Slashdot Mirror
IcedTea's OpenJDK Passes Java Test Compatibility Kit
emyar writes "At JavaOne in May, 2006, Sun Microsystems announced they were going to release Java as free software under the terms of the GPL. The size of the task (6.5 million lines of code) was only eclipsed by the size of the opportunity for Java as a free and open technology. [...] This week the IcedTea Project reached an important milestone — The latest OpenJDK binary included in Fedora 9 (x86 and x86_64) passes the rigorous Java Test Compatibility Kit (TCK). This means that it provides all the required Java APIs and behaves like any other Java SE 6 implementation — in keeping with the portability goal of the Java platform."
How about performance. It is a great milestone, it is, but if it is too slow it isn't ready for prime time.
alias possession='chmod 666 satan && ls
If Mono wants to ever become suitable for enterprise use, it will need a testsuite and compatibility kit like this. One of the main benefits of Java is the stringent standards that implementations must adhere to. This brings a level of predictability that we just can't get from .NET or Mono. And for huge enterprise apps, that predictability is totally necessary.
So, Sun's own codebase passes their own compatibility suite. BFD.
If after more than a decade, there is not a single, independent, compliant Java implementation, then there is evidently something wrong with the Java platform.
Sweet. Maybe was can start getting Java VMs on the Mac less than a decade after they're released now.
Thomas Galvin
That count includes the standard libraries. And it includes the *comments* in the standard libraries, from with the javadocs are generated. All in all, it sounds like a pretty reasonable number.
Why does it seem that every time the hardware guys give us more machine, the software guys use every last bit of it to do exactly what the previous generation of machines did, only the previous generation did faster?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Because each generation of "software guy" becomes n+1 generations removed from being a hardware guy himself. That is to say, the tools become "better" to make programming "easier" for people who aren't also electrical engineers.
At least, if I had to guess, that's what I'd say.
I'm not sure how much more performance you could achieve simply by culling the unused stuff. Java already dynamically loads only the classes you use into memory. We have gotten to a point where people don't want to rewrite their own XML parsers, sorting algorithms, cryptography libraries, UI components, network connection handling functions, and all the other wonderful stuff provided by the .net and Java APIs. We're probably a lot better off because of it. Less time wasted writing code that someone has already written a million times. If you still want a smaller version of the JDK, there's always the Java Micro Edition Platform.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Aren't you talking about a social problem, not a language problem?
Use the class libraries you like, build your own replacements for the ones you don't in Java itself or in C, and then (and here's the tricky part) convince the people you work with to only use your stuff.
Rewriting all of the class libraries to be more syntax consistent and intuitive would be fantastic - but you break so much backwards compatibility you might as well give up and adopt Groovy or Scala.
And as examples of bloat, you had to pick Swing, NIO and logging?!?
:-(
Logging is a quasi-identical to Apache's log4j, indeed this caused bad feelings among log4j's authors who felt Sun should just have officialized their API. Of course the reason Sun used it as an (ahem) inspiration is that it's very good, as demonstrated by the absolutely huge number of projects using it. And you know as well as I do that rolling out your own is a common developer trait, *especially* for trivial things like that.
NIO is brilliant. If it's too complex or low-level for you, just use the "old IO", which is *also* good - just not as low-level.
Swing, I can understand your feeling. Although the real problem with Swing is not "bloat" as in unnecessary complex and featurefull, it's that even though it only shipped in a JDK with 1.2 (which had the Collection framework), Sun bowed to short-sighted morons who kicked a fuss when it was suggested that it be put in java.swing (instead of javax.swing), and as a result still uses the old Vector and so on.
Generally speaking, what you call "bloat" is due to:
- the presence of libraries *you* don't use. Guess what, other people do.
- the provision for extensions. For instance, the java.net package is chock full of factories, abstract classes and interfaces that you seem to disdain. And indeed to 98% of developers who just use it for the net, that's all pretty pointless. The upshot is that should you require Unix or X25 sockets, you can still use the same API - I've seen it done. Sure you have to write the C code, but the Java code is all the same except the bit that gets the address. How many open-source language don't even have a common low-level DB API, forcing you to write you own single use abstraction layer when you need to target several DBs? At least with Java you know it's JDBC. Always.
Sun's attitude towards libraries has always been, as far as Java is concerned at least, make the simple easy, make the difficult possible. To me that's good design. Of course it means that easy can be more complex than with more specific APIs. But those tend to not allow the difficult at all
RMS has been talking that way for years. There's essentially no chance of him changing his ways at this point. This is especially true considering the fact that RMS' zealotry has netted him an impressive string of wins including a GPLed version of Java.
The fact of the matter is that the Free Software community has become a rather influential player in the software world. Sun GPLed Java because the executives at Sun finally realized that despite the huge push for Java from the "Enterprise" crowd, the real reason that Java was a competitive platform was because of the large quantity of Free Software that had grown up around Java. Sun needed Free Software hackers, but for the most part Free Software hackers weren't interested in working with Java.
In this particular case, preaching to the choir was precisely what was needed.
Oh come on. Java is definitely quite verbose, but no one would ever write that code like that.
This code example wouldn't even compile, these classes don't exist in any version of xalan.xslt that I can find, and it's not even using import statements.
import org.apache.xalan.xslt.*;String xmlSystemId = new File(xmlFileName).toURL().toExternalForm( );
String xsltSystemId = new File(xsltFileName).toURL().toExternalForm( );
XSLTProcessor processor = new XSLTProcessorFactory().getProcessor( );
XSLTInputSource xmlInputSource = new XSLTInputSource(xmlSystemId);
XSLTInputSource xsltInputSource = new XSLTInputSource(xsltSystemId);
XSLTResultTarget resultTree = new XSLTResultTarget(System.out);
processor.process(xmlInputSource, xsltInputSource, resultTree);
And claiming that you ought to be able to do the following:
XMLTransformer.transform(xmlfile, xsltFile, outputStream)Okay, so with your version:
And surely a million other things. You must realize that in this day and age people are using XML and XSLT for myriad different uses, and a proper toolkit should be able to handle as many of them as possible.
That's the best and the worst part about almost every Java library that people love to complain about. Swing gets much of this, but when you want a platform-agnostic way to put that essential UI component in the lower right-hand rectangle made by the scrollbars on your JScrollPane, Swing is the only way you're going to get there (or maybe SWT, I've never used it, but I hear similar complaints and praise).
Java is the only platform-independent language that has this kind of power in the core library. Furthermore, this announcement means we've now got an true open-source environment that is already making inroads in the business programming world, in areas that have been previously dominated by C/C++ and (shudder) VB. This is a good thing.
-philhave you been seen on slash?
There's no contradiction, although I admit that I could have been more clear. Java was Free enough that a substantial amount of Free Software was created for it. However, the majority of Free Software hackers steered clear, and that has hurt Java quite a bit (for essentially no benefit to Sun).
For example, even Sun-supported Gnome contains more Mono-based C# in it than Java. Free Software hackers generally used (and built) competing web technologies instead of using Java-based tools. You can get web hosting that includes toolkits based on PHP, Perl, or Python from any number of sources, and for ridiculously reasonable prices. You can then use these accounts to host sophisticated Free Software applications. Java should have done much better in this space, but Sun's licensing precluded that.
Free Software hackers used (and built) competing tools for creating desktop applications as well. Heck, one of the most popular Java-based desktop applications is Eclipse, and because it is based on SWT it isn't even pure Java.
When you think of the time and effort that went into the various Java replacement toolsets like gcj, Harmony, GNU classpath, etc. it is pretty clear that Sun wasted a great deal of Free Software effort that could have gone towards making Java that much cooler. It will be interesting to see what happens to Java now that a 100% Free Software version is finally available.
Java would almost certainly be a cooler platform today if Debian (to give an example) would have included it in main years ago, or if the source would have been available for a decent, up-to-date port to the BSDs and other niche platforms. Java was an inferior choice for even the less zealous of the Free Software community simply because you couldn't count on it being available. gcc, as an alternative, is available everywhere. Heck, Python is available everywhere. Java's write once run everywhere promise has been broken for years for people that are interested in platforms outside of Sun's narrow scope.
If it weren't for the Free Software that grew up around Java it would not be a viable platform today, plain and simple, but that doesn't mean that Sun has done a particularly good job encouraging Free Software hackers to use Java. A lot of opportunities have almost certainly been missed.
Thanks for encouraging me to spend some time making my point more clear. I appreciate it.
Don't you think he has more knowledge than you because he has been working the last 10 years and learned new things? After all, you don't learn everything in a university.
"Die endgueltige Teilung Deutschlands - das ist unser Auftrag." - Chlodwig Poth
Maybe it has more to do with the skill of the developers than anything else.
Badass Resumes
If you can design the logic circuits, you should be able to code. Had "computer science" even been developed as an independent discipline when they were building the Apollo guidance systems? I don't know the answer to that.
.com mode.
I agree with the rest of the statement though. I think that the real problem is that too many departments are teaching using Java and the like, which are "industry standards" because too many students are looking at computer science as a gateway to a career coding JBoss apps for a bank, or working in IT -- basically a 4 year trade school.
Computer Science has about as much to do with IT as mechanical engineering has to do with working in a lube shop. Sure, you could do it -- but you should have been taught to do a whole hell of a lot more. If all you want to do, or can do, is the trade aspect then I'm not sure that an extended education in what is essentially applied mathematics is really the route to go, and those who want that advanced theoretical knowledge shouldn't have to have their class time watered down by the kid who is still in
Then again, what the hell do it know. *goes back to working in Quark*
Had sun GPL'd java YEARS ago, .NET would be nowhere today. Too bad for them, at this point it is far far too late and .NET has essentially taken over the rein of next-generation development.
I don't remember saying anything about faster. I said its more feature-full, which is true. I can run emulators for systems like the Playstation. My games are prettier and have more features. My word processor checks my spelling and grammar as I type. My IDE checks for syntax errors, displays possible methods to use, compiles documentation, checks my coding for various coding standards. I'm streaming, transcoding, and playing video. I'm doing video chat. You have web apps giving you a more user-friendly experience, like gmail. Granted, a lot of these things were possible or even implemented in '98, but were they widespread, stable, useful, and feature-full? I'm sure you could make an argument that you're doing the exact same things on your computer today that you were doing 10 years ago, but only if you generalize it to a degree that it becomes meaningless ("coding", "writing a document", etc).
.Net remoting framework often generates overly-verbose network traffic compared to something that you wrote using plain sockets. But at the same time, in addition to being quicker, you also get strong typing, and the libraries take care of making sure the data you pass between layers is appropriate.
Your comment about having more memory is wrong. My programs didn't crash because I didn't have enough memory. They crashed because they were shoddily written and didn't do a lot of stuff that modern languages and programmers do as a matter of course. I mean, C++ programmers make heavy use of RAII and smart pointers these days. They slow down the program but they prevent memory leaks. C# and Java have garbage collection to do the same things. Most modern languages have containers that do bounds-checking automatically. Thats slower than if you just threw the input at it. More validation, etc.
And yeah, my OS is better these days. Thats an improvement in the OS. And some of those improvements take *drumroll* more processing power, because bugs need to be coded around, and more checks and validations need to be performed.
To be sure there are some things that are designed to save developer time given programming time. The
Its just irritating to have people repeatedly say that developers are lazy and writing inefficient code. These days I worry more about the code I'm writing than I was in the past. And most developers I know are the same. You may be able to get your super-awesome "bloat" free programs, but they'll probably take twice as long to develop with less features, be full of bugs, crash all the time, and leak like a sieve. The 90's was not the golden age of computer software that a lot of people make it out to be.
There really isn't that much bloat in Java. The reason the source is so huge is because of all library's. They have much more than a standard C distribution and cover every thing from OS calls to network sockets, thread management, encryption, HTML tools, the list still goes on. Being able to compile a Java class file that can be run natively by the kernel your class size would be quite small compared to the class file + run time files.
A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
Put down the crack pipe. Java still has at least 3-4x as much penetration as .NET in the enterprise alone, and in community open source .NET barely makes an appearance at all. Microsoft's marketing should not be confused for fact.
Sam ty sig.
Memory is about $20-$40/GB. Disk space is down to about $0.30-$0.50/GB. CPU is about $0.01 per bogomip (hey, there isn't really a good measurement out there, so what the hell).
Yeah, let's teach a fantasy.
In case you didn't notice because you can't read, we (both the OP and me) were talking about the libraries, not the language itself. If I trust what you say, Java's libraries (the default ones) can't do anything "remotely" (this is the word) useful unless you install tons of add-ons, so basically they could as well have been thrown away a long time ago. So Java is bloated but does nothing by default excepted print "Hello World" (yes this is trollish). Java has always been overhyped by companies like Sun (but not only them).
Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !