Slashdot Mirror
FCC Dealt Setback In BPL Push
SonicSpike writes in with word that an appeals court has dealt a setback to the FCC's plans to encourage broadband over power lines. The court ruled that the FCC erred when it withheld parts of the studies it had used in arriving at its position on BPL. The court did not rule that the FCC's decision was incorrect or that it should be revisited. According to the article, about 5,000 people nationwide subscribe to BPL in 35 pilot projects. We've been discussing BPL for years. "...a federal appeals court has sided in part with amateur radio operators who challenged rules designed to speed the nascent Internet service's rollout. When setting rules for BPL operators nearly two years ago, the Federal Communications Commission said it was trying to encourage deployment of a 'third pipe' to compete with cable and DSL services, while establishing limits aimed at protecting public safety, maritime, radio-astronomy, aeronautical navigation, and amateur radio operators from harmful interference. The American Radio Relay League, which represents amateur... radio operators, however, promptly sued the agency, contending that the FCC's approach was insufficient to ward off interference with its radios and inconsistent with its previous rules. On Friday, the U.S. Appeals Court for the District of Columbia on Friday issued a ruling (PDF) that took issue with the way the FCC arrived at its rules."
No where in the US Constitution is the federal government allowed to regulate communications. If the federal government wants to regulate communications they should've proposed an amendment to the States
And yes I am ham radio operator and the OP.
Libertas in infinitum
My father in law lives in west bumfuck, farmland. They tried for years to get BPL working there. But the sad fact of reality is that powerlines just arent up to the task. His community sunk massive funds into that project and they only ever managed to serve like 10 customers. And it was slow. And they all left for some type of LoS wi-fi. (I know not the underlying tech that went in, but its several towers at the tops of hills, and he himself had to install a 4 story tower in his yard.) They have all been very pleased with their wi-fi. And it was much cheaper than the powerline nonsense.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
BPL's interference can have detrimental effects well beyond the ham bands. They can take out local emergency comms if BPL interferance is high enough. For a visual example of whats going on here, check out this video. It shows plainly the kind of interference BPL can cause.
old enough that the link to the court ruling returns 404 not found
correct link
BPL is just one of a thousand different devices that pollute the HF and VHF spectrum. Computers, laptops, touchlamps, plasma TV's (are the worst). Just about any device that uses high speed digital circuitry or switch mode power supplies. In computers, spread spectrum clocks are used to get pass FCC emission requirements, but if you live in a dense neighborhood where people leave their computers on 24/7, that doesn't help much.
Perhaps if they would get off their ass and do something about the non-competition in the market they wouldn't be having to go out of their way to find poor solutions.
Competition between classes isn't competition.
Good video, thanks. Why aren't they using frequency hopping to mitigate interference?
Also, why does BPL need to interfere on this frequency band? Isn't this tunable?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The court did mandate that the FCC conduct a new comment period, with the entire content of the studies they relied on entered into the record, and that they either explain their total rejection of one interference measurement parameter that they solicited comments on, or ellse adopt a different one and explain that. ...de K5ZC
Disinfect the GNU General Public Virus!
You can't scrap the laws of physics. And amateur radio operators were the first hackers. Wait until you're in a flood, a hurricane, or another natural disaster.
Or the next time you try to watch TV, listen to a radio, you'll use technology that hams invented, tested, retested, and helped put towards commercial use for your convenience.
Hams are hackers..... and were, far before your great grandfather was born.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Don't raise the ire of a fellow close-knit group of geographically disparate nerds. Internecine geek warfare is bad for all of us.
This was a good decision by the US Appeals Court. I'm an amateur radio operator myself (there's over 700,000 of us in the United States alone), and it wouldn't make any sense to severely degrade our performance for the benefit of only 5,000 people. Remember, amateur radio isn't merely a hobby: it's been proven useful time and time again in severe emergencies when the communications infrastructure goes down and no one else can get a signal through.
And even if you make the argument that the number of BPL customers will go above 700,000 at some point in the future, it's still not worth it. There's only one radio spectrum, but there's a large variety of ways to get data into households, the rest of which do not pollute the radio spectrum. There's simply no excuse for trying to send data along entirely unshielded power lines. They weren't designed for this purpose and they leak RF like mad. You want to get people access to broadband? Send the data through shielded cables — oh wait, that's what we already do for millions of people!
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Perhaps we should scrap those antiquated rules...
Are you even aware of the multitude of amateur radio digital modes that are in use these days? Saying ham radio is "twentieth century" makes as much sense as saying that automobiles are "twentieth century" — both have evolved considerably over time.after all, we don't provide hitching posts and water troughs outside public buildings anymore, do we?
Just be thankful for us ham radio operators. Someday your ass might be saved in an emergency by a ham who is capable of getting a signal through when the communications infrastructure goes down. The Internet is a great thing, I'll grant you, but when power goes out across an entire region (like it did with the Northeast blackouts a few years ago), you're not going to get any net connectivity and you're not going to get any cell connectivity either. The only people who will be able to relay vital emergency messages will be ham radio operators working off of battery backups or generators.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
The point is that the FCC withheld evidence that contradicted their decision, something the ARRL caught them on. Judge Rogers said,
"It would appear to be a fairly obvious propositioon that studies upon which an agency relies in promulgating a rule must be made available during the rulemaking in order to afford interested persons meaningful notice and an opportunity for comment."
Another judge, David Tatel, wrote,
"In this very case the Commission redacted individual lines from certain pages on which it otherwise relied...there is little doubt that the Commission deliberately attempted to exclude from the record evidence adverse to its position."
Amateur radio may not enjoy the popularity it once did, but it still works when your precious ethernet is buried in mud and the cell phones are down (e.g. Katrina) and is an essential cog in rescue operations when your average laptop is utterly useless. And BPL, by the way, is deader than amateur radio. Dallas just threw in the towel. There isn't much left.
KZ7B
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
73 mother fucker.
Spun the dial on a shortwave radio lately?
The vast bulk of traffic that takes place on it is commercial and military, not ham.
It's just that hams, having the technical savvy, were the first to raise a stink about it.
This is actually a good thing. The FCC was trying to push a technology that does not work well, interferes with others, and costs much more than some other ways of getting connectivity. Even if the Amateur bands can be notched out, the other frequencies suffer. There are a lot of other communications in the range of frequencies that BPL wipes out. The FCC needs to rethink their stance and pay attention to the laws of physics. If BPL is allowed to exist I believe there will be a time in the future we will regret the down side of this technology. In the places it is being used now there are a number of interference problems that keep different services either off the air, or make the use of that spectrum damn near impossible. There is also another side to the story. Licensed equipment transmitting in close proximity to a BPL system can shut down the BPL connection. The bottom line is BPL should never have been adopted. There are better, more effective and less costly ways of getting connectivity without polluting the HF spectrum.
CQ CQ CQ, N3XMQ anyone out there? How copy?
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Yes, but with BPL causing interference all the time, there is no incentive to purchase, use, maintain, practice with, etc. amateur radio equipment. Ham radio is a hobby, if it can't be practiced for fun it won't be practiced at all.
You're setting up a straw man - that is NOT what the OP said.
Federal regulation is, quite simply, unconstitutional. It is not a power granted by the Constitution.
State regulation of spectrum would be workable, and as proof I point to Europe where countries are the comparable in size to US States.
And yes, I too am a ham (extra class).
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
IANAEE, so please if any of you are, I hope you can enlighten me here.
I'm just guessing, but BPL would require some sort of low-power modulation on the circuit, right ? Wouldn't that potentially cause added strain on electrical components ? I'm basing this on the vicious damage caused by DC ripples to computer equipment... my limited electrical knowledge tells me the broadband signal would appear as voltage noise to anything plugged on the same circuit, which means more wasted current, thus more heat. Given the dozens of cheap Chinese power bricks that come with every gadget these days, I fear a lot of them would pop prematurely.
Am I completely out in left field here, or what ?
-Billco, Fnarg.com
For the most part, the ham bands are *not* covered by the average shortwave radio. Little wonder you don't see much traffic on it.
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
Dude, here is the first sentence from the summary: "SonicSpike writes in with word that an appeals court has dealt a setback to the FCC's plans to encourage broadband over power lines."
I guess there could be a (BPL) in there to make it somewhat clearer, but I get the feeling if someone walked up to you and said "Hey, did you see the game?", you would say "nope" but be thinking "Hey fuck you, I don't like football" even though it was baseball season.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
When all else fails...have a Field Day!
The gloves are coming off this weekend as I challenge everyone (especially the naysayers) to a contest 4 days from now in the following venue:
Time: June 28-29
Location: Anywhere, USA (International parties also invited)
I challenge all you naysayers of Amateur Radio to take a serious look this weekend at what a modern-day 21st Century, efficient, coordinated communications network that is free of limits imposed by wires or distance, or even power lines...
and when you meet your local HAMS out in the field everywhere this weekend having a total Field Day with their hobby, remember this:
When the next disaster, hurricane, emergency or blackout occurs with catastrophic communications failure...P2P networks beyond wires will born within minutes under isolated, minimal power (batteries, solar, etc)...which exist to serve the public and save lives far more effectively than an energy-hungry internet of webs ever could...
When all else fails, Amateur Radio works!
73
___
CAPTCHA of the comment: COMMUNE
If you had *any* "linear" amplifier (RF transmitter power booster amp) connected to your CB radio, you were illegal. Back in the 70's, the FCC allotted you an absolute max of 5 watts of input power to the final RF amp in your CB transceiver. The transceiver had to be type-accepted by the FCC also, to be legal to be sold and used in the USA.
I didn't mean to criticize the submitter of this story in particular, just used it for a launchpad to my rant on obscure acronym dropping.
The answer is never. The power limit was, and still is, 4 watts of carrier power for amplitude or 12 watts PEP for single side band. See the rules and regulations and note rules 9 and 10.
The other problem, even if the power limits are followed, is that some idiots have the idea that any amount of over modulation helps them be heard better so they get a "power boost" amplified microphone. They need to listen to their own transmitter from someone else's receiver. Oh, and those echo gadgets are another impediment to understanding what they are trying to say, if, indeed, it's anything worth listening to in the beginning. I only use a CB on the road when I'm on a long trip. It has definitely saved me time and aggravation, but it sure would be nice if it was cleaned up, both in signal quality and operator quality.
Beyond that, I agree with what you say. Reasonable rules and reasonable and effective enforcement are necessary to avoid chaos and unusability.
BPL is a horrible idea. At anything much above quite low frequencies, power lines are huge antennas.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
I think the Commerce Clause doesn't have to stretch very far to cover radio communication that can go worldwide; that is, radio communication clearly influences interstate commerce, so I think the Constitution grants Congress the power to make law about it fair and square.
I think you're wrong on the facts as well as the law. The only reason to let each state make its own regulations (assuming its not required by the Constitution, vide supra) is if they are going to regulate differently, because, e.g., the citizens of state X have different needs than citizens of state Y, or because X believes it has a better idea than Y and we want to let them all try their individual plans out, to see which is best (the "50 laboratories of democracy" concept).
But even if that could be argued to make some kind of sense for VHF and UHF, it makes no sense at all for HF and AM, where signals easily cross many states. The states could not, in practise, make different regulations for those parts of the spectrum without chaos resulting. So if the state must, as a practical matter, all regulate in the same way, what's the point? Why not just have the Feds do it? Why have 50 wasteful duplicative efforts that must reach the same result?
(And since we're signing our bona fides here, I have an Extra ticket, too.)
Also, in that sort of global catastrophe, what are the odds of finding an actual Ham, and what are the odds of there being somebody on the other end to respond? Sounds like a first-aid course might be a better investment....
I know my hypothetical situation is ridiculous. However, so is yours.
There is indeed a place for decentralized civilian and military communications. However, I think we can safely begin to move away from analogue amateur radio. (I'm not sure how decentralized it is, but Iridium also strikes me as being as robust as you could ever wish for)
However, to me, Hams always came across as a bunch of condescending nutters clutching on to a technological relic, with a side of cold-war paranoia. I'd love to be proven wrong, but statements like "who will save your ass when..." certainly don't help their case.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
And speaking of radio spectrum, anybody putting together a 100W or less VHF TV kit to roll out in Feb 2009?
That's an amusing idea. I could see the next wave of pirate TV taking the form of private "studio-to-transmitter links," where a simple, dirt-cheap transmitter is installed someplace in public where it can get electricity, like an office building roof or light pole. It would translate a lower-power 2.4 GHz signal down to the VHF or UHF TV band. When the FCC eventually tracks down the transmitter and puts it out of commission, they'll have no idea who owns it or controls it, and another one can be installed as soon as they leave.
Paging ladyada.net...
.. but when power goes out across an entire region (like it did with the Northeast blackouts a few years ago)
Surely that would solve the interference problem too?
...on that note, I'm wondering how many hams have an aggregate to power their equipment.
Show a man some news, distract him for an hour. Show a man some mod points, distract him for the rest of his life.
You should really try not to be so much of a jackass when talking about technologies about which you clearly have little to no understanding. Amateur radio operators have been for a very long time, continue to be, and will continue to be, absolutely indispensible in situations where regional communications failures have occurred.
Granted, in recent years, we have done a much better job re-installing other forms of radio comms in disaster areas, but amateur radio operators were still on the scene first, do it for free, and don't ask for anything more than a modicum of respect for their services.
73 DE K2TIV
Hey Colfer,
Are you near coleen or Arrington? The broadband study thing in the county continues forever, meanwhile a few of us have been experimenting with non line of sight wireless gear and microwave. I have a somewhat stable link about 7 miles from the access point. Email dhuggins at diversifiedexperts dot com if you want to give it a try. Correct the above email address obviously.
The CNET article used a wrong URL when linking to the decision by the appellate court. The domain name should be pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov. You can download the PDF of the opinion here.
We are talking about the 10-30 MHz spectrum, i.e. shortwave. Shortwaves have the unique capability of being reflected from the ionosphere, the very effect that made international communication possible on these frequencies. A faulty BPL installation in West Bumfuck, FarmLand can easily be heard all over bands all over the world given the right time.
While we are in the absolute minimum of the sunpot cycle these days, in another 2 or three years it will again be easy to communicate internationally with a couple of Watts and a piece of wire. And BPL in that sense would be an international disaster, at least for those ham radio operators who want to use the shortwave bands.
doesn't have to stretch at all. Wickard v. Filburn stretched it beyond measurement (or legitimacy).
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I am an amateur operator in the Northern Piedmont of North Carolina. Ham radio operators and the ARRL are not against BPL; what we are against is the blatant disregard for our service and others. Amateur radio is defined and protected under the Radio Act of 1927 as well as commercial, government, and maritime radio communications. To allow another source of radio transmission to harmfully interfere with another service will set a precedence. Since amateur radio is hardly in the limelight (but is typically on site in disaster/emergency situations providing communications for the public and government sectors) it is easiest to be picked upon. This world needs amateur radio and is often on the front line of fighting for the public's use of the airwaves by fighting for our own use of our defined radio schedule. The FCC must work with the BPL companies to find less harmful means of transmitting data over powerlines. The interference is apparent and many hams have gone out and demonstrated this in areas where BPL is being operated. The noise is obvious and detrimental to our communications, local, regional, and abroad. The highly qualified persons that work for the FCC (many of them amateur operators), ARRL, and the general ham public have lots of ideas and are often some of the smartest people around to work on these types of situations.
BPSK, from 31 Hz to 125 Hz wide. Yes, 31 Hz. You can squeeze 6 to 8 "conversations" in to the same bandwidth required for one voice conversation, using exactly the same radio and antenna system.
RTTY. Olivia. MFSK. Just to name a few.
Someday your ass might be saved in an emergency by a ham who is capable of getting a signal through when the communications infrastructure goes down. Any emergency that would take down our entire communications infrastructure would also seem likely to disable BPL. Problem solved.Also, in that sort of global catastrophe, what are the odds of finding an actual Ham, and what are the odds of there being somebody on the other end to respond? Sounds like a first-aid course might be a better investment....
More often than not, emergencies that take out communications are local in nature. Tornadoes and other wind storms, earthquakes or wild fires.
Hams step up and help with communications links in a lot of cases we don't hear about in the mainstream media.
Granted, we would use "local" frequencies such as VHF or UHF for these local links, so BPL noise wouldn't be as much of an issue, and as you note, the power's off over a wide area, anyway.
However, to me, Hams always came across as a bunch of condescending nutters clutching on to a technological relic, with a side of cold-war paranoia. I'd love to be proven wrong, but statements like "who will save your ass when..." certainly don't help their case.I see this, as well, and I'm a ham. The simple reality is that amateur radio can help, and even be a lifesaver, but mostly, even in widespread disasters like Katrina, provides health and welfare links rather than critical infrastructure. The "whackers" would have you believe otherwise.
When a tornado roars through, and all the power's out and cell (and POTS) phones don't work, of course a ham can hook up a 30 year old radio to a car batter that they find in a tree, use part of a fence for antenna and make a call for help to authorities outside the immediate area. Can't say I've heard of that happening, though... it's really a stretch.
73 de KN4DS
is quite clear - "The Congress shall have power . . . To regulate commerce ... among the several states"
That's "commerce," not things peripherally associated with commerce, not things which might have some disingenuous "effect" on commerce (i.e. growing crops in your own backyard, talking to a buddy over a walkie-talkie), but commerce itself. While the Federal government may have some right to regulate commercial speech between the states (and that is debatable - see 2nd Amendment), it has absolutely no authority for regulating private communications using the RF spectrum.
Courts be damned, just because they proclaim that red is green, that doesn't make it so. The Constitution is clear and unambiguous - "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That's something which the Federal courts have always ignored. We haven't been a nation of (legitimate) law for many years.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
1) There is a 250 Kilometer (155.3 mile) limit on Citizen Band Communications.(Title 47, Part 95.413(9))
2) Linears have never been leagal on CB.
3) Until 1958, the 11 Meter Band was assigned to Amateur Radio use. Eleven Meters was taken away for Class D Citizens Band.
The power lines of rural America are, in general, even worse than the awful phone and cable TV lines that were preventing customers there from having more traditional broadband service.
It shouldn't surprise anybody that a power infrastructure built to meet specs of '60Hz more or less, somewhere between 100 and 130VAC hopefully' would be under-engineered for reliable data transmission.
I have been arguing for years that the federal government should set up a bureaucracy to govern the flow of ip packets since they travel tubes in every state. It's only fair that the tube usage should be regulated by fair politicians instead of allowing greedy citizens (i.e. DMCA violators) to hog them. I am so glad you agree!
Why do you say "dead"? There are more amateur radio today than there ever were. Maybe as a percent of the population the numbers are down but the total number of people holding a license is growing
I think we are actually right at the beginning of another "golden era" of amateur home building and design. With thing like Software Defined Radio (SDR) and parts like FPGAs and low cost high speed analog to digital converters a new design space has opened up.
In my case, I've just got my car (battery/alternator) for backup power, but I've seen a few stations with dedicated generators. In the realm of emergency communication, most of the check-ins I hear on the weekly Houghton Co, MI net are on "emergency power" (battery/generator) just to make sure everything's working right, and IIRC the Lake Co, IL EOC has its own backup generators.
73 de KD0AMG
"The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
That's fine. I actually support y'all in these cases.
However, the Hams seem like a sort of pesky special interest group that used to be a whole lot more relevant than they are now.
Why can't we work together to develop some new standards for a robust civilian radio network that uses less bandwidth and isn't as prone to interference?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
I'm a ham, so I hear plenty of ham activity on shortwave. However, the shortwave bands make up a small part of shortwave.
HF (aka shortwave) makes up 1.8MHz to 30MHz. Have a look at this chart to see what parts are ham. It's not that much.
It'll solve the interference problem, but if BPL noise is the normal state of things, you won't have many hams left.
Good point.
In my case, I've just got my car (battery/alternator) for backup power, but I've seen a few stations with dedicated generators. In the realm of emergency communication, most of the check-ins I hear on the weekly Houghton Co, MI net are on "emergency power" (battery/generator) just to make sure everything's working right, and IIRC the Lake Co, IL EOC has its own backup generators.
Yep, that emphasizes as well that you need to get rid of the interference to be able to test.
Show a man some news, distract him for an hour. Show a man some mod points, distract him for the rest of his life.