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Ancestry Surprises From New Genetics Analysis Method

An anonymous reader commends a recently published study involving a new way to analyze genetic variation in human populations (full article published in PLOS Genetics): "[S]cientists from Ireland, the UK and the US analysed 2,540 genetic markers in the DNA of almost 1,000 people from around the world whose genetic material had been collected by the Human Genome Diversity Project. The results include a number of surprises... the Yakut people of northern Siberia were found to have received a significant genetic contribution from the population of the Orkney Islands, which lie off the coast of Scotland... there must have been a period of gene flow from northern Europe to east Asia. The study also shed light on the peopling of the Americas, as the results suggest that the native populations of north and south America have different origins."

223 comments

  1. The N./S. America thing has been controversial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A lot of people didn't want to give up on the idea that the arctic bridge was the only way people got to the Americas, when it made much more sense that some people could've traveled the ocean to settle here.

    1. Re:The N./S. America thing has been controversial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mormons have been saying this for nearly 200 years. No, they don't claim that they're the only people that arrived there, only a portion.

    2. Re:The N./S. America thing has been controversial by somersault · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you believe in the bliblical flood, then you would also believe that the survivors all got off in the same location. Duh.. the only way you could use this to explain the biblical flood was if their analysis showed that we are all descendants of one man (Noah).

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:The N./S. America thing has been controversial by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      They were stopped by the EVIL STATUES!

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    4. Re:The N./S. America thing has been controversial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evolution also indicates a common ancestor (for all species, no less).

    5. Re:The N./S. America thing has been controversial by Rams�s+Morales · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love it when the books have to be redone to fit new evidence. Now I'm waiting for genetic evidence to settle the question of multiple or single origin.

    6. Re:The N./S. America thing has been controversial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum....

  2. Wow! by mrbluze · · Score: 5, Funny

    there must have been a period of gene flow from northern Europe to east Asia. That was one helluva Khyber toss!
    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
  3. Confirmation of previous theories by steelfood · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, there's anthropological evidence that there were several migrations from Asia to the Americas, namely, two island-hopping sea routes and one over the land bridge in the north. This just sort of confirms this idea.

    --
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    1. Re:Confirmation of previous theories by William+Robinson · · Score: 3, Funny

      I knew my boss had something to do with cannibals.

  4. Maps of human travel on earth by Frekko · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This story sparked my interest so I searched for a while on the internet to find some maps of what the world looked like back in the ages and where evidence of people has been found linked with DNA evidence of how people actually have moved.
    I sadly came up with nothing... anyone who knows where to find anything like this?

    1. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by ya+really · · Score: 5, Informative

      Probably one of the best sources I can think of off the top of my head is the book, Guns Germs and Steel. The book gives a great in depth look at the origins of man, and the crops/domesticated animals we eat as well as lots of maps showing movements through the ages. It's a pretty long read though, but well worth it. The book also goes well into why the decendants of those from Europe and Asia control the world today and not those in Africa, North America or Oceana.

    2. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by ResidntGeek · · Score: 3, Informative

      Have you checked out Movie S1 in the current article? It's an animation of how people moved based on DNA evidence.

      Also, the world didn't look any different geologically, if that's what you mean by "what the world looked like back in the ages". The timescales of human migrations are far smaller than those of geological processes.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    3. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by BungaDunga · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except for the Bering land bridge. That's a function of sea level, but the world did look quite a bit different. Lots more ice around, less water.

    5. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      This story sparked my interest so I searched for a while on the internet to find some maps of what the world looked like back in the ages and where evidence of people has been found linked with DNA evidence of how people actually have moved.

      I sadly came up with nothing... anyone who knows where to find anything like this? Just RTFM Figure 4. Summary of inferred history of the peopling of the world
    6. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Rashdot · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      This is not the sig you're looking for.
    7. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, actually it basically says something along the lines of: "If you were here and we were there, then you would be violent, ruthless, greedy, hypocritical filthy diseased bastards who wiped us out and took our land, so therefore, its not our fault and we won't feel bad about it or kill ourselves". Several points made (although not explicitly) are: 1) IP concept is harmful for your survival in clash of civilizations, 2) the more trouble you have, more plagues you survive and more competition from other greedy bastards you face, the worse bad ass your people become. It is also a nice engineering manual for global domination, if you can apply learned onto new circumstances ... or re-create old ones, mwuhuhuhahaha! Er, ... very practical book, I can tell you will LOVE it.

    8. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by digitig · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The theory I am most familiar with is that it's to do with land distribution and early technology. Early technology was largely plant and animal based. That technology spread easily east-west because of broadly similar climate, but didn't spread well north-south because of climate changes. Eurasia provided a massive east-west area, but Africa, India, Polynesia and so on were relaively isolated in the east-west direction. That means that technology advanced faster in the north than in the south. Add in the general human tendancy of the powerful oppressing the weak and hey, presto! White (and Yellow) colonialism. No racial causes, just the luck of the draw in who was in the right place at the right time.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    9. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by ombwiri · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While continents would have been pretty much in the same positions as they are now there would have been massive differences in the actual landscape. Just going from memory at around 12000BCE you had the Bering Strait land bridge, large parts of (what is now) the North Sea and English Channel were plains like hunting grounds for nomadic societies and western Sweden/southern Norway was much more a land of lakes, inlets and islands due to a higher than present sea level.

    10. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Bad white man! Now go off and kill yourself.
      It's by Jared Diamond, not Stephen J Gould.
      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by rizole · · Score: 1

      I was looking for those maps sometime ago and couldn't find them. I did find this though which I found interesting: National Geographic

    12. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by corbettw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've always suspected that one of the reasons for Europe and the Middle East's preeminence through much of history was the Mediterranean Sea and the easy trade routes provided by it. The Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians, and Romans all made great use of the sea in building their empires; I doubt any of them would've been half as successful without it.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    13. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by e1618978 · · Score: 1

      The world looked the same as it does now, minus the air and water pollution, etc. Continental drift is less than a mile in 10,000 years, and the ice caps have been fairly stable during that time as well.

    14. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by molarmass192 · · Score: 1

      How exactly does one go about objectively measuring "intelligence"?

      --

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
    15. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 1

      IQ test.

      I'm not exactly sure why you put intelligence in quotes, as if it doesn't really exist, which would imply that you don't believe there is such a thing a cognitive ability to rationally organize information.

    16. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Darthjedi · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as race when you refer to humans.

    17. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by digitig · · Score: 1

      Yes there is. The question is whether it is a social construct or a scientific distinction (there's another issue of whether science itself is a social construct anyway, and yet another issue of imprecise boundaries, but most categories we use have imprecise boundaries). Denial of the concept of race is a creative approach to racism, but it remains a form of denial.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    18. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by DerangedAlchemist · · Score: 1

      Strange, all the racial science I knew of never found a link between race and intelligence. Unless, of course, you mean studies that ignored cultural and economic differences, etc. For example, African Americans as a race are much less accomplished academically, but if you look for genetic markers of mixed race with whites (not just skin pigmentation but a full comparison), you see no influence of race. Or if you control for wealth, education of parents, etc. the differences disappear also. African-Americans do about as well as white trash, who have similar problems of poverty.

      There are signs of differences between races, especially on things that have actually been selected for recently. That would mostly be resistance to epidemic diseases.

    19. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 1

      Strange, all the racial science I knew of never found a link between race and intelligence. Unless, of course, you mean studies that ignored cultural and economic differences, etc.

      Cultural and economic differences have been included, as well. This argument really holds no weight anymore. Why do East Asian immigrants from impoverished backgrounds do so well in such a short period of time? Explain that one away.

      Yes, "culture" and "education" are important and have an effect, but the effect is only marginal as compared to the effect of inheritance of genetic traits.

      Its analogous to the idea of weightlifting to build muscle mass - you can lift weights to improve your muscle mass, but there will always be people who have the capability to build bigger muscles than you, no matter how hard you work. The same applies to intelligence.

      For example, African Americans as a race are much less accomplished academically, but if you look for genetic markers of mixed race with whites (not just skin pigmentation but a full comparison), you see no influence of race.

      I don't understand this statement. Mixed race people include traits from both genetic lines. The traits do not disappear.

      Or if you control for wealth, education of parents, etc. the differences disappear also

      No, they don't.

      African-Americans do about as well as white trash, who have similar problems of poverty.

      Poor whites do better than similar (income, education) black ones. There was a recent study about how poor whites do much better than poor blacks on standardized tests and in academic achievement. The sad thing is that the black schools probably get more attention as far as grants and dispensations than the rural white schools do.

    20. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by mikael · · Score: 1

      Are houses the same sizes? Do they have somewhere quiet to study? That's my theory anyway.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    21. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by SwordsmanLuke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just going from memory at around 12000BCE ...That's some memory you've got there, chief!
      --
      Any plan which depends on a fundamental change in human behavior is doomed from the start.
    22. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by ihuntrocks · · Score: 1

      I have no designs on making any sort of race related commentary, but I do have to touch on this topic for a moment. I happen to come from a very low income, absolutely uneducated (read: I'm the first to finish high school in my direct family history), yet I have turned out with a high IQ score and have done quite well academically. My parents never pushed me toward it, and my redneck-middile-of-nowhere school didn't either. This was done completely on my own, and was only slightly complicated by my impoverished upbringing. It did make things difficult, but I motivated myself to overcome it. The same is not true, however, for my two younger siblings. They bought in to the poor, white trash culture that we grew up in, and that's how they are to this day, along with the rest of my family. I love them to death, but we all had the same genetic stock to come from, the same upbringing, and the same schooling, but we turned out like we were from different worlds. To say that it is economic conditions are a governing factor in determining human intelligence is, in my opinion, grossly overstating that influence. It's more about culture and motivation to overcome your circumstances, and a curiosity about the world and its workings. I can say comfortably that intelligence is not determined by race. Race, however, does have a huge impact on culture and expectations for emerging individuals into that culture. Asian cultures tend to place a lot of emphasis on doing well in all that you do, and using what you have to its full potential. We find that to lesser degrees in other cultures, and it does seem to show through in the end result. Those of European extraction typically have an advantage when it comes to good conditions, both geographically and economically, but as we can see from my personal case, that is not always true. I honestly do believe that the link is more cultural than strictly genetic. Once in a while we do have a naturally born genius in our midst in any race or culture, but I would be more likely to attribute the bulk on intellectual outcomes to culture. Just my opinion.

      --
      Randimal: AT-CG-CG-AT-CG-AT-AT-CG-CG-AT-AT-CG-AT-CG-CG-AT-CG-AT-AT-CG-AT-CG-CG-AT-AT-CG-CG-AT-CG-AT-AT-CG
    23. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't believe you haven't found the 'Atlas of the Human Journey' check this out :)

      https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

    24. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Random+Guru+42 · · Score: 1

      It played its part, for sure, but just because trade happened faster on the Mediterranean and Black seas doesn't mean that more easterly parts of Eurasia were bereft of trade themselves.

      The Mediterranean bias comes from us European types being noisier about the deeds of our ancestors, as compared to central and east Asians. But there was a lot of trade (both commercial and intellectual) throughout much of history, as well.

      --
      Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
    25. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Neeth · · Score: 1

      An IQ test is very good at measuring how well you do IQ tests. A bushman from Papua - New Guinea wouldn't be able to take an IQ test. Is he therefore less intelligent than you are? I don't think gp post doesn't believe in cognitive abilities, he / she just questions the objective measurement of it.

      --
      Yes, I am the one with the legendary sig.
    26. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Very true. The Silk Road is a good case study of that. But it is a lot easier (even today) to send cargo by sea than by just about any other method.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    27. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by Random+Guru+42 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but up until the second millennium CE, moving out of sight of land for a whole day often meant you'd never be seen by anyone again. More successful oriental trade was done on land.

      --
      Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
    28. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by DerangedAlchemist · · Score: 1

      Cultural and economic differences have been included, as well. This argument really holds no weight anymore. Why do East Asian immigrants from impoverished backgrounds do so well in such a short period of time? Explain that one away.
      Cultural differences are not genetic, by definition. So without controlling for them, you naturally get a skewed measurement on the effects of genetics.
      Other factors, such as childhood nutrition, have influence on the same level as genetics. For example, this is the dominant factor in why Europeans today are taller than their ancestors.

      Its analogous to the idea of weightlifting to build muscle mass - you can lift weights to improve your muscle mass, but there will always be people who have the capability to build bigger muscles than you, no matter how hard you work. The same applies to intelligence.
      And someone who lifts weights regularly is almost always stronger than a couch potato regardless of genetics. Comparing weightlifters to non-weightlifters is not likely to give a useful, unbiased measure of the effect of genetics on strength.

      For example, African Americans as a race are much less accomplished academically, but if you look for genetic markers of mixed race with whites (not just skin pigmentation but a full comparison), you see no influence of race.
      I don't understand this statement. Mixed race people include traits from both genetic lines. The traits do not disappear. The mixed race people offer a continuum to test the race intelligence theory against. If whites are genetically more intelligent, mixed races of more white origin should be smarter than those of predominately black, etc. This was never observed. This experiment controls for cultural effects very nicely because skin pigmentation and family background does not perfectly match true genetic makeup.
      Other studies do find different results, but often these result from some sort of failure to control for sample bias. Overall, in any case, it appears genetic difference in intelligence between races are so small they are hard to measure. Influences such as nutrition are, again, quite large and easily observed.

      The sad thing is that the black schools probably get more attention as far as grants and dispensations than the rural white schools do.
      You realize that there being no genetic difference implies there should not be a difference in treatment for that reason? While if they really are at a disadvantage ....
    29. Re:Maps of human travel on earth by scooter.higher · · Score: 1
      --
      Ramen
  5. Polynesians by Bananatree3 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If people reached Easter Island, which is almost off the coast of South America, what would have stopped Polynesian explorers from traveling all the way to Chile? It seems statistically low that explorers would have been able to hit a tiny island off the coast of S.A. and not have at least had one or two exploratory parties hit the coast.

    This isn't to say Polynesians were the first to South America, as Easter Island was populated around 2000 years ago while S.A. was populated many thousands of more years before that. However, it seems likely that there might have been genetic mixing between Polynesians and South American coastal tribes.

    1. Re:Polynesians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      close, but no cigar... the migration could have been in the other direction as well!

    2. Re:Polynesians by hengist · · Score: 4, Informative

      > If people reached Easter Island, which is almost off the coast of South America, what would have stopped Polynesian explorers from
      > traveling all the way to Chile?

      As I understand it, current thinking is that polynesians did make it to South America, which is where they got gourds and sweet potatoes from. Then, they turned around and followed the prevailing winds home.

      Thor Heyerdahl thought that polynesians came from South America and followed the prevailing winds in migrating west. But, genetic evidence proves that they come from Taiwain. The current theory is that they explored into the wind because it gave them a free trip home if they didn't find anything.

    3. Re:Polynesians by DerangedAlchemist · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Recently, ancient chicken DNA from South America was found to be most closely related to Polynesian chickens. I believe it was specifically chickens from Tonga, which is close to Easter Island. Previously, there was some dispute because carbon dating of the oldest chicken skeletons suggested they were a couple of hundred years older than the Spanish had arrived.
      So it probably did occur something like you suggest, even if the human populations were wiped out by local tribes and show no genetic mixing.

    4. Re:Polynesians by maglor_83 · · Score: 5, Funny

      carbon dating of the oldest chicken skeletons suggested they were a couple of hundred years older than the Spanish had arrived. You don't happen to know the results of carbon dating of the oldest chicken eggs do you? We might be able to answer the question once and for all!

    5. Re:Polynesians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      1421.tv is the site for you, the chinese circumnavigated the globe 1n 1421-1423 ad.
      Also the chinese mitochondrial DNA in the newzealand population...

    6. Re:Polynesians by b4upoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Considering the remarkable ability of Chinese vessels in the era before Christ we may have Chinese settlers in early South America. Japanese vessels are another distinct possibility.
                  If we go back about 14,000 years and get any good information on which of the Asian nations allowed females on board ships we might get a better clue as to early colonization. Or it just might be that only males made it to the Americas in the early days and that they bred with whatever females they could find. In that sense there may have been no distinct cultural colonies in the early times, There may have simply been accidental conglomerates of ship wrecked people combined with a few explorers who never got word back home that they had survived in the New world.

    7. Re:Polynesians by corbettw · · Score: 2, Funny

      Recently, ancient chicken DNA from South America was found to be most closely related to Polynesian chickens. The two species are closely linked, yes. But you can easily tell them apart by a simple test: the Polynesian chickens have a sweet, pineapplily after taste.
      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    8. Re:Polynesians by Ticklemonster · · Score: 1, Funny

      ?? the human population was wiped out by local tribes of chickens? Wait til Charlton Heston hears about this! It's a madhouse!!!

      --
      Karma: Bad is the liberal way of saying this guy won't drink the kool aid here on slash dot. I wear my Karma with pride
    9. Re:Polynesians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Easter Island was populated 2000 years ago? I thought that had been thoroughly discredited.

      Easter Island was populated only about 800 years ago. Can't possibly have anything to do with the colonization of South America 13,000 years ago.

    10. Re:Polynesians by Heather+D · · Score: 2, Informative

      Tonga is not very close to Easter Island. It is 'on the way' of most proposed ancient routes from Polynesia to South America though, but there is still a lot of distance between them.

    11. Re:Polynesians by zobier · · Score: 1

      Egg already, OK.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
  6. It's a smaller world up there... by CptNerd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's not as much area when you move further north, so it's not surprising that the peoples up there would interact more. There's probably been some interaction with the Ainu people of Japan, too, due to many Caucasoid traits they have. The one thing about Homo Sapiens is, we tend to move around a lot.

    --
    By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
    1. Re:It's a smaller world up there... by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...and fuck a lot when we get there.

    2. Re:It's a smaller world up there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..preferably after having killed the male part of the local population.

    3. Re:It's a smaller world up there... by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      There's also the Celts in Western China - well they aren't exactly Celts, they just happen to be a minority with indigenous art that resembles Celtic design, they frequently have blond hair, curly hair, green/blue eyes, etc, etc. Makes me wonder whether the Orkney Islanders contributed to the Yakuts or the other way around.

      Which brings me to another point. How does this get passed off as science? It's pseudo-science at best, rating somewhere close to astrology. They find some patterns that frequently occur and use them to pass their fictional stories about unknowable history as fact. Not saying it has no place, just saying it deserves as much funding as astrology.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    4. Re:It's a smaller world up there... by zobier · · Score: 1

      Your preferences are your business, however we're talking about the spread of genetic information here, so they're irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
  7. Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will be interesting to see where this kind of knowledge will lead us. If you knew today that in 200 years we would have a new system of genetic categorization that would allow people to discriminate in entirely new ways...would you still want to know? What if at some point it became obvious that certain populations were (objectively) superior to others, in terms of predisposition toward diseases, etc. Will it ever become a selfish act to inflict your admittedly poorer genetics on your children when there are better genetics available? Are we looking at a new eugenics movement with better science? A brave new world? I want to know and understand all of this, but can anyone make the case against?

    1. Re:Where is this going? by IHawkMike · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ever seen Gattaca?

    2. Re:Where is this going? by mrbluze · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What if at some point it became obvious that certain populations were (objectively) superior to others, in terms of predisposition toward diseases, etc.

      The end of WWII supposedly brought an end to eugenics in Germany, but it was, even then, thriving in the English speaking world and continues to do so.

      The weakness of our civilization has become a lack of any moral vigor. Pretty much every time there is protest on moral grounds it is trivialized by the media and the whole thing is treated like a sport between nay-sayers and scientists.

      It's a weakness because it breeds distrust and fear in the community. if we don't come up with/maintain some kind of moral integrity in our scientific community, we will be overrun by groups who will impose an extreme opposite on us. And yeah, you're right, someone will come up with a logical but crazy conclusion and we'll have another wave of white-coat slaughter happening.

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    3. Re:Where is this going? by mrbluze · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ever seen Gattaca? [imdb.com] Ever seen Morons from Outer Space?
      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    4. Re:Where is this going? by Vectronic · · Score: 2, Funny

      (I know im gonna get modded to hell, but...)

      Ever seen Gayniggers From Outer Space

      Ever watched it? http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/gayniggers_from_outer_space.php

      P.S. I'm not racists, or homophobic, nor is the movie... but its also not really that ammusing either...

      its just the first thought that crossed my mind... hmm...

    5. Re:Where is this going? by mrbluze · · Score: 2, Funny

      I haven't seen that, but have you seen Killer Klowns from Outer Space.. or what about The Chicken From Outer Space. Of course there are others but..

      P.S. I have nothing against chickens but.. what were we talking about again?

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    6. Re:Where is this going? by Vectronic · · Score: 1

      Ive seen Killer Klowns, and I think ive seen Chickens too... from what i found from it, looks familliar...

      And we were talking about the genetic categorization of movies... Six Degrees of Outer Space...or something...

    7. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The weakness of our civilization has become a lack of any moral vigor. Pretty much every time there is protest on moral grounds it is trivialized by the media and the whole thing is treated like a sport between nay-sayers and scientists. I agree with this post.
    8. Re:Where is this going? by rrohbeck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, Eugenics has a bad rap because of the way it used to be done forcibly in Nazi Germany, the US and other places.
      But what's wrong with it if it's done in an ethically responsible way? [Prospective] parents have access to genetic testing/counseling if there's known risks like hereditary diseases, and embryos can be tested and aborted if they have severe [genetic] defects. If a couple has significant genetic defects they can choose to adopt. That's eugenics, pure and simple. What's wrong with that?
      And don't start with a slippery slope argument. It's up to legislation to set the proper limits and it's up to society to apply scientific results in the proper way. We are able to read the genome today, and it's getting cheaper and cheaper. Applied properly, this can be very beneficial. Applied badly, see Gattaca.

    9. Re:Where is this going? by jcr · · Score: 1

      But what's wrong with it if it's done in an ethically responsible way?

      Make sure it's voluntary, and I have no objection. Once you let a governmental organization have anything to do with it though, it becomes evil and must be stopped at all costs.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    10. Re:Where is this going? by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Once you let a governmental organization have anything to do with it though, it becomes evil and must be stopped at all costs.
      What would you class as interfereing? Discouraging people from having defective children? Or subsidising healthcare for preventable, avoidable defects - thus encouraging them to do so?
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    11. Re:Where is this going? by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, Eugenics has a bad rap because of the way it used to be done forcibly in Nazi Germany, the US and other places.

