Slashdot Mirror
H-1B Foes Challenge Bush Administration In Court
theodp writes "Computerworld reports that the Bush administration's recent decision to extend the amount of time foreign nationals can work in the U.S. on student visas is being challenged in a federal lawsuit by H-1B visa opponents. The suit, filed in US District Court by the Immigration Reform Law Institute and joined by The Programmers Guild and other groups, charges that the administration — acting through the Department of Homeland Security — exceeded its legal authority with a no-notice-no-comments 'emergency' rule change that extended the Optional Practical Training work period from one year to 29 months. Critics say this is little more than an effort to skirt around the H-1B cap limit. Because extended stays are limited to those whose degrees are in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) fields, educators are speculating that the rule change will drive international students away from non-STEM majors."
The fact of the matter we need to increase educational spending so we lessen the need for things like H-1B's. Let alone bickering about a supposed increased cap.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
Why do people keep implying that insisting that immigrants come here legally (and in this case, discussing what that will mean) is the same thing as insisting that they are unwelcome? Do you not see the dishonesty of that?
Saying that this is a "land of immigrants", while true, is also irrelevant since no one is trying to prove that it isn't. The issue being settled is the duration of a visa. The argument is how much time is needed to realize the stated purpose of the visa. You first have to have immigrants (more like visitors, in this case) who are welcome here before there is a question of how long they may stay.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Note that there are no mention of non-poor, well-educated people
I left the US, and now work for a company in a country which gives me 5 weeks vacation each year, with pay comparable to what I would have gotten in the Bay Area. And I don't have to worry about the visa crap or whether I will get a green card.
Je ne parle pas francais.
H1B has turned into a huge scam for corporate slavery. Employers know they can get cheap labor and throw them away when done. Most visas go to giant corporations like MicroSoft. If we want to "welcome the tired and huddle masses" then re-open Ellis Island and take them in and give them Green Cards or Citizenship papers and let them walk into a free country and decide what to do. This equine excrement that ties them to the sponsoring employer should be viewed for what it is which is a disposable cheap worker program.
Anything that reduces the number of lawyers is good, right? Except, of course, since this means that fewer will go into law, existing lawyers will have less competition, so more opportunity to a$$rape their clients. So this is bad, right?
Norway.
BTW, I did love living in the Bay Area. Love the energy of the area. Norway doesn't have a tech area like the Bay Area. Oslo is more finance than tech (but most tech jobs seem to be in the Oslo area).
The reason for the extension of the OPT is that Congress wouldn't increase the H1b quota. The problem then is that the quota is filled the first day it is available (April 1st), which is before anyone studying in the US has graduated. And you can't apply for an H1b (or your job can't if you can get one) before you have graduated.
Je ne parle pas francais.
We need to start looking at reducing administration costs of the school systems and using the money on teachers and student needs. Look at most major cities, their cost per student can be double what outlying areas have and the majority of it can be traced to anything but teachers and students. What good is throwing money at public schools if the money isn't going to improve our children? Too many city schools are jobs programs for friends of the political powers. Dumping grounds for cronies. If that county school can graduate more students at a higher GPA and their students do better in higher education all the while costing the local taxpayers less how is the city's problem money related?
I would prefer more options for parents to send their children to schools of their choice. This means the dreaded "voucher". Make it so the money follows the child and not the school. This might be the only kick in the pants some school systems will understand. We have great teachers. We spend more than enough to educate the children we have, we just spend it wrong.
The easy solution is to "throw money at the problem" but that is used as an excuse to rid ourselves of the responsibility for making the hard choices. All we get with this thrown money is more cronies. I read my local "paper" to see schools with trailers and look at the changes that go on the system. What do I notice most after capital improvements? How many more people in non teaching positions crop up. Suddenly there are committees paid out of school funds to do work already done elsewhere or not needed. More money means more government employees, not necessarily teachers.
Sorry, no more money. Account for what they have. They owe to the children. We owe it the children.
Education here is not the reason we have H1 visas. We have those because politicians put more value on the money of corporations than the people who elect them. Do any of the three current candidates support scrapping this?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Ezekiel 23:20
Because they are simple-minded and that doesn't fit with their skewed world view.
Or, it could be that they are just malicious and assume everyone is the same as they are.
Or, they are arrogant and self-righteous, so any opinion that does not agree with theirs is automatically evil.
The possibilities are almost endless
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
regardless of what you think of immigration, education, H1B's, and DHS, why are so many comments about immigration, employers, etc - and not governmental abuse of power?
if anyone would like to explain how using emergency powers in a non-emergency setting isn't abuse, please, step up to the plate.
the united states is a nation of laws; badly written and randomly enforced -- frank zappa
Let me guess:
I want your money, and I want your goods, but you can keep your sorry non-white ass out of my country.
Is this roughly what you're hinting at?
It might appear that I'm trolling, but I'm very much not -- I'm honestly interested if this is what 0xdeadbeef means.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
I think the view is that it should be easier for immigrants to come to the US legally.
Which brings up the broader issue, how do we define "state of emergency", and how do we put saner limits on who gets to say?
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Are foreign students suddenly less a "threat"? What changed?
It may have something to do with hundreds of millions per annum being lost because all those now 'suspect' chinese students that used to go to university in the states have started to go to Europe instead.
Its been great for England, my gosh yes, the extra revenue was seriously needed, but not so great for the US. Last I heard some US Universities were having serious problems trying to make up for the loss of that money.
Oddly enough European society has completely failed to collapse, and we haven't found ourselves dealing with hordes of evil Chinese people plotting to take over our countries.
Personally it helped me learn how to make some really good Chinese meals.
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
Certain skills still are in strong demand, says Ms. Chota, adding that the company can't find enough qualified graduates with degrees in computer science and those who have knowledge of both business and IT. "In the U.S., unfortunately, there are not enough great computer-science graduates," Ms. Chota says.""
Um excuse me? So, Americans are not good enough for IBM. Even though they go to the same great American universities just like the smarter foreigners.
So, which is it?!?
You cannot "immigrate illegally". Why do you, the freedom-loving Americans, deny the people the basic right of moving anywhere they want to?
It's unnatural, unfair and counterproductive to criminalize people for just coming to your country. Why not go further and impose Soviet-like registration of citizens, penalizing them for moving from state to state or even from city to city "illegally"? It's the same way of thinking.
Coding etudes
It's not a lack of money, it's a failure of system.
Instead of encouraging the gifted, the money is pumped into classes for those that are either unwilling or unable to learn. It sounds hard, but some people are just plain dumb. So be it. That money goes poof because you can't make a horse drink, no matter how much water you drown it in.
Second, schools dumb down tests to meet the requirements to get more money. Now, how does that improve learning? Sure, all your students get straight As, wonderful, but that doesn't give them anything in the long run when this A just means that he can do basic math because advanced subjects are brushed aside since teaching (and testing) them would lower the all precious average score.
I had the chance to look at the math of an average, non-private high school final class. Personally, I was appalled. The things this test asked for are fitting for junior high at best, when you compare it to Europe. Basic trignometry was the most complex subject, the whole thing was completely devoid of any integration/differentiation, probability calculation or systems of equation with more than two variables. It was completely spoonfed, not a single question dealt with creating your own equations from a text instruction.
Now how does this prepare you for anything advanced, or any real life applications? Which is, IMO, the primary goal of high school education.
I can't talk about other subjects, but in math at least the US school system fails miserably.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The lottery system you refer to isn't the only way to get an H1B. That "game" was invented as a way to increase the diversity of people immigrating. My guess is that the US has similar problems a lot of other "first world" countries have: They are the primary goal of people from certain countries. France has its Maghreb (i.e. northern Africa), Germany has Turkey and the US have Mexico. People from those areas and countries emigrate primarily to a certain country.
What all those "target" countries fear is a strong, united "foreign block" that may abuse the democratic system to muscle for more say and more cultural influence. You can already notice it how candidates start wooing those immigrants by offering them something that is not necessarily in the interest of the rest of the people who are not from those areas.
That's what this immigration lottery is about. When you look carefully, you'll see that certain countries may not participate. Why do you think is it that way?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That's the reason I won't work in the US. I always get a giggle fit when the guy at INS asks me whether I plan to work there (having a travel visa when you're on the visa waiver list sure raises some brows, I tell you...).
Let's see, I get 5 weeks of paid vacation, free health care, free retirement insurance, free accident and handicap insurance, free and limitless unemployment insurance, secured workplace even when I'm sick for 2 months (they can't lay me off just because I'm sick), cheap housing and more money than in the US (especially with the current USD:EUR rate). Care to tell me again why I should want to work in the US?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Essentially, Homeland Security is now in charge of all immigration issues. State, which properly oversees such matters, has been reduced to a hollow shell (and not just on immigration; the Bush administration has basically been waging war on the entire department since the run-up to the Iraq war.) DHS is a hydra which has taken on many formerly well-defined functions of other departments and handles none of them well.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
DHS controls ICE see: http://www.ice.gov/about/faq.htm my ICD and API docs come with a nice big seal from DHS. So yes, the number of issued visas is under the DHS purview. The particulars of how a visa is granted, why, and to whom are not under direct control of DHS... merely the number, adjudication, and tracking.
Prior to 2003 these authorities were held by the DoJ but they shifted to DHS.
Who is inside the country is a data point that DHS is decidedly interested in. This is a reality I work with every single day as I develop software that tracks the whereabouts of visa holders.
[signature]
The CS program attendance plummeted at the same time salaries and job security in the field plummeted.
The talent is there, they don't want to work in a field where companies don't want to reward them.
They can't get americans to buy their crappy pay, benefits, and job security, so they want to farm out slave labor they can have deported at their whim.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
How is this online? (Section: YRO.) Shouldn't it be in Politics?
There is a shortage of H1Bs in the first place because a lot of Indian consulting companies (bodyshoppers) get a majority of the H1B quota and the students with OPTs are left in the lurch (aka an OPT is pretty much worthless now).
How do these companies get away with it? This is how it works. You are:
1. Married to an H1B holder and can legally work. The bodyshopper gets you an H1B visa and tells the INS that *you* are employed by this consultant but you do not get any pay till the consultant gets a contract from some company and you start earning money. Yes, this is illegal but 99% of the consulting companies in the US do this. The employee bears it since this is the only way to get valid status.
2. Are outside the US and want to come in to work but do not have a job. However there is this Indian consulting firm and read the rest of point 1 above
3. In the US but have been laid off and you cannot have a job without a visa and vice-versa. Read rest of point 1 above
4. Are a student about to graduate with an OPT which is worthless (1 year duration) since the consulting companies with their "fake jobs" have gobbled up all the visas.
OPT with it's 1 year duration used to mean something but with these blood-sucking consulting companies in the US, the students either hope to get a job in a good company out of school and pray the company processes H1 after the OPT duration is up. Prolonging the OPT is a fix for the students who come to the US and rough it out unlike the body-shopper import employees.
Although I said Indian consulting companies, the evil trend isn't restricted to Indian companies. Volt Computer Services (largest supplier of contractors to Microsoft, most companies in Bellevue/Seattle, etc etc) does this. I myself was a victim of Volt hiring me during my OPT period, using me for the duration of my OPT (MS paid Volt 60$ per hour and Volt paid me 20$ per hour) and then when my OPT was up, they said "Adios amigo". They contacted INS and said I was no longer their employee, gave me a ticket voucher for 1000$ and said buhbye. I had to find an Indian consultant willing to take me in so he could suck more blood from me.
It's all a fucking dirty business. I have to post this anonymously since uhhh one of employers still gets contractors from Volt. I however got into my current company through another consulting company which will remain unnamed; however Volt made sure they became the near exclusive supplier of contractors.
"Care to tell me again why I should want to work in the US?"
Come on, tell the truth. You miss the boot on the face. The hobnails. The twisting, blood-squirting fun of it all!
emt 377 emt 4
You're confusing the green card diversity lottery with the H-1B lottery.
There are 65,000 H-1B's available for the year (20,000 of them reserved for "advanced degree" holders), and there were over 163,000 applications within the first five days of the filing period. This year, all H-1Bs, even the 20,000 in the advanced degree block, are being assigned by lottery.
There is no other way to get one.
The most hurt by this will be Americans. These graduates won't disappear from the face of the earth, they'll just be working for Microsoft, IBM, Google, etc. in Europe, India, and China, make their inventions there, start startups there, and pay their taxes there. No US job will be saved by this action; to the contrary, as more and more R&D moves overseas, the supporting jobs will move with them.
Of course, if the H-1b foes persist in this, it also completely screws people who have lived in the US for many years. But they aren't Americans, so who cares, right?
H1B has turned into a huge scam for corporate slavery. Employers know they can get cheap labor and throw them away when done.
That's a big stinking lie because H-1b visas have been portable for several years now; H-1b employees can simply change jobs.
take them in and give them Green Cards or
That's a nice theory, except that immigration foes have already made that impossible; the green card process has become so lengthy and involved that the way to get an employment based green card is to come in on an H-1b, immediately apply for a green card, and hope everything works out in time.
How is this insightful? I know plenty of fellow graduates (Canadians) who are making $100K+ fresh out of college. That's not "crappy pay" by any measure I think (these are undergrad degrees, not masters or PhD). Their benefits are also among the best - I know plenty of H1B people at MS who are probably getting *better* medical insurance than they had in Canada! Their vacation and stock plans aren't too shabby either.
I have observed first-hand the shortage of tech workers. We're talking top-tier tech workers, not VB script monkeys. There are PLENTY of great grads coming out of American schools - but it is *not enough* to fuel what I see is a surging demand for skilled coders.
So stop twisting IBM's words. It's absolutely true - there are plenty of talented students coming out of American schools - but not enough. Just because there aren't enough MIT grads to go around doesn't mean IBM needs to start hiring community college code monkeys.
I'm happy this is finally happening. Why the hell should we educate them and then let them work for less money and displace others of us who deserve those positions.
You know, that remark is so stupid that I'm not sure you can even be serious, but I suppose there must be a reason you have trouble finding a good job. So, let's walk through this.
Why do you think the US (usually foundations and universities) are investing $500k in the education of these students? It's because they can't find Americans willing and capable of getting educated in these areas. So, after all that money is invested, you just want to send them away. What do you think they are going to do with their $500k education in India or China or Europe or Canada? Plant rice? Perform folk dances for American tourists? Work as bartenders?
I'll tell you what they'll do: they'll work for Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, Google, whatever. Or they'll start their own startups and compete with US companies.
You won't get a job out of this. If Oracle doesn't want you now, refusing an H-1b visa to the candidate they want won't make them hire you. Instead, they'll just move that job and all the required support staff to countries where they can hire the candidates they want to hire.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
- Reading
- Riting
- Rithmetic
- Relationships
- Reviewing
- Responsibility
- Reflecting
- Researching
- Reporting
- Reasoning
- Retention
- Resolve
If I want to employ somebody at any level I need every single one of these.By the way: Now you know the objectives you can ask how they are/should be achieved. For example you can't develop Responsibility without trust...And you have to reward it. So Do you ever see that on TV? Do parents or teachers know how to do it? - - - Discuss.
Indeed. I am from the US and have worked in Europe for many years. I loved living in Europe, I loved having 6 weeks of vacation per year and being paid in Euros is a nice perk these days.
There is a downside to all that nicety however. Unemployment tends to be high. Try finding a job in southern Germany, even with the qualifications. Be prepared for a long and painful job search. I saw a friend - an engineer - search for a job for two years so that the could live in the same city as his wife. Why? Companies are reluctant to hire people because they can't fire them so easily. Try starting a company in Europe. Try getting VC. Better yet, start a company and fail at the first go. In the US, that would be shrugged off as a learning experience. In Europe, it makes you a lepper.
I'm in India right now and I see something different. I see a place where new tech parks are rising like crabgrass and replacing shacks. I see people equally as intelligent as their counterparts in Europe and the US willing to work much harder (already in school).
Are you trolling, or do you seriously believe that people have a right to move wherever in the world they want to? I mean, if you seriously believe that, I don't have a bridge to sell you, but I do have some blackhat friends you should meet. That is, if you're willing to exercise the same God-given right as them and move to the West Bank.
Oh, and since we have the right to move wherever we like, I'm sending an invasion force of immigrants to Japan. Once there they'll vote themselves a roughly Anglo-European system of government, but they've got a right to go there and swamp the aging population.
They can't get americans to buy their crappy pay, benefits, and job security, so they want to farm out slave labor they can have deported at their whim.
Oh cry me a river!
From the US Dept. of Labor:
In May 2006, median annual earnings of wage-and-salary computer applications software engineers were $79,780.
In May 2006, median annual earnings of wage-and-salary computer systems software engineers were $85,370.
How can you possibly suggest that a salary like that qualifies as "slave labor?" That's well above the median income of $46,326 in the U.S. per the U.S. Census. Are you aware that there are real cases of slave labor in the U.S? Such as those where a person has to work 2-3 jobs, gets no benefits, vacation, or job security, and still makes less than the poverty line?
The whiney upper-middle classers need to wake up and stop crying about their employers. As long as corporate abuse doesn't happen to them, they are ok with it. Well, guess what? India, China, and Japan are training top notch computer scientists and they are willing to work for less than Americans. That's called competition, and since that is what our capitalist economy thrives on (or so the Republicans/Libertarians keep saying), deal with it.
Because the supply of teachers is so high, those that are actually willing to sell their labor for that low of an amount tend to fall into two categories:
1) Teachers who "live to teach" and would do it no matter how much they are paid.
2) Teachers who have no other marketable skills and have no choice but to sell their labor as cheaply as possible.
As much as I would like to say that most teachers fall into category 1, the reality is that most fall into category 2. Those who have other skills outside of teaching will tend to move to those jobs, leaving only those with no other marketable skills (which, sadly, are often also the most unqualified teachers to boot) behind to teach.
The solution is actually simpler to say than it is to implement. The solution is to drastically reduce the supply of teachers while also increasing demand. To increase the demand for teachers, teachers need to have any idea of "tenure" removed. Poor performance = you are fired. No more rubberrooming of teachers. Also, the qualifications for teaching needs to be gradually increased, without any grandfathering. This will help reduce the supply side. The problem is that both of these are fraught with political pitfalls. As I said, much easier said than done.
The
Myths and Realities About the USA H1-B Program
Myth: H1-Bs are the "best and brightest"
Reality: If that were true then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Also, isn't it funny that almost all of the "best and brightest" come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day? If it's really about the "best and brightest" then why aren't there more European H1-Bs?
----
Myth: H1-Bs are needed because of the critical shortage of US technology workers
Reality: Serious academic studies clearly indicate that skills shortage is a myth.
> These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1081923#PaperDownload
This according to a well researched article at baselinemag.com:
http://tinyurl.com/yoy2rw
----
Myth: H1-Bs do compete unfairly, because H1-Bs are paid the prevailing wage
Reality:
> According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages, said Miano [founder of the Programmer's Guild].
> Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology (currently on leave) and a research associate at the Economic Policy Institute, pointed to USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh
According to the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service's (USCIS) annual report to Congress in 2005, the aggregate data for computing professionals lend support to the argument that the practice of paying H-1Bs below-market wages is quite common.
http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html
H1-Bs are hired at four different skill levels, "4" being the highest. But most H1-Bs are hired for the lowest "1" level jobs - regardless of what kind of work the H1-Bs actually do.
----
Myth: In the USA enrollment in technical disciplines is declining. Proof the USA needs to hire more foreign workers
Reality: This myth is designed to confuse cause and effect. Employers are not forced to hire offshore because enrollment is down. Rather, enrollment is down because of aggressive offshoring by employers. But even with enrollments down, there are still more than enough US workers.
> Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," said Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Euge
Uh, do you work in the school system? Do you have any experience or evidence to back your assertion that "teaching to the test" is a silly cliche? I worked as a tutor for math/physics/chemistry for high-school students while I was in university, and I can tell you that teaching to the test is a very real problem. I can give you lots of examples where I wanted to spend more time on making sure a student had a genuinely good fundamental comprehension of a subject, to make sure that they'd be properly prepared for university level courses, but because of preparing for standardized tests I had to settle for a 'good enough' rote repetition approach.
This leaves them not really understanding trig or algebra fundamentals but just memorizing a series of steps that will allow them to do one of the handful of 'types of problems' that you can expect to see on the test.
This is, of course, a problem that exists with testing in general to some degree. But the greater the separation between the person writing the test and the students, the worse this problem is. When you create an incentive to produce higher test scores, the focus becomes test scores, not actual learning. Testing, like democracy, is a 'worst of all systems - except for all the other ones' approach. It's not really a great way to run learning, but there aren't a lot of other options save really radical ideas like free schools. So focusing on tests as the end all and be all is misguided, at best.
Personally, given that many people in favor of standardized testing seem to be the sort who, philosophically, think that publicly funded schools are a communist plot, I can't help but wonder if there's a hidden agenda to deliberately sabotage the public school system, so that then in a few years, one can say "Well, they're really not working, so let's just privatize the schools'.
While it might be convenient amongst a certain fraction of the political spectrum to pretend that teachers are just lazy, overpaid selfish closet-socialists who are only in it for themselves and for the money, and that's why they fight tooth and nail against standardized tests, that doesn't hold up for 10 seconds. If somebody was motivated by selfish motives and money, what the fuck would they be doing working as a teacher? Why not do a commerce degree/mba/law degree and then go work for an investment bank if all you wanted was money?
I'm not saying there aren't lousy teachers. There really are. There's a lot of burnt-out teachers who have given up caring. But a great deal of teachers are in it for the love of it. Why the fuck else would they put up with working in the public school system?
There _MIGHT_ be a place for standardized tests at the much younger grade levels in say, math or reading comprehension (say, up to about grade 6 or so), but even then there's plenty of better ways to address problems. Standardized tests turns kids into robots, at best, kills creativity, and is indicative of someone peddling easy answers. So let's give a complex problem the respect it deserves.
What we need is sort of a "de-industrialization" of schools. The goals of a public school system in a democracy articulated by guys like Thomas Jefferson are not well served by Taylorism/'scientific management'. What we need is varied curricula and more individual attention based on the fact that people learn at different rate, and have different strengths and weaknesses. A school system is not a Ford assembly line.
The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
It's unnatural, unfair and counterproductive to criminalize people for just coming to your country.
You think it's only the US that has barriers to immigration? Try immigrating to ANY of the EU countries. Compares to that, immigrating to the US is about as easy as immigration gets.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato