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Bell Canada Ordered To Justify Traffic-Shaping Practices

somecanuckchick writes "The Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) has ordered Bell Canada to justify its traffic-shaping practices. The Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission on Thursday told the company it has until June 23 to make public data that was marked confidential in a May 29 filing. Bell had said it needed to keep quiet the information, which details the level of internet traffic and possible congestion on its network, for competitive reasons."

21 of 140 comments (clear)

  1. Bell Canada is not the only one. by He+Who+Waits · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Will Rogers be next? Cogeco?

    1. Re:Bell Canada is not the only one. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Will Rogers be next? Cogeco?

      Probably not, Bell Canada took the particularly egregious step of throttling not only their own customers, but everyone else's customers as well. It's one thing to ask people who have signed contracts with you to grab their ankles, but going after other companies' customers to make sure that your competitors' service sucks as bad as yours does... well, I suppose I could just say that this is the future of capitalism, as much as the free marketeers insist it won't be.

      I'm sure that one of them will post saying how it's the government's fault for "letting this happen" and that if there weren't any rules or anything to even bother to pretend to look like someone is in charge, this wouldn't have happened because Bell Canada only did this to "stick it to the man" and not for any personal gain.

    2. Re:Bell Canada is not the only one. by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      First, it's nice that it's easy to opt out, and also, it's a nice way to warn you that you are approaching your limit. With any other method, you could argue that you had no way of knowing that you were approaching the limit. With this method, it's pretty hard to argue that you weren't aware. Although I guess if you only use your internet for FTP traffic, or for connecting to your work VPN, and browse from there, then there's no way you would have known. However, for 99% of people using their service, it's probably the best way to warn them. Most people don't give their ISP their real email address, and don't use the one provided to them by their ISP. A phone call from rogers is usually them trying to sell you something, so I don't answer calls from them, and when I do pick up by accident, I hang up as soon as I hear rogers (or if it takes them more than a second or two to respond to "hello").

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Bell Canada is not the only one. by p0tat03 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I wrote a letter to my MP a while back, telling him that his party's technology policies have been sorely disappointing, and that unless they shape up, they cannot expect my vote in the future. I got a nice reply back from my MP, being quite ambivalent (it's ok, he used to be the Minister of Fisheries, I don't expect him to be totally on the up and up about tech).

      The surprising thing is, I got a nice letter from Jim Prentice on Friday, apparently my letter was forwarded to him. In it he extolled the virtues of competition, and his confidence that the free market will give Canadian consumers high-quality services at competitive prices.

      Apparently Mr. Prentice hasn't paid a phone or internet bill for quite some time, or he'd know about the sad state of affairs the free market has brought us.

    4. Re:Bell Canada is not the only one. by gmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      Jim Prentice is clueless about how free markets operate and really need dump him from cabinet.

      His response to the bill C-61 was pretty much word for word the same. "The free markets will decide if DRM gets used or not"

  2. "Competetive Reasons" eh? by Nursie · · Score: 4, Insightful


    I'm guessing that means "if our customers find out the crap we're pulling then they'll go to the competition".

    Either that or that competitors will realise exactly how much it's possible to dupe their customers into acxcepting as "just the way it is" before anyone gets upset.

    1. Re:"Competetive Reasons" eh? by Cathoderoytube · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering one of their supposed traffic shaping methods is deep packet inspection, the 'competitive reason' would be they'd be sued till their arms and legs were bloody stumps and they were just rolling around on the street while angry former customers beat them with shovels. Thus allowing the likes of Rogers to get the upper hand.

      -Also on an unrelated note, I just received my internet bill, and I got hit with an extra $25 for 'bandwidth usage'. Thanks Bell

      --
      I have nothing compelling to say
    2. Re:"Competetive Reasons" eh? by nightfire-unique · · Score: 4, Informative

      Switch to teksavvy.com. I did so after Bell started crippling bittorrent (about 3 months ago). While they have also started tampering with teksavvy's users' traffic (surely illegal; we'll see), at least the spare change at teksavvy is going to something useful: they're leading a charge for Net Neutrality, and supporting them is my way of fighting back.

      Aside from that, their customer service, performance, competence and business processes are second to none.

      Bell management, if you're reading this: go to hell. Seriously. I was your dedicated customer for seven years, and this outrage has prompted me to terminate my business relationship with you (phone, cell, and Internet). It will be a very long time before you profit from me again.

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
  3. Competitive reasons? by Oxy+the+moron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is the implication here that, if they disclose how they are shaping their traffic, competitors will somehow seize that information and offer better service as a result? I don't think Bell Canada's customers are just chomping at the bit to get more traffic shaping on their lines, and I don't think they'd be any happier about it with a competitor, even if the prices were lower.

    About the only logical application I can see of "competitive reasons" would be, "Oh no! Now our customers know we actually *were* screwing them hard, and now they're leaving for our competitors in droves!"

    --

    Proudly supporting the Libertarian Party.

  4. Bandwidth versus latency... by dada21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Almost everyone I know that isn't a geek cares about one thing when it comes to the Internet: speed. But the non-geeks don't understand that speed is not about how fast things download always, but sometimes about how fast things appear. It's the bandwidth versus latency issue.

    I've come to discover in my 21 years of being "online" that even with geeks, low latency is more important than high speed most of the time. I ran a large multinode BBS, and the most important reason for having a faster modem was not to download files quicker. It was so that the site would appear quicker: the message forums, the BBS doors (online games), the chat area, etc.

    Today, when I see people complain about the speed of their Internet, it's always a latency issue. Maybe some spyware swapped DNS servers, maybe they're using an antiquated dial-up; whatever the case, latency is more important to the vast majority of users than bandwidth. This is why traffic shaping is so important, and also why keeping it private is also important. The moment that the few geeks who demand maximum bandwidth find a way around traffic shaping, those who demand low latency will suffer. For the huge majority of Internet users, if their downloads are 200kbps or 2000kbps, they don't care. While they're downloading, they're surfing, and they want that web site to pop up on the screen instantly or quicker.

    We have to look at the real problem here: the lack of competition. Even if there are two or three competitors in a market, there is still room for more. When you realize that the lack fo competition is due to the stifling of local, state and Federal government regulations, you'll find the true culprit for what ails you: too many regulations preventing competition from bringing to the market what you want at a price you're willing to pay. Get rid of government strangeholds and the Internet will blossom further. This article tells me things will get worse as those who promise to protect you will only find new ways to collect their paychecks in the form of political contributions.

    1. Re:Bandwidth versus latency... by CogDissident · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem comes when people advertise that they offer 200k/sec internet, and provide 20k/sec connections. Or do things like say:
      "hey, if you want to download from bit torrent at more than 2k/sec, pay us more money."
      or
      "We want you to use our search engine, not google, so we're going to make your ping to google's site 100 times longer than normal. See how slow google is? Must be their fault. Use our fast service.

    2. Re:Bandwidth versus latency... by ratboy666 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wha, wha, wha, WHAT?

      1 - "Geeks" do work around "latency" issues -- I have been doing so since the dialup era. I run my own DNS server for this reason, and use nscd on local machines. I use SquidProxy.

      2 - I don't work around traffic shaping. But a packet is just a packet. What the fuck does the ISP think it is doing when (re)prioritizing my packets? I guess I simply don't deserve ANY priority, right?

      3 - You didn't address your argument for keeping shaping private. Explain WHY it should be private. I will gladly add quality of service requests to my packets -- IF THE SHAPING POLICY IS NOT PRIVATE.

      4 - "A few geeks demanding maximum bandwidth". Sure, why not? What does Bell DSL advertise?

      Let me give you a hint:

      http://www.bellvideostore.ca/help/

      This is Bells "download video" service.

      "Technical Specifications:
      720x480 maximum resolution, 30 fps, 1,500-2,200 kbps average bit rate. These videos will play on all 4th and higher generation Archos portable media players. THESE VIDEOS WILL NOT PLAY ON MOST PORTABLE VIDEO PLAYERS AND ARE NOT IPOD COMPATIBLE."

      http://www.bell.ca/support/PrsCSrvGnl_mover_offers.page?region=ON&language=en&EXT=PDL2_SA_MOVE_2008Q2_AR_EN_ON_Google_bell%20dsl&s_kwcid=bell%20dsl|1920763120

      "If you're moving, now's the perfect time to move up and into a Bell Better HomeTM: ...
              * The most powerful Internet"

      Of course Bell (the ISP) offers a music store in addition to the video store:

      http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/help_en/index.html

      Conflict of interest? No, they really need to shape traffic to keep up with that audio and video goodness.

      Let's see how Bell advertises the service for new buyers (note the lack of fine print):

      http://www.bell.ca/shopping/PrsShpInt_NewAccess.page?userType=NEW

      "Total Internet Performance
      Download high quality music files, stream video,or play games.

      Best price
      in a bundle$42.95/mo.
      Bonus: Get 2 months free

      Regular price: $47.95/mo. *"

      (editors comment - the * footnote is NOT on this page, I have no idea what it means)

      And my personal favorite:

      http://youtube.com/watch?v=ArpmbnxIQIQ

      This ad aired until fairly recently.

      So this ISP does bandwidth shaping -- why? Aren't they selling Total Internet Performance, the Bell Better Home (tm), Audio downloads and Video (even streaming) at near HD quality?

      A FEW GEEKS DEMANDING MAXIMUM BANDWIDTH??? Hell, I would like to see the beavers deliver a fraction of the promises. And let's not get into "never shared, never slow" crap they advertised.

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
  5. No doubt... by Bullfish · · Score: 4, Informative

    it is competitive pressure they fear, as they are shaping traffic while they have opened an on-line video store to help provide the bandwidth. The fact that Bell has increased the services they offer while trying not to spend money expanding their server to server infrastructure would probably give competitors a leg up in knowing how close they really are to capacity. Knowing that, they could use it as an edge. That said, selling high speed as high speed to customers while throttling their speed and hoping they don't notice is still bait and switch.

    1. Re:No doubt... by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are exactly right, and I've written about this problem in North America before. We, as consumers, have reason to believe that truth in advertising is how things are supposed to be. If the cable/telco companies had to include the warnings that drug manufacturers do, the fine print on a broadband contract would grow by several pages. Then we'd invoke clear/simple advertising laws.

      The only reason that they can claim competitive reasons for not revealing information is because they are at capacity. They are selling consumers contracts that they can't possibly provide service on.

      To my knowledge, not one ISP has physically demonstrated the need for shaping, nor shown in actual use how it works for them. File sharers do not use all the bandwidth they purchased and even if they did, they paid for it.

      I don't know how many more court cases it will take, but someone needs to hold their feet to the fire about what they sell, and what they provide, and the dichotomy that creates. Bait and switch laws, lemon laws, and the ideology behind them should apply here. Either you are selling 3Mbit/s or you are selling a Maximum of 3Mbit/s with the following 4 pages of restrictions on protocols, application usage, time of day/week restrictions, and outright bans on some protocols/applications.

      The courts need to clear that up.

  6. That's not competition.... by mr_nazgul · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That's hiding the made up bull that they pull. They would rather do this and save their investments in more infrastructure but still get more users and lines leased.

    Sigh.

    Bell knows that if people see what it is doing, with no valid reasons, that they will go to the competition. I used to be with Bell with internet, but went to another ISP after their "unlimited" placed a cap on my download limit.

    Unfortunately, all the ISP now in my area have caps now, but at least you can choose what you need from mine. I can pay for fast speed with a low cap, or a high cap based on my needs. Bell never gave that choice. It was "Next month, you are going the have a limit, and we will charge you for every gig you go over. Plus you will be penalized if you cancel any contracts."

    When they told me they would charge me for a canceling my Internet contract, I told them if they try, I would cancel my phone as well. They waived the fee.

    Vote with your wallet! Truer words were never spoken or typed.

    Now if I can just get cheaper and better phone provider....

    --
    Good.. Bad.. I'm the guy with the gun.
    1. Re:That's not competition.... by deraj123 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bullshit. They've been granted the right to use public property to lay their infrastructure. Do any of these companies actually own all of the land that their lines are buried in? Therefore, the people have every right to place restrictions on how they can provide service.

  7. Translation by IceDiver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bell doesn't want anyone to know just how much money they've been siphoning off that should have been spent on infrastructure upgrades to avoid the current congestion in the first place.

  8. I`ve said it before. by Some1too · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think bell really shot themselves in the foot with their argument that their lines are overwhelmed by traffic from torrents or 'heavy users'. This has really turned up the passion with the general public at large. Michael Geist www.michaelgeist.ca has an extremly infomative series of articles titled "a week in the life of the new canadian dmca" where he uses an every day normal family to explain what would and would no longer be acceptable if this law passes.

    His facebook privacy group has swelled to over 65 000 individuals since it's creation. This included with the efforts of other canadian organizations (www.copyrightforcanadians.ca) has really brought this issue to the forefront of canadian politics. Net neutrality wasn`t even a whisper a few months ago, now it`s being talked about around the water cooler at work. So let me be one of the first to say it: Thank you Bell Canada. Thank you for being that large corporation which believes it has a right to do whatever it wants to it`s customers. You`ve helped out net neutrality in Canada more than you could of imagined.

    I can`t wait to see just how clogged their resources are. I hope someone is able to cut through the legalese to give us a nice idea of how their equipment and service is really running.

  9. Laughable. by DarthVain · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The excuse to not release it for "competitive" reasons is laughable.

    A) The ONLY competition that exists is the OTHER mega telecommunications conglomerate Rogers Communictions/Shaw/Cogeco/Etc... Who also use the exact same practices.

    B) ALL the other independent ISPs it was pointed out sometime ago, use either Bell's or Rogers's lines, and thus are traffic shaping also if they know it or not.

    C) The only reason they don't want to release is this isn't mainstream news yet. Your average Joe doesn't know what the heck traffic shaping is. However when journalists start looking it up to report on it, thats a lot more negative press, and frankly people are getting pretty sick and tired of the communication duopoly. They might also remind people about reports of bandwidth capping, or that how they hardly ever really provide the speed that they advertise. They lie, cheat, steal, annoy, mismanage, and impose fictional means and limited options to ensure profit. Heck you ever wonder why Bell Canada doesn't offer Dry DSL? Gee could it be because they are a PHONE company, and you don't need a active phone line to use it. Its all about selling packages, and convergence. I think it is time Canada took a SERIOUS look at our telecommunications situation, and what is being done around the world. If we want to be competitive into the future, leaving it in the hands of these asshats probably isn't a very good idea.

  10. Law should be to disclose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So let's end this confidentiality and pass legislation to force all Canadian isp's to provide the full set of specs. It seems to me that just like buying other equipment or services. The specifications should be displayed and cannot be misrepresented. Just like buying a TV or other elctronic device I want to see the specs so I may make an informed choice. There is no myterious technology here. It is just like any other consumer device.

    I want Full Disclosure. I want to see exactly what my purchase is capable of and what I will recieve right on the label, so to speak. I want it just like any other product legislation in Canada. Why are only the internet providers allowed to pull this type of scam? Car company's are not allowed to misrepresent the engine displacement, nor can stereo amplifier companies misrepresent peak or continuous power output or even try to confuse the consumer. They must state what they are selling truthfully and according to standard measurement methods. If they tried to pull this type of scam, they would be paying huge fines.

    The consumers should at least have the information available and choose to read it or not. Just like other product labelling in this country. If people don't want to think or let their friend pick for them, then fine, But get it out there for all to see.

  11. Re:excuse me? by Locklin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The "Free Market" argument doesn't apply here. Bell has been subsidized by the government for the better part of a century, and given guaranteed monopolies in various areas (not to mention the fact that their lines are on public land). Bell does not operate in a free market, and never has.

    On top of that, the "Free Market" doesn't work when the consumer is lied to and deliberately misled (there is nothing about traffic shaping in Bell's TOS, or in their contracts with the resellers).

    --
    "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom