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New Linux Distribution — Exherbo, Announced
An anonymous reader writes "Former Gentoo developer Bryan Østergaard recently announced a new linux distribution aptly named Exherbo. The distribution, which has been underway for a couple of months and is based on ideas and experiences from his long work with Gentoo, features a new packaging format and several subprojects, such as a redesigned init system. Currently no installation medium is available but their package tree is public for the daring ones who want to play with the upcoming distribution. The developers strongly discourage any serious use though, as it's still highly experimental."
A new package format. Just what we need. ... Oh well must be a slow day.
Man I have to admit that after reading the site I really want noting to do with this distro. Why is it even on Slashdot?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
"aptly named Exherbo" I've read both FAs and I can't see why. Am I missing something obvious?
Seriously, they treat this thing like they're trying to hype it. "It's not ready for users, not even developers!" The only thing it's ready for is Guatemalan Insane Asylum Inmates! Avert your eyes!
It is funny that they claim more progress working on this for six months than working on Gentoo for four years. Because of bickering and criticism. I can totally believe that. I wish them tons of success!
My work here is dung.
Sheesh, don't we have enough non-BSD non-SYSV unix init systems yet? Solaris has their own, Mac OS X has a different one, and I think I recall hearing some other distro changed theirs as well. This fragmentation is irritating for sysadmins and gains little. Have these people looked at the other systems out there (Sun's, Apple's, etc) and seen what needs of theirs are not met? Perhaps extending one of these would be worth considering...
Altho honestly, I find SysV style init to work just fine.
Yeah. That's right. Aptly named. Because boy, when I heard it described, "exherbo" just jumped out at me.
Yahoo! Pipes are awesome. How awesome? http://pipes.yahoo.com/jesdynf/slashdot
... is not going to come from this.
I'd like to see the rationale for creating yet another new packaging system. What's wrong with the current ways, and what will the new way fix?
It might be worth checking out just for that!
OK, I don't need to try it. However, I'm curious about one thing:OK, wikipedia has no clue what an "Exherbo" is. What is an "Exherbo" and why is it such an apt name? I don't speak Klingon, are there any Klingons here that can explain this to me?
From TFA I would guess that "Exherbo" means "fuck you" in Swahili?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
.. for a new Linux packaging format?
Well?
[....]
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Nope. All the other 500 previous distros weren't build properly, but this one will be. Mark their words.
It's not that we hate you (unless we do). It's just that we have nothing to offer you, and you have nothing to offer us. They don't have a finished product. They don't even have a product yet. There is nothing to see, and they say it as well. Post this on slashdot when there is something to see. Then they will be happy about the traffic and the press, but now it's just a link to a page that says that maybe, one day, there will be yet another linux distro that wants to make everything better and nicer than the current Big Players(tm).
And they want their headline back.
Exherbo apparently means "to weed" in Latin...
Well, that's refreshing. Maybe the gang got some hints on PR from Stone Brewing Company.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
It's really a shame for F/OSS that, time and time again, there is such a huge duplication of effort and half-assed half-finished projects lying around in the junkyard of the Open Source cemetery.
And once again someone falls prey to a common misconception: F/OSS is not a monolith. If these guys didn't have the option of having their own sandbox to play in then what makes you think they'd be compelled to play in someone else's? The way this will more than likely shakeout is that fifty or so people will use this for awhile. Maybe it'll be a bit more popular if the primary devs have more stature than I'm giving them credit for.
These guys will get to have their fun and most everybody else will use an established distro. And that isn't to say good won't come of it. If they have good ideas, the bigger distros might adopt them. If they have REALLY good ideas they may supplant Gentoo among that crowd of people. Bugfixes may also go to upstream projects.
I know this is weird idea to someone accustomed to being served what they think they want from proprietary software houses but this is nothing but an exercise of freedom. Others are free to use what they make or not. What would you propose? Some sort of law saying that henceforth no one may attempt to start a BSD or Linux distribution?
The F/OSS world operates on a form of street-cred. These guys will either get it or not. It won't cause any sort of actual problem either way.
But does it run Linux?
From TFA:
absolutely nothing works
So, no. It doesn't run Linux.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Most of the minor distros are specialty items like Knoppix or toolkits like Trinity Rescue CD. Having more of such isn't going to hurt anything. Besides, projects like this are a good way of trying out radical ideas without breaking anything. And I suspect the answer to "not teaming up" is that it seems that many developers would rather be Chiefs than common braves.
No. You're getting modded up due to the "there are too many Linux distros" groupthink (that you're completely participating in).
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
...another post asking do we really need another Linux distro?
I'll probably get modded down by the groupthink mods around here (hint: metamods: moderate any downmods as unfair)
You're given certain comments to metamoderate, but in the event I metamod whatever mod you get (so far they haven't modded it) will determine how I metamoderate. You simply asked a question so I can't see why anyone would downmod. It is an honest question afaict.
is this what the Linux user community needs?
No, but it may be what the Linux developer community needs. There could be some really cool code coming out of this that may benefit the user community in the future, but right now it's for developers only. If your hobby is hacking new code, this might be for you.
It's really a shame for F/OSS that, time and time again, there is such a huge duplication of effort and half-assed half-finished projects lying around in the junkyard of the Open Source cemetery.
Um, ok maybe I can see why you might get downmodded. I see no "junkyard" nor "cemetary", what Linux projects have died recently? A halfassed half-finished project deserves to die, but that's part of the open source process. And there's a "huge duplication of effort" having Windows, Apple, Solaris, etc, compete; or Ford, Chevy, Toyota, K.I.A. etc. as well. The difference is that if Ford invents something, Chevy's not going to have it in their cars unless they can come up with the same functionality without infringing Ford's patent. If some cool new thing comes of this, you may well see it un Red Hat or Mandriva shortly. That's one of open source's strengths.
I don't see "duplication of effort" as a weakness in either open source or closed.
As to junkyards, you might want to read a couple of articles I wrote a few years ago when I was at K5, Useful Dead Technologies and the sequel Good Riddance to Bad Tech.
Necessiy isn't the mother of invention, it's the father. Hard work is the mother. Do people need more than one mother?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
>>> Exherbo is a distribution designed for people who know what they're doing with Linux.
Are you so badass that gentoo is like ripping candy out of newb babie hands? Exherbo!
>>> Although it shares some code with Gentoo, and although many concepts are similar, and although many of the people involved were or are Gentoo developers, most Exherbo code is rewritten from scratch.
We know way more than those Gentoo tards will ever know.
>>> Exherbo is not, at the moment, a user-targeted distribution.
Come on... you want it, don't you? You want to be so badass to use my awesome distro, to be the most leetest person ever.
>>> It's not that we think that Gentoo is bad.
Gentoo is wretched for our godly needs.
>>> OK, I Want to Try Exherbo
I am high as a kite.
>>> Right now, all we care about is getting it into a fit state for a small number of developers.
We're announcing this publicly because we have no idea what product we're presenting, but we'll make it sound fucking awesome compared to everything else, plus way wore leetsauce, so we can get some actual developers to contribute something useful to make our project objectively good.
>>> The above paragraph does not apply if your pet project is something we find interesting.
Again, if you have anything that will make this distro more than a publicity stunt, for the love of god, please let us know.
>>> It's not that we hate you (unless we do).
Forgot how much better we are then you? You did? OK, in conclusion, fuck you.
Credit where credit's due: John Gruber and Mark Pilgrim
The whole point in GPL style freedom is that people are free to write another linux distro, if they feel that way inclined, and free to duplicate effort. It is duplication of effort that produces multiple projects which do the same thing, which gives choice, which I believe to be a good thing. If it wasn't for duplication of effort, we wouldn't have GNOME, and KDE, and XFCE, and enlightenment. If you happened to not like the one window manager we did have, tough luck. We're not all part of some big company, so you can't just tell us to all follow what guidelines you want to. This distro really isn't designed to be the next big thing, or to help out the community. You talk about half assed half finished projects as though they are a bad thing. I find, what many people often consider to be an unfinished hack of a tool will do a particular job perfectly. Take this in contrast to something like openoffice, or firefox, which are often considered to be "finished", production, mature products, but are actually completely bloated and not that great at doing what they're supposed to. Really, it is this sort of niche itch scratching that has made linux and everything to do with it what it is. If you happen to want to devote yourself to helping other people, and the "community", then feel free to, but don't start trying to stop other people from coding something for themselves, or a small user group. Another hint: don't try to tell the mods how to think - if they mod down your post, don't whine about it, you deserved it.
-- All your booze are belong to us.
From the looks of this it's just a sandbox for a few guys to try out some ideas. It'll probably never amount to anything other than hopefully some cool new ideas. Those ideas will probably then be reincorporated into Gentoo or some other projects.
The major problem seems to have been that they couldn't try out their ideas in Gentoo mostly due to political problems, so they made another Gentoo-esque platform they could directly control.
"That's what I dislike about the FOSS attitude. If we had one hundred developers working on one project rather than one hundred projects by one developer each, then we'd see much better quality software."
Uhh no, we'd see one project doing one thing well, and 99 unresolved problems.
Or maybe we'd see a hundred people yelling at each other (multiply by 2.5 and you have gentoo)
Do we need more of this elitistic bullshit?
...
...
...
Exherbo is not, at the moment, a user-targeted distribution. It supports packages that the people involved find interesting or useful; it probably does not support your favourite desktop environment or applications. That kind of thing will come later there are plenty of other options for users who want a distribution that does everything badly rather than a few things well.
It's not that we think that Gentoo is bad. It's just that we think we can do something that suits our needs better. We've tried, without success, to do this using Gentoo. Unfortunately, Gentoo has serious shortcomings in several areas that stopped this from being a viable long-term approach (...) Portage. (...) Gentoo management. (...) QA. (...) The users. (...) Lack of overall design and direction.
Thank God there's much more to that distro you don't think is bad at all.
- OK, I Want to Try Exherbo.
- No you don't.
- Yes I Do
- OK, maybe you do, but we don't particularly want you to try it because we don't want to deal with you whining when you find that absolutely nothing works. (...) We don't provide packages for lots of things you consider critical. A lot of the packages we do provide don't work. A lot of the packages that worked five minutes ago all just broke because we just decided to redesign several large features. We don't provide support. We don't provide install media. We don't provide a usable init system.
- But I'm a Developer, and I Want to Try Exherbo
- Well, you know who to talk to if you need to be told where to find the shiny things. And no, we don't want to use Exherbo to implement your pet project. Especially not if it's a stupid pet project. Go and inflict it upon Gentoo, they think that porting ebuilds to run on SunOS 2 ksh under Cygwin is a great idea.
Wow! It sounds great! Do i need a secret decoder ring to read the sourcecode?
Seriously. I'm a Gentoo user and this sounded like a great thing to peek into - Gentoo is not without its share of things to fix/improve. But come on. What exactly are they announcing here? A distro tailored for a handful of users (which is nice) that we can't download, try or even ask about.
In Conclusion: It's not that we hate you (unless we do). It's just that we have nothing to offer you, and you have nothing to offer us.
Sounds like it's coming along great, eh? Do us a favor and make your work public when, you know, it is useable by the public. Or even watchable.
The guy wants to experiment with a new init system and a new packaging system. He's put this out as a "distro" so that anyone else who wants to can help out, make suggestions, whatever.
His work might end up "half-assed half-finished", or it might get incorporated into something larger which changes the way all the current big name distros work. If we are truly championing OSS, we should rather wish this guy well. He's doing exactly what everyone is always talking about, changing the source to suit himself and trying to learn how it is all put together.
An IT & FOSS guy got his ego dented?!? Say it isn't so! That never happens!
FOSS people are the most altruistic and saintly people EVAAR! Why, they give their software away! They give their source away! They work for free much of the time! How dare you criticize these saints! They give us an option against Microsoft the EVIL that will run on Intell/PC products! They give us a way to save old and outdated computers that will go into a landfill!
How dare you insult those people!!
oh, and do you have trouble with hobbyists making steam engines or kites or ships in a bottle? who the fuck are you to tell people how or with who they spend their spare time coding? anyone can fork their own distro or open source project, if you don't like it fuck off.
I'll start by saying that I'm an unashamed Gentoo fanboy, so mod as appropriate, but Mr. Østergaard seems to have forgotten to mention what he dislikes about Gentoo in either his blog entry or on exherbo.org. He says that Gentoo developers, users, Fanboys, and community are bad, but the most specific technical comment he made was a criticism that someone undertook "porting ebuilds to run on SunOS 2 ksh under Cygwin", which is apparently bad. He simply says of portage that it's "broken and unmaintainable", but he doesn't say why. He says Exherbo option handeling is "much improved" compared to Gentoo's USE flags, but again doesn't say what's wrong with USE flags. (I get around unintended consequences simply by enabling/disabling things on a package-by package basis, so if he's talking about that...).
I've been using gentoo quite happily for almost 3 years now on various servers as well as desktops for multiple users (no, I don't `emerge world` nightly), so I'm quite interested in what's wrong with portage (It's a godsend from my perspective) and the rest of gentoo. Seriously, I'd really like to know what's going to bite me in the arse here. But alas, Mr. Østergaard criticisms of Gentoo were far to vague and his design goals for Exherbo were equally vague and silly. Maybe he, or someone other than than the Trolls, other distro fanboys, and non-techy former Gentoo users who got burnt and should never have used it in the first place can please point me in the direction of some unbias and fair evaluations of Gentoo's strengths and weaknesses.
While some points made are valid (eg portage, along with most other package managers sucks, and Gentoo's management is inefficient) it seems like the distro is completely misguided.
If anything, we need to be focusing on user-friendly *nixes, not developer torture - less still something more hellish than Gentoo. If someone desperately wants a system like this, they can read LFS. Or strip down a Gentoo install. That way, they're also more likely to get something that's more suited to their needs. And isn't written by someone who looks like they'd happily eat n00b stew for lunch.
Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
find -name "*base*" -exec chown us {} \; ; ln -s
You might have get a few more polished products that way but you would get anything other then unimaginative copies of other software and obvious evolutionary improvements on it. FOSS already has this problem in spades. Why? because most people are volunteers to be happy they need to feel like they have some sort of input. The result is everything is design by committee and therefore "safe" choices are the only ones that ever get made. This is not a bad thing for a mature project but its not good for young ones working in spaces that offer real chance for innovation.
The "managed" pure source based distribution is not a solved problem yet. Projects like this are good not because many people will use it, but because they won't. These guys get to go off and do there own thing which will be more likely to make them happy and productive then anything else. They won't really piss off any of the other people working on the Gentoo project because they are not directly working with them any more, and end users won't be subject to their untested whims. Mean while people will be watching. If, and it is a big if I admit, they put something things together that really work then the parent project will be free the cherry pick their good ideas and roll them back in. If they decide to use enough of them these guys may volunteer to rejoin the project as maintainers of their contributions.
This fork and merge pattern is really the place where FOSS does produce innovative new ideas. Its the people who think like you that case all the YetAnotherXXXXX FOSS projects.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
man, I feel like mold.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yeah, FOSS developers should all be slaves to a "movement" rather than geeks that like to scratch their own itches. They should all be forced to code what the community needs rather than what they want to work on. That will do wonders for incentivizing people to code on FOSS software.
The whole point of FOSS in the first place is to give people the freedom to do EXACTLY what these guys are doing. Pissing on that is pissing on the philosophical basis of and reason for sharing code.
These guys are experimenting with ideas that are too disruptive for existing distributions to experiment on themselves, and they wouldn't be able to get anywhere with due to the inertia involved in a larger project. The lead has already said he's made more progress on his ideas in months than he was able to in years as part of Gentoo. If the ideas end up being valuable, then other distributions can run with proven solutions. If they don't end up working out, then what's the big deal? - the community now knows that the idea wasn't that good, and some coders learnt a huge amount playing around with their fun new ideas.