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New Superconductor Found "Immune To Magnetism"

Lisandro sends in news that testing of the new class of superconductors we discussed a while back (compounds of iron, lanthanum, and rare earths) has turned up a major surprise: magnetism doesn't shut off the superconducting state. Magnetic fields represent one of three factors that limit expanded applications for superconductors (the others are current density and temperature dependence.) The research will appear in Nature; here's a preprint (PDF).

57 of 201 comments (clear)

  1. Another limit? by abbamouse · · Score: 2, Informative

    I seem to recall that one limit was simply the ceramic nature of most superconductors. If it isn't ductile, you can't use it for wires -- which are kind of important for most superconducting applications. Am I wrong about this?

    --
    Make cheese not war 8:)
    1. Re:Another limit? by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Informative

      You've reached the wrong conclusion; if it isn't ductile, you can't use it for wires that bend; however, you can certainly use it for wires that follow nonlinear paths.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:Another limit? by mshannon78660 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's a limitation, rather than a limit. Not being ductile makes it less convenient to use. With magnetism, current density and temperature, the superconductivity disappears as each value reaches a critical point (the limit).

    3. Re:Another limit? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Informative

      Right. You won't be running power lines made of ceramics (because of the temperature requirement too) but it's no problem for a fixed installation like a supercomputer.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:Another limit? by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, you won't be running power lines that swing in the air; but power lines in a channel in the ground are possible in regions where seismic activity isn't a threat. Anyway, you can certainly make wires out of ceramic superconductors, is all I was getting at.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    5. Re:Another limit? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 5, Funny

      Resistance is ductile.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    6. Re:Another limit? by JoeBuck · · Score: 4, Informative
      The original superconductors were metals for the most part, but only work at liquid helium temperatures. Then a new class of high-temperature superconductors were discovered, some of which work at liquid nitrogen temperatures; this second class is often called "cuprate superconductors" and they could be described as ceramic. The lack of ductility isn't as bad a problem as the low tolerance for magnetic field that still superconducts at 45 tesla (basically the strongest magnetic field the experimenters could produce).

      Since flowing current creates a magetic field, you can't use cuprate superconductors to carry large currents. Evidently a completely new class of materials has been discovered.

    7. Re:Another limit? by mark-t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Considering they haven't made a superconductor that can retain that property at anything even close to normal earth environment temperatures, I'd say worrying about that is a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

    8. Re:Another limit? by who+knows+my+name · · Score: 5, Informative

      optical fibres are amorphous, and definitely not ductile. However they are used for miles of cable. You can bend them a few degrees, which is all you really need. I suppose a superconducting ceramic would be worse, but you could still get a significant bend over a kilometre. I think the main barrier is still temperature, I think I read the best we have so far is just above the boiling point of Nitrogen, ~80K

      --
      Nothing to see here.
    9. Re:Another limit? by compro01 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, they're currently working on using a LN-cooled superconductor link in NYC to link some substations in Manhattan. It would replace an oil-cooled copper link. They're expecting to have it running in 2010.

      link

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    10. Re:Another limit? by negRo_slim · · Score: 4, Informative

      Aye.. the highest temperature superconductor is mercury thallium barium calcium copper oxide (Hg12Tl3Ba30Ca30Cu45O125) at 138 K.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    11. Re:Another limit? by caffeinated_bunsen · · Score: 5, Informative

      As I understand it, they embed the superconducting material in a soft, non-superconducting metal like silver. There's a proximity effect at boundaries between superconductors and normal metals which allows the superconducting state to extent a short distance into the normal metal -- think of it as the Cooper pairs leaving the superconductor and taking a bit of time to notice that they're in a normal metal and split into single electrons. If the layers of normal metal between the superconducting grains are thin enough, then the supercurrent can run from one grain to the next, through the normal metal, without experiencing resistance.

      The ductility of the metal allows some flexibility and tolerance for thermal expansion, as well as providing a low resistance at high temperatures. That's useful because the ceramic materials have rather high resistance when they're not superconducting, which means that if a small segment of wire warmed up above the transition temperature, its suddenly high resistance and the large current flowing through it would cause it to heat up extremely rapidly. The silver provides a secondary current path, so the wire's likely to heat up slowly enough to turn the power off before the wire melts.

      --

      Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
    12. Re:Another limit? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's okay for power lines but it's a real pain for anything that involves a coil. Unfortunately (aside from power lines) coils are involved in the majority of applications that might benefit from superconducting: magnets, motors, etc.

      Even power lines are a pain with ceramics because you can't easily extrude them to make a wire.

    13. Re:Another limit? by backwardMechanic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And you cool them to 4K how often?

    14. Re:Another limit? by flux+pinner · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are a variety of techniques (depending on the application) that manufacturers use to overcome the inherent brittle nature of most superconductors.

      For magnet windings, the preferred technique is to fabricate the wire from ductile precursors, draw to final size, wind the coil, and then perform a heat treatment to react the precursors and form the brittle, superconducting phase. This, for example, will be the technique used when brittle Nb3Sn is used in the magnets for the ITER project.

      A related solution is to grind the brittle superconductor into powder, insert it into a tube, and use the natural rolling and sliding action of the particles to draw the material into a fine wire that can be subsequently wound into a magnet, with a heat treatment employed to sinter the powder particles back together to form a continuous superconducting path. This is a common technique for MgB2 superconductors.

      For non-magnet applications (like power transmission), the preferred technique is to make a tape (e.g. YBCO) that has only a very thin layer of brittle superconductor. Just like a glass fiber, this very thin layer has a very small bending moment in one direction, and so can be spooled (and unspooled) in this direction, allowing you to manage long lengths.

      --
      Reasoning is never, like poetry, judged from the outside at all.
    15. Re:Another limit? by cheater512 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Australia. :)

    16. Re:Another limit? by flux+pinner · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Since flowing current creates a magetic field, you can't use cuprate superconductors to carry large currents. Don't confuse critical fields with critical currents. This paper is talking only about critical fields - it is not trying to describe the amount of current that this material might eventually carry.

      You're right that electric current creates a magnetic field. In a type-II superconductor (like the cuprates and these new FeAs materials), this is managed by introducing defects in the material (grain boundaries, inclusions, etc.) that "pin" the quantitized magnetic flux vortices and prevent them from moving through the material and destroying superconductivity. So it's not fair to say that you CAN'T use cuprates to carry large currents - it's just an engineering problem that has to be dealt with by clever manipulation of the structure of the materials.

      So here's the short version:

      Critical field = intrinsic property of the material.

      Critical current = extrinsic property that depends on critical field, grain structure, presence of second phases, etc.
      --
      Reasoning is never, like poetry, judged from the outside at all.
    17. Re:Another limit? by Bat+Country · · Score: 2, Informative

      From the two links you pasted, apparently most of Brazil, much of Eastern Europe, central Mexico, and the northern center of North America.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
    18. Re:Another limit? by fyngyrz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Northeastern Montana, for one. Right where I live.

      But for more details, go here.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    19. Re:Another limit? by JimboTheMagnifico · · Score: 3, Funny

      So by the transitive property of puns: Ductile is Futile.

    20. Re:Another limit? by John+Meacham · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't need it to not be a threat at all, just less of a threat than a backhoe.

      --
      http://notanumber.net/
    21. Re:Another limit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I worked in a group at Argonne Natl. Lab that formed wire out of the cuprate materials. We had magnetic coils, high current transmission bars, etc. All were ceramic and brittle but usable. The were formed by slowly burning the binder out of green forms that would later sinter into a solid product.

      The issues that restricted further development was critical current density, which would limit the amount of current and the strength of the magnetic field.

    22. Re:Another limit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Northeastern Montana, for one. Right where I live.


      Yeah, until Yellowstone blows.

    23. Re:Another limit? by TheLink · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some parts of India. Some parts of Australia. And it seems quite a lot of places on the map you linked to.

      There's always a chance that seismic activity could break stuff. But that hasn't stopped people from _rebuilding_ stuff in earthquake zones.

      --
  2. Re:Internal Resistance by frith01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These are not "HIGH" temp superconductors yet. They are only working at -400F, so I doubt you could run these in your PSP.

    But having a new class of super conductors opens up further research into new high temp ones.

  3. Interesting... by misterpmosh · · Score: 4, Insightful
    That's truly fascinating if they can tolerate such a large magnetic field. While we may rarely need to tolerate 45 tesla magnetic fields in practice, the physics behind this must be new to our experience. Unexplained experimental results always spark interesting theoretical work, possibly leading to more practical materials.

    Scanning the paper, it seemed to have little bearing on this magnetic field tolerance, but rather talked about the effects of grain boundaries. Did anyone understand how the paper related to the press release?

  4. AC! by tcoder70 · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Ah Crappp!!!" - Magneto, 2008

    1. Re:AC! by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dr. Frank Hunte, I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

      ~Wolverine

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
  5. Summary is flat-out wrong. by caffeinated_bunsen · · Score: 5, Informative

    Read that preprint, or at least look at the pictures -- specifically Fig. 6. It's a measurement of the upper critical field (i.e. the magnetic field that destroys the superconducting state) versus temperature. The 90% line (where the resistivity is 90% of its normal-state value) does indeed go off the graph at low temperatures; it extrapolates to about 60 T for 5 K.

    There's a big difference between "This material has a very high critical field" (which is what the article said) and "This material has no critical field" (which is what the summary said).

    --

    Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
    1. Re:Summary is flat-out wrong. by hardburn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you have a 60T magnet laying around, please get in touch. I have an evil plan that needs hatching.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    2. Re:Summary is flat-out wrong. by mako1138 · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_High_Magnetic_Field_Laboratory

      There's a 60T pulsed magnet at LANL. "Power comes from a pulsed power infrastructure which includes a 1.43 gigawatt motor generator and five 64 megawatt power supplies. The 1200-ton motor generator sits on a 4800-short ton (4350 t) inertia block which rests on 60 springs to minimize earth tremors."

      And they're building a 100T edition.

    3. Re:Summary is flat-out wrong. by gardyloo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When the generators which power those things lie still, their steel shafts warp under their own weight. Even when the generators aren't being spun to create the electricity, they have to spin (albeit more slowly) to make sure they don't bend. Wicked cool stuff.

  6. Re:Internal Resistance by who+knows+my+name · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When will people use standard units? I'm sorry it's a particular gripe of mine; kelvin is the universal scale. The sooner we wipe out imperial units the better (unless anyone else wants to convert to a base 12 system?).

    --
    Nothing to see here.
  7. "Immune to Gravity" coming soon? by seanonymous · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's really neat and all, but please let me know when they find something that's immune to gravity, as it's essential to a project I'm working on. (I have a deadline.)

    1. Re:"Immune to Gravity" coming soon? by CowboyNealOption · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sadly everything on the planet that was immune to gravity drifted away from the earth before people existed.

    2. Re:"Immune to Gravity" coming soon? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's been known for quite a while. It's called vacuum. There's LOTS of it around too.

    3. Re:"Immune to Gravity" coming soon? by 12357bd · · Score: 2, Funny

      Did you ever heard about something involving two cats?

      The only detected problem was the noise...

      --
      What's in a sig?
    4. Re:"Immune to Gravity" coming soon? by BooleanLobster · · Score: 3, Funny
      It might not be as plentiful as you think. I've heard an anecdote that the Guinness Book of World Records lists vacuum as the most expensive substance known to man...

      Most expensive by weight, that is. Additionally, higher quality vacuums are exponentially more expensive!

      --
      In hell, you will find a mountain of broken, feces-covered typewriters and a stack of copies of the First Folio.
  8. Worst. Summary. Ever. by flux+pinner · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ack - looks like caffeinated_bunsen beat me to the punch. But it bears repeating - this paper certainly says nothing like "this superconductor is immune to magnetism". This material has a very high critical magnetic field, and if they figure out how to improve the connectivity then it might even someday be able to carry a current density of engineering significance. But it certainly is not "immune" to magnetism in any qualitatively different way than any other type-II superconductor out there. Still...it's nice to see that high-temperature superconductivity can be observed outside the cuprate family, and this paper (showing that it also has a high critical magnetic field) should spur some serious R&D work outside the theoretical physics community.

    --
    Reasoning is never, like poetry, judged from the outside at all.
  9. reality check by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am a condensed-matter physicist but not a superconductor specialist.

    The article does not say that the material is immune to magnetism.

    The data relevant to this discussion is presented in Fig. 6 in the paper, which is a plot of the upper critical field (the maximum field the material can support and still be superconducting) versus temperature. Look at the traces marked with square markers.

    Notice that these curves do not diverge to infinity as the summary would have you believe.

    Granted, values in the 50's of Tesla seem pretty big, considering that the ambient magnetic field on Earth is about 0.5 Tesla. But note that other superconductors have critical fields in this same range. The famous high-Tc superconductor YBCO has a critical field of 135 Tesla (ref: http://www.springerlink.com/content/j0128jt30843362u/)

    Compared to elemental superconductors, whose critical fields are around 1 Tesla or less, this material does indeed support a lot more magnetic field. But it certainly isn't "immune to magnetism"

    1. Re:reality check by necama · · Score: 5, Informative

      Granted, values in the 50's of Tesla seem pretty big, considering that the ambient magnetic field on Earth is about 0.5 Tesla. I'm just quibbling on units -- the Earth's magnetic field is 0.5 gauss, or, 50 microTesla. Other than that, I agree with your comment 100%.

      --

      Just another condensed matter physicist.
  10. Re:Internal Resistance by argent · · Score: 3, Funny

    Internal resistanceless batteries would make any kind of short circuit very exciting.

    But useful for McGuyver!

  11. 60 T is pretty strong by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I was looking at the magnetic flux density table and found a few interesting tidbits:
    • 1.5 T is what's used in MRIs (people have died when metallic objects fly around in these fields)
    • 16 T will levitate a frog
    • 45 T is the strongest magetic field continuously produced in a laboratory.
    • 10,000 T is instantly lethal to organic life
    Basically we're fine levitating frogs, but probably won't be able to use it as part of an instant-death ray.
    1. Re:60 T is pretty strong by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dang. It's starting to show that I've left science and gone into computers.

      If only they'd expressed it in powers of two (e.g. 2^16).

    2. Re:60 T is pretty strong by xorbe · · Score: 2, Informative

      10^5 is 100,000 T (instantly lethal to organic life)

    3. Re:60 T is pretty strong by MiniMike · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe they estimated that a field of that strength will separate H20 or some other molecule that life finds necessary? Just a random guess.

      Too bad that the strongest field produced is only 2800T (actually strongest continuous is only 45T), since it only takes 16T to levitate a frog then 100kT would probably launch it (or remaining portions) into space...

  12. Bussard Ramjets! by StCredZero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Superconductors that are immune to interference from magnets would get us further towards Bussard Ramjets. There are other hurdles, like the mechanical strength of the magnetic coils themselves. (So the magnetic forces don't wreck them.) Even if we couldn't make practical ramjets, magnetic sails would also benefit, which would make deceleration of interstellar craft almost "free."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

  13. Re:Internal Resistance by who+knows+my+name · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This isn't a matter of opinion, it's an international standard. There is a reason decimalisation took place; we have a base 10 number system. If everyone uses their own defined set of units then people waste time when we try and cooperate.

    --
    Nothing to see here.
  14. Re:Or other liquid... by Fear+the+Clam · · Score: 2, Informative

    I read an article in the last year that talked about using liquid hydrogen to cool super conducting transmission lines and also being used as an infrastructure to distribute hydrogen for use in cars, fuel cells, etc...

    Me too. It was this article in Scientific American.

  15. Re:Internal Resistance by jhantin · · Score: 3, Informative

    Is there something that happens at 0F? Ice and salt at 1 atm will stabilize at 0 degrees Fahrenheit; the zero point was originally defined in terms of ice and ammonium chloride.
    --
    ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
  16. Re:Internal Resistance by Scott+Ransom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am a scientist and so work with Kelvin all the time. However, I think that Fahrenheit is actually a more useful temperature scale for humans than Celsius. Basically, 0F is wicked cold and 100F is wicked hot. It makes sense for how _we_ relate to temperature rather than how water relates to temperature.

  17. Re:Internal Resistance by zap0d · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am a scientist and so work with Kelvin all the time. However, I think that Fahrenheit is actually a more useful temperature scale for humans than Celsius. Basically, 0F is wicked cold and 100F is wicked hot. It makes sense for how _we_ relate to temperature rather than how water relates to temperature. That sounds like a very scientific explanation.
  18. Re: Ramscoops: I think the analysis has a bug. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A somewhat off-topic digression:

    The conventional wisdom on Bussard Ramjets (included in the wikipedia article) is that they reach a terminal velocity due to the drag of collecting the fuel - and asymptotically approach their exhaust velocity. IMHO that's incorrect.

    The bug is that the calculation assumes that they must accelerate the collected hydrogen to the velocity of the craft before fusing it, then depend on the fusion energy to re-accelerate it as exhaust.

    However, as with the collected air in chemical ramjets, the momentum of the collected material does not need to be discarded. It can be fused on the fly through the ramjet, retaining its original momentum along the flight path (relative to the vessel). Thus the energy of fusion can be applied to accelerating the reaction products toward the rear. None is needed to replace the momentum allegedly lost capturing the fuel.

    Now SOME of the axial momentum of the incoming fuel is traded for radial momentum to collect it. But the energy of that "lost" momentum is converted to pressure and temperature, compressing the material like any other gas. There is a drag on the scoop field from this. But when the exhaust expands again after the reaction there is a corresponding thrust against the nozzle field, reconverting the radial expansion of the reaction products to rearward velocity and recovering the "lost" momentum.

    If this whole process were lossless there would be no top end to the kenetic energy the ramscoop could accumulate. With less than 100% efficiency in reapplying the compression energy to the mass (both from lost energy and lost mass) there is some drag from collection that is not recovered. (For instance: Mass lost as neutrinos is a non-trivial fraction.) So there may still be a speed limit. But it can be far higher than that calculated by assuming you "stopped" the gas when you "caught" it.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  19. Bussard Polywell Instead! by clonan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A more important near term result would be a cheap Bussard Polywell fusion system.

    A high temperature superconductor that is resistant to high magnetic fields would allow significant efficiency gains and eventually miniaturization.

    Who knows in 40 years every new home might have it's own fusion reactor in the basement because of this material.

  20. base-10 by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 2, Funny

    When will people use standard units? I'm sorry it's a particular gripe of mine; kelvin is the universal scale. The sooner we wipe out imperial units the better (unless anyone else wants to convert to a base 12 system?).
    No system is fit to be called "Standard" until it's base 2...
     

    ...PUNY HUMANS

  21. Re:Internal Resistance by TheLink · · Score: 3, Informative

    "And I can never remember how to do it"

    Use Google.

    e.g. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=0F+in+C

    It does other unit conversions kph to mph, US gallon to UK gallons, currency conversion.

    And also stuff like how long it takes to transfer 700MB over a 512Kbps link:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=700+MB%2F+512kbps
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=700+MB%2F+512Kbps+in+seconds

    --
  22. Re:Internal Resistance by wildsurf · · Score: 2, Funny

    The sooner we wipe out imperial units the better

    Just don't tell today's kids that the number of cubic feet in a gallon is .1337.

    --
    Weeks of coding saves hours of planning.