      Eugenics has a bad rap because it's been throughly disproven as complete pseudoscience.

      [Prospective] parents have access to genetic testing/counseling if there's known risks like hereditary diseases, and embryos can be tested and aborted if they have severe [genetic] defects.

      That's not eugenics... That's just genetic screening.

      Eugenics is the process of sterilizing "lesser" peoples, such as the poor, and non-white, because of the (false) theory that their offspring were doomed to be similarly intellectually handicapped, regardless of the amount of education they received. This is basically the same (racist) argument long used to suppress negros, being applied instead to poor "white trash" classes of people.

      On the (entirely separate) question of genetic screening, I would certainly discourage it. People's desires for their children, and culturally-influenced impression of what traits are "good" and "bad" are not necessarily correct. Some of the smartest people to ever have lived suffer from physical and mental defects, and it's currently impossible to know if their intelligence was in spite of, or perhaps because of that very handicap. If anything, I think modern history has proven that genetic diversity is a GOOD thing. Yet, people have proven to be irrational beings, by and large, and need to be protected from their own desire to establish a monoculture in selecting their offspring.

      What happens when everyone on the planet is selecting their unborn children for intelligence, only to find out that our current established theory of what genetic traits lead to intelligence turn out to be wrong, and the world is filled with a generation of mentally handicapped children?
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe in old fashioned eugenics, also known as Darwinism.
      Now I have huge flat feet, and would be culled by your stupid model society, but when climate change rises the sea level a few thousand meters we will see whose children survive LOL
      I think we should let nature do its thing except maybe for truly deleterious mutations, our current genetics knowledge tells us that current great local fit is the next extinct species.

    13. Re:Where is this going? by jcr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What would you class as interfering?

      Any use of force, including the use of tax money.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    14. Re:Where is this going? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If eugenics is pseudoscience then so are evolution and agriculture; they all depend on the heritabilty of characteristics.

      No matter how evil some applications of it have been, that's an entirely separate issue from the science itself.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what's wrong with it if it's done in an ethically responsible way? [Prospective] parents have access to genetic testing/counseling if there's known risks like hereditary diseases, and embryos can be tested and aborted if they have severe [genetic] defects. If a couple has significant genetic defects they can choose to adopt. That's eugenics, pure and simple. What's wrong with that?

      Five generations later, only genetically "perfect" people are left, making the entire population as uniform as an average Windows network.

      The next virus that attacks the population only kills those with "perfect" genes. Any other combination are immune. Oh wait, we already aborted those.

      Time for the virus to spread? Google "slammer".

    16. Re:Where is this going? by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 1

      Eugenics has a bad rap because it's been throughly disproven as complete pseudoscience.

      No, it has not. There is mountains and mountains of scientific study showing that many traits, including intelligence, are highly heritable.

      That's not eugenics... That's just genetic screening.

      Yes, that is eugenics.

      Eugenics is the process of sterilizing "lesser" peoples

      No, it is not. Eugenics has never been about oppressing minorities or disabled people. Eugenics has been about encouraging people with the most desirable traits to breed. What you describe is not eugenics - it is, as you say, sterilization and euthanasia. That is not eugenics.

      What happens when everyone on the planet is selecting their unborn children for intelligence, only to find out that our current established theory of what genetic traits lead to intelligence turn out to be wrong, and the world is filled with a generation of mentally handicapped children?

      Except that, two intelligent parents are highly likely, according to well-established science, to have similarlly intelligent offspring if they breed.

    17. Re:Where is this going? by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What happens when everyone on the planet is selecting their unborn children for intelligence, only to find out that our current established theory of what genetic traits lead to intelligence turn out to be wrong, and the world is filled with a generation of mentally handicapped children?
      I'm looking at it right now.
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    18. Re:Where is this going? by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nice soundbite, but impractical.

      Take one common cause of genetic problems - inbreeding.

      Either you use force (making incest illegal) or you use force (tax money) to look after the resulting crop of web-footed 'tards.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    19. Re:Where is this going? by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

      Take one common cause of genetic problems - inbreeding.

      Either you use force (making incest illegal) or you use force (tax money) to look after the resulting crop of web-footed 'tards.

      Inbreeding does not cause genetic problems - it simply increases the odds of inheriting a deleterious recessive allele. Studies have shown inbreeding increases infant mortality rates but had no impact on school performance, indicating that most genetic problems associated with inbreeding are selected out quickly.

      On the other hand, drinking alcohol during pregnancy has been shown to cause a host of birth defects and genetic problems in the offspring, yet no one suggests banning mothers-to-be from drinking.

    20. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it is not. Eugenics has never been about oppressing minorities or disabled people. Eugenics has been about encouraging people with the most desirable traits to breed. Please don't confuse real history with what you wish history to have been. Galton gave a much broader, encompassing definition of eugenics:

      "Eugenics is the science which deals with all influences that improve the inborn qualities of a race; also with those that develop them to utmost advantage."

      -- Francis Galton [Am. J. Soc., X, 1, 1 (1904).]

      H. G. Wells advocated sterilization as the only practical method:

      "It is in the sterilisation of failure, and not in the selection of successes for breeding, that the possibility of an improvement of the human stock lies."
      -- H. G. Wells (1904)

      The compulsory sterilization law upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in Buck v. Bell had exactly such a eugenical justification:

      "We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 , 25 S. Ct. 358, 3 Ann. Cas. 765. Three generations of imbeciles are enough. [274 U.S. 200, 208]"

      -- Majority Opinion in Buck v. Bell (1927).
    21. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Either you use force (making incest illegal) or you use force (tax money) to look after the resulting crop of web-footed 'tards."

      Who said you HAD to do either of these ? There's no use of force in calling incest gross and abhorrent, as well there is no compelling reason to look after the "web-footed 'tards".

    22. Re:Where is this going? by SwordsmanLuke · · Score: 1

      Take one common cause of genetic problems - inbreeding. I get your point, but this is, in fact, false. Genetic traits are inherited from one's parents. Being inbred simply increases the likelihood of receiving the same bad recessive gene from both parents. It also increases the likelihood of receiving the same beneficial gene from both parents. The odds are roughly the same, but because harmful genetic traits are typically more obvious than beneficial ones, they get all the press.

      Pro tip: Even though this post implies you're just as likely to get superman as not, sleeping with your sister is typically frowned upon and may be considered a major social faux pas!
      --
      Any plan which depends on a fundamental change in human behavior is doomed from the start.
    23. Re:Where is this going? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Kevin Spacey is from outer space?!!!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    24. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Eugenics has a bad rap because of the way it used to be done forcibly in Nazi Germany, the US and other places.

      At least as important, I'd say, was the rise of Marxism in certain academic circles, particularly in the English speaking world. When those of a liberal mindset (in the classical sense) were in the majority, they were willing to appoint Marxists to academic posts, because a true liberal believes in freedom of speech, and that all points of view should be represented. In contrast, Marxists have no such compunctions, and set out from the start to promote the appointment of other Marxists. Once they had reached critical mass, they effectively shut out those who disagreed with them.

      The important thing about Marxists is that they have a fundamental belief (a faith, really) that reform of "the system" can produce an ideal society, populated by a "new socialist man." In order for this to be the case, one must absolutely deny the role of heritability in determining the nature of individuals. This mindset was behind official Soviet adherence to the absurd doctrine of Lysenkoism, a pseudo-science which posited that acquired characteristics were passed on from one generation of an organism to another. In this view, if everyone is 'educated' in Marxist dogma, Marxism will be biologically passed on to the next generation. It also leads to horrific practices like the North Korean policy of responding to even the slightest deviation from the official dogma by imprisoning three generations (the "offender," plus his or her children and grandchildren) in concentration camps.

      The Fascists (not to be confused with the Nazis) actually had a similar idea of a "new fascist man" that would emerge from the fascist system, with the key difference being nationalism; that is, Fascists were nationalistists whereas Marxists were internationalists. Mussolini had of course been a Marxist until World War I, but abandoned the faith when he observed the strength of nationalism that was brought out by the war. The Nazis, in contrast to Marxists and Fascists, believed that heritability was a critical part of the equation, so added eugenics to the mix, and also added a pseudo-science of their own. The Nazi pseudo-science involved "races" based primarily on linguistic groupings, to which Nazi dogma attributed all sorts of specific characteristics. For example, Jews were believed to be biologically predisposed to Marxism, and Slavs were believed to be incapable of running their own societies, depending on a foreign elite for this (in Nazi pseudo-history, this was traditionally a German elite, which had been replaced by a Jewish elite in the Soviet Union after the October Revolution).

      The Holocaust is often used as an argument of where eugenics "will" lead, but the reality is much more complex. The Nazis really believed that the Soviet Union was part of a Jewish conspiracy to enslave the Western world, and that was the basis for their hatred of Jews, and thus of the Holocaust. It really had nothing to do with eugenics, but it had a lot to do with the Nazis' racial pseudo-science. Since the Nazis believed in a biological basis for the Jewish affinity for Communism (an affinity that was real at the time), they viewed Jews as incapable of being reformed. Even so, as horrific as the Nazi regime was, it only resorted to industrial slaughter in death camps after the tide of war on the eastern front turned against it. The probability that any democratic regime run by sane individuals would engage in mass killing of "undesirables" is extremely small.

      It seems to me the other major objection to eugenics is a racial one, that is a view that some races will be designated "superior" and others "inferior." Based on an informal reading of the "scientific racists" as their opponents call them, I've come to the opposite view. The basic idea of the "scientific racists" is that human groups all more or less started off with similar average levels of intelligence, but that some groups were faced with more challenging envir

    25. Re:Where is this going? by toddhisattva · · Score: 1

      That's not eugenics... That's just genetic screening.

      Eugenics is the process of sterilizing "lesser" peoples, such as the poor, and non-white, because of the (false) theory that their offspring were doomed to be similarly intellectually handicapped, regardless of the amount of education they received. You're talking about particular implementations of eugenics, not eugenics itself.

      I think grampaw is trying to draw a distinction between voluntary eugenics and involuntary eugenics.

      A bad analogue would perhaps be, the difference between a volunteer military and a conscript military.

      Peacock tails are the result of peahens' idea of eugenics. Maybe we can do better, maybe not.

      But when a government gets involved, it's gonna suck.
    26. Re:Where is this going? by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Eugenics is the process of sterilizing "lesser" peoples NO!

      That is one method used for the purpose of eugenics, NOT the definition of eugenics.
      STOP confusing a method amongst many with the common purpose of the many methods. This is really, really bad. I'm holding back insulting words here, because I abhor that intellectual pitfall you're mired in.

      Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention.[1] Throughout history, eugenics has been regarded by its various advocates as a social responsibility, an altruistic stance of a society, meant to create healthier and more intelligent people, to save resources, and lessen human suffering.

      Earlier proposed means of achieving these goals focused on selective breeding, while modern ones focus on prenatal testing and screening, genetic counseling, birth control, in vitro fertilization, and genetic engineering. Opponents argue that eugenics is immoral. Historically, a minority of eugenics advocates have used it as a justification for state-sponsored discrimination, forced sterilization of persons deemed genetically defective, and the killing of institutionalized populations. Eugenics was also used to rationalize certain aspects of the Holocaust.
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    27. Re:Where is this going? by mikji · · Score: 0

      Damn, man. What does it look like?

    28. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd suggest it, if anyone let me hold political office. My fiancee knows that if she gets pregnant, smoking or drinking will cause trouble, relationship-wise. And I do yell at and chew out pregnant women who smoke or drink today.

    29. Re:Where is this going? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      There's the issue... a lot of people have a problem saying that a specific person should not be born because they have a defect -- oftentimes it is the genetic outliers that cause the most interesting contributions to society.

      One of the biggest issues would be "who gets to decide what's a defect".

    30. Re:Where is this going? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      For instance, some skin pigments are better at protecting the skin against radiation that can cause cancer. Do we discourage people with "defective" skin pigments from having children because the pigment defect is preventable and avoidable?

    31. Re:Where is this going? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Actually vitamin D deficiency is a major problem for dark skinned people at higher latitudes because it is made in the skin from cholesterol under UV radiation. That is more of a problem evolution-wise than skin cancer because it can cause development problems in children, while skin cancer usually happens later in life.
      There's a reason why 100% of people at higher latitudes lost their skin pigmentation.

    32. Re:Where is this going? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Eugenics is the process of sterilizing "lesser" peoples No. Eugenics is any attempt at improving genetic quality in humans. What you're referring to is only the "bad rap" part.

      That's not eugenics... That's just genetic screening. Yes it is. Go look it up.
    33. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eugenics is blah blah, crap, shit Why don't you use a dictionary instead of giving us your discordant intellectual diarrhea?
    34. Re:Where is this going? by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 1

      Some of the smartest people to ever have lived suffer from physical and mental defects, and it's currently impossible to know if their intelligence was in spite of, or perhaps because of that very handicap. If anything, I think modern history has proven that genetic diversity is a GOOD thing.
      Written like someone whose never seen the horrors of sickle cell, hemophelia, or any number of damn near fatal diseases that can be avoided through genetic screening. So assuming you're male and you think being born with a handicap is a great character builder, will you replace your mate's folic acid supplements with a placebo?

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    35. Re:Where is this going? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Written like someone whose never seen the horrors of sickle cell, hemophelia, or any number of damn near fatal diseases that can be avoided through genetic screening.

      That's a real nice cop-out... Except, of course, for the fact that there are a large range of genetic disorders alive and well in my family tree, which I stand a very good chance of passing to my offspring.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    36. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with any centrally organized thing like this is not the idea, but that almost all politicians are either really dumb, or right wingers, and even dumber. That's why you get Gattaca, Hitler, etc. Its like the Dilbert principle x 5. Being a politician is even worse than being a manager, so the only people who do it, with few exceptions, are the ones that are so stupid they can't do much else. This changes somewhat at the national level, but not radically- they draw from the local politician level for their sources, so things don't get that much better. Don't worry, they don't surf, so they won't get their feelings hurt.

    37. Re:Where is this going? by johnBurkey · · Score: 1

      Why do you think the capitalism beat out central planning communism? Because capitalism puts more decision making in the hands of the slightly less dumb business leaders. And occasionally a Steve Jobs type.
      Hence, we are better of with societal pressures for now, given that we continue to help the 3rd world make it over the hump to where they stop megaproducing babies.
      This has already happened with the west, and places like Japan, etc. So there is a future going this route.

    38. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inbreeding does not cause genetic problems - it simply increases the odds of inheriting a deleterious recessive allele. And when you inherit a deleterious recessive allele the consequences are ...

      Being a pedantic twat, that's what.
    39. Re:Where is this going? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you believe incest is OK? What are you, a Mormon, or a Pakistani?

      Secondly, they will end up as a burden on the state, one way or another.

  8. So "Native Americans" were invaders? by whoever57 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From the summary:

    In their proposed scenario, the population which first colonised North East Asia also crossed the Bering Strait and eventually made it to South America. This population was subsequently replaced by a population more closely related to modern East Asians. These people also successfully crossed the Bering Strait and contributed to the ancestry of the native North Americans.
    So what does this mean for Native Americans? They were aggressive immigrants who displaced the original population?
    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what does this mean for Native Americans? They were aggressive immigrants who displaced the original population? This is known to be the case with Aboriginal Australians but has had limited impact on land title. I am aware of at least one case in Torres Strait where title was contested regarding 'invasion' by another tribe.
    2. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So what does this mean for Native Americans? They were aggressive immigrants who displaced the original population?

      No. It means only what was said: "This population was subsequently replaced"

      We don't have anything like the grain necessary to deduce something like you're suggesting. However if proven this *proposal* does put a end to the terms "First Peoples" and "First Nations", at least for rational people and for legislation. And the term "Native Americans", for that matter.

      God knows what it would mean for previous legislation already in force, like land claim settlements. It might only mean some meta-legislation to recognize the now-inaccurate terminology of earlier legislation as quaint but still binding. But there's huge money at stake so there will be strong lobbying to void as many claims as possible.

      This will play out at the national level, and also at the UN where there's quite a bit of legislation about aboriginal rights. Probably it's going to be very messy.
    3. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by mrbooze · · Score: 1

      This was true of most of Africa as well. Africa used to have a much more diverse tribal population, but most of them were over time replaced by a few more aggressive groups, long before the white people arrived and began dabbling in free labor sources.

    4. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by kripkenstein · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So what does this mean for Native Americans? They were aggressive immigrants who displaced the original population? Essentially all human populations are/were aggressive invaders at some point. See Jared Diamond's writings, for example, about how the Bantu came to occupy most of Africa, how the Han Chinese did the same for China, etc., etc.

      We see things as they are right now, and just presume that the clock was frozen before the last few centuries. So, we see black people in Africa and Chinese people in China and assume they were always there. They weren't, they displaced someone to get there. It's just been forgotten.

      Not that this makes any of it 'right' or 'justified', nor does it make it 'wrong' or 'unjustified'. These are the facts. Make of them what you will.
    5. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's a good article by Jared Diamond, for anybody that wants to see what they would be getting into:

      http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/21/080421fa_fact_diamond?currentPage=all

      The article is about the vengeance culture that exists (and is being curtailed) in New Guinea, and the tension between personal satisfaction and state mediation.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by 12357bd · · Score: 1

      A beautiful example of how spread and mixed the human cultures are, is:

      Unexpected faces in Ancient America
      --
      What's in a sig?
    7. Re:So "Native Americans" were invaders? by will_die · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So what does this mean for Native Americans? They were aggressive immigrants who displaced the original population?
      Yep and that is not a surprise. If you read the oral histories of the various current North American Tribes they tell of thier ancesors replacing the people who lived there before.
      Many times it was done in war but you also have things like tribes forming together to form a new distinct group, or outsiders coming in and over time they replace the people formerly there and the old group melting into the new tribe.
      I have heard, no guarrentee, there is not one modern North American tribe that can say that thier ancestors were the first in the area and they did not displace someother group of people. This was based on thier first interaction with Europians.

  9. Truth Finally by nawcom · · Score: 1
    Finally! Proof that the World Flood really happened! The story of Noah finally has empirical PROOF!!! err..mm.. wait one moment.

    *nawcom RsTFA*

    Awww..shit. :(

    1. Re:Truth Finally by lpzie · · Score: 0

      Critical examination of the text leans towards to a local flood.

    2. Re:Truth Finally by jonadab · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure this would have all been postdiluvian, so I'm not sure how it's relevant there.

      I do have a question, though, about their interpretation of the data. They assume that genetic similarities between two peoples (e.g., in the Orkney Islands and in Yakutia) implies that genetic information was transferred from one of those places to the other. I don't think that's necessarily valid. In the first place, both peoples could have got it from a common source (e.g., from a people who have since been effectively absorbed into a much larger population), and the common source may have since lost said genetic information due to degradation of the genome over time via chance or selection. Second, both peoples could have migrated to their present location from who knows where at any time in the past.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  10. Don't worry, white people are still bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what does this mean for Native Americans? They were aggressive immigrants who displaced the original population?
    Don't worry, white people are still bad.
    We have to keep up our Marxist victim/oppressor narrative.

  11. But other studies have shown different results. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Informative

    Extensive studies of mitochondrial DNA have pretty much confirmed migrations from east Asia to northwest America, then down south. There were, of course, more than one wave of such migrations. I doubt very much that the natives of north and south america "have different origins", because that would contradict well-established evidence that this is not so. However, they could certainly have a different mix of dna mutations showing various mixes from different areas.

    1. Re:But other studies have shown different results. by aibob · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Remember that there is a difference between using mitochondrial DNA (the studies you cited) and autosomal DNA (this study). With mitochondrial DNA, the only information that you get is along the maternal line, so you're missing a lot of the data. Looking back 20 generations, for example, you're only looking at one ancestor out of about a million. It would be possible for two groups to come over but only one be reflected in the maternal line.

    2. Re:But other studies have shown different results. by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      The thing that gets me is that there's usually a lot of emphasis on "China" when in reality, there were likely just as many, if not more, migrations to the Americas from the area which is now (and was then) India. India was a nation long before China was even populated.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  12. You mean by iminplaya · · Score: 0

    I'm adopted?!

    --
    What?
  13. RTFA by stuntmanmike · · Score: 1

    "In their proposed scenario, the population which first colonised North East Asia also crossed the Bering Strait and eventually made it to South America. This population was subsequently replaced by a population more closely related to modern East Asians. These people also successfully crossed the Bering Strait and contributed to the ancestry of the native North Americans."

    Slight problem with your theory - not too many Jews in East Asia.

    1. Re:RTFA by HadouKen24 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You'd be wrong there.

      Depends on what period of history and what area you're talking about, actually.

      There's evidence of Jewish presence in China as early as the 7th century. There were reports in the 9th century of Christian, Muslims, and Jews killed in a massacre in the 9th century. And Marco Polo reported encountering Jews in China in the 13th century. They lived mostly in Kaifeng, where a synagogue was built in the 11th century.

      However, it wasn't until the 15th century that Jews in China had much recognition by the local government. In 1421, Jews were finally allowed to take the civil service test. The population in Kaifeng was discovered by European Christians in the 17th century, who used their version of the Torah to crosscheck it against the versions being used in Europe. They were identical.

      So... yeah. Not many Jews, but there are signs dating back to the 7th century that Jews were present.


      'Course, that's not nearly early enough to match up with Mormon scripture.

    2. Re:RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus the fact that Mormons say the came on a boat, not a land bridge.

    3. Re:RTFA by notadoctor · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm not trying to perpetuate a religious argument or anything, but I would just like to point out two or three things in response. First, map 34 in Figure 4 shows the Colombian people having some origin in the regions around Eastern Iran and Western India, not China. The Jewish nation was taken captive into Persia (modern Iran) circa 722 B.C. A couple of other contemporary invasions also sent descendants of Israel all over the old world. That is early enough to match Mormon scripture, though the migratory pattern doesn't match the scenario described in the book. Second, the Book of Mormon states the people described therein were of the tribe of Manasseh, not Judah. "Jew" only referred to their nationality, not their ethnicity. Third, most Jews in Israel today are descendants of the European Jews of the Diaspora rather than those present in the land of Palestine during the later Biblical periods.

    4. Re:RTFA by notadoctor · · Score: 1

      Duh! I stand corrected. The map shows people emanating from Colombia, going towards Persia.

    5. Re:RTFA by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      There is some anecdotal evidence of Jewish influence in Japan from ancient times.

      Some of the religious ceremonies in certain areas of Japan seem to recall similar themes as Jewish ceremonies. Could just be a coincidence, but there could be a grain of truth to it.

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    6. Re:RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The population in Kaifeng was discovered by European Christians in the 17th century, who used their version of the Torah to crosscheck it against the versions being used in Europe. They were identical."

      Well, then it couldn't have been very old, could it? The Torah is a fairly modern book, with the latest version less than thousand years.

      The Abrahamitian "Falasha" in Ethipia had no concept of a Torah when "rediscovered". In fact their priests had to renounce their own religion in order to be accepted into Israel; NYTimes.com has several articles covering this.

      The Torah has nothing to do with the Biblical Hebrews but is a comparatively modern invention, which was finally edited into the current version some 900 years ago.

    7. Re:RTFA by xianvox · · Score: 1

      The Mongolians encouraged religious debate and diversity, so it's no surprise to find Jews in China by the 13th century.

  14. It doesn't say agressive by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, primitive tribes _were_ extremely aggressive, and did fight all the time.

    On the other hand "contributed to the ancestry of the native North Americans" implies interbreeding, rather than genocide. I.e., they fucked their way across two continents.

    It's not exactly surprising, though. A staple of tribal warfare, and it even lasted well into Iron Age in Greece for example, was raiding for another tribe's women, not just their food.

    Life expectancy for women was rather disproportionately lower than for men in primitive societieties, and for men it wasn't as high as to reach andropause first. So eventually a lot of still able men were left with the prospect of either finding another woman somehow, or playing with Miss Rosy Palm for the next 5 to 10 years. Meanwhile the next tribe had plenty of women. Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?

    Of course then the next tribe had an acute shortage of women, so the cycle of violence continued.

    So I'm saying that interbreeding would have been inevitable. When the newly arrived East Asians won a raid, they got some women from the previous populations, when they lost one, the opposite would happen.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      uh oh. I hear the chinese are in need of some 100 million women

    2. Re:It doesn't say agressive by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 1

      Well, primitive tribes _were_ extremely aggressive, and did fight all the time. <sarcasm>Oh bullshit. We all know the "primitive man" was a Noble Savage that lived in peace and harmony will other Native Peoples and Nature, you white oppressor!</sarcasm>
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    3. Re:It doesn't say agressive by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      Mods, this isn't funny, and could end up being a determining factor in global geopolitics for the foreseeable future. What happens to all those lonely men who can't get women for themselves? Why, they join the Army of course. And what do you do with an army? Why, go get yourself some women of course.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    4. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I don't see all the Slashdot nerds signing up for Iraq.

    5. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Well, primitive tribes _were_ extremely aggressive, and did fight all the time. Some. But look at the ones left, they mostly want to live their lives in peace.
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    6. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Random+Guru+42 · · Score: 1

      Probably because they got sick (from our white man diseases) and tired from getting repeatedly shot to pieces by our guns. The ones that kept fighting are dead.

      Not defending what happened, but if you look at a lot of the native cultures that survived, almost all of them were formerly warlike and have simply been beaten into submission.

      --
      Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
    7. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Odin's+Raven · · Score: 1

      So eventually a lot of still able men were left with the prospect of either finding another woman somehow, or playing with Miss Rosy Palm for the next 5 to 10 years. Meanwhile the next tribe had plenty of women. Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?

      I think so, Brain. But where would you get a life-size statue of Linus Torvalds and a pair of lime green lederhosen at this time of the night?

      --
      A marriage is always made up of two people who are prepared to swear that only the other one snores.
    8. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      Yes, they're peaceful _now_. Back then a "peaceful" tribe was one which didn't attack its neighbours more than once a year.

      There was _no_ peaceful tribal society that we know of, other than the Khoisan, a.k.a., Bushmen. The Khoisan had an... interesting society and culture, but that's the weird exception, not the rule.

      And even the Khoisan quickly discovered that those who don't believe in living by the sword, get slaughtered wholesale by those who do. They were essentially pushed by the Bantu (and later by the Dutch, British and German settlers) into the Kalahari desert, which noone else wanted. And not pushed into a reservation even USA style (brutal as that was too), but essentially by being slaughtered wholesale if caught on land anyone else wanted.

      But that's it. Once you move out of the Kalahari, there is _no_ "Noble Savage" and in most places never was. Whoever else wanted to be all peaceful and non-aggressive, didn't have a similar refuge.

      The Khoisan had the chance that their aggressors were into agriculture and animal husbandry, and didn't want Kalahari because it's useless for both. A tribe whose neighbours would be hunters-gatherers too (e.g., any in Nothern America) would not have the same chance. Any land a hypothetical peaceful tribe would have been able to live off, so would their neighbours, and they'd come fighting for it.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    9. Re:It doesn't say agressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, primitive tribes _were_ extremely aggressive, and did fight all the time. Says who? The anthropological record says some groups competed. Some cooperated. Some didn't run into too many other groups in areas with low population density.

      And on the subject of the word "primitive" -- it's meaningless, ethnocentric, and usually based on a mistaken idea of one's self as a pinnacle of human achievement. Rather, I'd argue, we're simply members of a *different* cultural formation that relies on elaborate technology, at the expense (many would argue) of social relationships and other things at which "primitive" peoples excelled.

      So I'm saying that interbreeding would have been inevitable. When the newly arrived East Asians won a raid, they got some women from the previous populations, when they lost one, the opposite would happen. This is an empirical question and one that further genetic studies can probably answer.

  15. Mormons will dismiss this data, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will be interesting to see how LDS will try to dismiss this new genetic data:
    http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_and_DNA_evidence

    Similar to CoS in explaining away challenging data, in my opinion.

    1. Re:Mormons will dismiss this data, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um... did you RTA? It has long been believed that all native americans came from eastern asia, and that has always been used as an argument against mormons. Now we know that they came from all sorts of different places, which is a very good argument for mormons. No need to dismiss anything.

  16. First born child by syousef · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yakut people of northern Siberia were found to have received a significant genetic contribution from the population of the Orkney Islands, which lie off the coast of Scotland.

    My wife's pregnant with her first. We had a girl's name picked but were having hell trying to find a boy's name. She was having trouble so we had another ultrasound. We now KNOW it's a boy. I think this story has settled it. I'll be naming my first born Vladamir McHaggis. Being beaten up will build the boy's character.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:First born child by hcdejong · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'll be naming my first born ... Being beaten up will build the boy's character. Ah, the Johnny Cash school of child rearing.
    2. Re:First born child by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > I'll be naming my first born Vladamir McHaggis.

      I think you ought to be able to squeeze a couple more implied ethnicities into that name. Have you considered Yoshi Gomezovich McHaggis, or Vladimir Chung McCohen, or perhaps Mb'ossa Vladimir Von McHaggis III?

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    3. Re:First born child by maxume · · Score: 1

      Burger (King) McDonalds would probably result in more beatings, plus, he might get sued by multinational corporations, which is sure to build excellent amounts of character.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:First born child by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Twill' serve the proletariat fine, aye!

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    5. Re:First born child by Bob_Geldof · · Score: 1

      I believe you are referring to Shel Silverstein

      --
      887321 = 337*2633
  17. People in the Altai-Baikal Region by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 2, Informative

    The articles "mtDNA Variation of Aboriginal Siberians Reveals Distinct Genetic Affinities with Native Americans" and "Mitochondrial DNA Variation in the Aboriginal Populations of the Altai-Baikal Region Implications for the Genetic History of North Asia and America" from 2004 indicate that ALL native Americans have a single origin. I guess the controversy of single or dual origins lives on and if I understood it correctly the field is still open for reinterpretations.

    1. Re:People in the Altai-Baikal Region by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      See post http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=565767&cid=23567367 - mitochondrial DNA only tracks maternal heritage. Think about most exploring parties: they're traditionally mostly men. Only large migrations like the Bering land bridge ones would include a sizeable group of female immigrants.

  18. Most people in Taiwan are not "Taiwanese" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "But, genetic evidence proves that they come from Taiwain."

    Most people in Taiwan are not "Taiwanese", they are ethnic Chinese which have outnumbered the original, mostly Malay people groups. I am not sure which of these you mean by saying "from Taiwan". The ethnic Chinese have not lived there for so long, just a few centuries.

    1. Re:Most people in Taiwan are not "Taiwanese" by Oligonicella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Context. It's called context. When you're talking thousands of years ago, it gives context to the term.

    2. Re:Most people in Taiwan are not "Taiwanese" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      They were the native Taiwanese - pretty well outnumbered now, but culture is very similar to Polynesian and genetics match.

  19. Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Sir+Network · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    According to the account of the Book of Mormon, 2 groups of people, one around 550 BC, sailed to the western portion of what is now central and South America and ran into indigenous people already living there.

    Add this with the discovery of Haplogroup X, a genetic marker that appears among Native Americans of European rather than Eastern Asian (read:Siberian Land Bridge) ancestry.

    --
    Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid. --John Wayne
    1. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I admire your tenacity. I have tried repeatedly to read that book, and only ever made it one paragraph in before falling asleep.

    2. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      Sure, the Book of Mormon and umpteen similar texts from the time of Hakluyt and onward. Heck, let's lump in Brendan, Atlantis, and Avalon too. My point is that there are a lot of mythic texts which discuss ancient migrations and subsequent discoveries of remnants of these ancient cultures. But that's von Daniken country and not history nor anthropology.

    3. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by maxume · · Score: 1

      There is very little to suggest dna from "lost Israelites" in the Native American population.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Threni · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Could the Book of Mormon be on to something?

      No. Being a religious text, it'll just be a bunch of crap thrown together by idiots in a bid to control people. It's fairly easy to use language - any language - to succinctly and precisely describe something. If you're not doing that then you're just fishing.

    5. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Succinctly and precisely describe the color blue, without resorting to wavelengths, as that's definition, not description. Or music. Or love.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    6. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      Blue is the colour most often taken by the sky on a cloudless day.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    7. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by mikael · · Score: 1

      The color you get when you mix yellow and green.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    8. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by norminator · · Score: 1

      But what does that look like? How would you describe it to someone who hasn't ever seen the color before?

      You didn't describe it, you just pointed it out.

    9. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe so. But in this case it was "written" by a farmboy in his 20s not a council of philosophers and scholars.

    10. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Threni · · Score: 1

      > Succinctly and precisely describe the color blue, without resorting to wavelengths, as that's definition, not description. Or music. Or
      > love.

      What's wrong with using a definition to Succinctly and precisely describe something?

      The definition of music is a little harder to pin down. Most people would agree that it's the organisation of sound in the medium of time, but then you have to deal with the left overs, such as people who perceive/describe natural phenomena (waves, wind etc) as sound, or composers/organisers of sound/noise such as John Cage, who try and avoid the imposition of humans onto the creative process.

      I thought love was rather well understood - natures way of making more nature. A chemical reaction which temporarily increases the desire for sex between two people for a period of time. It's hard wired - you don't have to understand it - probably can't understand it. Why does music/sex/food feel good? It just does - people who are not hard wired to experience them as positive (or pain/loneliness as negative) evolution tend to get used as sources of protein for happier people with better record collections.

    11. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But in this case it was "written" by a farmboy in his 20s not a council of philosophers and scholars.

      Well, you get what you pay for. I think it's great that people who want something written by a farmboy in his twenties can satisfy that urge.

    12. Re:Could the Book of Mormon be on to something? by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/describe

      describe: to represent or give an account of in words.
      Yep that's exactly what he did. If a word is not to be taken axiomatically then it has to be described using words or ideas that are taken to be axioms or can be built from words taken to be axioms.

      A color is either a wavelength or range or mix of wavelengths of light or is defined by similarity to what a person perceives. If you want to describe a sight to a blind person who does not and can not have the experience of seeing, then the blind person has to provide the necessary axioms.

      You have stated that the basic axioms are insufficient, therefore you have introduced a new axiom. One of the axioms is that both sender and receiver are using the same set of axioms. Therefore, given a set of axioms, i.e., words related to wavelengths not allowed and words related to sight not allowed, it may be impossible to describe color.

      Here's a similar exercise: describe a sphere to 2-D individual, without using a third dimension. Don't like that, describe what the entirety of a hypersphere looks like. Or back to sighted questions: What do gamma rays look like? And if you say they are invisible, well that just means not visible. You might as well say you don't know because you can't see gamma rays.

      Likewise, the color blue holds a mostly common experience, but think about people who are color-blind and may have an entirely different experience. The GP description of blue which was true for a normally sighted person, and your different description for a blind person, could be different still for a color-blind person. All would be valid under the right axioms and could be false under a different set.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
  20. There is sort of a mine buried in that... by patio11 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hint: its what happens right after "tested and".

    OK, so you don't agree with me about abortion. And you probably don't think that in 50 years people will think aborting one in three black children is 1920s eugenics, except with scaleability added.

    But lets talk about legislation. See, I don't think saying "If there is a problem, fix it with a law" is an adequate response to "Law consistently fails to solve some problems, for structural reasons". Take the abortion regime in the United States, for example. Ignore the moral dimension for the rest of this post -- you don't have to agree that abortion is bad, you just have to make objective judgements of when it is legally available and when it is not. As a statement of fact, the United States has one of the most permissive abortion regimes in the Western world. Yeah, really.

    Has the legal system in the United States hithertofore successfully discriminated between good reasons for abortions and bad reasons? No. Its set up so that it is essentially impossible to force that distinction into law. As a result, despite having a massive political movement dedicated to opposing abortion, and extraordinarily conservative attitudes about sex and abortion relative to peer nations such as many in Europe, the United States in actual practice prohibits far fewer abortions that peer nations in Europe do. (Really: take a look at the gestational limits in Europe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6235557.stm That is 12 weeks in Belgium, Denmark, etc -- that limit would be and has been stricken as unconstitutionally restrictive in that noted liberal hotspot, Kansas.)

    There's a bunch of reasons for that. One is the particularized development of the US abortion regime through the courts. Another is that the current American political consensus is somewhere between "I really do not want to hear about this, ever" and "Well, certainly SOME fraction of abortions are justified, for terrible circumstances which I would never, ever inquire about in polite company". A third is that the primary providers of abortion, who theoretically would end up as expert decisionmakers for legal compliance, are a political movement dedicated to keeping abortion restriction free. As a result, the questions which could theoretically ferret out "good" abortions from "bad" abortions, if one believed that such distinctions existed, can't be legislated and don't get asked.

    The same will be true of eugenics.

    Would America be socially willing to ask prospective eugenics parents "Excuse me, heard about your problem, so sorry. By the way, was that problem 'Your child is 78% likely to be missing a limb' or 'Your child is 83% likely to be left-handed'"? (Presumably that would be "bad" eugenics, right?) No, we won't be -- egads, that would be a ghastly thing to ask someone, particularly someone who just lost a child because he was headless. So nobody will be asked anything, just like nobody is required to substantiate why they want an abortion.

    Would America be willing to impose a coercive state apparatus on eugenicists to ensure that some crazy 1920s-reject racist doesn't recommend 1/3 of black kids for termination? No. Heck, no need for a hypothetical here: we actually do terminate 1/3 of black kids, in the status quo. There is no national coercive apparatus monitoring abortion.

    Eugenics will be worth billions upon billions of dollars, with a well-funded lobby, like reproductive medicine is and like abortion is. Children with birth defects, and children with "birth defects" like being left-handed or not predisposed to being athletic or possibly being gay, do not typically have much campaign cash to spend. Which group do you think is going to win in the US political system?

    1. Re:There is sort of a mine buried in that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A third is that the primary providers of abortion, who theoretically would end up as expert decisionmakers for legal compliance, are a political movement dedicated to keeping abortion restriction free. Isn't it basically the case that privatized health care is the problem? If the people performing abortions have nothing to gain or lose if more or less abortions are carried out then they can be better trusted to act as moderators and provide useful input into legislation.
    2. Re:There is sort of a mine buried in that... by kabocox · · Score: 1

      Eugenics will be worth billions upon billions of dollars, with a well-funded lobby, like reproductive medicine is and like abortion is. Children with birth defects, and children with "birth defects" like being left-handed or not predisposed to being athletic or possibly being gay, do not typically have much campaign cash to spend. Which group do you think is going to win in the US political system?

      I still think we are 10 generations too immature to do any playing around with eugenics or human natural selection. Just look at what happened to the first human government that thought it knew and was ready for eugenics... the Nazis. I think they were as miss guided as many other human governments in just declare that "we are the best" and "everyone else is bad or under us." That's 90% of their problem right there. If we really seriously were to study and use these fields, then we should start with studying overall human natural selection in how all humanity, tech, and culture has evolved over the last 6K years. Eugenics might one day be useful. The main problem we have with it is that it is too commonly used as a political weapon justifying the abuse/oppression of others. One very difficult concept that we have accepting is that eugenics requires some sort of "test" to judge if the person should be allowed to breed over that person. Using if a person has become a criminal sounds like a very valid test for excluding a person from future breeding. You then have to pick what "crimes" are used for this "additional punishment." Murder, assault, rape sound good to start off with. In 20 years though, will the RIAA push for file sharing to be included in that as well? And there is the problem we all see with the entire eugenics concept.

      On the flip side of it though, another reason that everyone doesn't like eugenics is that how we all see and think about it involves a government forcing it on its citizens. We don't see "natural" human mating/pairing as having anything to do with eugenics or natural selection though that's really the key. Think of all the thousand and one things any female looks at in a male and also the opposite. That's where all our past, current, and hopefully future eugenics takes place. (And its also the only place it should take place at the individual family level.)

    3. Re:There is sort of a mine buried in that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If the people performing abortions have nothing to gain or lose if more or less abortions are carried out then they can be better trusted to..." ...find a way to leverage it to their own interest. There, fixed.

  21. from northern Europe to east Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh, that's news!

    i would never have thought, that people trading on the silkroad would have had relationships on their route ...

    1. Re:from northern Europe to east Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The news is that it was some fat white guy the one who was doing the sex with sexy Eurasian women. This is news in Slashdot.

    2. Re:from northern Europe to east Asia by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That's not news. If he'd gotten some action without paying for it, well that would be different...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  22. Re:What's wrong with that? by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    What's wrong with that is the premature death of a potentially viable human. Our second daughter had an unusual protein count AFP in her amniotic fluid and the medical staff told us that she was very likely to have Down's syndrome. They asked us if we wanted to abort. We decided not to. Good thing too, because that medical advice has since been found to be invalid. She did not develop Down's and she's in college now.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  23. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If it's science, it should ALWAYS be open for reinterpretation as more data is collected and as analysis techniques improve or are replaced with better procedures.

    IMHO, an open mind should be, well, open.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  24. silly by nguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Considering the remarkable ability of Chinese vessels in the era before Christ we may have Chinese settlers in early South America. Japanese vessels are another distinct possibility.

    Despite extensive Chinese record keeping, there is no evidence at all that the Chinese made it to South America before the Europeans. If they had made it, they would have encountered a populated continent with many different cultures already, quite able to defend themselves against a few Chinese ships. If it hadn't been for smallpox, the Europeans wouldn't have stood a chance either.

    1. Re:silly by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are forgetting gunpowder guns, steel armor, and horses. Those improved the chances significantly. The fact that at least in Central America the natives were a bunch of bickering and warring tribes helped as well. Try reading about how Cortes invaded Tenochtitlan. If I was getting my place raided and my people enslaved to provide for live sacrifices, I would have joined the Spanish too. Besides, they may have got smallpox, but we got gonorrhea.

    2. Re:silly by DerangedAlchemist · · Score: 3, Informative

      Disease made all the difference. Europeans had gunpowder, gun, steel armor and horses over the Africans too, but Africa had it's own terrible diseases. The dominant population in Africa is still black. It's estimated that 80-95% of North American natives died from disease. For comparison, the black plague killed 30-50% of the population of Europe.

    3. Re:silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      already covered above, in 1421 a large fleet of chinese ships were sent out, but before they returned the emperors forbidden city burnt down and the people turned inwards and neglected the returning heros

    4. Re:silly by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Informative

      there is no evidence at all that the Chinese made it to South America before the Europeans.

      There is some suggestive evidence: the Fu Sang legends, South American folktales about "people from the sea", old stone anchors found off the Pacific coast, certain artistic motifs found in both Chinese and South American art. Joseph Campbell spends a few pages on this idea in one of the essays in Flight of the Wild Gander, but I'm too lazy to dig up my copy at the moment. I don't mean to suggest that it's a well-established mainstream theory, but IMHO there're enough hints to call it a sensible possibility.

      quite able to defend themselves against a few Chinese ships

      Just because Columbus and Company got slavery and rapine on their minds the moment they arrived, doesn't mean previous visitors did.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    5. Re:silly by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Well maybe you should read about the Spanish conquest of Perú compared to México. Perú was already devastated by smallpox, was in the middle of a massive civil war, and it took the Spanish 50 years to conquer the place (much longer to actually control all of it). Guns, horses, steel, and war dogs were pretty big advantages, but we're talking hundreds or at most a few thousand Spaniards vs. literally tens of millions of natives before smallpox.

      Cortes' invasion was incredibly effective because the Spanish arrived at precisely the right time to force a takeover of the entire society in an amazingly short time (3 years). The way Mexican (Aztec) society and empire was organized, if it would've taken the Spanish much longer the Mexica empire would've dissolved and many independent states would've assumed local power, making complete control impossible at that time. Even with disgruntled societies as their allies, it's very hard to imagine Spaniards conquering the Americas without smallpox arriving when it did.

      Even with complete control of Mexican culture and local supplies it took them another 100 years to pacify most of what is now México and 300 to completely conquer and pacify the Yucatán.

    6. Re:silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      already covered above, in 1421 a large fleet of chinese ships were sent out, but before they returned the emperors forbidden city burnt down and the people turned inwards and neglected the returning heros


      Just in case you weren't trying to be funny: the 1421 hypothesis is bullshit; there is no evidence for it.

  25. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    If it's science, it should ALWAYS be open for reinterpretation as more data is collected and as analysis techniques improve or are replaced with better procedures.

    Unless you're a proponent of anthropogenic climate change. In that case it's ALL settled science and there is a grand consensus with nothing left to discover or analyze.

    (that was sarcasm btw)

    No science is ever settled. Even models like newtonian physics, which still 'works' for most calculations we need, get superceded by newer models (i.e. relativity in this example).

  26. Re:What's wrong with that? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Actually, what's wrong in the example you gave was making a decision on incorrect information.

    Now it was your child and your decision, but you're judging an a priori decision in the light of a posteriori data. What if the test had been right? How would your marriage and/or other kids have coped?

    Of course no test in 100% accurate and life often involves making descisions on imperfect data. Still, I'm glad you were lucky.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  27. .. back in the ice ages. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Near the end of the last ice age, the sea was 300 feet lower. There was a lot more land. In fact, there is evidence that there was a continent where all the south east Asian islands are now.

    Until recently, the orthodoxy was that the population of these islands migrated from Taiwan. Now it appears that there was a population on the now flooded land that scattered and settled most of Asia including Taiwan.

    Your conjecture that the world was different is probably correct and probably does explain a lot about human migration.

    http://www.a2mediagroup.com/?c=167&a=22859

    http://www.archaeology.org/0003/abstracts/books.html

    "Early people might have moved south from the Bering Strait by following a chain of small ice-free areas that existed along the outer Pacific coast," Knut Fladmark, a professor of archaeology at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, told me by e-mail. "Many of those areas would now be underwater."

    In 1997, Daryl Fedje, an archaeologist with the Canadian parks system, found a stone tool at a site now 160 feet under water off the coast of British Columbia. The artifact, 10,200 years old, shows that people once lived on that submerged land, Fedje says.

    It will take more such discoveries to advance the theory of Ice Age ocean migration. But with affirmation of the discoveries at Monte Verde, Chile -- no bones, but plenty of artifacts, the old Clovis founding dates have died.

    http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/15/editorial/special.html
  28. Nations of Europe by eggspurt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The movies they attach are not very good.

    I have some Python source code for doing similar things with the case of European nations on http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/06/animated_mds_co.html (there is an animated GIF there).

    A bit more discussion about my methodology is at http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/06/nations_of_euro.html

  29. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    Actually, I've observed that many (including not a few scientists) defending evolutionary theory tend to be more dogmatic and less open to discussion than the ACC crowd. Not that the ACC or other environmental activists are shrinking violets.

    In math and physics, no matter how good it looks or works or fits with experimental data, a model is a representation, not exactly the real thing. As discovered when Newtownian physics were determined to be a special case of relativity where v << c. Models expand and change as experimentation breaks expectations.

    In science, no matter how well supported by observations, a theory is a theory until proven by repeatable experiments. Understanding of observations is often changed by experimentation. Theories should then expand and change to encompass repeatable experimental results. Theories without expermimentation have real utility, but should not be considered as proven. Prevailing and widely accepted theory not withstanding.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  30. Re:What's wrong with that? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
    Good Lord! With as many false positives as this Wikipedia article claims, I'd question the use of that test, and the sanity of your doctor.


    "normal elevation. 75% of AF AFP test results in the range 2.0 to 4.9 MoM are false positives: the baby is normal."

    Emphasis added.

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  31. Baby's Named a Bad Bad Thing by jefu · · Score: 1

    You have triggered a mandatory reference to Baby's Named a Bad Bad Thing . No other penalties accrue at this time.

  32. BUT... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Mitocodrial DNA is very effective at tracking migration patterns of populations. Even if the Y-side or autosomal data shows some mixing in of other genes, that still negates the possibility of "different origins".

  33. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 1

    There's an enormous difference between the proper skeptical view required for good science and the "This is too complicated for me to personally understand so it must be wrong, let's go shopping!" attitude displayed by the global warming denier and anti-evolution crowds.

    --
    If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
  34. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

    IMHO, an open mind should be, well, open.

    That's right... just not so open that your brain falls out. Hence why I happily close my mind to, for example, the ramblings of ID proponents.

  35. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    You might want to look around at your feet for something gray and roughly hemispherical. ;-)

    If you don't listen to others, despite their differing views, you'll never know if they have (or have stumbled) upon a substantive and salient point that deserves your attention. If you don't respect the "opposition" enough to listen, why should they respect you enough to listen to you? People are, in my experience, much more likely to listen to you if you are attentive, respectful and not dismissive while arguing your point of view. Civil dialog requires that you allow the conversation to go in both directions, even if you don't receive value every time. Lectures are not dialog.

    This is not to say that you must "suffer fools," in an unlimited fashion. You might try one of my favorites, "I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this until more data comes in." Then change the subject.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  36. Re:What's wrong with that? by TheTyrannyOfForcedRe · · Score: 1

    I don't get this attachment to a specific unborn fetus. Ok, so maybe you have to abort one or two here or there. Where's the problem? Just have sex again. A woman has the potential to create 12 new fetus every year.

    No one should be having more than two kids anyway. In fact, plenty of people should be self-limiting to one or none.

    --
    "Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
  37. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by kevin42 · · Score: 1

    I think you are confusing a theory and a hypothesis (or a hypothetical theory). A theory isn't really proven by experiments, but a hypothesis is. A theory changes as evidence changes.

  38. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

    People are, in my experience, much more likely to listen to you if you are attentive, respectful and not dismissive while arguing your point of view.

    You're convolving an open mind (one willing to accept new ideas and facts) with a civil one. My mind is not open to Intelligent Design because it's a dressed up version of creationism, and as such has no explanatory or predictive power and is not a valid scientific theory. Will I be respectful in a debate with someone on the topic? Certainly. But I will happily reject their ideas out of hand because they are, frankly, ridiculous.

  39. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    Most Anthropomorphic Climate Change (ACC) deniers I've heard don't argue the observations of average temperature increases, but argue the root causes and/or significance of these observations. They also argue the projections offered by ACC promoters as scientifically unsound or overly dire (read: hand picked data).

    The "anti-evolution" crowd is very diverse and hard to characterize. I'm part of the "anti-evolution as unassailable fact" crowd. For some, like myself, we simply prefer to allow the theory to be a prevailing theory without asserting that it is absolute truth and completely correct in it's current form. It is the best explanation that science can offer at the moment based on the data, but it does not lend itself to experimental verification. I expect the various theories which are generally grouped as "the theory of evolution" to be adjusted and rewritten as more data become available. I expect the DNA revolution to rewrite several prevailing theories as we gain even more insight in to human and animal genomes.

    All or nothing approaches to dialog tend to leave one with the latter.
    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  40. Re:What's wrong with that? by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    That's my point. How often is medical advice given without a clear understanding of the statistical significance of the data behind it?

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  41. Public abortionists are no more impartial than... by patio11 · · Score: 1

    ... public school teachers. They'll have their own union, which will vigorously work to expand their budget by touting how totally dependent society is on them. You think the Public Reproductive Health Professionals Union is going to be politically neutral on the question "Should the abortion regime in the United States be determined by state legislatures instead of the U.S. Supreme Court?" Hah. I'm sure they'd sit by as a giant portion of their membership saw their practices illegalized.

    (Note for non-Americans: the 50 American states have vastly differing levels of support for abortion. At least two dozen of them would have laws banning all abortions except in the case of rape, incest, or severe risk to the mother within 24 hours of those laws being declared constitutional. On the other hand, California and New York would presumably choose a regulatory regime similar to the one currently in place, probably with a few minor pro-life victories at the margin like on partial-birth abortion, which polls well essentially nowhere.)

    Even in the absence of "Oh, wait, as public employees we have the best incentive for political activism because we can vote ourselves money", cash isn't the only reward someone can work for. There are plenty of folks who work for Planned Parenthood who get the same thing out of their job that the lay workers at a Catholic church get out of theirs: the feeling of satisfaction from doing that something they sincerely believe to be good.

  42. Re:What's wrong with that? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

    We decided not to. Good thing too, because that medical advice has since been found to be invalid. She did not develop Down's and she's in college now.

    Because if you had aborted, then had another child who grew up and went to college, the difference would have been...?

    To put it crudely, babies are - for all practical purposes - a resource with infinite supply. Lots of people seem to lose sight of that.

  43. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All your base pairs are belong to us!

  44. Genetic Distinction by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't get this attachment to a specific unborn fetus. Ok, so maybe you have to abort one or two here or there. Where's the problem? Just have sex again. A woman has the potential to create 12 new fetus every year. No one should be having more than two kids anyway. In fact, plenty of people should be self-limiting to one or none.

    It's clear from your cavalier approach that I value potential life differently than you. IMO, the fetus is not part of the woman's body once the egg is fertilized. It is internal to the woman's body and dependent upon it to be sure, but the fetus is, at that point, genetically distinct and will generally, barring adverse action, come to be a unique human being.

    As my story above illustrates, medical advice is often provided as unassailable fact with woefully inadequate understanding of the studies and statistics upon which it is based. See the false positive info from Muad'Dave above. In many cases, it's more a crap shoot in random gravity, than reliable fact.

    I chose not to end a human life based on a recommendation that turned out to be based on flawed data. I am loathe to encourage anyone else to end a human life under uncertain circumstances. There exists reasonable doubt. And where reasonable doubt exists, we should not impose a death penalty.
    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  45. Re:What's wrong with that? by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    Please see Genetic Distinction above. I'm all typed out.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  46. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly, this is true in all cases except for Global Warming. The science is settled. Any new or existing data that contradicts the conclusions made by the "consensus" must be ignored, and persons pushing such data must be silenced.

  47. and the llost tribes of Isreal too by peter303 · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you read the Mormon books. (I've been seeing too many FLDS stories on the tely lately.)

  48. big if by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    If it's science, it should ALWAYS be open for reinterpretation as more data is collected and as analysis techniques improve or are replaced with better procedures.
    IMHO, an open mind should be, well, open. Actually, I've observed that many (including not a few scientists) defending evolutionary theory tend to be more dogmatic and less open to discussion If they are defending, it means they are attacked. When your door is open and you are attacked, you close the door.

    That's because they are being pestered by people with closed minds who try to force things that are NOT SCIENCE into their science.
    Open minded scientists are obviously not interested in discussions with close minded obscurantists. That doesn't mean the scientists aren't open minded, that means they aren't dupes to sheepskin labcoats worn over the shoulders of lupine evangelists.

    In science, no matter how well supported by observations, a theory is a theory until proven by repeatable experiments. See, just like that nonsense. A theory is still a theory after proven by experiments. DUH!
    Open minded scientists are not interested in discussions with people who don't even understand something so simple, yet want to argue something much more complex.
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  49. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    Most Anthropomorphic Climate Change (ACC) deniers I've heard don't argue the observations of average temperature increases, but argue the root causes and/or significance of these observations.

    That's the latest strategy. At first they argued the data was wrong, and many still do.
    Then when the data became overwhelming they moved the goalpost to "you can't prove I did it, nobody saw me do it".
    Then they added a new front in the form of "what if it's a good thing, warm weather is nice!".

    The only constant is the hardline "no, we will not change the way we make money".
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  50. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    "I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this until more data comes in." Then change the subject. So you defer until "tomorrow" the argument that you don't want to have today.

    But they'll be back, they'll go to their pastor, get another bullshit "data" argument fed to them, and they'll bring it back, with an air of "haha! I got you now" about them.
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  51. Re:Open For Reinterpretation by grikdog · · Score: 1

    "Unassailable fact..."? I dunno. I put my faith in DNA cladistics, rather than taxonomy. The old form-and-function studies clearly belong with the dinosaurs these days (since fossils that old apparently don't preserve DNA). But if you look at dead-certain DNA clades for "obviously unrelated" (according to plant taxonomy) but nearly invariant (according to DNA) stuff like lotus lilies and plane trees (sycamores to us Midwesterners), then you get a really weird jolt.

    It appears that DNA is extremely plastic, making Evolution extremely easy. In other words, species are a complete misreading of what's going on (little more than a cultural preference for Nouns instead of Verbs), and Darwin not only had it right, but had it righter than anyone prior to Watson & Crick could possibly have imagined.

    The thing that makes variation go is the ability of DNA to conform itself like clay to gaps broadly opened by the ecosystem. That means so much for taxonomic "family trees," because any species capable of sex contains an entire Australia in its genes, regardless of starting point! And, considering some recent studies in apomictic species like dandelions, maybe even the sex part is optional.

    --
    ``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
  52. Little problem with your reasoning. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Abortion laws are more restrictive in Europe because sex education is immensely better, thus far less people need late abortions (past 12 weeks) since they are better informed about their reproductive physiology.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  53. Intelligence measured by a rubber yardstick by gobbo · · Score: 1

    I have turned out with a high IQ score and have done quite well academically. My parents never pushed me toward it, and my redneck-middile-of-nowhere school didn't either. This was done completely on my own, and was only slightly complicated by my impoverished upbringing. It did make things difficult, but I motivated myself to overcome it. The same is not true, however, for my two younger siblings. Good point. Does economic success mark intelligence? You showed more than IQ in getting out of the situation.

    I come from middle-class privilege (relatively--hard circumstances, broken family, stress and hellish problems, but enough money). My sister is of average intelligence but uneducated, and not curious; worked hard, got lucky, and could retire at age 40. I'm brainy in a weird way, sometimes scary smart to others, but hampered in other (nerdly) ways by that. I'm not interested in wealth, and have always been debtless but nearly broke.

    Anyone comparing us would point to me as more "intelligent" yet not as smart as her. I concur, she's the smart one.

    There's canny, there's clever, there's deep, there's skilled, there's insightful, there's eidetic memory, there's a bevy of words to describe intelligence. Likewise, there are many markers of success, and everything's context. Cue the zen koans; you can't puzzle this out with the simple matrix of genes - IQ - culture - class.
  54. Absolute laws are abusive. by gobbo · · Score: 1

    I have this great photo of my spouse at 9.5 months pregnant in the pub hoisting a glass of stout... with the midwives. An hour later, our son was born.

    At that very late stage of pregnancy a proper dose of nutritious alcohol isn't a bad thing, in fact it was just the thing to induce labour. But you should have seen the looks on the faces of the other customers! Especially as she put down the nearly empty glass, and got up to walk to the car, saying "it's time, aaah, go go go!"

    Alcohol at any dose is primarily risky when the nervous system is forming, during the first trimester of pregnancy. After that, be very very careful, and at the end, it can be an aid. Like most things medicinal, it isn't cut and dry, and any laws to the contrary might have endangered our son, who needed to come out that day.

  55. Alternately... by Moraelin · · Score: 1
    Alternately, I suspect that most humans would rather be left in peace, if they have a choice.

    Think basically of the infamous Goering quote:

    Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?

            Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

            Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

            Göring: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.


    I think basically the same applies: Why would some poor hunter-gatherer slob want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his hunting in one piece?

    Humanity for the most part has been subject to some pretty nasty cycles of overpopulation, famine, etc, which resulted war. Overpopulation has only been solved recently when, basically, it became a given that if you make 1-2 kids, chances good are they'll survive. So no need to make 10 to beat the odds. Women have better chances to survive too, so there goes another reason to attack the next tribe. Famine was another big motivation for war too: when the alternative is literally starvation, "better them than us" arguments are a lot easier to swallow. And hunter-gatherers were particularly vulnerable, due to the natural cycles of predator and prey, plus the nasty effect that overpopulation actually pushes the prey populations down, amplifying the effects of that. (To get an idea: Neanderthals actually managed to push themselves into extinction by over-hunting what they could hunt with their tech level.) Nowadays even if you live on a reservation, I'm guessing you can rely on the government or humanitarian organizations to pull you out of shit anyway, if it hits the fan. Etc.

    Why _would_ you go to war with another tribe nowadays? What would you gain?

    Culture and enculturation _may_ have slowed things down, mind you. After a few thousands of years of chest-thumping about being teh fearless and aggressive warrior, and one's standing in the community depending on that image, it doesn't go away easily. People will continue chest-thumping just so they don't lose face. Groupthink... err... enculturation works that way.

    But after a couple of generations, people start to take it for a given that, wth, there's no _point_ in raiding the next tribe. And there's even less point in trying to raid the white man's towns, because the darned white man in the meantime has tanks and machineguns and other nasty stuff.

    Basically I'm guessing there wasn't anything special, nor especially peaceful or spiritual about those who survived. They just turned out to be, well, humans. No better and no worse than the white guys and gals around them, and no better or worse than the tribes which didn't make it either. It was the conditions that changed, not the people that were any special. And the people changed as a result, same as everyone else would and did.
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  56. Re:What's wrong with that? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    That's actually a valid point.
    Since western society moved from 8+ to 1.7 children per couple, the main investment is in raising the kid (education etc.)
    Having a kid (or not) in the first place isn't the big deal, since child mortality isn't a big selector and pregnancy isn't a life threatening condition any more.

  57. power dynamics by gobbo · · Score: 1

    Marx and Engels don't actually corner the market ('scuse the pun) in 21st century thinking about social power.

    Current theory in power relations is heavily influenced by Foucault and structuralists and scholars like Frederic Jameson, and systems theorists like Bateson. Remember, context is everything, so that a person in one situation and moment can be abusing their power, and in the next be the abused, due to a shift in the 'story' or rules. The narratives of oppression, such as slavery or settler-aboriginal, are pretty persistent, and run through modern society in complex ways. Some people actually still think that way, and try to spread their ideas. Usually, the oppressed in any situation contributes to their own oppression through all kinds of denial, or unstrategic resistance. Privilege is often denied in polite situations to disguise embarassing responsibilities, which makes it harder to clear things up.

    Ideology is like halitosis: it's someone else's problem.

  58. Re:What's wrong with that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To put it crudely, babies are - for all practical purposes - a resource with infinite supply. Lots of people seem to lose sight of that. Yes, but then it's such a waste to abort, when, according to a well-informed source:

    "A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragout."

    This could solve the coming food crisis and supplement the income of poor mothers. Now, the only thing we lack is some way to use babies to fuel our SUVs...
  59. Early Chinese maritime technology. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    Considering the remarkable ability of Chinese vessels in the era before Christ we may have Chinese settlers in early South America.

    I've listened in on the discussions over whether or not the Chinese "beat" Columbus to discovering the Americas, but not been terribly interested (if they got there, they didn't settle or stay, for whatever reason). However I've never heard any proposition that the Chinese were doing this 2 millennia ago. 600 years ago, yes, I've heard that, but not two millennia.

    Please cite your sources supporting a date significantly before the year 1400 (on the Gregorian/ Julian calendar) for a Chinese trans-Pacific voyage.

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the original article sounds worth a proper read. Which I'm going to do once I've scanned the commentary. My take on an alleged association between the Orcadians and north Siberians would be to look at the Vikings, who were certainly present in Orkney, and were operating in the "Mediæval climactic optimum" ; I wouldn't put a bit of North-Siberian seed-sowing past them.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  60. India pre-dates China ????. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    India was a nation long before China was even populated.
    Your evidence for this assertion is?
    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    1. Re:India pre-dates China ????. by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      About 5 thousand years of history? The Indus River valley?

      Culturally, early Chinese society was more Indian than what we currently identify as "Chinese". Much of the pre-history/early history of China is shaped by mythological retelling and cultural identity.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    2. Re:India pre-dates China ????. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      [In answer to a request for evidence to back up a claim that India was civilized before China was "even populated."]
      About 5 thousand years of history? The Indus River valley?
      Culturally, early Chinese society was more Indian than what we currently identify as "Chinese". Much of the pre-history/early history of China is shaped by mythological retelling and cultural identity.

      The Indus River Valley civilisation, if you'll pardon my spelling, cities such as "Mojhendro daro", the proto-writing that may be embodied by the abundant seals and "identity markings" found in the artefacts ... yes, I'm moderately familiar with the civilisation ; 5000 years ago sounds about right for that civilisation. Approximately contemporaneous with the stone circles that surround sub-tropical Aberdeen here, or even Stonehenge and Durrington Walls (if you were watching the Nat.Geo. programme last night). All very well and good. This establishes that India (loosely, in a pre-Partition sense) had a significant civilisation in excess of 5000 years ago. Which is one half of your assertion.
      The other half of your assertion is that China wasn't even populated at this time. Considering that pre-human anthropoid apes have been reported from fossil sites from China for around a century, with dating going back to 1.7 million years ; that hearth sites have been dated back as far as 1.36million years; that all realistic (non-alien astronaut) theories of the peopling of the Americas have that initial Western hemisphere population passing through the general area of Mongolia/ North China prior to ca.14000 BP ; that China has an extensive and increasing record of pottery discoveries (see this paper for example, "In late 1980s and 1990s, more cave sites were excavated in southern China. Within these sites, five pieces of early pottery sherds were found from layer 5 at Miaoyan, in Guilin, Guangxi Province; the pottery samples were dated to 15660±260 b.p. [...] and 15560±500 b.p. [...]. Two pottery pots unearthed at Yuchanyan [...] dated to 14810±230 b.p. [...] and 12320±120 b.p.[...]" ; that semi-historical records reported in China in the early years BC imply dates for the then-documented history going back to before 2000BC or before 4000BP.

      It is very difficult to have a civilisation appear without a significant population, and the presence of the strongly prehistoric pottery dated to over 10000BP coupled with the non-trivial documentary evidence for an organised, bureaucratic civilisation around 4000BP makes your assertion that "India was civilised before China was populated" unsupportable, in my opinion.

      (I note that the Wikipedia article on the Indus Valley (a.k.a Harappan) civilisation puts it's dates around 2600-1700 BC, which is 4600-3700 BP and thus overlapping with the Chinese documentary indications. Which makes it post-date a number of our local artefacts.)

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  61. Re:What's wrong with that? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    Our second daughter had an unusual protein count AFP [wikipedia.org] in her amniotic fluid and the medical staff told us that she was very likely to have Down's syndrome.

    Not being a pædiatrician, I'll take that as read : that an unusual AFP protein count is associated with an increased probability of the ftus having trisomy-21. It's a probabilistic thing, not a on/off measurement.

    She did not develop Down's and she's in college now.
    The foetus that developed into your daughter hasn't ever had trisomy-21. There may be some other abnormality that lead to the AFP oddity, but it obviously hasn't had any serious effects (yet). A human that's more developed than the first cellular division cannot develop trisomy-21 (actually, I don't think it can develop any later than reduction-division to form the gametes).
    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  62. Africa resists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Disease resistance and poorly armed = cheap forced labor

    Much cheaper than the other ethnicities in the old Arab slave markets. The Spanish enslaved pretty much every native they found, but they died off very quickly due to disease. Thus, the African was introduced into the Americas...

  63. Re:What's wrong with that? by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but I refuse to "commoditize" human life. I have no wish to be treated primarily as a commodity. My labor, OK. My life, no way.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo