment costs over time, etc.

Re:Missed half the point!

[whipping_post]

Buying in bulk does bring grain down to $1-$1.25/pound. I can even get premium imported malts for $60 for a 50 pound sack.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Deagol]

I heartily second this sentiment.

Not only are home-prepared foods a huge leap in quality over pre-fab foods, but home-raised foods take it yet another notch.

For example, even when the cabbage is not home-grown, sour kraut made from fresh cabbage from the store is phenomenally more tasty than the dead crap that comes in a jar/can on the grocer shelf. If you're not only bold, but also daring, pack a batch of kraut which is 1 part red cabbage to 3 parts white. The color and flavor after a month in the crock will knock your socks off.

One of these days I'll have to try my hand at home-made kimchi. Granted, the stuff you typically find at the store is still alive and "fresh" (insert Homer Simpson drool), but I can only imagine that home-made stuff would be far, far better. :)

Let's give a big cheer for fermented foods!

Re:Missed half the point!

[Shagg]

Could I save a few dollars by home brewing? Maybe.. but let's not forget all the "learning" batches, the time it takes, and the waiting! Oh, the waiting!

I always say that the most difficult thing to learn about brewing is patience. ;)

Find a homebrew club in your area, or just a local brewer (most of them are really friendly and happy to help out a beginner), and it will cut way down on the learning curve. It's really not that difficult to make beer as good as or better than anything you can buy in the store (even the more expensive stuff). The best place to start, if you're interested, is http://www.howtobrew.com/

Re:Missed half the point!

[siwelwerd]

At a local homebrew store (here, if you're curious: http://www.wineandbeermaking.com/). A 3 lb bag of DME will run $13-14. So 7 lbs of DME ($33), a bit of hops ($5-10), yeast ($8 or so), maybe a few speacialty grains ($2-5) and I'm up to $50 easy. That doesn't factor in the things I don't buy every batch either (e.g. PBW, starsan, corn sugar, bottle caps).

Re:Missed half the point!

[siwelwerd]

Do you buy your specialty grains in bulk too? I don't brew near enough volume (I think I'm on 20 gallons so far this year) to go through 50 pounds of anything other than a base malt, and then I like to use different base malts for different styles, so it's hard for me to see how I could use 50 lbs of any one grain in a reasonable amount of time.

Re:Missed half the point!

[This Rhino Flies]

...living in Germany, as my home brew meister says, you can do lots of things wrong, but you almost always get beer, and its almost always better homebrewed. We are brewing from grain though, so I don't know how it is with extracts. Ryan

Re:Missed half the point!

[poopdeville]

Sure, but this story does not belong on Slashdot. Just because some nerds decided to put "Open Source" on the recipe doesn't negate years of freely available beer recipes.

Re:Missed half the point!

[canajin56]

It's hardly slower, either. Put some bones in a Crock Pot overnight, strain them out in the morning and dump some vegitables, meat, and barley or lentils in there. When you come home from work you have 4 nights of soup for two people, at least. More if you have a bigger pot than the 3.5q pot I have. In fact, a slow cooker is the single greatest invention of all time. Chili, 15 minutes: Empty cans of corn, beans, more beans, tomatoes, dice an onion and a bell pepper or two into there, dice a jalapeno or two, sprinkle some spices in real quick,add a squirt of lime juice (or a whole lime sliced up), drop some stewing beef (or ground beef if you hate freedom and justice, I suppose), and when you get back from work, greatest chili of all time, way better than Stagg crap. You can make it tropical by adding a (drained) can of diced pineapple, or dicing a kiwifruit or two. Sounds odd but goes suprisingly well! Don't forget to make your own corn muffins, they cook in only 15 minutes!

Home made pizza dough has like 1/10 the fat that the impossibly greasy "reduced fat" pizza crusts do! I had a recipe that was still lower fat and used like 1/4 cup of olive oil in there. Then I discovered 1/8 instead changes nothing. Then 1 tbsp also doesn't make it dryer or less tasty. Also as high as 1 part whole wheat to 3 parts white flour is beneith notice, but adds more fibre! Use skim cheese which also tastes the same when melted on a pizza, and you're all set. I make a pizza that, while the same size as a McCain frozen monstrosity, weighs almost twice as much but costs $1 less and is so much lower fat, it's rediculous! Between two people it's food enough for several meals. Two slices fills you right up. You could probably be full from 1 if you had more salad...

I used to make homemade rootbeer, but the stores around here have stopped selling the mix. I suppose I could mix nutmeg and allspice and whatever other spices usually go in there, try it myself, but that might go poorly ;) Plus I've lost my barrel and empty bottles in the move... But it's mighty tasty, hearty, and only like .5% alcohol. Cheap, too. At least in Canada where there isn't a collosal tax on refined sugar. I dunno, it might be pretty crappy with corn syrup instead of sugar, or it might be fine.

It's probably how I was brought up. My parents never made frozen crap (other than frozen peas), and occationally, OCCATIONALLY, frozen fries instead of vegitable sticks or just plain potato chips, when we had burgers. Frozen paties? Never. Putting some spices and some oats into extra lean ground beef is cheaper, and even lean instead of extra lean, is rediculously lower fat than whatever grade FFF meat they make that crap out of.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Kirijini]

"Becks, St.Pauli Girl, Warsteiner, Newcastle, Grolsch..."

Sorry, but I gotta say that you're going for imports that just aren't better than a lot of domestic brews. Try beers from Dogfish Head, Lagunitas, He-brew or Left Hand - they're nationally available "microbrews." I don't think of them as micro so much as "not mega." There's also a lot of good regional micros.

If you want to go imports, I think you're better off with mass-produced Belgians, like Hoegaarden or Leffe. German beer is also good, but not when you include Becks or Warsteiner. Get Bitburger instead, or Franziskaner or Optimator. Newcastle is good - brown ales in general are always worthwhile.

You're right - spending between 7 and 9 dollars for a six pack is about right if your goal is to have fun rather than get wasted.

Re:Missed half the point!

[tgatliff]

I agree it is a balance.. It would appear that your interests are more lended towards cost, which I definitely can respect that... In fact, that is what I enjoy the most about the beer making community versus the wine making community....

As far as the artificial carbonation... Try this one time.. Buy a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and any other decent Pale Ale you like, and compare the taste of the two. You will notice with the SN that it has a very distinct yeasty flavor to it, which many beer "snobs" (including me I guess), say helps bring out the subtle flavors in the beer better... Meaning, I generally miss the subtle yeasty bite in my beer.. Also, I enjoy the fact that the yeast prevents oxidation as well, and keeps the beer fresh for 5 to 8 years on average. High gravity beers can be stored even longer than that...

Keep in mind that for me, tasting different beers I enjoy much more than drinking. In fact, I only typically drink 2 to 3 beer a week.... :)

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, homebrewing often leads to Free Beer for friends, cow-orkers, family, etc. Once you get the brewing bug, you can easily end up brewing at a faster rate than you drink.

Then you get a girlfriend and she helps you drink, so your input-output rates start to match. Everything is going fine.

Then she gets excited about the hobby and starts to brew. Now you've got even more beer to spread around. D'oh!

Re:Missed half the point!

[dzfoo]

You mispelld grammer.

        -dZ.

Re:Missed half the point!

[gstoddart]

We also make a lot of home made food, that most people would just get out of a can. Home made soups and sauces taste quite a bit better than what you get at the store, and are a lot more healthier. Even the low sodium soups at the store contain more salt than most people would put in a home made soup. Real home made food just tastes a lot better. Sadly, I think a lot of people don't realize, or forget just how much better home cooking is.

A lot of people have never had good, home made food. I've seen a tremendous amount of kids who won't eat anything that isn't chicken fingers and fries. I also know a lot of adults who won't eat any form of 'ethnic' food since they have no exposure to all of the yummy flavors out there and don't want to try it.

People have become accustomed to boring, packaged food which is full of sodium and other chemicals. I remember as a kid being at scout camp and my dad made spaghetti -- to all of the kids who had only eaten Chef Boy R Dee, the small amount of spices in the spaghetti sauce was too much for them.

I cook most of what gets eaten in our home (my GF loves it since she has a private chef), and packaged food just doesn't hold a candle to what a good home cook can do -- both in terms of cost and flavor.

Westerners born in the last 20 or so years have a very limited palette and no adventure when it comes to food. Let alone an interest or understanding of actually making their own food.

Cheers

Re:Missed half the point!

[CastrTroy]

I think by westerners, you really mean people in the United States. My dad travels to the US a lot for work, and he very surprised at how often many of the people eat at restaurants. Some people eat out 4-5 nights a week. Some only do home cooking 1 night a week, if that. In Canada, most people I know prepare meals from some basic ingredients, although a lot of time it's frozen french fries and canned soup. You still don't see a lot of people who eat out (or order in) every night. Most people I know like ethnic food, and really don't have a problem with lots of flavour. Although I do see things going the direction they currently are in the US.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Pescar]

My dad in britain has been brewing his own beer for around 2 years, and it works out for him at around 10p per pint.

I have no idea where you lot (or him) are getting ingredients, but his larger always tastes pretty alright

Re:Missed half the point!

[Sloppy]

what the hell are you brewing with? hops for a single brew cost about $8, grain costs about $10 ( 5kgs).

Homebrewers (at least using my supply chains) are paying $3 to $7 per oz of hops, and $1.60-$2.20 per pound of grain.

$8 for hops? Well, ok, that's realistic as long as you're not making any APA/IPAs.

$10 for grains? No way, unless you're making some really weak session beers. Not anything wrong with that, but your $18 recipe just doesn't sound very fun, either.

My next batch that I'm doing Wednesday night, is approximately $18 for the hops (1 oz Galena for bittering and a luxurious 4 oz of pretty cheap Ahtanum to finish, because I want to really learn what the hell this cheap hop smells/tastes like), $15 for 7 lb of Fawcett Halcyon, $9 for a couple pounds of Munton's xl DME, and $6 for Wyeast 1098 (though that yeast will be amortized over 3 batches) that I have growin' on the stir plate right now.

If I were all-grain, I could save a bit on the malt (extract is expensive) but even if I used the cheapest malt I can find (Rahr 2-row), I'd want at least 10 pounds, and that's a $16 malt bill right there.

I'll also be running my gas stove for a couple hours. I never computed what that really costs, but it's got to be something.

Anyway, that batch'll work out to about $1 per bottle. I'm not complaining though, since that's still a pretty good deal for a very flavorful beer (heh heh, 4 oz of finishing hops!! :-). I still can't buy any really good APAs that cheap. But I sure don't feel like I'm really saving any serious money.

Wow, I still can't believe you said $10 for grains. You must be old! ;-)

Re:Missed half the point!

[Sloppy]

you're not factoring in your time. It's a couple of hours of work to brew a 5 gallon batch, which with what I value my time, is a fair amount of money.

Wait a minute. We're talking about a hobby, here. Factoring in the cost of your time to brew, is like factoring in the cost of your time to drink it! ("Dammit, that pint took me 20 minutes to drink! The cost just went up $n bucks per pint!")

The reason people factor in the cost of their time for certain activities (e.g. labor) is because it's an opportunity cost. Time working for your employer, is time that you can't spend on your own life, e.g. brewing. You can't charge yourself for you own life, though. There's no opportunity cost, because you're doing what you want.

Re:Missed half the point!

[gstoddart]

I think by westerners, you really mean people in the United States.

Well, I mean "North Americans" I guess more accurately. I can't speak to Europeans other than the old stereotype of the English eating boiled everything. ;-)

I know a lot of Canadians which fall into the category of people who only eat a very limited set of foods. Heck, a co-worker had an old class-mate visiting with his wife -- she was the most fussy eater you could imagine, she had a categorical that she wouldn't eat food that had "sauce" on it -- which to me is most foods. In a group of adventurous eaters who would rather do Indian, Thai, Chinese, or whatever, her fussiness and willingness to literally only eat the most boring of food was appalling. She wouldn't even eat Italian food!! I've had co-workers for whom anything outside of that very proscribed "Canadian Food" is cause for great consternation.

I don't have any valid statistics on it, but I almost wonder if the people who do like 'ethnic' food tend to dine out more and fill in the gaps. I dine out at least once/week, and I definitely gravitate to more exotic foods.

I know a lot of Canadians for whom a dish with black pepper is "spicy" and things like curries, or stir-fries, or anything a little off their narrow range is an absolute no no. Something which I completely don't get.

I was actually stunned when the kids of one of my brothers friends gladly tore into a curry I had made, and we're talking 5 and 7 year olds. Apparently they'd been fed exotic food from a young age and were completely fearless eaters.

Most of the people I personally know are some of the most adventurous eaters I've ever met. But, a few (significant) exceptions are completely unsophisticated in their food choices.

Cheers

Re:Missed half the point!

[sumdumass]

It seems that break even is a local term. Here in the US, we can a keg of beer for around $60 and a $10 refundable deposit. That would be around 58-59 liters in comparison. Generally, the dark flavorful beers (domestic of course) that someone would likely be attempting to make would only add around $5-$10 to the cost of a keg. A 24-12 once case of beer costs around $15 which is equivalent to around 8.5 liters in comparison. A six pack of the same 12oz containers goes for around $5 or so. Two cases and a six pack would be really close to the 20 liters your mentioning and only costing at around $40 for easy to manage carry out packaged beer. This isn't the cheap beer either, this is the higher end consumer level bud and bud light type of beers. We have some brands that average 20%-30% less in costs too. But I figured on keeping the popular brands costs would be a more fair comparison.

I saw another post about in the UK area being cheaper too. I used to brew beer for the sake of brewing it. I'm not sure why I stopped, it has been so long ago. But I would say that just doing something with your own hands and watching it turn out good is satisfying enough for most people. I guess if your not in an area with high beer prices, you would have to grow your ingredients yourself to save money. But even then, I'm not sure if you would save anything once you start including your time. But then again, it would all depend on where your at and the cost of what you have available.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Ford Prefect]

Oi! Stop making me feel hungry!

(Speaking of cheese, I actually do have a chunk of Orval cheese in my fridge right now. Hooray!)

Re:Missed half the point!

[CastrTroy]

Oh, I know those people too. It's not really the norm though. I would say that it's common enough that almost everybody knows 3 or 4 people who are picky eaters. But when trying to make dinner plans with 10 people, it's usually just the one that's picky.

Re:Missed half the point!

[ahoehn]

Sadly, I think a lot of people don't realize, or forget just how much better home cooking is. Forget better (which it is, so long as you're comparing it to fast/frozen/in-a-can food and not The French Laundry), home cooking is funner. I'm surprised that there's not more crossover in the geek/cook arenas.

Cooking has everything that geeks should love: complex gadgets, arcane knowledge and the ability to hold a skill over the heads of the general population.

Given the time, I'd love the chance to make nearly everything for myself. Thus far the only DIY food that I haven't been able to make better than the commercially available version is Root Beer. Every batch I've come up with tastes like sweet fizzy bread dough. But I'll persevere.

Re:Missed half the point!

[gstoddart]

Oh, I know those people too. It's not really the norm though. I would say that it's common enough that almost everybody knows 3 or 4 people who are picky eaters. But when trying to make dinner plans with 10 people, it's usually just the one that's picky.

And, buggers it up for everyone else as they're stuck in a venue which only serves bland food you can get anyplace.

Than again, as a vegetarian, I guess I occasionally get to be the fly in the ointment to be sure that there's something I can eat. Steak houses and seafood places often have nothing whatsoever on the menu I can eat. :-P

Cheers

Re:Missed half the point!

[Reziac]

Indeed, here is a good example of how open source can make money:

1) I can either follow the directions and wind up with mediocre beer after a lot of work, or

2) I can buy a six-pack from someone with better brewing skills, and enjoy good beer for less effort.

Since most beer-drinkers are at least somewhat lazy, it's a great opportunity for micro-brewers.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Reziac]

Hops grow wild in Montana (indeed, they greatly resemble some northern form of kudzu). What about growing or gathering your own?

Also, bulk grain from a feed mill is more like $8/50 lbs. (bagged) in the U.S.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Reziac]

I have a Nesco countertop roaster that I use the same way. Throw in a big lump of any kind of frozen meat, and optionally any handy random veggies, and/or a can or two of tomato sauce and/or mushroom soup, go away for four hours, and it's food. Instant homemade dinner!

My mom is a WONDERFUL cook from a family of WONDERFUL cooks. It ruined me... if everyone had grown up on real food like I did, and retained the tastes trained by that, 99% of restaurants and fast food joints would go out of business.

Re:Missed half the point!

[5c11]

Eh? Where are you shopping? I bought 12.5 lbs of domestic 2-row (Briess I think it was...) last night for about $10 ($0.85/lb). In fact, I hear about people getting 50lb sacks of Rahr for under $30 fairly often (usually from brewpubs).

Ok ok, I did spend an additional $0.80 on a half pound of Crystal 10 (making a Blonde for summertime) so my grain actually cost me a little more than $11 total. But unless you're doing something with a ton of specialty grains, or something big, $10 is pretty standard for a batch and you can knock it way down if you buy in bulk and have your own mill (sigh, someday...).

Re:Missed half the point!

[Dripdry]

If I might poke my 2 cents in. Please, try the 120 Minute. It may be expensive, but I think you'll find it worth your while.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Darby]

People like you spend allot of time worrying about grammar. I would recomend that your do something better with you're time.

Do you mean that you think that he should a lot his time more efficiently?

Re:Missed half the point!

[DriedClexler]

Goodbye, hope of regaining karma on this account.

People like you are IDIOTS and you drive me INSANE! There is NO real difference between the beers! They all taste like rotten piss! Did you guys not get the memo? People aren't comparing beer taste because of the genuine differences in the beer. They do is a form of male bonding ("rapport building") with a meaningless topic as the referent. It is also a form of signaling whereby you can acknowledge someone's superiority ("alpha male") and thus that you are not a threat.

I support your right to brew beer. But I also have the right to call you people complete IDIOTS for maintaining a pretense of seriousness when you had by now better damn well know there ain't a single difference.

It is exactly like wine-tasting. Double-blind tests will REMOVE your ability to detect quality, or even most of the intra-type differences.

You know what really pissed me off? A guy at work came into my office yesterday, barely acknowledged my existence, and went to yack for 30 minutes with my officemate about their beer-brewing techniques, while the latter had just been bitching the whole day about how he couldn't have a single interruption because of a serious deadline. (I wasn't bothered, but he had thrown a phone off his desk in protest at management asking for updates.) I got to hear all their bullshit about the subtleties of flavor and how you gotta learn about anaerobic process[1], blah blah blah. The alpha (my officemate) was yacking on about vegemite, yeast, and all the usual garbage. I freaking wanted to yell at them YOU IDIOTS THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE.

Beertasting is, at root, just a cover for keeping beer legal despite its psychoactive properties that for everything else would justify banning or harsh regulation. And I support its legality! But please guys, keep your beer talk in actual, meatspace, SOCIAL situations, where it actually accomplishes a FUNCTION (signaling/bonding), rather than conducting the modern day equivalent of counting angels on pinheads.

[1]No, I'm not denying the validity of the chemistry, just importance of having precision down to a the level of understanding all that.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Xiph]

Just buy a coffee mill for starters.
I'm using an electric coffee grinder, that i got for cheap at a supermarket, the result is the same, as long as you do your mash properly

Re:Missed half the point!

[gosand]

Sorry, but I gotta say that you're going for imports that just aren't better than a lot of domestic brews.

But they are more readily available to me.

My big grocery store is within walking distance from my house. They do have some micro-and-not-mega-brews, and good ones. But those aren't my staples. I kind of have to get what they stock though, and German beers just hit my palate more often than not. I go through phases though. Now if I want to drive for 20 minutes, I can get to an AJs or BevMo and go nuts. Leffe is one of my favorites, and Duvel... my wife lived in Belgium for a while, and we visited there once. Truly amazing beers.

And if I want to drive a little further and spend more, there's a "Yard House" about 30 minutes away. 130+ beers on tap. Left-Hand Milk Stout is awesome. And they have some "interesting" combinations like Framboise and Youngs Chocolate Stout. I probably won't get it again, but was glad I tried it.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Xiph]

Stuff that matters!

Re:Missed half the point!

[Sloppy]

My main suppliers are my LHBS Victor's Grape Arbor and Northern Brewer for the stuff Victor doesn't have.

Those are less-than-50-lb amounts. I do see some good price breaks for 50 lb sacks, so I suppose I could save some money if I did that.

$10 is pretty standard for a batch and you can knock it way down if you buy in bulk and have your own mill (sigh, someday...).

It sounds like I'm paying too much for malt, then. Time to look at other suppliers. Thanks for the nudge. ;-)

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just going to get to the point: you sir or madame, are too friggin' anal.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Lifthrasir]

Two points - grain for brewing has to be malted first, and I doubt that grain for bulk feed would be. Also, if your picking wild hops, you have no idea what your adding to your beer. You don't know what kind of flavour they'll impart and you don't know how bitter they are.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Reziac]

OTOH, you could thereby have the adventure of a new and different beer, or toxic waste as the case may be :) Surely *someone* doing home-brewing must grow or gather their own hops, and there are a lot of known cultivars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hops) And I'd think you could make a good guess as to how they'll affect your beer by making a plain tea from the flowers first. If your mouth falls off, they're too bitter. :)

As to malting, you can do that yourself, if you want the full-fledged adventure of brewing absolutely from scratch :) http://byo.com/feature/284.html
Feed-grade barley (untreated, unhusked) used to be about $2/50 lbs. back when I bought it for pigeon feed, so it's probably around $6-$8 now. And it would sprout at the least excuse. Step one!

Just speculating here, I don't drink enough beer to make it worth the bother, but as a closet medievalist I find the concept interesting.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Nitewing98]

Surprisingly, one of the best "investments" I've made was a Ronco Showtime Oven. It really is "set it and forget it." And this rotisserie oven turns out the juiciest chicken I've ever eaten. Shortly after buying it I asked the guy at the butcher counter at the store for some suggestions, only to find out that he has one of these ovens also!

While I've never made homemade rootbeer, there used to be a small diner here in Kansas City that made their own and it was unlike any I've ever had - sweet and the flavors were very rich! Sadly, the diner closed several years ago and the root beer is no more.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Reziac]

Some of those infomercial products are actually pretty good (thanks for the reference; if I see a Ronco oven I'll try to snag it!) Frex, I have an old Popiel Pocket Fisherman that is great for overgrown riverbanks. -- These guys discovered self-marketing and keeping most of the profits LONG before the new DIY music distribution industry! :)

Sad about the rootbeer :( Ameci's Pizza carries a couple brands of old-style rootbeer and cream soda, and ooooh, they are heavenly, and nothing like any of the current namebrand sodas. The nearest I remember otherwise would be the ***OLD*** A&W soda, back when they still delivered a tray to your car.

And that reminds me of Dairy Queen back when they served GOOD ice cream... damn, even fast food has gone to hell!

Re:Missed half the point!

[dontmakemethink]

Actually it's quite easy to brew 23L batches of good beer for under $8 (USD/CAD) if you buy ingredients in quantity, which is quite reasonable if you have brewing friends to share the load. That's roughly 12 cents per 12oz beer.

The beer I brew costs about 20 cents per 12oz bottle, and it's very user-friendly, designed to taste good without filtering and virtually no aging. It's drinkable (and enjoyable) within 10 days of *starting* the brew (only 3 days in the bottles), and peaks at about 6 weeks. At two weeks it's much like Charles Wells IPA.

I've offered to share my recipe, but most brewing enthusiasts are masochists who enjoy not drinking their beer for months...

I should also point out a major advantage of homebrewing vs. commercial brewing is "fresh-hopping", meaning the addition of hops mid-brew, whose aroma and flavor have a limited shelf-life. Part of my recipe uses fresh-hopping to mask the yeasts still present in the first few weeks after bottling. The yeasts are very good for you, only the taste is undesirable.

In response to the article, beer recipe swapping is hardly anything new. It's been going on for hundreds of years. Putting an open-source spin on it isn't really noteworthy.

Any excuse to talk about beer is ok by me though!

Re:Missed half the point!

[Reziac]

I've got a bread droid. Does that count? :)

Must stuff is not only made cheaper at home, but usually better too. Commercial jelly is just gaggy after eating even *my* attempts at jelly (which was no more than boiling some plums and sugar together).

I've gotta try making cheese out of leftover milk.. sometimes I buy a gallon and just never seem to use it. I know cottage cheese can be made easily enough, just need to try it. I had some dry-curd cottage cheese from a dairy in South Dakota that as it aged (just from sitting around for a couple months, no special care other than being kept cool), turned into something very similar to Swiss.

Bread, tho, is an exception -- IF you've got a GOOD bakery that makes real yeasty white bread, IMO it's better than what you can make at home... ooooh.... The old Buttrey's and Albertson's chains in Montana had GOOD white bread, with the real yeasty taste and smell (the kind you want to bury your nose in and eat it by the squished handful rather than as a sandwich), and strong enough texture to smear with peanut butter... The closest I've seen in California, believe it or not, are the hoagies from Sam's Club!

Re:Missed half the point!

[falconwolf]

Even with ales you must keep the at the optimum fermentation range of 65F during the entire primary ferment.

Once I made some sake and the hardest part was keeping the temperature low. A couple of tymes a day, more actually, I had to change the ice bath I kept the fermenter in.

Making true high end beers (which is where the true savings is) is not...

However you left out one very important point, brewing is a hobby. If you don't like it spend your tyme in front of the boob tube, go down the the tavern, or Disney. Or if you care so much about money, be a workaholic and work two or three jobs.

Falcon

Re:Missed half the point!

[falconwolf]

Mom always taught me that anything you could buy at the store or a restaurant could be made cheaper at home. In the late 60's and early 70's I watched her make cheese, can jelly and pickles, bake bread, and try winemaking.

While my mom didn't make cheese, can, or brew, she did teach me to cook and bake, and raised me to be adventurous. When I started brewing the shop I got the stuff at also had stuff for cheese making and I got into it as well. I haven't done either in years but I'd like to, my apartment is small but I may be able to squeeze enough space. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find someplace I can get raw, unpasteurized, milk at. Right now I'm working on my garden and I want to try some experiments other than canning. One thing I want to try is make some fruit beers like in Belgium, and some with hot peppers. I'm hoping I'll grow enough peppers, I don't have much space for a garden, to use some for beer, stuffing, and making cheese with.

Falcon

Re:Missed half the point!

[falconwolf]

As an American IdiotTM, I grew up suspicious of any food that didn't come wrapped in plastic or aluminum.

I take exception to that, the "American" part. Growing up in Florida not many summer and fall weekends went by when my family didn't go to a BBQ. The meat we ate was what we got hunting or fishing whether it be, hog or wild boar, gator tail, venison, and or frog legs. The vegetables were grown in the garden. But maybe a Floridian isn't an American.

Have you ever had home made root beer or fig preserves?

Not root beer or fig preserves but I've made ginger beer, cheese, and jellies as well as canned food. I'm growing broccoli and cauliflower, blueberries and strawberries, acorn and zucchini squash, cucumbers, and different varieties of tomatoes and peppers. Some of these I'll can, some make cheese with, and some make beer with.

Falcon

Re:Missed half the point!

[falconwolf]

I don't have any valid statistics on it, but I almost wonder if the people who do like 'ethnic' food tend to dine out more and fill in the gaps. I dine out at least once/week, and I definitely gravitate to more exotic foods.

I love ethnic food, however I haven't eaten out the last few years much. Instead when I feel like it I've cook something, say an Asian stir fry. There's an African, Ethiopian I think, grocery store near me and I'd like to try cooking something from there. Unfortunately I don't like cooking just for myself and I don't know anyone to cook for.

Most of the people I personally know are some of the most adventurous eaters I've ever met. But, a few (significant) exceptions are completely unsophisticated in their food choices.

Though the rest of my family are adventurous eaters and love hot and spicy food, my younger sister's like that. Even the mildest hot, not bell, pepper is hot to her. The rest of us haven't met a pepper that was too hot. Hot sauce is another matter. Before several years ago I had not had sauce that was too hot, however my sister, her husband, who also loves heat, and I were at this restaurant. My brother-in-law and I asked for the hottest sauce they had and the waiter brought out this small bottle, Dave's Insanity Sauce with a small opening like Louisiana Hot Sauce or Tabasco Sauce. I kept shaking the sauce on my dish, I don't recall what I ordered, then just as I bit into a mouthful my brother-in-law tried to warn me. It was the hottest I had even had and I pushed the plate away. I asked the waiter for a takeout baggy or whatever to take it with me, I figured I'll make some chili to add it to. Then I asked him or her if they sold the sauce, they did so I bought a bottle. Wanting to know what pepper they used, so I could grow it, I looked at the label, and while it didn't say what it was it had a url so I figured the website might say what it is. It didn't but it said the sauce should be used in recipes, a couple of drops for cooking.

Falcon

Re:Missed half the point!

[ncc74656]

Sorry, but I gotta say that you're going for imports that just aren't better than a lot of domestic brews. Try beers from Dogfish Head, Lagunitas, He-brew or Left Hand - they're nationally available "microbrews."

Um...nothing wrong with that selection as I've had something from all of them, but I wouldn't characterize them as "nationally available." Las Vegas isn't exactly a small town, but none of the brands you name are available here. (If we're lucky, Dogfish Head might find its way here in another year or two...asked one of their people about it at GABF last year, and was told that they wanted to get some distribution facilities up and running in California first, or something like that.) That said, we probably get some stuff (Stone, Rogue, Deschutes, Wasatch, etc.) that you don't. Outside of the largest brewers (Sam Adams, Sierra Nevada, maybe New Belgium), not many have the means to make enough beer to have their products in every market.

That said, checking out whatever craft beer is available in your neck of the woods (which I think was your point) is highly recommended.

Re:Missed half the point!

[jonadab]

I think you're talking at cross-purposes. The relative costs of different goods is different in different places.

The other poster used the phrase "real ales", which is a strong indication he's probably located in Britain. If you need an additional hint, he implied that Vista is an import good, which almost certainly means he's *not* located in the US.

In the US, almost all beer is national-brand stuff, brewed in a small number of locations, bottled, and transported hundreds or even thousands of miles. I am given to understand (though I've not been there personally) that in Britain you can walk into almost any pub and buy stuff that's actually brewed locally.

So I'm kind of guessing here, but the considerations may be slightly different where you live versus where he lives.

Re:Missed half the point!

[CastrTroy]

If you like hot sauce, and are ever near Ottawa, you should check out Chilly Chiles. They sell all kinds of hot sauce. They even sell some pepper extract that is so hot you have to sign a waiver to buy it. A couple drops heats up an entire pot of chilly (from what I hear, never bought it). They also deliver, although I'm unsure about out of the country. I only wish they hadn't moved their shop out to the very edge of the city. They used to have a nice shop located downtown, and it was nice to be able to pick up a bottle of hot sauce on the weekend.

Re:Missed half the point!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you live in Quebec, as I do, then just consider that the sin tax on alcohol makes the beer over a dollar a bottle. The bottle size is about 500ml, or same quantity as a can of Coke.

Home brew cuts that cost down by a factor of 3.

Re:Missed half the point!

[The_reformant]

Its the time though isnt it? I try and cook from scratch at leas 3 or 4 times a week but with work, the gym and my 2 bands spending an hour and a half cooking takes up what little time i have at home.

Re:Missed half the point!

[PopeRatzo]

There's another important bit of hardware for anyone interested in making good food at home without too much of the time and fuss, that's a pressure cooker. I don't know what I'd do without ours. I even make my own dog- and cat-food in the pressure cooker. It's a fraction of the cost and I know what's in it.

But it's worth buying a good one. The cheap ones won't build up sufficient pressure. If you buy a decent one at a re-sale store or garage sale, make sure the rubber seal around the lid is in good shape. If it was made by a decent manufacturer, you can almost certainly still buy new seals for it.

Yeah, I miss the real A&W as well as the real Dairy Queen. A lot of small boutique beer breweries will also make batches of root beer, so if you've got a microbrewery near you, ask them if they also carry any root beer or sarsaparilla (which is fine fine fine).

Re:Missed half the point!

[drsquare]

CO2 from a tank does not in any way change the flavor of a beer.

It alters the consistency and texture of the beer. Instead of a smooth, sensual pint, you end up with a harsh, fizzy abomination.

Re:Missed half the point!

[drsquare]

Westerners born in the last 20 or so years have a very limited palette and no adventure when it comes to food.

Then how do you explain the prevalence of all those curry and kebab houses, selling all sorts of strange foreign foods with ingredients of dubious origin?

The first thing I ever got from the net ...

[dbIII]

... was free beer recipies. It was "The Jolly Brewer" in postscript format made by people on alt.rec.brewing some time in the late 1980's or early 1990s. It was certainly before the web came along in 1992.

Re:The first thing I ever got from the net ...

[dreamchaser]

I remember that! I had just gotten my start with homebrewing and I found quite a few of the free recipes a big help as I learned and grew my repetoire.

I've always thought of homebrewing to be a bit like Open Source anyways. The vast majority of brewers I know are more than happy to share their recipes and secrets with fellow brewers. It's an activity that lends itself to collaboration.

Re:The first thing I ever got from the net ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That was free beer v1.0, obviously. It wasn't concocted to boost a business under the guise of freedom. Get with the times, use your five minutes of fame to make someone else rich.

Re:The first thing I ever got from the net ...

[Fishbulb]

Or The Cat's Meow (3) which is still around: http://www.brewery.org/cm3/CatsMeow3.html although now static, but replaced by Gambrinus' Mug: http://brewery.org/gambmug/

Not free for everyone

[KDR_11k]

In some jurisdictions you need a license to brew beer. I doubt that's included...

Re:Not free for everyone

[Gordonjcp]

Like where? A licence to mix water, sugar and yeast? That's just about the stupidest thing you could ever require.

Re:Not free for everyone

[jimicus]

Like where? A licence to mix water, sugar and yeast? That's just about the stupidest thing you could ever require. My, my, what is the world coming to when people can't even get the ingredients in beer right.

Water, hops, malt, yeast. That's all it is.

Re:Not free for everyone

[popmaker]

As far as I know, all the ingredients required to make amphetamine are legal. Mixing them is not, though.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Faylone]

Utah seems to require one, even for personal brewing, although if you're wanting to sell it commercially, I think you have to register with the ATF as they will want to TAX you. http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/faq/beer.htm has more info

Re:Not free for everyone

[Wizard Drongo]

Think that's bad?
Ever since the English got control of Scotland, it's illegal to distill whisky without a (extremely expensive) licence.
And what is Scotland most famous for?

Literally, if I pay a few thousand pounds, I can have a licence to make as much whisky as is humanly possible. About $10,000 I think.
Yet if I make 100ml of moonshine for my own consumption, I can go to jail for 10 years.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, what's next? Making it illegal to distill whiskey without a licence? Laws that forbid you from growing smokable plants in your own home? From carrying out other chemical reactions and synthesising certain substances?

Heck, they might even make it so that I can't make copies of this record I just bought for my friends, and require me to undergo a test (paid for by myself!) to be allowed to pilot an automobile, or anything else. It'll be a damn police state, I tell you.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Like where? A licence to mix water, sugar and yeast? That's just about the stupidest thing you could ever require.

I once got a 200 fine for having rye with mycelium growing on it. It would've been legal with a research license.

Re:Not free for everyone

[MrHanky]

Homebrewing beer is illegal in Alabama, for one. It can even get you into actual trouble.

Re:Not free for everyone

[R_Dorothy]

And what is Scotland most famous for? Bucky and binge drinking.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Lord_Frederick]

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure running around shooting at people is also illegal.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Linker3000]

If you think Buckfast Abbey is in Scotland then you may have been drinking waaaay too much!

It's in Devon - way down in South West **England**.

http://www.buckfast.org.uk/site.php?use=maps

Re:Not free for everyone

[Curunir_wolf]

No, that's crazy. You don't need a license or anything to brew beer in your home for personal use. Federal post-prohibition laws specifically allow for home breweries, and some limits to the amount (200 gallons per year).

Due to this specific Federal law, there is not state or local jurisdiction that can get away with outlawing it.

Re:Not free for everyone

[R_Dorothy]

The Abbey is in England but most of their production is drunk in Scotland - over 10% in Lanarkshire alone. It's the favoured drink of neds and schemies - including those that hang around on the road outside my flat, judging by the number of broken empties in the gutters.

Re:Not free for everyone

[MosesJones]

And what is Scotland most famous for?

Hang on I know this one... its inventing the Telephone? or is it TV? Anaesthetics? Hell I give up its a massive list

In conjunction with alcohol however the Scots are most famous for drinking the brewing is just the process you have to do to get to being drunk. Waiting to distil a decent malt is just a waste of time when their are cans of Special available.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Linker3000]

Hi - was sneaking in a reply to my original but I see you've already covered it - I read the BBC article and note that the Scots are sending raiding parties to Buckfast!

I stand corrected!

Re:Not free for everyone

[Curunir_wolf]

I assume this is the code that was quoted to the guy:

Ala. Code 28-1-1 - "In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law."

May be less clear that it first appears. After all, if you're just making home brew, are they going to call your stock pot and plastic bucket "apparatus"? Seems like it would be a hard sell. Most of the rest is about transporting which wouldn't apply, since you're at home.

Plus, everything refers to "illegal" beverages. As long as you don't do any recipes that produce high ABV beer (prohibited in Alabama), it's probably not applicable to home brew.

Doesn't mean the ABC won't go around intimidating people if they are flaunting their home brewing, but if they have to check they ABV of a homebrew to determine whether someone broke the law (I think they would), they are probably not really interested in enforcing it. Which is why there are plenty of homebrew supply stores in Alabama that are left alone.

Re:Not free for everyone

[morgan_greywolf]

In most U.S. states, brewing beer for personal/family use is okay without a license. What's considered personal/family use? In most states, it's a LOT of beer. Like 200 gallons per calendar year by ATF regs -- this is the same for most U.S. states.

Re:Not free for everyone

[aliquis]

The weird thing with that is that Carlsberg says they have "probably the best beer in the world" but the ingredient list only lists malt and yeast, no hops, what's up with that!!?

Re:Not free for everyone

[dkleinsc]

But now a Scot has control over England. So shouldn't you guys get revenge by outlawing ale or something like that?

Re:Not free for everyone

[PopeRatzo]

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure running around shooting at people is also illegal.

Unless you're Bush's vice-president.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever since the English got control of Scotland
Huh, that's funny, I thought that there was a British Parliment, with it's biggest party - labour - being run by a Scot, as well as a Scottish Parliment by way of devolution a few years back.

Re:Not free for everyone

[meadwizard]

Not so true. In fact the post-prohibition laws granted the states almost complete control over alcohol. State laws have been past in most states to permit the brewing of about 100g/adult/year but these are mostly over the last 20 years and before that it was most definitely illegal to home brew.

Re:Not free for everyone

[vraddict]

Well that's only if you are abiding by the Reinheitsgebot of 1487 from Germany. These days with modern and creative brewing, many more ingredients are being used. Including cinnamon and nutmeg in Christmas Ales, Honey, coffee, and in Okinawa they make beer using a local black sugar, which has quite an interesting taste. And you could produce alcohol by mixing water, sugar and yeast, but it wouldn't be beer, and it sure wouldn't taste good. I think the definition of beer must include Water, hops, malt, and yeast, anything else will just make it interesting.

Water, hops, malt, yeast. That's all it is.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Anonymous Coward]

That is if you follow the traditional purity law (Reinheitsgebot). It's possible to brew good beer while deviating from this recipe.

I remember my father brewing with added sugar and also soaking in junipers.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Curunir_wolf]

Not quite. The Federal homebrew law was passed in 1979

Re:Not free for everyone

[zsau]

Actually, I think the only western country that allows distilling scotch whisky or, indeed, any distilled drink, without paying an expensive licence is New Zealand. People who come from colder climes can accidentally leave their brew in the snow if they want it a bit stronger, but if you want to do it properly, you'll be struggling to find a plausible explanation for it.

Re:Not free for everyone

[meadwizard]

That federal law only deals with Taxation. The states still control the legality of the brewing itself. "States remain free to restrict, or even prohibit, the manufacture of beer, mead, hard cider, wine and other alcoholic beverages at home."

Re:Not free for everyone

[MahariBalzitch]

Only 200 gallons per calendar year? Well, I'll be sticking with commercial beer then. I can drink 200 gallons per calendar year standing on my head.

Re:Not free for everyone

[JimCDiver]

Except for Gruit Ale, which replaced hops with other assorted herbs like Bog Myrtle, Sweet Yarrow, Juniper Berries, Spruce tips and so forth.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Wizard Drongo]

OK, so granted on the bucky and binging.
But that's the neds. Not the Scots.
Neds are merely a small, insignificant social group in Scotland that receive far too much attention as it is. If everyone just ignored the wee bastards, it'd make life a lot better.

Particularly if road users could start ignoring them, that'd really help their swift demise (as a social group, of course).
Still, my point was about the blatent hypocrisy in the licensing laws. Not only do they stop home-brewers from making a little sum-sumthing, it also adds a financial burden on micro-distilleries, something that the Whsiky industry could really benefit more from, especially when you consider that almost all the whiskies (brands) made in Scotland, and around 98% of the actual whisky itself is made by 4 large companies, all of whom have a habit of killing off the "less profitable" brands every now and then. I can only actually think of one independent distillery left, Bruichladdich on Islay.
The "Big 4" are killing the whisky industry, and destroying brands have been made for upwards of 250 years. If the licensing laws were reduced to being "free to distil for your own consumption" and then a "cheapo licence for the craft-stills", then "hand over all your gold" for the big conglomerates, Scotch would be worth a lot more, the world over, with better quality single malts.

And it'd mean I can make my own "concoctions" without fear of the Excise men...

Re:Not free for everyone

[Mr Tall]

I thought Bruichladdich was being bought by Grouse? Please please please tell me I'm wrong :)

Re:Not free for everyone

[nakajoe]

It's like that in Japan. Not that the police actually care--everybody I was even acquainted with knew I was brewing, and "hey, cool" was the only response I got other than "I don't care".

Re:Not free for everyone

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Not quite.

Depending on which synthesis technique you are talking about, some of the ingredients (red phosphorus, phenylacetone, hydriodic acid, methylamine, etc.) will be "listed precursor chemicals", regulated by the DEA.

And under federal (and some state) laws, mere POSSESSION of pseudoephedrine cold medicine along with one or more of the other ingredients can be enough to face a "conspiracy to manufacture" charge. You don't have to actually mix anything (or even intend to do so) in order to become a victim of the War on(some)Drugs.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Shagg]

Actually, the federal law specifically allows the states to restrict it if they want. Most don't, but there are still a couple that do.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Wizard Drongo]

Unless you know something the rest of the world doesn't, it would appear you are very wrong indeed.
The 'Laddie is owned by a few private individuals, they don't even allow companies to hold shares; it's all private investors, mostly from the island!
As you can see here: http://www.theherald.co.uk/business/news/display.var.2227543.0.Bruichladdich_sees_a_rosy_future_as_malt_sales_soar.php

They appear to be doing quite well from all accounts. I would so love a job with them in any position!

Re:Not free for everyone

[This Rhino Flies]

Hops were added for flavor, but also as a desinfectant/perservative. If you can imagine things from 1487 til the near present weren't especially sanitary. I suppose nowadays you can get away without adding hops. Most of what could spoil has been removed from the beer. As my home brewmeister says "It can't go bad, if it wasn't ever good! :) Ryan

Re:Not free for everyone

[MrHanky]

Yes, but there's the problem that "high alcohol beer" in Alabama is defined fairly broad (IIRC, a standard Pilsner (not of the American kind) is above the limit). Not that you can't make excellent low alcohol beer (most of the common British styles, for instance), but many homebrewers are into tasty IPAs, Trappist style beers, imperial stouts, etc., all of which are high alcohol. After all, one significant advantage to homebrewing is that you easily can produce beer that is otherwise hard to get or expensive.

Re:Not free for everyone

[This Rhino Flies]

...well not everyone uses plastic barrels and tubing http://bp2.blogger.com/_ptnXQueWpuI/SAz83HBwOMI/AAAAAAAAA60/fTKizPv78Sw/s320/IMG_5145.jpg Luckily I don't live in Alabama. No offense intended to Alabamians.

Re:Not free for everyone

[gstoddart]

Yet if I make 100ml of moonshine for my own consumption, I can go to jail for 10 years.

Well, in fairness, unless you know what you're doing, that moonshine could cause organ failure, blindness, or death.

While I don't doubt there's a strong element of financial control at the root of that, there is likely some kernel of health and safety.

Not everyone is capable of making mooonshine which isn't toxic. :-P

Cheers

Re:Not free for everyone

[Keyslapper]

Jimmy Carter signed into Law the explicit legalization of home brewing beer as mentioned just above ...

Everything I've read indicates that home wine making was legalized with the repeal of prohibition, but there was a clerical error that omitted beer from this bill. I've never seen anything that indicated there was a continued crackdown on home brewing beer though.

The limits have been mentioned here many times, but it is worth saying that many of these are missing some important details. Federal (not state!) regulations allow brewing 100 gallons of wine and 100 gallons of beer for personal use. For households with 2 or more adults of legal drinking age, those limits are extended to 200 gallons. These are US limits - I can't speak to non-US restrictions. Federal law also allows for removal of home brewed beverages from the brewery (your home, that is) for the purposes of competitions, shows, etc. It is still illegal to distill any beverage to increase the ABV for the purposes of consumption, though not for the purpose of herbal or other extracts. It is also highly illegal to sell any home brewed alcoholic beverage.

BTW, for the purposes of these laws, I am under the impression that mead classifies as a wine, as does barleywine, but I've never found a clear definition of the two as used by the law here in the US. It's probably explicitly defined by ABV, but I'm not sure where the boundaries lie between beer, wine, and liquor. I have seen wines up in the 18% to 19% zone ("Viking Blod" is a phenomenal Danish mead the rolls in at 19%), but I think anything over 20% is classified as liquor or spirits.

As always, IANAL, so check your state (or province, county, etc.) regulations before you start.

Re:Not free for everyone

[guaigean]

According to that, 200 gallons is only for a family (2 or more adults). 100 gallons is the individual rate. As you get about 10-11 standard beers out of a gallon (12oz. beers), you're looking at about 1066 beers per person, per year, or a little under 3 per day. Anything beyond that is taxable.

So I guess the key is to marry someone that doesn't drink so you can hit the 200gal mark :)

Re:Not free for everyone

[Mr Tall]

You've just made my day mate, thanks! I heard from someone a while ago that they were being bought out by one of the big distilleries. I'm so happy to be wrong!

Re:Not free for everyone

[Cytotoxic]

Sam Adams makes Utopias beer, which is over 25% alcohol. It sells for over $100 for a 24 ounce bottle, if you can find it. Strangely, it might be a good deal at that price, as the collectable bottles from the 2007 vintage appear to sell for over $300 on ebay.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Sax Maniac]

It may be stupid, but government is stupid. It was illegal to homebrew in the US until 1978. Sure, you could mix water, sugar, yeast, but you weren't allowed to ferment it. To this day, you can't make an eisbock by freezing it and taking the ice chunks out, which is considered distilling by law.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Wizard Drongo]

Granted. But not everyone is capable of making beer that isn't toxic either.
That's not illegal (at least not here).
Ditto any number of other things you can do in your house that have a far greater chance of death/injury.
Illicit distilling is illicit solely just because of the money. They've even said as much, and the whisky industry is more than happy about it since the Big 4 like to keep the status quo. Craft-stillers would mean much better whisky would be freely available. And that wouldn't do at all!

Re:Not free for everyone

[Lifthrasir]

I'd say you'd have to do a good job to produce something which IS toxic.

Methanol is a by-product of the fermentation of pectin which is found in fruit. If your fermenting a plain sugar-wash, you don't have to worry about it. And the BP of methanol is around 10*C lower than ethanol, so all you have to do is discard the foreshots (and they smell/taste bad anyway).

There are other 'bad' byproducts of fermentation too, but simply put, you through out the beginning and end and keep the middle. It's easy to tell when to make your cuts by just looking at the thermometer on the still head. When you get a bit of experience, just have a smell of the distillate. If it smells bad, chuck it. If it doesn't smell bad, keep it.

As long as your still doesn't have any lead or plastic in it, and your not cutting your product with benzene or anti-freeze, then your product will have a lot less 'bad' stuff in it than the commercial crap that you buy. Which is good - after a big night on the home made stuff you wake up the next day without a hangover, whereas if you were drinking the bought stuff your head feels like it's going to rip itself open.

Re:Not free for everyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, most people think that beer should be made from water, sugar, and yeast... They drink mass-produced crappy domestic beer (they use rice and chemical preservatives!)

Homebrewers and beer snobs know that beer should only be made with water, hops, malt, and yeast. There is no rice in my beer.

Re:Not free for everyone

[ncc74656]

But not everyone is capable of making beer that isn't toxic either.

You'd have to work hard at it to make beer that is toxic. Malt, hops, yeast, and water aren't going to produce anything that'll kill you unless you seriously mishandle them, and even then I'm doubtful. Keep in mind that, a few hundred years ago, everybody made beer (and everybody drank it, even kids) because it was safer to drink than water.

Re:Not free for everyone

[falconwolf]

I think the only western country that allows distilling scotch whisky or, indeed, any distilled drink, without paying an expensive licence is New Zealand.

Early this year a Home Distilling Bill was introduced in the US House of Reps to allow distilling in the home.

Falcon

Re:Not free for everyone

[zsau]

How nifty. I hope it passes, although it will have no bearing on me, at least in the short term, as I live in Australia.

Re:Not free for everyone

[falconwolf]

Yet if I make 100ml of moonshine for my own consumption, I can go to jail for 10 years.

Well, in fairness, unless you know what you're doing, that moonshine could cause organ failure, blindness, or death.

In which case you're harming yourself if you drink it. Government should not be making victimless crimes, such as making it illegal to smoke a joint in your own home and drinking your own liquor while relaxing. Here's a good flowchart on "Should There Be A Law?".

Falcon

Re:Not free for everyone

[falconwolf]

No, that's crazy. You don't need a license or anything to brew beer in your home for personal use. Federal post-prohibition laws specifically allow for home breweries, and some limits to the amount (200 gallons per year).

Due to this specific Federal law, there is not state or local jurisdiction that can get away with outlawing it.

While federal law allows people to home brew it also allows states to allow or make it illegal, check ATF Online FAQ. Specifically read:
"4. You must operate Brew-on-Premises business in compliance with State and local laws. The ability to produce beer for personal or family use and without payment of tax at a BOP under Federal law does not authorize production of beer by adults, or operation of a BOP business, in violation of state or local law."

As someone posted above yours Alabama is one of the states where homebrewing is illegal.

Falcon

Re:Not free for everyone

[Wizard Drongo]

One word: ergot.
OK, so it's more of a crop-cockup than a brewing cock-up.
But ergot-contaminated beer is still a possibility in today's world if the craft brewer is particularly "homey" and wants o grow their own crop (as some do). Not being a mainstream farmer, they won't know what to look for and so ergot contamination can be overlooked.

Then there are various problems with the yeast, they might get the wrong kind, or again it could be contaminated. I do agree in general that beer is safer than a) unknown water supplies and b) distillation, since 'stilling concentrates whatever crap you were drinking massively.

Not hard to do it safe though. Even without methanol testing and the like, if you simply chuck the first 10% and last 10% of your first still, you're fine.

I am glad I don't have to...

[patio11]

... listen to the bug reports for this one.

"*slurrred* We've been waiting on RC2 for years now and you still haven't fixed B..b..bug #272 Sporadic Bubble Popping. Lazy bastards, I'd fork if I could tell the difference between a fork and a spoon right now."

Re:I am glad I don't have to...

[eastlight_jim]

You wouldn't need to tell the difference if you used sporks more often. Although dangerous cross breeds and alcohol probably shouldn't mix...

All quiet on the northern front

[pacroon]

Nice to see a fellow kinsman on /. The beer was also featured on a BBC documentary a while back.

Nice, but where can you get it

[RiotingPacifist]

Much like Free coke & Linux, i love the idea but they haven't managed to break the OEM monopoly(ok Linux is doing it slowly) meaning that unless you want to make your own, which can be tricky and may not work/taste as well/good as a premade one.
Unfortunately it looks like its just for enthusiasts, unless they can make it significantly better than the competition and get OEMs to offer it (e.g much better performance/usability on small systems). Unfortunately for beer/coke there is no metric as its down to taste, the only metric that can be used is popularity, which means that they cant be better than coke until they are better than coke. There only hope is that universities will offer it as an ethical alternative to their shelves of coke-cola & drug company products (such as the way my uni offers one water along side evian, etc & fair trade chocolate next to nestle and mars)

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[RiotingPacifist]

Disregard that it seams sleep deprivation has kicked in and i switched threads from beer to coke half way through that post, I dont think that there are any ethical issues around beer companies, but my point stands that there is no way to get the beer easily (e.g at your pub)

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[Jurily]

I'm waiting for the LiveCD brewery.

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Suggestion: join CAMRA or whatever US equivalent there is which is interested in craft beer and organising beer festivals, or patronise your local pub which specialises in craft beer. Get in on organising the beer festivals. Talk to a local microbrewery about a festival special - provide the recipe (making sure they know how it all works). Go there and brew it with them. Drink draft beer at festival and stock up on the bottle-conditioned product. Start process again.

We did it (http://www.s-mart.net/freebeer/) and the second batch is one of the nicest beers I have ever had. Go do it! NOW!

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[joelstobart]

Linux and coke, must be the fair-trade Ubuntu Cola

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I love getting my free Ubeertu liveCD.

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[RiotingPacifist]

You ask for one and this Shuttleworth guy sends you a six pack, and ask you to give them to your friends (yeah like that's gunna happen *burp*)

Re:Nice, but where can you get it

[RiotingPacifist]

Actually I was going for OpenCola I dont think the ubuntu cola is open source :(

Ok, good start!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now someone fork this project and bring me what I really need:

Free (As In Speech) Sex, V1.0

I've got an old beta program, but my single-user license isn't cutting it anymore. Perhaps my suggestion and the article would work together well in a plugin system?

How are GNU's definitions...

[pablomme]

...going to cope with this? They are going to change the front page to say

you should think of "free" as in "free speech", not as in "free (not as in speech) beer"

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[Anonymous Coward]

They're definitions are pretty messy already. Free beer causes free speech

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[niceone]

Yeah, it's a MS plot to make people's heads explode at the FSF.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[DragonWriter]

Eh. The GPL, propaganda aside, is already "free as in 'free (not as in speech)' beer", not "free as in speech". If it was "free as in speech", it wouldn't require a license.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[pablomme]

The GPL does not say that you must give your software away free of charge, you can charge for it if you wish, so it's not "free as in beer" (although it usually is).

The idea is that free software gives you freedom to do whatever you want with it, as long as it remains free for others to do whatever they want with it. The target is collective freedom, which effectively limits individual freedom, and it's these limits that the license sets.

What you refer to as "free software" is "public domain software". If you release software to the public domain and the software is any good, chances are some corporation will appropriate it and impose their own license. Without a "thank you"... The GPL is far closer to most people's idea of "freedom" than public domain software.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[DragonWriter]

The GPL does not say that you must give your software away free of charge

No, it says you must give one particular form of software (the source code) away free of any additional charges. The "free as in beer" thing is the source code, and its "free as in beer" rather than "free as in speech", because, unlike free speech, what you get is given by another actor given to advance their own (sometimes financial, sometimes not) interests, not a fundamental, inalienable right that isn't dependent on a license from someone else.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[pablomme]

No, it says you must give one particular form of software (the source code) away free of any additional charges. The "free as in beer" thing is the source code The way you put it is "buy one get one free", which doesn't legitimately classify as "free as in beer". Your local supermarket does it and it's not because they want to give things away. The way I prefer to see it (in a similar wording) is "buy one get the blueprints free".

what you get is given by another actor given to advance their own (...) interests Again, the idea is to advance the community's interests, not a particular person's. The GPL is about collective freedom.

not a fundamental, inalienable right that isn't dependent on a license from someone else I think you are referring to "fundamental rights" as defined legally by e.g. a country's constitution; you certainly must be since you are connecting this with the necessity of a license, which is a legal tool. That's the wrong way to look at it. Laws are not the Absolute Truth.

The question is, do you think that using/modifying/redistributing software should be considered a fundamental right (possibly in connection with free speech itself, think non-disclosure agreements)? If so, well, too bad, most legal systems don't even mention such a thing. As a solution, you'll have to use some legal workaround, which in this case takes the form of a license.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[DragonWriter]

Again, the idea is to advance the community's interests, not a particular person's.

Advancing a particular parties concept of the community interest is not advancing the community interest. Individuals choosing to use offer licensing under the GPL represent only themselves. Anyway, plenty of people issue software under Free licenses, including the GPL, not out of ideology but out of a rational assessment that that best serves their financial interests.

The question is, do you think that using/modifying/redistributing software should be considered a fundamental right (possibly in connection with free speech itself, think non-disclosure agreements)?

Whether I do or not is irrelevant; the authors of the GPL clearly do not, otherwise many provisions of the GPL would be inexplicable, particularly the distinct treatment of consumer vs. business products in the anti-tivoization provisions of the GPLv3.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[pablomme]

Advancing a particular parties concept of the community interest is not advancing the community interest. Individuals choosing to use offer licensing under the GPL represent only themselves. It sounds like you say that out of a bad experience with GPL'd software. However I don't think that is the only possible outcome. There might be abuses from the original developers, there might be abuses against the original developers (e.g. fork and forget the original project), and there might be cases of symbiosis (e.g., when Red Hat or Novell improve the Linux kernel, they are helping not only themselves, but also their rivals and the entire user base). The license is written to encourage the latter rather than any of the former.

Anyway, plenty of people issue software under Free licenses, including the GPL, not out of ideology but out of a rational assessment that that best serves their financial interests. Which is not incompatible with anything I've said. Philosophically sound, happy and shinny as it may (or may not) be, the GPL wouldn't have been adopted so widely if it wasn't of practical use.

the authors of the GPL clearly do not, otherwise many provisions of the GPL would be inexplicable, particularly the distinct treatment of consumer vs. business products in the anti-tivoization provisions of the GPLv3. The anti-tivoization clause was probably controversial enough to encourage limiting its extent to a class of products. Is this off the point, or should I understand that the GPLv3 would seem more "free" to you if this clause applied to all products, and that the GPLv2 is a perfectly "free" license in your view?

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[DragonWriter]

It sounds like you say that out of a bad experience with GPL'd software.

Well, no. What makes you think that?

However I don't think that is the only possible outcome.

I'm not describing an outcome at all, so I don't understand this response.

The anti-tivoization clause was probably controversial enough to encourage limiting its extent to a class of products. Is this off the point, or should I understand that the GPLv3 would seem more "free" to you if this clause applied to all products, and that the GPLv2 is a perfectly "free" license in your view?

I would say, rather, that the GPLv2 would seem to be closer to represent a coherent ideological view of "freedom" being advanced through the mechanism of a license, where the GPLv3 seems to be a compromise between ideologues and industrialists with very different reasons for supporting a "sticky" (to avoid the emotionally-load "v" word) open-source licensing system. Neither one is a perfect match for my idea of "freedom", though they (and other open-source licenses, including less-sticky ones) are, IMO, socially useful. As is simply making things available in the public domain. Developing a community and maintaining the open-licensed (or public domain) version is the important thing from the standpoint of keeping software useful and free, the particular license among the major kinds of open source license is probably less important. SQLite is public domain, plenty of major projects are under BSD/MIT-style licenses, and plenty are under various versions of the GPL and its cousins (LGPL, Affero, etc.) While the particular licensing model or copyright status may be important for some uses, I don't think any of them is generally superior; public domain is probably the "most free" by any reasonable definition, but that doesn't always make it the best one to use.

Re:How are GNU's definitions...

[pablomme]

Well, no. What makes you think that? Just a bad guess from your wording...

I would say, rather, that the GPLv2 would seem to be closer to represent a coherent ideological view of "freedom" being advanced through the mechanism of a license, where the GPLv3 seems to be a compromise between ideologues and industrialists with very different reasons for supporting a "sticky" (to avoid the emotionally-load "v" word) open-source licensing system. I do see the compromise, but I don't think it's a particularly big one, nor that GPLv3 is a departure from the GPLv2 philosophy. Not as much as to be incoherent with it, at least.

Neither one is a perfect match for my idea of "freedom", though they (and other open-source licenses, including less-sticky ones) are, IMO, socially useful. Note that "not a perfect match" is quite different from saying that the GPL is merely "free as in beer".

While the particular licensing model or copyright status may be important for some uses, I don't think any of them is generally superior; public domain is probably the "most free" by any reasonable definition, but that doesn't always make it the best one to use. ... I don't think we actually disagree ...

Beer isn't software

[Anonymous Coward]

There are many of us who brew beer as a hobby. We have competitions. We help each other. We trade recipes and equipment. Some of us are a bit stingy with our beer though.

There are university courses on beer making. Beer making is well understood. It is not at all like programming. All of the effort is in the programming, once the program is written, that's it, you're done. Beer recipes are fairly simple programs that don't change all that much between beers that are quite different. The goodness of the beer is determined by the skill of the brewer. Given the same recipe, two of us will produce different tasting beers.

How you heat and cool your beer determines how the different enzymes will work and that determines how the beer tastes (in addition to the obvious hops and barley). The exact temperature profile is a function of your equipment. Beer made in a large batch with steam heat and water cooling will be different from my five gallon batches.

Beer is a craft. It isn't the same as software because the same program (recipe) won't always produce the same result. The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year. Beer, on the other hand, cares when I make it. Around here, we don't brew between May and October.

Creating an open source beer project ... I don't see the point.

Re:Beer isn't software

[Tx]

Beer is a craft. It isn't the same as software because the same program (recipe) won't always produce the same result. The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year. Beer, on the other hand, cares when I make it. Around here, we don't brew between May and October.

The conditions under which the brewing occurs are part of the "program", and the same program certainly should always produce the same results. If you don't have control of some of your initial variables, then you will get varying results, whether you're talking software or beer.

Re:Beer isn't software

[wrook]

As an avid brewer, I agree with your points, but not your conclusion.

One of the biggest challenges to improving your brewing is brewing to style. But style definitions are imprecise and very subjective. That's why all the style definitions come with commercial beer reference points. Dry Irish Stout - Guinness. Bohemian Pilsner - Pilsner Urquel.

With these references, anyone who has access to commercial beer can learn more about the style. They can try to intentionally brew a beer in that style. However you're still in a bind. Let's say Fuller's London Porter is considered a reference for "London Porter" - how would I go about brewing that specific style? What grain bill should I play with? Is roast barley appropriate? Where on the hop scale should I be?

The more information I can get about a commercial beer, the better off I am when I try to make beers like it. Sure, I'm not likely to be able to make a clone without a huge amount of work. But it's a good starting point for learning.

A commercial brewer that gives up this information is inviting the amateur brewer to share in the creation process. They are saying, "Please try to make something like this." And while not the same as the 4 freedoms in free software, I find the sentiment similar.

Re:Beer isn't software

[morgan_greywolf]

Beer is a craft. It isn't the same as software because the same program (recipe) won't always produce the same result. The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year. Beer, on the other hand, cares when I make it. Around here, we don't brew between May and October.

Creating an open source beer project ... I don't see the point. A good beer recipe will often include things like how much to make (large vs. small batches), what type of equipment is known to work best, how much and how quickly to heat and cool the brew, etc.

Even armed with all of that information, no you won't necessarily get identical results -- you're talking about brew made from natural ingredients. It's like cooking. Just as you would follow a recipe for baking a cake from scratch, no cakes will be identical, but two cakes baked from the same recipe will be pretty similar. The same is true of brewing beer -- follow the same recipe and use the same or similar equipment and two brewers will get similar, but not necessarily identical results.

Sure, skill plays into it. Like cooking, it's part art and part science. But the science part is what you can open source. The rest is just up to the brewer.

And, yes, as a matter of fact, I have brewed my own beer.

Re:Beer isn't software

[Anonymous Coward]

The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year. Not if you hard coded daylight savings time.

Re:Beer isn't software

[WilyCoder]

"The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year."

I take it you haven't done parallel programming....;-)

Re:Beer isn't software

[Shagg]

One of the biggest challenges to improving your brewing is brewing to style.

It depends on what your goal is. If you want to enter a competition that scores based on adherence to style, then yes, brewing to style will improve your beer. If your goal is just to make good beer, then style doesn't really matter.

Re:Beer isn't software

[Anonymous Coward]

Rogue sells 20oz bottles that have ingredients listed on the side: malted grains and extracts used, variety of hops, etc. When I find one I like, I take it to my local brewshop (I'm still a neophyte) and we take a guess as to what the proportions should be and I go home and try it. Last one was an irish lager which would have been good if I hadn't botched the bottle conditioning...

Re:Beer isn't software

[Sax Maniac]

The variables are more complicated than you think.

Yeast is alive, and doesn't always do what you want it to do. One speck of bacteria in the wrong place can change the entire of character the batch. One generation of yeast may ferment more than the second. Different batches of grains have different yields and flavors, hops batches have different flavors and bittering strength. It's not totally reproducible, unless you can control all the microorganisms and DNA, and only the largest brewers own a yeast lab and have the knowledge to use it.

My brother-in-law is a professional brewer, and while they produce excellent results, there's always a degree of variability they have to live with and adjust to. Only the largest brewers, with a team of microbiologists, and pushing significant enough volume to blend out errors can really produce really consistent beer.

Re:Beer isn't software

[Upaut]

The most important aspect in choosing the style of beer you brew: Water. The profile of your water will impact your beer far more then the hops or the malt. Which is why traditional regional beers are just that, regional.

John Palmer's book (which the first edition is now free online for personal use... I highly suggest if you like it, you might want to buy the new edition...) Has a page on how to chart your water to the best beer it is suited for: http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

And this is one of the reasons the microbrewery across state lines might not have any issue in sharing recipes and advise, your beer, unless you open next door, will never come out the same.

Re:Beer isn't software

[Anonymous Coward]

...There are university courses on beer making... Food Science 430

microsoft

[mapleneckblues]

waiting for someone to bring microsoft into this discussion... its not a matter of if, but how and when
"1 pint ought to be enough for everyone"

Re:microsoft

[popmaker]

I think it's when they start offering "Microsoft beer (TM)", that tastes suspiciously like Open Beer, although not quite the same. And it has a small dog on the label, and every fourth can explodes when you open it.

Not to mention that the newest beer only comes in ten-liter cans and you need to buy a larger fridge to store them.

Re:microsoft

[Yetihehe]

And when you try to make your own beer, they hire Steve Donkeykong to throw barrels at you.

Re:microsoft

[ciaohound]

and there's a confusing license scheme for the various degrees of crippledness:
MS Beer Home Edition -- available only as a six-pack.
MS Small Beer Server
MS Beer Enterprise Edition
MS BeerCE -- tastes like water but at least it's potable, er, portable.

And don't forget MS Trace, for counting the number of hops.

Re:microsoft

[bytesex]

And monkeyboy shouting: Brewers Brewers Brewers ! And Bill Gates saying: 640 microliters ought to be enough for everybody. And an irritating alcohol-hole at always the same position in the can. And a EULA before you open the can (opening it, is agreeing with it) - no dispensing information about the taste or colour of it. And being only allowed to store it in an approved fridge. Ah what the hell.

Re:microsoft

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

"1 pint ought to be enough for everyone"

And just when I was looking for a way to commit karmic suicide...

Re:microsoft

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

10L gross, 500mL net. Only from Microsoft!

Re:microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad hops aren't a root. That would have made a great pun.

Re:microsoft

[The_reformant]

MS Small Beer Server

I want this product. Is it a midget waiter in a MS t-shirt?

The true spirit of FOSS

[pythonhacker]

Talk about the true "spirit" of sharing code and ideas...!

I can see it now....

[N Monkey]

Like where? A licence to mix water, sugar and yeast? That's just about the stupidest thing you could ever require. Honestly officer. I was only making some bread for my poor old granny!

Re:I can see it now....

[mgblst]

Yeah, a couple of kegs of bread.

Re:I can see it now....

[Chelloveck]

Well, Granny has bad teeth, you know, and can't chew properly. I'm just making it in liquid form so the dear sainted lady doesn't starve to death.

Re:I can see it now....

[falconwolf]

Like where? A licence to mix water, sugar and yeast? That's just about the stupidest thing you could ever require.

Honestly officer. I was only making some bread for my poor old granny!

I don't know about other countries but in the US home brewers are able to brew up to 200, or 250, gallons of beer and wine a year for personal use without any license or permit.

Falcon

Free speeches

[popmaker]

In other new, I have a number of free (as in beer) speeches I'm willing to share with you guys.

Re:Free speeches

[chriscoolc]

I stay away from the free (as in beer) speeches, especially those after which you're likely to wake up the next morning with a headache, stuck with an ugly-ass timeshare you won't be able to get rid of anytime soon.

Free (as in Beer) Beer

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Free (as in Beer) Beer.

Change your nick to GoodAnalogyGuy - there is no analogy that is not improved with a beer analoguy.

Re:Free (as in Beer) Beer

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you promise to change yours to !Whiney Mac Fanboy.

Re:Free (as in Beer) Beer

[morgan_greywolf]

Hi, I'm a Mac

You have to promise to get rid of the link to that scary, scary picture in your .sig first!!!!

strange brew that's good for you

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be Kombucha.

There are many more

[ebbe11]

Many if not most Danish home-brewers share their recipes using beercalc. There are over 8000 recipes here. Unfortunately for most of the readers on /. comments are usually in Danish.

Nothing to see here

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been home brewing for nearly 20 years.

In my experience:

1. Most brewers (home and professional) have always been willing if not eager to share their recipes with other brewers.

2. Those brewers who do zealously guard their secret recipes usually don't make very good beer, and you wouldn't want their recipes anyway.

Free as in beer

[pbaer]

Now describes both freedoms of open source programs.

License

[frisket]

How long before bottles say "Brewed Under License" referring to the GPL (GNU Pub License)?

--
Open Source Beer requires old boots...

Re:License

[falconwolf]

How long before bottles say "Brewed Under License" referring to the GPL (GNU Pub License)?

Is soda ok, will OpenCola work? Or does it have to be beer?

Falcon

Already Avaiable in Brazil

[famazza]

Since November, a brazilian brewer, Germania, is offering bottled free (as in speech) beer. The version is 3.4, and it seems to be good.

Beer Recipies & Water

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the UK there are amny book available with recepies for many 'Commercial' brews. My local Brewery will even sell you some of the very same yeast thay they use. With a bit of arm twisting, you can sometimes even buy some of the Malt they use. Hops are easily come by in any Home Brew shop.
On trips around many such establishments, you can easily glean what ration of hops : malt : etc goes in a particular beer.

So why can't you make beer with the same taste?
Water.

IMHO, this has a big effect of the actual taste of a beer. This is why regional breweries in the UK ( and other plaves) produce ales with such distinctive tastes.
Even the brewers of that apology for beer in the USA (Bud) treat the water so that wherever it is brewed it tastes the same. Then they go and ruin it by adding rice. It is not beer. I digress.

The differences in the water for beers is as important as it is for proper (Malt) Whiskies.
The peaty soft water of an Islay Malt makes a very different drink than a Highland Brand.

Now What Do We Do?

[Prototerm]

We'll never be able to explain the GPL, now that "free as in beer" is the same as "free as in speech". This is a disaster, I tell you! Dido and Enterly will be all over this, and we'll never hear the end of it.

Next thing you know, they'll open a bazaar in the local cathedral, and it'll *all* be over.

HICK!

[AndGodSed]

OOF! sho shorry... I loshed you after... after you shed 20litersh... of beersh... HAECK!

shay again pleesh... ...mmmmm...good head...

BETA TEST

[vraddict]

But wouldn't you just love to be the beta tester?

Haggis and...

[geoffrobinson]

Presbyterians. Oh, and not liking England.

Re:Haggis and...

[gstoddart]

"And what is Scotland most famous for?"

Presbyterians. Oh, and not liking England.

Don't forget kilts, golf, and some disturbing allegations about sheep. ;-)

Cheers

When you are makeing all don't put to much yeast i

[Joe The Dragon]

When you are makeing all don't put to much yeast in like the 3 stooges did.

Time is money!

[Tony]

Do you go to the movies? If so, do you factor in the price of your time along with the tickets and popcorn?

When drinking beer, do you factor in the time it takes to drink it, as well as the cost of the beer itself? How about going out to dinner? Do you tack on an additional $100/hr for your time?

How do you pay yourself? It seems like it would get a bit circular. "Hey, Self, here's the $100 I owe you for the last hour. Don't spend it all in one place, you know you have payroll coming up in an hour!"

Re:Time is money!

[Anonymous Coward]

The discussion was comparing the cost of home production to the cost of purchasing beer, not the cost of consuming beer. And yes, drinking beer consumes time which could be used in other ways. When studying economic efficiency it makes sense to think of time spent in terms of currency but that is not the only metric by which time can be valued. You are correct to think that time can be valuable based on our own satisfaction but it is still interesting to compare production costs of beer with the price we pay at the store.

Re:Time is money!

[Anonymous Coward]

People say this all the time but it really only applies in jobs where the more work you do the more you get paid and you do work more not just sit around with your spare time.

If you're just going to sit around the house at night you might as well brew beer. If brewing takes away from time you would spend working then it might make more sense to pay for it.

The probably is everyone things ALL their time is valuable when so often only a few hours a day of it actually is.

Not disagreeing with anything you said mind you, just continuing your line of thought.

Re:Time is money!

[DFJA]

When drinking beer, do you factor in the time it takes to drink it, as well as the cost of the beer itself? How about going out to dinner? Do you tack on an additional $100/hr for your time? My time costs £100 per hour, so you can be very sure that for a 20-minute pint I'm not going to be drinking some cheap, nasty rubbish. In fact the more slowly I intend to drink it, the more expensive I go. Cheap and nasty beer should only be drunk in a hurry, preferably without stopping to pay a visit to your taste buds.

Re:Time is money!

[element-o.p.]

Meh. I'm going to spend those four to eight hours next Saturday, regardless. If I enjoy brewing (and drinking) beer, then I might as well spend those four to eight hours brewing (and drinking) beer, rather than sitting on my butt in front of the tube, right?

Re:Time is money!

[The_reformant]

I have to rent the space for the barrels as well.

Am I all alone?

[filthpickle]

I worked at a liquor store as an easy 2nd job a few years ago. They sold craft beers and I tried just about every one and really enjoyed a lot of them. Still do enjoy them, but I can also drink cheap beer and still enjoy it.

Is there anyone else that likes craft beer, but still likes some domestic big brewery beer? I can't be the only one that is happy with an Aventinus, but would also be happy with a High Life. Markedly less happy, but still happy.

I can't stop drinking Oberon the last few weeks, but I went to a Derby party the other day and didn't mind at all that they only had Bud and Miller. (I should state that I don't actually like Budweiser...although I don't hate it, because there isn't enough flavor there to rise to that level...now dogfishhead 120 minute...I HATE that shit)

And from my experience at the liquor store I would also like to say to everyone that drinks craft beer or brews their own "GET OVER YOURSELVES". This may not apply to you, so disregard if it doesn't, but everyone at the store hated just about every one of the regulars that would get craft beer. They were pretty much insufferable arrogant asses to a man. Just because you don't drink light lager doesn't mean that you are a genius, and just because someone drinks Budweiser it doesn't mean they are an idiot, most people just don't care that much about it. It comes down to "this one is 9 dollars for six?, I can get 12 budweisers for that"

Maybe it was just the location, it could be that there aren't just that many craft beer drinkers around here so they developed an Us against Them attitude. There is a bar around here that has an amazing beer list, but the people that own it/hang out there are such assholes that I just don't go there. The owner has literally thrown people out for ordering a Budweiser. There is a server there who is openly rude to people that come in and have no idea what they want because they never drink that kind of beer.

Just my 2 cents.

Re:Am I all alone?

[suggsjc]

You aren't the only one. I very much enjoy a good home/craft brew. All things the same, given the choice of microbrew vs macrobrew I'd take the micro about 9 out of 10 times (the one being the case where it involved "chugging"). But things aren't always the same. While I would certainly prefer a homemade burger, there are times that I actually do crave a McDonalds burger too...but that usually happens after said "chugging" event.

Concerning the people at your brew pub, there are many ways to interpret their behavior. People always get a little defensive over something they put a lot of time and effort into. But that doesn't justify their behavior, especially toward people who may not know any better.

We all have different tastes, preferences, and knowledge. How we impart those thoughts/feelings to others are as unique and varied as the thoughts/feelings themselves. However, I would much prefer to interact with people that share my ability to discuss/analyze/compare/contrast thoughts and feelings that are different than my own rather than someone I agree with but is pompous in conveying to others.

Re:Am I all alone?

[darkfather]

You're certainly not alone. Abita's Turbo Dog from Louisiana in an english pint glass is one of the most beautiful things in the world, I even named my dog Abita (he's fast, get it?). There is nothing better than a dark, tasty pint or two on movie/video game/book night.

However, for a baseball game or penny picher night it's light American lager all the way, I even drink Coors Light at Rockies home games.

General rule: Bud Light and Bowling - one makes the other bearable

What about all the other information

[houghi]

There is much more information available out there on how to brew beer. Most of that is just plain public domain, so without the restrictions GPL gives you.

What will be next? Applepie?

Re:Missed half the point! Beer prices from FL

[b1gp0pp4]

Hola, $15 for a 24-pack is "good to above average" concerning Bud, Coors, Miller. Of course, you can always get a suitcase of Natty for ~10.99 if you've spent all your cash on tuition/hookers.

I am sure..

[consonant]

there's a "Homebrew Club" joke in here somewhere..

Free as in beer?

[ChameleonDave]

This sort of thing just shows how stupid the whole "free as in beer" v "free as in speech" thing is.

Beer is not free "as in beer". You have the pay for the stuff. It is, on the other hand, something that anyone can make and sell in a traditional manner without worrying about infringing any sort of patent or intellectual property belonging to the ancient people who invented it.

Speech is not free "as in speech". If I go and write a story about wizards called Harry and Dumbledore, I'll get sued. If I lie to your boss that you've been stealing from work and you get fired, I'll get sued.

We don't need such weird terms. "Free" in the first sense is simply an abbreviation of "free of charge", so just don't abbreviate it if you want to be clear. The Latin term "gratis" is also well-known in English.

If you absolutely insist on a term to specifically say the opposite, then "liber" is the perfect Latin counterpart to "gratis". There is also the derivative "liberal" which has several senses connected to freedom and generosity, and would be quite sufficient.

Re:Free as in beer?

[Vegeta99]

Beer isn't free?

You must be a real dick or something, because I know people (even my bartender at my favorite bar!) that every once in a while give me free beer out of the goodness of their hearts. That's Free As In Beer software - they're giving it away, even though it may have value.

Re:Free as in beer?

[Anonymous Coward]

The sayings "free as in beer" and "free as in speech" aren't implying that beer is somehow inherently gratis and speech is somehow inherently liber. The meaning of the saying is simply this: "free" as the word is understood to mean when used next to the word "beer", as in the phrase "free beer"; vs. "free" as the word is understood to mean when used next to the word "speech", as in the phrase "free speech".

Of course, the above is quite verbose, so over the years it has been shortened to the colloquial "free as in speech vs. free as in beer".

Re:Free as in beer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Although I agree with libre and gratis, the rest of your post seems to stem from a misunderstanding.

"Free as in beer" means free as in the "free" you would mean if you said "free beer". Anyone offering free beer would mean the beer is gratis. No one is suggesting beer is always/usually gratis though.

The same thing goes for "free as in speech". No one is suggesting that all speech is free. They mean that type of free implied in the phrase "free speech".

The terms are unwieldy, but good luck trying to get people to use the Latin.

Re:Free as in beer?

[ABoerma]

There is also the derivative "liberal" which has several senses connected to freedom and generosity ...and a different meaning on either side of the pond.

Re:Free as in beer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus Christ you're thinking too much into it, although I guess if that's what it takes to get the karma around here... Anyway:

What does "free beer!" bring to mind?

What does "free speech!" bring to mind?

That's all.

Re:Free as in beer?

[falconwolf]

There is also the derivative "liberal" which has several senses connected to freedom and generosity

...and a different meaning on either side of the pond.

That depends. Though I live on the west side of the pond, in the US, when using "liberal" what I mean is Classical Liberal, ie liberty and small government. And it riles me when others say liberal but mean socialist. Hillary isn't liberal, she's a socialist or authoritarian. And scares me.

Falcon

Speaking of Collaboration...

[siwelwerd]

Slightly off topic, but close enough. Two microbreweries, Avery and Russian River were both producing beers called "Salvation". So instead of suing each other, they got together and blended the two beers and started marketing it as "Collaboration not Litigation". Great beer, great story, and the proceeds are going towards an educational trip to Belgium for the brewers.

Poor analogy

[Alarindris]

I would think beer = running OS, ingredients + recipe = source code. Let me know when the ingredients are free.

Re:Poor analogy

[Xiph]

The same day electricity and components become free.

(Hint: When the revolution comes!)

Sometimes

[rhombic]

Here in San Diego the local Costco branches carry several of the Stone brews (from Escondido). You can tour their facility (& get Free Beer), it's definitely a Micro. Make some damn fine ales, Levitation is fantastic.

Re:Sometimes

[ushering05401]

Stone is getting out of the micro category. I've seen it being peddled in some New England liquor outlets, which is wide distribution for a microbrew.

That being said, their third anniversary bash was the most satisfying brew trip I have taken... I still have the green and gold bottle from their anniversary recipe sitting on a shelf in my workspace.

artisinal beers are easier

[garyrich]

This is largely a beer style issue. If you truly love Budweiser or some other modern light lager - it is difficult and expensive to match them. The style is largely designed as an end point in the optimization of very large scale brewing. One simple example: it's nearly impossible to duplicate the very very pale color of Budweiser. You need to handle everything with great delicacy to avoid maillard reactions. The late Doug "Dougweiser" King got as close as anyone in trying to duplicate American mass lager and found out just how hard it is to do small scale.

If you really want a bud - it's much cheaper to go to the local Piggly Wiggly.

If you really like artisanal beer style - you are in much better shape. Belgian ales, biÃre de garde, etc. These are styles that come from small scale origins. They are hard to scale up to mega-brew scale so they tend to be very expensive.

Win! I can make a darn good Belgian dubble style beer for about 1/10 what I can buy it for. It's actually a pretty easy style to get close to. You can even use cheaper american berley and hops and make a less authentic but darn good beer.

Ale isn't Beer

[Myrddin Wyllt]

Strictly speaking, you can't make beer without hops; a brew with water, malt and yeast is an ale.

(I know current usage has removed this distinction, but I haven't been anally nit-picking for hours and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms.)

At various times, English ALE brewers were specifically forbidden from using hops in their brews, although there were no such restrictions for BEER brewers. This is often misrepresented as a total ban on hops in English brewing, usually attributed to Henry VI or Henry VIII.

Re:Ale isn't Beer

[falconwolf]

Strictly speaking, you can't make beer without hops; a brew with water, malt and yeast is an ale.

Unfortunately most people in the US don't know what the differences between ale, beer, bitter, lager, and stout among others are. Later in the summer or early fall I want to make something, other than Framboise I don't know what to call them, whatever with blueberries and rhubarb from my garden and chocolate. Say a 2 gallon batch of each to see how they come out.

Falcon

Re:Ale isn't Beer

[This Rhino Flies]

Thanks for being anal, by the way, it makes this place a bit more interesting. If you are correct (honestly, haven't checked), and hops have been banned in ales, banned at various in the past, quite a few ales do in fact have hops. I believe the main differentiator between lager beer and ale is the usage of bottom or top fermenting yeast and fermentation temperature.

Recipes are Free Anyway!

[Brandybuck]

Recipes are free anyway! They are not covered by copyright. The actual written expression of the recipe might be, but the underlaying factual list of ingredients and methods are not. Historically some brewers kept their recipes secret, but they are the exception.

Free brewing recipes are not only available, they are extremely common. This is a non-story about as exciting as reporting that dog bites man.

p.s. To help create your own recipes, you can use my Free Software QBrew to get your started.

homebrewing

[falconwolf]

hops for a single brew cost about $8

I can buy hops as low as US$2. Or as much as $40.

add in about $4 for CO2 and gas

Why in the world does anyone who homebrews need to pay for CO2? Fermentation creates the CO2 for you. Yeast takes it's food, broken down starches and sugars, consumes it and makes alcohol and CO2.

there is an initial outlay, lets be generous and say you got a keg system with 2 kegs a filter CO2 regulator and all the bits and pieces.

I can buy a basic kit for starting brewing for $60 and it last for years. My "new" kit, which includes a glass carboy as a second fermenter, is more than 10 years old. As for kegs, I bottle which I can get for $2 a bottle, I can buy a keg for $30. Of course the kegging eq costs more.

Falcon

Oh, though Midwest, where the links go to, takes orders online and ships, the brick and mortar store is only a few miles from me.

Re:homebrewing

[ncc74656]

add in about $4 for CO2 and gas

Why in the world does anyone who homebrews need to pay for CO2?

Because forced carbonation is faster, more reliable, and more predictable than bottle conditioning? I have a 2-year-old wee heavy in bottles that's still flat, even after adding more yeast. I've never had problems with my force-carbonated beers.

Kegging also beats the snot out of sanitizing, filling, and capping bottles. You could "keg-condition" in the same way you'd bottle-condition, but since you already have carbon dioxide on hand for serving, why not use it for carbonating as well? On the rare occasions that I need my beer in bottles, I can fill as many as I need with the counter-pressure filler.

Re:homebrewing

[falconwolf]

Because forced carbonation is faster, more reliable, and more predictable than bottle conditioning?

I prefer to age my beer at least a week, though I tended to wait a month or more. And I've never had a flat beer, I have however had blowouts where the cap blew off because of too much pressure. I used to make soda as well and I'd use empty 2 liter bottles, some of those bottles would swell up big.

Falcon

Its hard to even reach the break even.

[falconwolf]

It may be hard to break even in the EU but in the States not so. Sure, you can buy el cheapo brews for less than it costs to brew your own, but the better brews cost more.

Falcon

making your own

[falconwolf]

It would appear that your interests are more lended towards cost, which I definitely can respect that... In fact, that is what I enjoy the most about the beer making community versus the wine making community....

And what if you make both? I've made beer and wine as well as mead and sake. If I had the space I might have also setup a still.

Falcon

cost of brewing your own

[falconwolf]

throw on top of that a $10 package of yeast

Why do you buy new yeast every tyme? If you make the same style each tyme you can create a large yeast starter then divide it. Say make enough starter for 5 5 gallon batches. Divide it into 5 starters, and use one of then. Then the other four can be frozen.

I tend to spend $50-$60 on a batch, though I could probably get that down some if I ever made a beer with an OG of under 1.050.

The only tyme I spent that much was the first tyme I brewed, when I bought a compleat equipment kit. I realize the price can be that high to make a premium beer with premium ingredients but it doesn't need to be so expensive.

Falcon

Re:cost of brewing your own

[siwelwerd]

Why do you buy new yeast every tyme? If you make the same style each tyme you can create a large yeast starter then divide it

I don't brew the same style every time. What fun is that? With over 80 styles to choose from, that would really limit my brewing.

Re:cost of brewing your own

[falconwolf]

I don't brew the same style every time. What fun is that? With over 80 styles to choose from, that would really limit my brewing.

You don't have to make just one style of beer though. I haven't brewed in, too long for me, years but this summer I want to start again. At first I'll start with canned malt kits but I'll also want to try others. For instance I'll be growing blueberries, peppers, and rhubarb in my garden and I want to make beer with each of these. I'll also want to make some mead. I may be able to make 2 or 3 batches of 2 gallons with each one.

Why only 2 gallons? Because I'm alone and I don't drink too much. I can make one batch a week during the summer and it'll last me the rest of the year.

Falcon

Only on /....

[prestomation]

....can you compare beer and OSS..

cheese

[falconwolf]

I've gotta try making cheese out of leftover milk.. sometimes I buy a gallon and just never seem to use it.

For a soft spreadable cheese heat milk until it just starts boiling then add lemon juice. Let it cool then strain it with cheese cloth. You can use as is or add herbs and such. And the whey when chilled is a good refreshment. Preferably the milk is raw though. Good luck finding any raw milk though, it's illegal in some places.

Falcon

Re:cheese

[Reziac]

That sounds simple enough, and probably very good as a spread, with appropriate herbs or whatever. Do the lemons have to be particularly acid? (Hmm... lemon pepper or better yet lime pepper as the seasoning!)

Raw milk won't keep as long as I need it to, and is WAY too expensive around here, if you can find it (not sure if you can anymore -- but specialty milk runs about 4x the cost of regular milk). But I've heard about adding buttermilk and heating it for a while to make a sort of cottage cheese. Should try experimenting with that and the lemon trick and see what develops. Thanks!

Re:cheese

[falconwolf]

That sounds simple enough, and probably very good as a spread, with appropriate herbs or whatever. Do the lemons have to be particularly acid? (Hmm... lemon pepper or better yet lime pepper as the seasoning!)

It's the acid that allows or makes the curd separate from the whey, so the more acidic the better I's say, up to a point at least. You can also use lime juice, which I prefer anyway.

Raw milk won't keep as long as I need it to, and is WAY too expensive around here, if you can find it (not sure if you can anymore

How long do you need it for? When I made cheese I'd start making within hours of getting the milk. As for Raw milk, it is illegal in some states, and in Canada. But as some of the links show people are pushing to have it made legal.

Falcon

Re:cheese

[Reziac]

I don't drink milk anymore, just keep it on hand for whatever cooking needs it. So it needs to keep about a month. Since a gallon at Sam's or Costco costs the same as a half-gallon (or less) at the grocery, and keeps a good 2-3 weeks longer, I buy those gallon jugs (and freeze part if I have room in the freezer)... but the downside is that the tail end frequently goes to waste toward the end of its shelf life. If some of it became cheese instead, that would be a Good Use for it. Hence my interest.

Ah, the more acid the more clabbered, yeah. So green limes or really sour lemons or maybe even vinegar would work.

Will have to find a sour lemon seed to plant, I guess. The lemons I can get for free are fairly sweet, and the climate here rots fruit too fast for buying bulk (my shopping philosophy: if you can't buy it at Sam's or Costco, you can't buy it :) I had a lime but it winterkilled (cuz it wasn't own-root; grown from seed are MUCH more hardy), and it made fruit that was so sweet it was gaggy!!

Samual Adams Brewery

[falconwolf]

Sam Adams makes beers that are much closer in quality to so-called "microbrews"

Samual Adams is or was a microbrewery. I pretty much like it, however a few years ago I tried an Octoberfest brew they had and thought it was terrible. I bought a 12 pack, opened one bottle and gave the rest of it away.

Falcon

200 gallons

[falconwolf]

Only 200 gallons per calendar year? Well, I'll be sticking with commercial beer then. I can drink 200 gallons per calendar year standing on my head.

200 gallons in a home with 2 or more adults, only 100 if you live alone. One hundred is more than enough for me.

Falcon

home distilling

[falconwolf]

How nifty. I hope it passes, although it will have no bearing on me, at least in the short term, as I live in Australia.

I've heard it said quite a bit on /. that what happens in the US makes it's way to Australia, and Canada, so maybe within a few years you'll be able to home distill as well.

Falcon

Re:home distilling

[zsau]

It depends on the direction of the change. Making laws tighter, yeah, sure, because they get written into treaties (copyright), or because politicians like power (terrism!). But we still lack such novelties as freedom of speech.

If you like hot sauce, and are ever near Ottawa

[falconwolf]

Ottawa is north of Windsor isn't it? I've driven from Windsor to New London and along the North Shore of Lake Superior in Minnesota to Thunder Bay but that's it.

They even sell some pepper extract

Yea, that's what Dave's Insanity Sauce is, an extract. Peppers themselves do not get that hot, on the Scoville Scale Habaneros and Naga Jolokia peppers are among the hottest peppers, while I've eaten habaneros I first heard of Naga Jolokia peppers a month or two ago in "Chile Pepper" magazine. Today I bought some habanero pepper plants for my garden, now if only I can find Naga Jolokia plants.

I only wish they hadn't moved their shop out to the very edge of the city. They used to have a nice shop located downtown, and it was nice to be able to pick up a bottle of hot sauce on the weekend.

Perhaps they moved because of rising property values, or to expand.

Falcon

Oh, we have a number of shops that sale nothing but pepper and hot sauces and paraphernalia around where I live too. I used to like going into them, they usually offer samples, and ask for the hottest sauce they had so I could try it. "This isn't hot", I can't say that now. Falcon

I don't drink milk anymore

[falconwolf]

just keep it on hand for whatever cooking needs it

Basically the same here, I used to drink half gallon or more of milk a day. But all I drink it is with my espresso. Once in a while I use milk when cooking but not much.

Will have to find a sour lemon seed to plant, I guess.

Lemon trees are relatively cold intolerant. Even in Florida farmers put out oil burners in groves during the winter in case the temp drops too far. The same with oranges and other citrus fruits.

and the climate here rots fruit too fast for buying bulk (my shopping philosophy: if you can't buy it at Sam's or Costco, you can't buy it :)

I too like to buy in bulk and shop at both Costco and Sam's. However I also try to guy organic food as much as I can, and I haven't seen any at either place. It's been a while since I've been to Sam's and Walmart has started carrying some so Sam's may also now.

I had a lime but it winterkilled (cuz it wasn't own-root; grown from seed are MUCH more hardy)

Was a branch grafted onto root stock?

Falcon

Re:I don't drink milk anymore

[Reziac]

A lot of people suck down milk like there's no tomorrow as kids, then lose their taste for it as adults. That was me, all right! Also, I only like it when it's VERY fresh. I grew up with that very morning's milk delivered in glass bottles to your doorstep, and I think back-then they also didn't skim the cream quite as precisely down to 4%, so it was richer. What's now sold as half-and-half tastes more to me like what milk oughta taste like.

Lemon trees grown from seed can actually be VERY cold-hardy. We had some outdoors in Great Falls, Montana (they never bloomed, but they survived!) and a friend told me of one that was a great producer in Bozeman MT (with considerably colder winters than GtF -- down to -65F!!) Orange producers in NorCal have also found that trees from seed (own-root) are much hardier than grafted trees. Why this is I don't know, but remember the rootstock used for grafting is selected for disease resistance and because it defines the size the grafted part grows to, not so much for hardiness.

My potted lime and lemon trees were grafted, and I think they actually winterkilled because of the +118F summer before (which killed my lawn). The previous winter, the silly lime tree bloomed all winter. Next time, I'll do seeds... was impatient at the time so bought trees already to blooming age. *sigh*

Hmm... remembering that the limes were as sweet as wine grapes, I'm wondering if they coulda been made into lime wine? Sounds tasty, eh? :)

I don't do "organic food", and my biochemist neuron goes ROTFL every time I hear the term... show me the food that's inorganic? ;)